http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displayStory.cfm?story_id=13579124&source=hptextfeature
QuoteThe Roma in eastern Europe
Canada home and dry
Apr 30th 2009 | PRAGUE
From The Economist print edition
How Roma fleeing persecution win asylum in Canada
EMIGRATION to Canada was a well-trodden road for dissidents after the Soviet-led invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1968. It is 20 years since the country's leaden communist regime perished in the velvet revolution. The Czech Republic is a regional success story. Yet rising numbers of Roma (gypsy) citizens are making the same journey to the same faraway country, because life at home is intolerable.
Around 250,000 Roma live in the Czech Republic. Their problems include poverty, lack of education, centuries of prejudice and, now, attacks by far-right extremists. According to the Canadian embassy in Prague, 861 Czechs applied for asylum in Canada in 2008, and 84 won it. Canada does not record their ethnic origin, but officials say most were Roma. That exceeds figures from countries such as Afghanistan (488 applicants) and Iraq (282). For communist Cuba, much scolded by the Czech government for its poor human-rights record, the figures were 184 applicants and 93 given asylum. The numbers for the first quarter of 2009 are even more startling: 653 applications, of which 34 were granted.
Admittedly, getting to Canada is easier for the Czech Roma than for Afghans or Iraqis (in October 2007 the Canadians lifted visa requirements for Czechs that had been imposed ten years earlier after a previous Roma exodus). But the figures are also higher than from other ex-communist countries with large Roma populations and visa-free travel to Canada. Last year only 288 Hungarians made applications, with 22 granted.
Some Canadian officials say asylum has become a business, with middlemen charging Roma to arrange it. But nobody has produced evidence of this, and the Czech authorities say they have seen no sign. Anna Polakova, who heads Romani-language public broadcasting in Prague, says the claims are absurd. She also questions the idea that Roma asylum applicants are motivated by Canadian welfare payments. "Even if you have little, your family has been here for two, three generations. You know the language. We have our graves here," she says. In her view, it is middle-class Roma who are leaving in frustration. "Despite all the talk, the fascists are walking down the street." She herself considered emigration after her son was badly beaten up by skinheads.
The Czech record is no source of pride. Not only has far-right extremism been rising, but so also is segregation. A government study in 2006 found that 80,000 Roma live in over 300 ghetto-like communities, four-fifths of which came into existence only in the previous decade. Roma activists blame Jiri Cunek, a Christian Democratic leader and former deputy prime minister, for making anti-Roma prejudice acceptable in mainstream politics. A mayor of Vsetin in the east, Mr Cunek ordered the eviction of dozens of Roma families from a run-down building in the town centre into containers on its edge.
Recently police blocked a confrontation between Roma activists and a neo-Nazi march in Krupka, in the north-west. Last November a similar event in Litvinov, in the north, turned into a riot, with police fighting 500 right-wingers trying to get to a Roma neighbourhood blamed as a hotbed of crime. A firebomb attack on a Roma dwelling in Vitkov, one of three in recent months, badly burnt a 22-month-old girl.
Roma are suffering in many other countries in the region. Hungary has witnessed a spate of especially nasty murders. But the rich, well-governed Czech Republic, which holds the European Union's rotating presidency, can surely do better.
Since you're too lazy to apply for an American visa, just go to Canada and claim asylum. I'm sure there are nice swamps in Canada too. :)
Been there, done that. Bad idea.
Quote from: Monoriu on May 04, 2009, 10:24:01 PM
Been there, done that. Bad idea.
Why don't you like Canada? :(
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Why don't you like Canada? :(
If I chose to stay in Canada, I would be chopping salmon heads somewhere.
Quote from: Monoriu on May 04, 2009, 11:26:37 PM
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Why don't you like Canada? :(
If I chose to stay in Canada, I would be chopping salmon heads somewhere.
:rolleyes:
Quote from: Monoriu on May 04, 2009, 11:26:37 PM
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Why don't you like Canada? :(
If I chose to stay in Canada, I would be chopping salmon heads somewhere.
You can always join the canadian military and go to afghanistan and claim 2400 meters kills, never mind that you used a .338 sub-minute of an angle gun, and hit the fucker only with your third shot. Three shots one kill. The question is why in hell that loser stayed in there and didn't run for cover after the first shot.
I guess that's what happen at those distances. A bullet hits somewhere around you and its already subsonic, sounding like if someone is throwing rocks at you in a 45 degree angle, and no gunshot sound or supersonic crack whatsoever.
Quote from: Monoriu on May 04, 2009, 11:26:37 PMIf I chose to stay in Canada, I would be chopping salmon heads somewhere.
Zoupa and Jacob are immigrants in Canada and they are doing fine jobwise as far as I can tell.
Quote from: Zanza2 on May 05, 2009, 12:27:27 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on May 04, 2009, 11:26:37 PMIf I chose to stay in Canada, I would be chopping salmon heads somewhere.
Zoupa and Jacob are immigrants in Canada and they are doing fine jobwise as far as I can tell.
That's because they're white. :(
Monoriu and Tamas would have to take coloured people jobs.
Quote from: Siege on May 05, 2009, 12:13:56 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on May 04, 2009, 11:26:37 PM
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Why don't you like Canada? :(
If I chose to stay in Canada, I would be chopping salmon heads somewhere.
You can always join the canadian military and go to afghanistan and claim 2400 meters kills, never mind that you used a .338 sub-minute of an angle gun, and hit the fucker only with your third shot. Three shots one kill. The question is why in hell that loser stayed in there and didn't run for cover after the first shot.
I guess that's what happen at those distances. A bullet hits somewhere around you and its already subsonic, sounding like if someone is throwing rocks at you in a 45 degree angle, and no gunshot sound or supersonic crack whatsoever.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVESMxs4rbA
Quote from: Zanza2 on May 05, 2009, 12:27:27 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on May 04, 2009, 11:26:37 PMIf I chose to stay in Canada, I would be chopping salmon heads somewhere.
Zoupa and Jacob are immigrants in Canada and they are doing fine jobwise as far as I can tell.
Yeah. 47% of Toronto was born outside of Canada and it's 40% for Vancouver. I think Canada's relatively open to immigrants :wub:
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Yeah. 47% of Toronto was born outside of Canada and it's 40% for Vancouver. I think Canada's relatively open to immigrants :wub:
A significant chunk of those come from Hong Kong. The consensus among those of us who have been there is that Canada is a good place to live, but a terrible place to build a career.
Quote from: Monoriu on May 05, 2009, 01:18:57 AM
but a terrible place to build a career.
Oh yeah, you seem to be climbing up the ladder in Hong Kong.
Quote from: garbon on May 05, 2009, 01:33:23 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on May 05, 2009, 01:18:57 AM
but a terrible place to build a career.
Oh yeah, you seem to be climbing up the ladder in Hong Kong.
:blush:
Why would HK be a better place to make a career than a big Canadian city anyway? I bet even a civil service job in Canada would be better than yours. :P
Quote from: garbon on May 05, 2009, 01:33:23 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on May 05, 2009, 01:18:57 AM
but a terrible place to build a career.
Oh yeah, you seem to be climbing up the ladder in Hong Kong.
:face:
And FB, you redneck fuck, I ain't no gypsy. Besides, this is an old story. Hungarian gypsies had the legend for a while that Canadian welfare is much more substantial than Hungarian one, so tried to mass-flock into Canada. The first arrivals figured the legend was wrong, and most of them returned.
The same thing happened with France and Sweden as well.
Quote from: Zanza2 on May 05, 2009, 03:38:45 AM
Why would HK be a better place to make a career than a big Canadian city anyway? I bet even a civil service job in Canada would be better than yours. :P
For a fresh graduate, Hong Kong is infinitely better. Employers typically hire everybody in sight. It is very common for large firms to hire a 21 year old fresh out of university with no work experience whatsoever and give him a management trainee position. They won't require references (most graduates won't have them anyway). Instead, firms design elaborate interview and examination processes to screen candidates.
For a middle manager/professional with 10-20 years of experience working in Hong Kong, he cannot transfer his skills and experience to Canada. There is absolutely no way Canadian firms can match his Hong Kong salary (which could be very high). Canadian firms typically demand local experience, local networks and local qualifications.
I think the problem is that the mass exodus of Hong Kongers to Canada during the 80s and 90s was very atypical. A lot of immigrants from other places have nothing and therefore can start from scratch easily. The ones from Hong Kong however were typically the cream of the crop of their home country. Imagine an accountant who made mountains of cash in Hong Kong and expected to achieve the same in Canada overnight. Not going to happen.
Quote from: Siege on May 05, 2009, 12:13:56 AM
You can always join the canadian military and go to afghanistan and claim 2400 meters kills, never mind that you used a .338 sub-minute of an angle gun, and hit the fucker only with your third shot. Three shots one kill. The question is why in hell that loser stayed in there and didn't run for cover after the first shot.
I guess that's what happen at those distances. A bullet hits somewhere around you and its already subsonic, sounding like if someone is throwing rocks at you in a 45 degree angle, and no gunshot sound or supersonic crack whatsoever.
You need to focus more.
Quote from: Monoriu on May 05, 2009, 04:27:38 AMFor a fresh graduate, Hong Kong is infinitely better. Employers typically hire everybody in sight. It is very common for large firms to hire a 21 year old fresh out of university with no work experience whatsoever and give him a management trainee position. They won't require references (most graduates won't have them anyway). Instead, firms design elaborate interview and examination processes to screen candidates.
Two points: First, we are talking about a career. A career does not stop with getting hired. You actually have to advance eventually. Which I imagine is as hard in Hong Kong as in Canada. Perhaps even harder as I could imagine there are steeper hierarchies in Hong Kong. Second, graduates with no experience must be hired in Canada too. After all, someone eventually has to hire a graduate or the economy will quickly run out of employees. :p Even if the job advert says they want someone with 2 years experience, they will still hire a graduate if they can't get someone with experience. And I am sure that there are plenty of management trainee programs for graduates in Canada too.
I think you are trying to rationalize your decision based on career chances, when you actually just went back because Hong Kong is your home. Which is a perfectly fine reason in itself.
QuoteFor a middle manager/professional with 10-20 years of experience working in Hong Kong, he cannot transfer his skills and experience to Canada.
Why not? I know managers and professionals who went from Germany to all over the world (including Hong Kong and Canada) and they could transfer their skills.
QuoteThere is absolutely no way Canadian firms can match his Hong Kong salary (which could be very high).
Why not? Canada is a richer country than Hong Kong. Why shouldn't they be able to match the salary? Because of that marginal tax rate you always speak of? Canada probably has much cheaper housing and a higher life quality so that levels out.
I've been looking up a few figures on Hong Kong, the average wage seems to be about £1,000 per month ($HK 11,000) and the GDP per capita using market prices is about $US 32,000.
Meanwhile the average wage in the UK is just over £2,000 per month and the GDP per capita using market prices is about $US 35,000.
So, the two economies are much on a par for wealth generated per person; but there is an interesting discrepancy in workers pay rates.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on May 05, 2009, 04:43:34 AM
I've been looking up a few figures on Hong Kong, the average wage seems to be about £1,000 per month ($HK 11,000) and the GDP per capita using market prices is about $US 32,000.
Meanwhile the average wage in the UK is just over £2,000 per month and the GDP per capita using market prices is about $US 35,000.
So, the two economies are much on a par for wealth generated per person; but there is an interesting discrepancy in workers pay rates.
So that means the average person that doesn't make a great career (e.g. Mono) loses out by living in Hong Kong compared to average person s in the UK (and probably Canada).
My sense is that the wage structure in Hong Kong is very different from the one in the UK or Canada. In Hong Kong, 50-60% of the working population make absolutely crap wages. A full time janitor who works his ass off can make as little as US$6k per year. A construction worker will be lucky to double that.
But the rest can make huge sums by western standards. The average wage figure distorts the real picture.
QuoteTwo points: First, we are talking about a career. A career does not stop with getting hired. You actually have to advance eventually. Which I imagine is as hard in Hong Kong as in Canada. Perhaps even harder as I could imagine there are steeper hierarchies in Hong Kong. Second, graduates with no experience must be hired in Canada too. After all, someone eventually has to hire a graduate or the economy will quickly run out of employees. :p Even if the job advert says they want someone with 2 years experience, they will still hire a graduate if they can't get someone with experience. And I am sure that there are plenty of management trainee programs for graduates in Canada too.
The management trainee programmes in Canada typically cater to the guys in their mid/late 20s with some experience, be it part time job, volunteering, world tour or what not. Not 21 year olds with absolutely nothing.
QuoteWhy not? I know managers and professionals who went from Germany to all over the world (including Hong Kong and Canada) and they could transfer their skills.
I think we are talking about two different situations. It is easy to move to another country if your employer sends you there. It is a totally different story to quit the job, move to another country, and seek employment in a totally different environment.
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Why not? Canada is a richer country than Hong Kong. Why shouldn't they be able to match the salary? Because of that marginal tax rate you always speak of? Canada probably has much cheaper housing and a higher life quality so that levels out.
As I said, Canadian firms expect local experience, local qualifications and local contacts. Whatever happens in HK is usually not relevant.
It's all your fault because you were an asocial asshole when you where here.
Shoulda have made some friends.
My work place has a lot of Indian engineers, they're not white, they make good money.
Quote from: Monoriu on May 05, 2009, 04:57:52 AM
QuoteTwo points: First, we are talking about a career. A career does not stop with getting hired. You actually have to advance eventually. Which I imagine is as hard in Hong Kong as in Canada. Perhaps even harder as I could imagine there are steeper hierarchies in Hong Kong. Second, graduates with no experience must be hired in Canada too. After all, someone eventually has to hire a graduate or the economy will quickly run out of employees. :p Even if the job advert says they want someone with 2 years experience, they will still hire a graduate if they can't get someone with experience. And I am sure that there are plenty of management trainee programs for graduates in Canada too.
The management trainee programmes in Canada typically cater to the guys in their mid/late 20s with some experience, be it part time job, volunteering, world tour or what not. Not 21 year olds with absolutely nothing.
QuoteWhy not? I know managers and professionals who went from Germany to all over the world (including Hong Kong and Canada) and they could transfer their skills.
I think we are talking about two different situations. It is easy to move to another country if your employer sends you there. It is a totally different story to quit the job, move to another country, and seek employment in a totally different environment.
Quote
Why not? Canada is a richer country than Hong Kong. Why shouldn't they be able to match the salary? Because of that marginal tax rate you always speak of? Canada probably has much cheaper housing and a higher life quality so that levels out.
As I said, Canadian firms expect local experience, local qualifications and local contacts. Whatever happens in HK is usually not relevant.
So, Mono, how are you doing in your top management position in HK then?
Quote from: The Larch on May 05, 2009, 08:19:37 AM
So, Mono, how are you doing in your top management position in HK then?
He's seems to be doing well enough to travel all over the world whenever he wants, and thinks nothing of jetting off to Japan for a weekend so his wife can rent a car and play at driving.
Quote from: Monoriu on May 04, 2009, 11:26:37 PM
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Why don't you like Canada? :(
If I chose to stay in Canada, I would be chopping salmon heads somewhere.
Had you moved to the other coast you could be clubbing baby harp seals instead. :Canuck:
Quote from: DisturbedPervert on May 05, 2009, 08:26:25 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 05, 2009, 08:19:37 AM
So, Mono, how are you doing in your top management position in HK then?
He's seems to be doing well enough to travel all over the world whenever he wants, and thinks nothing of jetting off to Japan for a weekend so his wife can rent a car and play at driving.
Yes, note how he frequents first-class restaurants as well; and then tries to cover that up by hyping how ordered tap water :huh:
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on May 05, 2009, 09:05:35 AM
Quote from: DisturbedPervert on May 05, 2009, 08:26:25 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 05, 2009, 08:19:37 AM
So, Mono, how are you doing in your top management position in HK then?
He's seems to be doing well enough to travel all over the world whenever he wants, and thinks nothing of jetting off to Japan for a weekend so his wife can rent a car and play at driving.
Yes, note how he frequents first-class restaurants as well; and then tries to cover that up by hyping how ordered tap water :huh:
I was not talking about money, but about career advancement. :P
Meh, I moved from being a pottery assistant to lawyer by way of a BA in anthropology. Obviously it is possible to make a good wage in Canada without a ton of relevant focus and experience! :lol:
Quote from: Malthus on May 05, 2009, 09:12:56 AM
Meh, I moved from being a pottery assistant to lawyer by way of a BA in anthropology. Obviously it is possible to make a good wage in Canada without a ton of relevant focus and experience! :lol:
:rolleyes: Not everyone has your secret jewish connections...
Quote from: PDH on May 05, 2009, 09:37:20 AM
:rolleyes: Not everyone has your secret jewish connections...
Not even me. :(
If Mono is "General Disciplined Services (Rank and File)" he earns between US-$1680 and $3764 per month. If he is "General Disciplined Services (Officer)" he earns between $2115 and $12505 per month. Even when you consider Hong Kong's very low taxes, I am sure you can earn similar amounts in Canada.
http://www.csb.gov.hk/english/admin/pay/952.html
So you say, I am on to you - BAs in Anthropology only are allowed to work at Starbucks...
Quote from: PDH on May 05, 2009, 09:49:00 AM
So you say, I am on to you - BAs in Anthropology only are allowed to work at Starbucks...
Naw, the Philosophy majors cut them out of that market. In Canada, they must work at Tim Horton's.
Quote from: Monoriu on May 05, 2009, 04:50:02 AM
My sense is that the wage structure in Hong Kong is very different from the one in the UK or Canada. In Hong Kong, 50-60% of the working population make absolutely crap wages. A full time janitor who works his ass off can make as little as US$6k per year. A construction worker will be lucky to double that.
But the rest can make huge sums by western standards. The average wage figure distorts the real picture.
Employers abusing that kind of pay is exactly why we have a minimum wage here in the US, Mono. And I'm sorry, but a 50-50 chance of earning so little pay as to be abusive by the employer just doesn't sound like that safe a bet.