Bo Xilai, who could plausibly be argued to be the single most dangerous man in the world, appears to be done for good.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/16/world/asia/florcruz-xilai-china/index.html
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on March 16, 2012, 09:44:54 AMwho could plausibly be argued to be the single most dangerous man in the world,
How so? Something to do with "singing red"?
Yeah I did not get what he is the 'most dangerous man in the world' (stay deadly my friends) from that article.
I mean besides the fact that cracking down on corrupt Chinese officials might just lead to a bloodbath that dwarfs the Holocaust.
I asked my girlfriend about Bo, and she likes him and thinks he has good policies, although she didn't elaborate on what, exactly, she likes about them.
I'm a bit worried about her now, to be honest. :unsure:
Quote from: Valmy on March 16, 2012, 10:00:22 AM
Yeah I did not get what he is the 'most dangerous man in the world' (stay deadly my friends) from that article.
Maybe a bit over the top. But he's a bit of a populist who was building a local personality cult and bringing back lots of old Maoist traditions. He could have been dangerous on the politburo for China and the world.
I think there was suggestions things were turning against him when Wen Jiabao made pointed anti-cultural revolution remarks earlier this week. Though he also made really open remarks on the need for political reform. They were surprisingly strong in my opinion, I don't know if any China-watchers saw them or what they thought?
Apparently what happens now will be telling, whether or not he's investigated and prosecuted or just quietly disappears. The former would apparently suggest a big rift in the leadership, but the press release on this still referred to him as 'Comrade Bo' which may be significant :mellow:
Putting a self-styled populist with a penchant for neo-Maoism and a total contempt for the rule of law into the most powerful governing body in the world strikes me as a danger equal to any I can think of today that would involve a single individual.
Bo did 3 things in Chongqing - root out the triads, "sing red", and provide welfare for the poor.
The problem is the way he did things. It is arbitrary, populist, and Maoist. Take the triads for example. Sure, that's a good thing that made him popular. But he didn't exactly strengthen the rule of law or promote a culture of clean government. He just pointed at this triad and say get rid of them. Due process, evidence and the law be damned, even by Chinese standards. The defence lawyer of the triad leaders was jailed on dubious charges. The money for welfare isn't from normal government revenues. He simply confiscated triad money and redistributed them to the poor, Robinhood style.
The sing red part is the biggest problem. He used state media resources and mobilised the crowds to do it. It smacks of cultural revolution, Stalinist personality cults and mass political movements which many Chinese still remember as having killed millions not that many decades ago.
Not surprising; CCP doen't like its leaders to exhibit a cult of personality and even possible diversionary thinking that could conceivably be a threat. Look at Hu Yaobang and hell, even Zhao Ziyang.
Quote from: Sheilbh on March 16, 2012, 10:08:59 AM
I think there was suggestions things were turning against him when Wen Jiabao made pointed anti-cultural revolution remarks earlier this week. Though he also made really open remarks on the need for political reform. They were surprisingly strong in my opinion, I don't know if any China-watchers saw them or what they thought?
This isn't the first time Wen says something similar. This is his last year as premier of China and he wants to secure his legacy as a reformer. But he is probably alone in the top Chinese leadership who openly promotes political reform. It will amount to nothing.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 16, 2012, 10:32:38 AM
Not surprising; CCP doen't like its leaders to exhibit a cult of personality and even possible diversionary thinking that could conceivably be a threat. Look at Hu Yaobang and hell, even Zhao Ziyang.
Bo is known as a leftist in mainland China. The sort of leftist who wants to turn the clock back to the good old days of the Mao era, where the strong man rules with the backing of the crowds. He is very far from reformers like Hu or Zhao. Wen, who is considered one of the most open-minded of the top Chinese leaders and himself a right-hand man of Zhao, openly blasted Bo in a press conference a few days ago that made headlines. It wasn't a heat of the moment thing. It was clear that Wen was almost waiting for the inevitable reporter question to make his views on Bo known.
Quote from: Monoriu on March 16, 2012, 10:39:52 AM
He is very far from reformers like Hu or Zhao.
You don't need to be a reformer in China to get hammered over there; you just need to be the tallest nail.
Quote from: Monoriu on March 16, 2012, 10:35:02 AM
This isn't the first time Wen says something similar. This is his last year as premier of China and he wants to secure his legacy as a reformer. But he is probably alone in the top Chinese leadership who openly promotes political reform. It will amount to nothing.
This is what I was referring to, just so we're talking about the same:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-17362644
The UK news I saw on this said it was very strong and direct for him which is what interested me. You're probably right, especially that he wants to cement his legacy as a 'reformer' even though he did little. It could be trying to draft history.
Quote from: Sheilbh on March 16, 2012, 10:56:10 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on March 16, 2012, 10:35:02 AM
This isn't the first time Wen says something similar. This is his last year as premier of China and he wants to secure his legacy as a reformer. But he is probably alone in the top Chinese leadership who openly promotes political reform. It will amount to nothing.
This is what I was referring to, just so we're talking about the same:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-17362644
The UK news I saw on this said it was very strong and direct for him which is what interested me. You're probably right, especially that he wants to cement his legacy as a 'reformer' even though he did little. It could be trying to draft history.
Yeah, we are talking about the same press conference.
His talk about political reform is nothing new. He has expressed similar sentiments in multiple occasions in the past. There are conflicting views on Wen. Many think he is sincere. Some say his performances are Oscar-worthy. But in any case, he is #3 in the politburo standing committee and out of the 9 members, he alone publicly embraces politcal reform. My point is that one person out of the 9 can't achieve anything, regardless of his true intentions.
We've been following this for a while in the Jacob household. The news of Bo's sacking created great cheers, and even prompted my wife to post on weibo on the subject.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on March 16, 2012, 10:09:13 AM
Putting a self-styled populist with a penchant for neo-Maoism and a total contempt for the rule of law into the most powerful governing body in the world strikes me as a danger equal to any I can think of today that would involve a single individual.
Yeah, I'm with you on your assessment of Bo.
A handful of different bits of information and rumours about this whole thing:
- The police in Chongqing have gotten official memos telling them not to openly cheer at Bo's dismissal.
- When Wang Lijun went to the US consulate in Chengdu he was heavily tailed, and had to don disguises and switch cars to get rid of Bo's people following him.
- The police who initially blockaded the US consulate were all Chongqing police who'd driven all the way there (the consulate is in a different jurisdiction, in neighbouring Sichuan). Eventually, however, security personnel from Beijing showed up. There were arguments between the Beijing and Chongqing officers. When Wang emerged from the US consulate he went with the Beijing people and have not been heard from since (though he's been spoken of as a hero in the media and by senior party officials).
- A number of strong-left maoist websites are all down for "server maintenance" at the same time all of a sudden.
... did you read the bit on the BBC about the reporter who visited him in Dalian years ago? And how he had buttons in his office to change the music playing in loudspeakers across the city and the colour of the water in the fountains at whim.
Good News! I vaguely remember this character. He didn't seem to be a big fan of reformists elements in China. Which seems bad for us, and probably them.
Quote from: Monoriu on March 16, 2012, 10:31:43 AM
Bo did 3 things in Chongqing - root out the triads, "sing red", and provide welfare for the poor.
The problem is the way he did things. It is arbitrary, populist, and Maoist. Take the triads for example. Sure, that's a good thing that made him popular. But he didn't exactly strengthen the rule of law or promote a culture of clean government. He just pointed at this triad and say get rid of them. Due process, evidence and the law be damned, even by Chinese standards. The defence lawyer of the triad leaders was jailed on dubious charges. The money for welfare isn't from normal government revenues. He simply confiscated triad money and redistributed them to the poor, Robinhood style.
The sing red part is the biggest problem. He used state media resources and mobilised the crowds to do it. It smacks of cultural revolution, Stalinist personality cults and mass political movements which many Chinese still remember as having killed millions not that many decades ago.
Sounds like Bad News. Good riddance.
Quote from: Jacob on March 16, 2012, 02:19:29 PM
- When Wang Lijun went to the US consulate in Chengdu he was heavily tailed, and had to don disguises and switch cars to get rid of Bo's people following him.
- The police who initially blockaded the US consulate were all Chongqing police who'd driven all the way there (the consulate is in a different jurisdiction, in neighbouring Sichuan). Eventually, however, security personnel from Beijing showed up. There were arguments between the Beijing and Chongqing officers. When Wang emerged from the US consulate he went with the Beijing people and have not been heard from since (though he's been spoken of as a hero in the media and by senior party officials).
I read the following rumor about the Wang affair: Bo found out that his enemies in Beijing were going to attack Wang as a proxy for him, so he decided to pre-emptively move against Wang himself. Only Wang found out before Bo could move and cut a deal with the same people who planned to go after him. The overnight in the consulate was just a ruse to create an excuse for his new allies to send central government law enforcement to pick him up without Chongqing law enforcement interfering.
Of course, I have no idea whether any of this is true.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on March 16, 2012, 03:17:56 PM
Quote from: Jacob on March 16, 2012, 02:19:29 PM
- When Wang Lijun went to the US consulate in Chengdu he was heavily tailed, and had to don disguises and switch cars to get rid of Bo's people following him.
- The police who initially blockaded the US consulate were all Chongqing police who'd driven all the way there (the consulate is in a different jurisdiction, in neighbouring Sichuan). Eventually, however, security personnel from Beijing showed up. There were arguments between the Beijing and Chongqing officers. When Wang emerged from the US consulate he went with the Beijing people and have not been heard from since (though he's been spoken of as a hero in the media and by senior party officials).
I read the following rumor about the Wang affair: Bo found out that his enemies in Beijing were going to attack Wang as a proxy for him, so he decided to pre-emptively move against Wang himself. Only Wang found out before Bo could move and cut a deal with the same people who planned to go after him. The overnight in the consulate was just a ruse to create an excuse for his new allies to send central government law enforcement to pick him up without Chongqing law enforcement interfering.
Of course, I have no idea whether any of this is true.
Interesting. And yeah, it's hard to know the truth.
I'd definitely guess that Wang's excursion to the consulate was to avoid Bo's people and communicate safely with people in Beijing; the whole "defect to the US" thing is highly unlikely. Fascinating to watch from the outside, glad not to be directly involved.
New rumours surfacing via Apple (a newspaper, not Jobs' people) in HK: Bo Xilai turned on his own dad during the cultural revolution.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 16, 2012, 10:32:38 AM
Not surprising; CCP doen't like its leaders to exhibit a cult of personality and even possible diversionary thinking that could conceivably be a threat. Look at Hu Yaobang and hell, even Zhao Ziyang.
Well, if you're sympathetic to to Zhao Bo's fall should cheer you a bit. Bo Xilai's dad was one of the strongest proponents of removing Zhao (who was Wen Jiabao's boss at the time).
More on Bo and his wife's business dealings: http://ca.reuters.com/article/topNews/idCABRE84E0HA20120515?pageNumber=1&virtualBrandChannel=0