Languish.org

This is an old story that I dug up after reading an interview with this lady on the same topic. After the garden hose debate, I'm interested in people's thoughts. The Manhattan subways aren't exactly vice city anymore, but they aren't Walt Disney World either. Also, it was nice to leave her son with quarters to call if he got in trouble, but can you find a pay phone these days?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23935873/from/ET/

QuoteMom lets 9-year-old take subway home alone
Columnist stirs controversy with experiment in childhood independence
   
Video
  A 9-year-old's subway ride
April 3: Izzie Skenazy wanted to travel home by himself, so armed with a fare card, a subway map and $20, his mom sent him off on a New York City adventure.


Once upon a time in New York City, it wasn't a big deal if pre-teen kids rode the subways and buses alone. Today, as Lenore Skenazy has discovered, a kid who goes out without a nanny, a helmet and a security detail is a national news story, and his mother is a candidate for child-abuse charges.

A columnist for The New York Sun, Skenazy recently left her 9-year-old son, Izzy, at Bloomingdale's in midtown Manhattan with a Metrocard for the subway, a subway map, $20, and told him she'd see him when he got back home. She wrote a column about it and has been amazed at the chord she struck among New Yorkers who remember being kids in those more innocent times.

"So many people – the ones who aren't castigating me as crazy – are all regaling me about the first time they took the subway," she told TODAY's Ann Curry on Thursday in New York. "And for most people, it's a great, happy memory. People love that independence."
Story continues below ↓advertisement | your ad here

Izzy, who is now 10, nodded in agreement and insisted it was no big deal. He had been nagging his mother for a long time to let him ride home alone, and finally she agreed to let him take the downtown Lexington Avenue subway and then transfer to a crosstown bus to get home from Bloomingdale's.

"I was like, 'Finally!' " Izzy said of his reaction when his mom finally caved in to his nagging. "I think that it's a really easy, simple thing to get home."

And that was Skenazy's point in her column: The era is long past when Times Square was a fetid sump and taking a walk in Central Park after dark was tantamount to committing suicide. Recent federal statistics show New York to be one of the safest cities in the nation – right up there with Provo, Utah, in fact.

"Times are back to 1963," Skenzay said. "It's safe. It's a great time to be a kid in the city."

The problem is that people read about children who are abducted and murdered and fear takes over, she said. And she doesn't think fear should rule our lives.

As she wrote in her column about Izzy's big adventure: "Half the people I've told this episode to now want to turn me in for child abuse. As if keeping kids under lock and key and helmet and cell phone and nanny and surveillance is the right way to rear kids. It's not. It's debilitating — for us and for them."

When she said goodbye to Izzy in the handbags department, Skenazy didn't even leave him with a cell phone. Instead, she gave him a couple of quarters so he could call home on a pay phone if he got lost.

Dr. Ruth Peters, a parenting expert and TODAY Show contributor, agreed that children should be allowed independent experiences, but felt there are better – and safer – ways to have them than the one Skenazy chose.

"I'm not so much concerned that he's going to be abducted, but there's a lot of people who would rough him up," she said. "There's some bullies and things like that. He could have gotten the same experience in a safer manner."

"It's safe to go on the subway," Skenazy replied. "It's safe to be a kid. It's safe to ride your bike on the streets. We're like brainwashed because of all the stories we hear that it isn't safe. But those are the exceptions. That's why they make it to the news. This is like, 'Boy boils egg.' He did something that any 9-year-old could do."

Addressing the same subject in her column, she had written: "These days, when a kid dies, the world - i.e., cable TV - blames the parents. It's simple as that. And yet, Trevor Butterworth, a spokesman for the research center STATS.org, said, 'The statistics show that this is an incredibly rare event, and you can't protect people from very rare events. It would be like trying to create a shield against being struck by lightning.' "

She said that people ask her how she would feel if one of those terrible and rare events happened to her son.

The kid's lucky Siegy wasn't on that train, or it'd have been like a Sears sale: Children's Jeans, Half Off.

9 year old, boy, normal hours is fine.  If girl, then delay by 2-3 years.  If after midnight, not ok. 

Borderline good.

If the kid's as smart as he seems, I'd brainwash him about being extremely careful, but I'd let him go.

L.

Remember, it is New York City.  9 year olds will stab you in the face there.

[Voice of Hooper] [points to a scar on chest] Mary Ellen Moffat. 9yo New Yorker. She broke my heart.

L.

Borderline. I have a hard time imagining myself letting a 9 years old kid take the subway alone but this one seems highly intelligent and anyway his mother knows him and the city much better; the decision about when to let him take the subway was hers to take.

I think the thing most Europeans would find odd is, he didn't have a phone! Most kids here do already have a phone at that age, and certainly most fathers would give them one if they were free to take the subway alone.

Borderline. Possibly wouldn't do it myself but hey, why not.

10 is perhaps a bit young but for a 12 year old + or round about there its no big deal.

Question: is there any lead on the seats or on the railings/handles?  :)

Quote from: Tyr on May 04, 2009, 07:48:03 AM
10 is perhaps a bit young but for a 12 year old + or round about there its no big deal.

And we could adjust that down a little based on how the US is safer than Europe.

a native 9 year old New Yorker should have the street smarts (or subway smarts) to pay fare, read a map and stay away from bad people.

mum should be commended for enabling her son's autonomy and initiative.

This woman should be killed and her child dissected for medical research.

Actually, I think the decision to send him with a couple of quarters instead of a cell phone just waiting to be stolen was fairly clever. @Alfred: The question is: can you find a working payphone anymore.

Quote from: saskganesh on May 04, 2009, 08:22:51 AM
a native 9 year old New Yorker should have the street smarts (or subway smarts) to pay fare, read a map and stay away from bad people.

mum should be commended for enabling her son's autonomy and initiative.

This.

There are always alot of people around on the subway in NYC, a kid with good sense should be able to ride it just fine.

Quote from: PDH on May 04, 2009, 09:25:50 AM
This woman should be killed and her child dissected for medical research.

Plus she should BURN IN HELL.

Quote from: Alatriste on May 04, 2009, 06:23:16 AM
Borderline. I have a hard time imagining myself letting a 9 years old kid take the subway alone but this one seems highly intelligent and anyway his mother knows him and the city much better; the decision about when to let him take the subway was hers to take.

I think the thing most Europeans would find odd is, he didn't have a phone! Most kids here do already have a phone at that age, and certainly most fathers would give them one if they were free to take the subway alone.

Same in Korea. If a kid is old enough to talk, he/she's got a cell phone, it seems.
I routinely see little kids riding the buses and subways without parents around here.
I figure if they grew up in the city, whether NYC, Seoul, or DC, they'll generally be okay to ride alone by the preteen years, given certain restrictions (not after night, perhaps not in certain areas, etc.)

It's not bad parenting.

Quote from: saskganesh on May 04, 2009, 08:22:51 AM
a native 9 year old New Yorker should have the street smarts (or subway smarts) to pay fare, read a map and stay away from bad people.

mum should be commended for enabling her son's autonomy and initiative.

In theory, I agree with you.

In practice, I wouldn't make the same decision.

Quote from: saskganesh on May 04, 2009, 08:22:51 AM
a native 9 year old New Yorker should have the street smarts (or subway smarts) to pay fare, read a map and stay away from bad people.

mum should be commended for enabling her son's autonomy and initiative.

What he said.

Mom knows her kid. She knows if it's appropriate for him. I have three that would have been fine at that age; one who still gets lost coming home from school at 13. *shrugs*

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.allmoviephoto.com%2F2004_Birth%2F2004_birth_013.jpg&hash=a5f7329c5297ddf3c867e79e8448cadc3c8be872)

Meh, I'm OK with it.  When I was that age, I was taking public transit by myself all the time, and it wasn't unusual.

Quote from: merithyn on May 04, 2009, 07:09:36 PM

Quote from: saskganesh on May 04, 2009, 08:22:51 AM
a native 9 year old New Yorker should have the street smarts (or subway smarts) to pay fare, read a map and stay away from bad people.

mum should be commended for enabling her son's autonomy and initiative.

What he said.

Mom knows her kid. She knows if it's appropriate for him. I have three that would have been fine at that age; one who still gets lost coming home from school at 13. *shrugs*

On the one hand, I agree with what you're saying here.  On the other hand, it's this sort of 'listen to your body' stuff that gets you into trouble.

Quote from: Neil on May 04, 2009, 08:21:42 PM

On the one hand, I agree with what you're saying here.  On the other hand, it's this sort of 'listen to your body' stuff that gets you into trouble.

Had my son listened to his body, he wouldn't have ended up in ICU. :contract: :P

The truth is that there is no blanket age for any of these things. Some kids are more capable than others at different ages. What one can accomplish with ease another cannot for another few years.

its like going to the hospital. you just follow the coloured lines.

Quote from: Monoriu on May 04, 2009, 05:31:43 AM
9 year old, boy, normal hours is fine.  If girl, then delay by 2-3 years.  If after midnight, not ok.

Why? Girls are more mature than boys, up to the age of about 40.

Quote from: DGuller on May 04, 2009, 08:14:25 PM
Meh, I'm OK with it.  When I was that age, I was taking public transit by myself all the time, and it wasn't unusual.

I know that by age 11 I was totally used to travelling alone on the subway, because that year the new Spadina subway extention opened, and I can remember going to each and every new station and collecting a transfer, spending a whole afternoon by myself doing this - and by that time single subway travel was already old hat for me. But I don't remember what age I started to ride on my own. Must have been around 9 or 10.

Quote from: Brazen on May 05, 2009, 08:04:32 AM
Why? Girls are more mature than boys, up to the age of about 40.

In what sense?  Being more neurotic and more likely to fall in love with people in prison?

Quote from: Valmy on May 05, 2009, 08:09:45 AM
In what sense?  Being more neurotic and more likely to fall in love with people in prison?

And who are the ones that ended up in prison? I rest my case.

Quote from: Brazen on May 05, 2009, 08:19:48 AM
And who are the ones that ended up in prison? I rest my case.

We only do that to get chicks.  The ladies love a Convict.

Quote from: Malthus on May 05, 2009, 08:05:29 AM
I know that by age 11 I was totally used to travelling alone on the subway, because that year the new Spadina subway extention opened, and I can remember going to each and every new station and collecting a transfer, spending a whole afternoon by myself doing this - and by that time single subway travel was already old hat for me. But I don't remember what age I started to ride on my own. Must have been around 9 or 10.

Since you like graphic novels and bande dessinée, you should check out Michel Rabagliati's excellent Paul series, either in album or in Drawn and Quarterly annual (or in the original French edited by La Pastèque). In one of the albums, Paul does the exact same thing.

Quote from: Oexmelin on May 05, 2009, 10:36:13 AM

Quote from: Malthus on May 05, 2009, 08:05:29 AM
I know that by age 11 I was totally used to travelling alone on the subway, because that year the new Spadina subway extention opened, and I can remember going to each and every new station and collecting a transfer, spending a whole afternoon by myself doing this - and by that time single subway travel was already old hat for me. But I don't remember what age I started to ride on my own. Must have been around 9 or 10.

Since you like graphic novels and bande dessinée, you should check out Michel Rabagliati's excellent Paul series, either in album or in Drawn and Quarterly annual (or in the original French edited by La Pastèque). In one of the albums, Paul does the exact same thing.

Really? Cool, I will have to check that out. Thanks!

Edit: this one? http://www.amazon.ca/PAUL-DANS-M%C3%89TRO-MICHEL-RABAGLIATI/dp/2922585271/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1241537774&sr=8-1

Yep, that's the one.  :)

Meanwhile, kids in Brooklyn need to be reminded not to eat racoon feces.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30558815

QuoteRare raccoon roundworm blinds NYC teen
Disease transmitted through contact with animal's feces, officials warn

NEW YORK - A rare disease transmitted through contact with raccoon feces has left a New York City teenager blind in one eye and an infant brain damaged.

The city's Department of Health warns parents to be on the alert for raccoon roundworm, which can cause nausea, nerve damage and even death. It says fewer than 30 cases have been reported in medical literature.

Health department spokeswoman Sally Slavinski says parents should supervise children to keep them from eating raccoon feces. Droppings should be picked up using gloves and disposable bags and put in the trash.
Story continues below ↓advertisement | your ad here

The worms lay eggs in the feces; they hatch after being ingested and travel through the body.

The teenager lost sight in one eye in January. The infant has been hospitalized since suffering seizures and spinal problems last October. They're from Brooklyn.

Grow up.

Quote from: DontSayBanana on May 04, 2009, 09:25:59 AM
Actually, I think the decision to send him with a couple of quarters instead of a cell phone just waiting to be stolen was fairly clever. @Alfred: The question is: can you find a working payphone anymore.

yes they really still exist in NYC - every now and then I forget to recharge my cell battery and I have to use one.