Cool :cool:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2012/04/120413-nasa-viking-program-mars-life-space-science/
QuoteLife on Mars Found by NASA's Viking Mission?
New analysis suggests robots discovered microbes in 1976.
Ker Than
for National Geographic News
Published April 13, 2012
A fresh look at NASA data suggests that a robotic mission uncovered microbial life on Mars—more than 30 years ago.
In 1976 NASA sent two space probes, Vikings 1 and 2, to Mars to determine whether life exists on the red planet. The probes carried three experiments specially designed for the task, one of which was called the Labeled Release (LR) apparatus.
The LR experiment worked by scooping up a bit of Martian soil and mixing it with a drop of water that contained nutrients and radioactive carbon atoms.
(Related: "Mars Soil Resembles Veggie-Garden Dirt, Lander Finds.")
The idea was that if the soil contained microbes, the life-forms would metabolize the nutrients and release either radioactive carbon dioxide or methane gas, which could be measured by a radiation detector on the probe.
A number of control experiments were also performed, including heating some Mars soil samples to different temperatures and isolating other samples in the dark for months—conditions that would kill microbes that are photosynthetic or that rely on photosynthetic organisms for survival. These control samples were also mixed with the nutrient solution.
To the delight of many biologists at the time, the LR experiment came out positive for life, and the control experiments came out negative.
"The minute the nutrients were mixed with the soil sample, you got something like 10,000 counts" of radioactive molecules—a huge spike from the 50 or 60 counts that constituted the natural background radiation on Mars, said study team member Joseph Miller, a neurobiologist at the University of Southern California and a former NASA space shuttle project director.
Unfortunately, the LR experiment results were not backed up by the probes' other two experiments, both of which came out negative for life, so the space agency dismissed the possibility.
(Related: "Viking Mission May Have Missed Mars Life, Study Finds.")
Now, after running Viking's LR data through a mathematical test designed to separate biological signals from nonbiological signals, Miller's team believes that the LR experiments did indeed find signs of microbial life in Martian soil.
"It's very possible that if you have microbes, they're living a couple of inches beneath the soil, close to water ice," he said.
Clustering Viking's Mars Data
For the study, Miller and mathematician Giorgio Bianciardi, of Italy's University of Siena, used a technique called cluster analysis, which groups together similar-looking data sets.
"We just plugged all the [Viking experimental and control] data in and said, Let the cluster analysis sort it," Miller said. "What happened was, we found two clusters: One cluster constituted the two active experiments on Viking and the other cluster was the five control experiments."
To bolster their case, the team also compared the Viking data to measurements collected from confirmed biological sources on Earth—for example, temperature readings from a rat—and from purely physical, nonbiological sources.
"It turned out that all the biological experiments from Earth sorted with the active experiments from Viking, and all the nonbiological data series sorted with the control experiments," Miller said. "It was an extremely clear-cut phenomenon."
(Related: "Life on Mars? 'Missing Mineral' Find Boosts Chances.")
The team concedes, however, that this finding by itself isn't enough to prove that there's life on Mars.
"It just says there's a big difference between the active experiments and the controls, and that Viking's active experiments sorted with terrestrial biology and the controls sorted with nonbiological phenomena," Miller said.
Evidence for Martian Rhythm
Still, the new findings are consistent with a previous study published by Miller, in which his team found signs of a Martian circadian rhythm in the Viking LR experiment results.
Circadian rhythms are internal clocks found in every known life-form—including microbes—that help control biological processes, such as waking, sleeping, and temperature regulation. (See "Sleep Preferences Predict Baseball Success, Study Says.")
On Earth this clock is set to a 24-hour cycle, but on Mars it would be about 24.7 hours—the length of a Martian day.
In his previous work, Miller noticed that the LR experiment's radiation measurements varied with the time of day on Mars.
"If you look closely, you could see that the [radioactive-gas measurement] was going up during the day and coming down at night. ... The oscillations had a period of 24.66 hours just about on the nose," Miller said.
"That is basically a circadian rhythm, and we think circadian rhythms are a good signal for life."
Waiting for the Video
Despite his own conviction that the Viking mission detected life on Mars, Miller said he doesn't expect most people will be convinced until they can look at a video of Martian bacteria sitting in a petri dish.
"But for some reason, NASA has never flown a microscope that would let you do something like that," he said. "If they can fly a microscope for the geologists, they should be able to fly one for the biologists."
NASA's next Martian mission—the Mars Science Laboratory, aka Curiosity—will arrive on the red planet later this year. Although it's not carrying such a microscope, Miller thinks the lander could find supporting evidence for his team's theory.
(Related: "Next Mars Rover Landing Site Named: Gale Crater.")
"It won't test the hypothesis [for life on Mars] directly, but I think they'll be able to detect methane," Miller said. "And if they see a circadian rhythm in the methane release into the atmosphere, it would be very consistent with what we saw."
The new Mars-life research is detailed online in the International Journal of Aeronautical and Space Sciences.
Ker Than? Wasn't he the bad guy in John Carter?
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 14, 2012, 11:57:40 PM
Cool :cool:
You know, Mars having indigenous bacteria may prove a major obstacle for the eventual colonization attempts. :hmm:
Ask for canal.
I guess Disney are doing what they can to sell that flop of theirs...
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 15, 2012, 01:22:16 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 14, 2012, 11:57:40 PM
Cool :cool:
You know, Mars having indigenous bacteria may prove a major obstacle for the eventual colonization attempts. :hmm:
Especially if they eat humans.
QuoteA fresh look at NASA data suggests that a robotic mission uncovered microbial life on Mars—more than 30 years ago.
:bleeding:
Next they'll try to convice us that humans landed on the moon.
I would not be surprised if ALL planets had microbiological lifeforms of some sort.
Yeah, part of me thinks that most likely, given all the ridiculous places we've found microbial life surviving on earth (including deep rock deposits with no oxygen) it wouldn't blow my socks off to know factually that Mars has microbial life.
However, the method used here, while it makes sense to us laymen, has not actually been conclusively proven to work to prove the presence of life in tests here on Earth. So I think until the technique can actually be shown to be reliable here on Earth it's a bit questionable to hold it up as definitive proof of life on mars.
Quote from: Tonitrus on April 15, 2012, 02:18:41 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 15, 2012, 01:22:16 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 14, 2012, 11:57:40 PM
Cool :cool:
You know, Mars having indigenous bacteria may prove a major obstacle for the eventual colonization attempts. :hmm:
Especially if they eat humans.
Indeed:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.the-medium-is-not-enough.com%2Fimages%2FAndromedaStrainScience.jpg&hash=ff3c08f54be66d93a727f8a7ddbe673714fa3d29)
Well, looks like we'll have to go to Mars to find out for sure if life is there or not. Just get in a damn ship and go! How hard could it be? Just do it! :)
To me it seems like it's far more likely there was contamination by Earth based microbes.
Quote from: Fate on April 15, 2012, 10:56:30 PM
To me it seems like it's far more likely there was contamination by Earth based microbes.
That would certainly explain the 24.7 hour cycadian rhythm....
If true, this is not good because:
-if life is so fuckin' abundant that we just randomly stumble upon it on the neighboring planet, where are the Vulcans? Where is my replicator FFS?!! Bad-bad news for our chances of stumbling upon an über alien civilization who would let us get by without working or learning to live together on the planet.
-we should eventually terraform Mars (hell, why don't they start right now, it will take some godawful much time), and if it's full of unique snowflake microbes, The Public will not let it be done ("OMG think of all the bacteria!!!!")
Quote from: Tamas on April 16, 2012, 02:09:13 AM
If true, this is not good because:
-if life is so fuckin' abundant that we just randomly stumble upon it on the neighboring planet, where are the Vulcans? Where is my replicator FFS?!! Bad-bad news for our chances of stumbling upon an über alien civilization who would let us get by without working or learning to live together on the planet.
ET intelligence has a much greater potential to be harmful than helpful.
Quote
-we should eventually terraform Mars (hell, why don't they start right now, it will take some godawful much time), and if it's full of unique snowflake microbes, The Public will not let it be done ("OMG think of all the bacteria!!!!")
Most people won't care. The ones who do care won't be able to stop it.
The more realistic problem is if the microbes are harmful to humans.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 16, 2012, 02:39:52 AM
ET intelligence has a much greater potential to be harmful than helpful.
Disagree to the highest degree.
Hostile aliens are closer to impossible than likely imo.
As to where are the aliens...just because life is common (assuming it is) doesn't mean intelligence is. Just look how long it was before humans somehow managed to appear. And then how long it took us to to team up with the dogs and figure out the whole idea of civilization.
Quote
-we should eventually terraform Mars (hell, why don't they start right now, it will take some godawful much time), and if it's full of unique snowflake microbes, The Public will not let it be done ("OMG think of all the bacteria!!!!")
Agreed, that sucks. But...if life is absolutely everywhere then the significance of Martian bacteria will drop off. I'd think practical thinking would throw them into a few national parks.
And hey. This must be pretty hardy life. What is to say it can't co-exist with earth-life? Might it not thrive given better conditions?
Heck. We're talking far future stuff here. Might we not evolve it a bit into forms that are useful to us.
I was kidding on intelligent aliens of course.
It is my theory that the odds of them being hostile are pretty big.
Mostly because I think, for advancement you need Earth-like competition in evolution, and also the agression-driven competition within our own species. Hippies do not build stuff.
Quote from: Tamas on April 16, 2012, 03:57:12 AM
I was kidding on intelligent aliens of course.
It is my theory that the odds of them being hostile are pretty big.
Mostly because I think, for advancement you need Earth-like competition in evolution, and also the agression-driven competition within our own species. Hippies do not build stuff.
Hostile aliens with the power to travel between the stars would have long since wiped themselves out.
If humanity today with all of our problems and conflicts were to somehow get out into space and discover aliens we wouldn't invade. And even peaceful little us came pretty close to killing off our civilization.
Quote from: Tyr on April 16, 2012, 03:43:37 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 16, 2012, 02:39:52 AM
ET intelligence has a much greater potential to be harmful than helpful.
Disagree to the highest degree.
Hostile aliens are closer to impossible than likely imo.
Even if aliens had only a 1% chance of being hostile we're talking destruction vs. getting a few techs a little sooner. It's not a good gamble.
Quote from: Tyr on April 16, 2012, 04:21:45 AM
Quote from: Tamas on April 16, 2012, 03:57:12 AM
I was kidding on intelligent aliens of course.
It is my theory that the odds of them being hostile are pretty big.
Mostly because I think, for advancement you need Earth-like competition in evolution, and also the agression-driven competition within our own species. Hippies do not build stuff.
Hostile aliens with the power to travel between the stars would have long since wiped themselves out.
If humanity today with all of our problems and conflicts were to somehow get out into space and discover aliens we wouldn't invade. And even peaceful little us came pretty close to killing off our civilization.
This is not simply a matter of flat-out invasion and genocide. Look at the american natives accross the continent. We would be the aztecs, and the aliens are the white men (they might have a slave race to fill in for the black slave labor)
I'm not sure there's much point for organic slave labor for a star-faring civilization.
The idea that aliens would be peaceful "because otherwise they would have wiped themselves out", is just laughable. Even if we had a full scale nuclear war here on Earth, a few of us would survive. Civilization might collapse, but humanity would likely still be kicking around. And those survivors would breed and multiply and build a new civilization (which might also destroy itself again). I think it would take a lot to destroy the whole human species.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 16, 2012, 07:21:40 AM
I'm not sure there's much point for organic slave labor for a star-faring civilization.
I was joking, goddamit
Quote from: Razgovory on April 16, 2012, 07:28:46 AM
The idea that aliens would be peaceful "because otherwise they would have wiped themselves out", is just laughable. Even if we had a full scale nuclear war here on Earth, a few of us would survive. Civilization might collapse, but humanity would likely still be kicking around. And those survivors would breed and multiply and build a new civilization (which might also destroy itself again). I think it would take a lot to destroy the whole human species.
Doubt they'd be able to get into space after wiping their civilization out though. And if they haven't changed whats to stop them just doing it again.
We keep savagly killing each other and exploiting everything there is to exploit, while constantly growing in population, level of advance, and energy reserves to tap from the planet. Granted, with a few dark ages here and there, but there is no sign pointing to our dissappearance as a species.
Quote from: Tamas on April 16, 2012, 08:08:21 AM
We keep savagly killing each other and exploiting everything there is to exploit, while constantly growing in population, level of advance, and energy reserves to tap from the planet. Granted, with a few dark ages here and there, but there is no sign pointing to our dissappearance as a species.
We've came bloody close even despite being a peaceful species.
Imagine the typical aliens from alien invasion sillyness where Hitler would be counted as a hippy and...the outlook is not good.
Also, fighting over resources in space is just insane. Even if we're in the star trek universe with sentient species in every other system there's still a lot of space out there
Quote from: Tyr on April 16, 2012, 08:11:11 AM
We've came bloody close even despite being a peaceful species.
When was this?
Quote from: Razgovory on April 16, 2012, 07:28:46 AM
The idea that aliens would be peaceful "because otherwise they would have wiped themselves out", is just laughable. Even if we had a full scale nuclear war here on Earth, a few of us would survive. Civilization might collapse, but humanity would likely still be kicking around. And those survivors would breed and multiply and build a new civilization (which might also destroy itself again). I think it would take a lot to destroy the whole human species.
Yeah, but we don't do interstellar space travel. And because the technologies of space travel would make it trivially easy to wipe out all life on a planet, the aliens have clearly found a way to not be wiped out.
Besides, once a high technology species falls back to pre- or early industrial technology, they can't recover on their own. How would they get energy?
Quote from: Tyr on April 16, 2012, 08:11:11 AM
We've came bloody close even despite being a peaceful species.
LOL and LOL.
Quote from: Neil on April 16, 2012, 08:46:07 AM
Besides, once a high technology species falls back to pre- or early industrial technology, they can't recover on their own. How would they get energy?
From their star. :contract:
There's no reason the second industrial revolution has to take place as quickly as the first one.
Quote from: Tyr on April 16, 2012, 08:11:11 AM
Quote from: Tamas on April 16, 2012, 08:08:21 AM
We keep savagly killing each other and exploiting everything there is to exploit, while constantly growing in population, level of advance, and energy reserves to tap from the planet. Granted, with a few dark ages here and there, but there is no sign pointing to our dissappearance as a species.
We've came bloody close even despite being a peaceful species.
Imagine the typical aliens from alien invasion sillyness where Hitler would be counted as a hippy and...the outlook is not good.
Also, fighting over resources in space is just insane. Even if we're in the star trek universe with sentient species in every other system there's still a lot of space out there
We came close to setting us back several hundred years, yes, MAYBE, in 1962.
Otherwise, we are anything but a peaceful species. We are chimpanzees in pants.
QuoteWe came close to setting us back several hundred years, yes, MAYBE, in 1962.
Otherwise, we are anything but a peaceful species. We are chimpanzees in pants.
Of course we're a peaceful species.
That isn't to say we're entirely peaceful of course, we are still animals. As South Africa passes for a rich African country however humanity is a peaceful animal.
Still a lot of core animalistic behaviour in there but hell, one use of the very word humanity is about not behaving according to base urges.
I'm so sick of the hippy crap about humans being especially violent and nasty when its the animals that are the bad ones.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 16, 2012, 08:39:21 AM
Quote from: Tyr on April 16, 2012, 08:11:11 AM
We've came bloody close even despite being a peaceful species.
When was this?
The cold war.
Quote from: Tamas on April 16, 2012, 09:24:52 AM
Otherwise, we are anything but a peaceful species. We are chimpanzees in pants.
Hardly.
Quote from: Tyr on April 16, 2012, 09:43:50 AM
The cold war.
That's not close. We didn't even kill a hundred million people during that. It would take a lot to kill off humanity. We don't really have the technology to do so now.
Yeah, plus even if the US and Russia nuked each other several times over there'd be little damage done to South America or Africa.
Quote from: Tyr on April 16, 2012, 04:21:45 AM
If humanity today with all of our problems and conflicts were to somehow get out into space and discover aliens we wouldn't invade.
You are not basing this on past experience of humans encountering other humans who were technologically less advanced so I wonder what is it that draws you to this conclusion?
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 17, 2012, 02:18:22 PM
Quote from: Tyr on April 16, 2012, 04:21:45 AM
If humanity today with all of our problems and conflicts were to somehow get out into space and discover aliens we wouldn't invade.
You are not basing this on past experience of humans encountering other humans who were technologically less advanced so I wonder what is it that draws you to this conclusion?
We wouldn't invade, exactly - we'd get those aliens hooked on booze or drugs, "buy" bits of alien real estate for beads and trinkets, and on those patches set up the alien equivalent of McDonalds franchises while flooding their airwaves with crappy soap operas and Japanese game shows.
Before long, the alien planet would hum with human commerce while the original aliens begged in the gutters, or get hearded onto slummy reservations.
In short, we would not engage in a bloody orgy orgy of genocide ... we'd think of something worse. :D
The real test would be how we respond when they kill off the first wave of settlers.
Quote from: Malthus on April 17, 2012, 03:13:48 PM
In short, we would not engage in a bloody orgy orgy of genocide ... we'd think of something worse. :D
:lol:
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 16, 2012, 08:56:39 AM
Quote from: Neil on April 16, 2012, 08:46:07 AM
Besides, once a high technology species falls back to pre- or early industrial technology, they can't recover on their own. How would they get energy?
From their star. :contract:
There's no reason the second industrial revolution has to take place as quickly as the first one.
Unfortunately, the radiant energy of the star generally proves too difficult to capture and use.