Curious to know what Languishites' thoughts may be on this case, particularly the legal or legally-inclined types. The established facts of the case are bolded below.
What I'd like to know is: Would you consider what the father did qualifies as child abuse? And do you think he should have custody (temporary or permanent) of any of the children?
http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2011/jul/08/attorney-Jon-Parrish-zip-tie-daughter-custody-case/
QuoteNaples lawyer, father accused of zip tying up daughter gets custody of younger girl
NAPLES — For more than a year, Collier County courts have wrestled with a case that raises unique questions about custody and corporal punishment.
With two parents locked in a bitter back-and-forth, the family court has had to decide who can better care for a 12-year-old:
A father and local lawyer who has admitted to tying up another daughter, then-15, with zip ties and threatening her with a shock-producing device?
Or a mother who has been uncooperative in court proceedings and could be trying to turn her children against their father?
Last month, Collier Circuit Judge Lauren Brodie sided with the father, Jon Parrish, agreeing with two impartial third-party experts. The mother, Julie Price, was offered supervised visits but declined.
The ruling has frustrated Price. She argues Parrish shouldn't receive custody as he faces felony child abuse and false imprisonment charges for tying up their older daughter.
"I don't see how anybody can say that isn't against the law," Price said in an interview.
Parrish, whose family court attorney declined comment for this story on his client's behalf, has responded by challenging in criminal court whether Parrish even committed a crime.
"I have the duty and responsibility to discipline my child," Parrish said in court last July.
Parrish, unlike Price, has cooperated with the family court's requests. He also argued Price is trying to turn the couple's two children against him, an accusation backed by an impartial court-appointed counselor. And in recent court filings, he has begun the process of reconnecting with his now-17-year-old daughter — the girl he's accused of tying up.
It's a situation that examines how courts determine custody between imperfect parents, and the limits of corporal punishment.
Tied and threatened
A few details are contested, but the general facts of what happened in Jon Parrish's Naples-area house on May 22, 2010, are undisputed.
Frustrated with his then-15-year-old daughter's behavior, Parrish used zip ties to bind the girl's hands and ankles. He then laid her down on her bed for more than an hour, holding a device capable of producing a shock as they spoke.
Parrish has admitted to these details in court.
Accounts vary about whether Parrish then left his daughter tied up in her room, ranging from an hour to three hours.
One month after Parrish tied his daughter, Price filed to receive custody of the then- 15-year-old and their other daughter, then 11 years old. Parrish argued in court that his actions weren't criminal. Parrish has argued the state can't intervene because the child wasn't physically harmed.
Fast facts
A Florida Department of Children and Families investigation resulted in findings of child abuse, but DCF rulings aren't binding in court.
A Florida Department of Children and Families investigation resulted in findings of child abuse, but DCF rulings aren't binding in court.
Erin Gillespie, a DCF spokeswoman, said there's a fine line between legal corporal punishment and child abuse.
"If you're leaving marks on a child for a couple hours after the fact, you're at least getting down the line to abuse," Gillespie said.
In an interview, Price, whose maiden name is Satterfield, said the couple's oldest daughter "had abrasions, but I think the emotional scars are there much longer."
Price was granted temporary custody in June 2010 and Parrish wasn't allowed to see the couple's two daughters.
In September, after a four-month investigation, Parrish was charged by the State Attorney's Office with felony counts of aggravated child abuse and false imprisonment. Both sides continue to gather evidence, said Michelle Hill, Parrish's attorney in the criminal case.
Change of custody
By December, Parrish was granted supervised visits with the couple's youngest daughter.
In March, after observing three visits with Parrish and the youngest daughter, therapeutic counselor Robert Crawford testified in court that Parrish was stiff but sincere while interacting with the child.
"Here's the bottom line — I don't think Mr. Parrish is a threat to (the couple's youngest) daughter in terms of spending time with her," Crawford said in court.
Quotable
"Here's the bottom line — I don't think Mr. Parrish is a threat to (the couple's youngest) daughter in terms of spending time with her," counselor Robert Crawford said in court.
Crawford also said Price has a higher-conflict personality, which negatively influenced the couple's children. He added the back-and-forth between parents was harmful and suggested in March that Parrish receive temporary custody.
Judge Brodie required more supervised visits before deciding on a custody change. She also scolded Price in March for sharing information about the case with the children.
After eight more supervised visits over three months, raising his total supervised hours to 23, Crawford reiterated his suggestion that Parrish receive temporary custody.
Holly Chernoff, a guardian ad litem appointed to make impartial recommendations on the child's behalf, agreed with Crawford's suggestion.
During those three months, Price became uncooperative, Brodie stated in a ruling. Price didn't follow through with allowing visits between Parrish and the couple's youngest daughter, and she unilaterally canceled court-ordered appointments.
It left Brodie with a decision: Should the couple's now- 12-year-old live with a father still facing abuse charges, or go against two impartial experts and award temporary custody to the mother.
Determining custody
For deciding custody or a primary residence in such cases, Florida law outlines 13 factors for a judge to consider. Among those pertinent to this case: Which parent will encourage contact and a relationship between the child and another parent, evidence of domestic violence or child abuse, and the need to maintain continuity in a single household.
On June 17, Brodie awarded temporary custody to Parrish.
Five days later, Price wrote that the offer of supervised visits for her daughter was an unacceptable arrangement that could end "any sort of normal relationship with her mother."
Price has questioned whether Crawford was impartial in his assessment, contending that because Parrish paid for Crawford's services, his findings could have favored Parrish.
Nicole Goetz, a Naples-based family law attorney, said concerns about impartiality from supervisors and guardian ad litems "typically doesn't really come into play."
"The concept is hopefully they're impartial, especially if that's how they make their living," Goetz said.
Crawford has been a licensed mental health counselor in Florida since 2002, while Chernoff, a family law mediator, has been a member of The Florida Bar since 1983.
Price also denied sharing information about the case with the couple's children, saying they learned about it from friends and media reports.
Fort Myers-based family law attorney Luis Insignares said parents telling children about family court proceedings is "something the courts look at quite carefully," adding that "it is difficult to prove."
As for Price's primary contention — that a father facing child abuse charges shouldn't be allowed custody — Insignares said it's a difficult balance for the courts.
"The fact that DCF says something happened doesn't mean the family court has to follow that blindly," Insignares said. "It's a strong indication, but it's not something that automatically should take place."
QuoteFrustrated with his then-15-year-old daughter's behavior, Parrish used zip ties to bind the girl's hands and ankles. He then laid her down on her bed for more than an hour, holding a device capable of producing a shock as they spoke.
I'll be the first: OMG HAWT.
Yeah, I went there.
Well that's definitely horrifying.
QuoteDCF rulings aren't binding in court
*snicker*
Shocking.
yes, among other things.
It is, yes. Is there even a question? I am surprised he didn't show her the implements and introduce the thumbscrews.
I dunno, seems restraining children and making threats("just wait til your father gets home" et al) have always been considered an integral part of child-rearing. In this case, it sounds excessive, but I'd be willing to hear some context before making a summary judgment.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on February 22, 2012, 04:54:44 PM
I dunno, seems restraining children and making threats("just wait til your father gets home" et al) have always been considered an integral part of child-rearing. In this case, it sounds excessive, but I'd be willing to hear some context before making a summary judgment.
DCF and alleged crazy-bitch-woman are suggesting that 1) he left her tied up and unattended, and 2) there were ligature marks, so physical harm was done. That's what it sounds like, anyway.
Quote from: fahdiz on February 22, 2012, 04:24:31 PM
It is, yes. Is there even a question? I am surprised he didn't show her the implements and introduce the thumbscrews.
This is Languish/internet. No matter how obvious the answer is, there will always be a cretinous idiot deserving to die in a fire together with anyone who has anything to do with his gene pool to argue otherwise.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on February 22, 2012, 04:54:44 PM
I dunno, seems restraining children
This is zip ties, not sitting in the corner.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on February 22, 2012, 04:54:44 PM
I dunno, seems restraining children and making threats("just wait til your father gets home" et al) have always been considered an integral part of child-rearing. In this case, it sounds excessive, but I'd be willing to hear some context before making a summary judgment.
Age of the child is an important consideration.
Since the prosecutors are charging him for the incident, will concurr with my colleagues south of the border.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on February 22, 2012, 04:54:44 PM
I dunno, seems restraining children and making threats("just wait til your father gets home" et al) have always been considered an integral part of child-rearing. In this case, it sounds excessive, but I'd be willing to hear some context before making a summary judgment.
Here's a little more context, from his perspective:
http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2010/sep/29/naples-man-accused-punishing-child-zip-ties/
QuoteAccording to a highly redacted incident report, the girl is "always running away" and Parrish didn't want to have anything more to do with her because he "cannot control her.
Can't find the link, but he mentioned in a local interview that on top of constantly sneaking out of the house she is a troubled teen and has gotten into trouble with drugs. He said he did what he did to demonstrate to her what it is like where she is headed (prison) unless she were to clean up her act.
I don't know how much of that is true apart from her sneaking out. I do know him-- and his ex-wife. I have some bias in this case, so I'm trying to get some objective opinions on the matter.
Quote from: Barrister on February 22, 2012, 04:59:31 PM
Age of the child is an important consideration.
She was 15 at the time of the incident.
Quote from: derspiess on February 22, 2012, 05:17:25 PM
Quote from: Barrister on February 22, 2012, 04:59:31 PM
Age of the child is an important consideration.
She was 15 at the time of the incident.
Precisely.
Something like this might have been acceptable to a younger child - hell I restrain my toddler on a daily basis. But on a 15 year old? That just doesn't fly.
Quote from: derspiess on February 22, 2012, 05:12:26 PM
Can't find the link, but he mentioned in a local interview that on top of constantly sneaking out of the house she is a troubled teen and has gotten into trouble with drugs. He said he did what he did to demonstrate to her what it is like where she is headed (prison) unless she were to clean up her act.
This puts things in a different context. Originally I was thinking straight abuse.
Or as they would say on ESPN, a different slant on the matter.
It sounds to me that he is adopting desperate measures when it is far too late. Corporal and restraining punishments are really an admission of failure when parents resort to them, moral authority should be established at an early age, they can then be used to stop teens from screwing up.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 22, 2012, 05:22:37 PM
Or as they would say on ESPN, a different slant on the matter.
:lol: Aha, I've found the chink in your armor!
Quote from: Barrister on February 22, 2012, 05:22:02 PM
Precisely.
Something like this might have been acceptable to a younger child - hell I restrain my toddler on a daily basis. But on a 15 year old? That just doesn't fly.
I'm not 100% sure I follow that. You restrain your toddler, but certainly you don't use zip ties and bind his wrists and ankles. I can't think of many situations where that would be appropriate for a child of any age.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on February 22, 2012, 05:23:53 PM
It sounds to me that he is adopting desperate measures when it is far too late. Corporal and restraining punishments are really an admission of failure when parents resort to them, moral authority should be established at an early age, they can then be used to stop teens from screwing up.
He'd respond that his ex-wife had previously had custody of the girl (and thus his ability to influence her had been very limited) and she came to live with him in part because she was already having behavioral problems.
But all that aside, do you think he's guilty of abuse? I'd have to think it would qualify as such in the UK.
It would almost certainly count as abuse in the UK.
I can understand his motivations, but our ability to change people who are 15 years old is very limited, so he has resorted to desperate measures that are not really appropriate.
Tricky, do youse guys have anything like "Scared Straight?" That's a program that takes troubled kids on a visit to a prison, so they know what they're looking at if they don't shape up.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 22, 2012, 06:07:15 PM
Tricky, do youse guys have anything like "Scared Straight?" That's a program that takes troubled kids on a visit to a prison, so they know what they're looking at if they don't shape up.
Didn't some kids die on one of these programs? I seem to recall something like that a few years back.
As for the original question, I'd say it's abuse to tie up a kid as a form of punishment. Same for threatening her with an electric device.
I also rather think the father's actions sounds like it's coming straight out of a fetish porn film plot.
Seems a little over-the-top to me, although perhaps there were extenuating circumstances. In cases like these, I tend to trust parents over children and Martinus.
Quote from: Barrister on February 22, 2012, 05:22:02 PM
Precisely.
Something like this might have been acceptable to a younger child - hell I restrain my toddler on a daily basis. But on a 15 year old? That just doesn't fly.
If you are using zip ties and stun guns, that's one hell of a toddler. :D
Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 22, 2012, 03:54:21 PM
QuoteFrustrated with his then-15-year-old daughter's behavior, Parrish used zip ties to bind the girl's hands and ankles. He then laid her down on her bed for more than an hour, holding a device capable of producing a shock as they spoke.
I'll be the first: OMG HAWT.
Yeah, I went there.
I wish I could say I was surprised that this was the first comment. ;)
Quote from: derspiess on February 22, 2012, 05:12:26 PM
Can't find the link, but he mentioned in a local interview that on top of constantly sneaking out of the house she is a troubled teen and has gotten into trouble with drugs. He said he did what he did to demonstrate to her what it is like where she is headed (prison) unless she were to clean up her act.
I dont think they do what he did to his daughter even in the US prisons. He may have been concerned about where she was headed but if I had a father like that, I would want to run away too.
Seeing the reasons the father had I can certainly sympathise with him. The girl was not listening or getting what her father was trying to smarten her up over. And so Dad felt the daughter was heading for some serious and dangerous problems, so given the situation the dad faced I'm not too bent out of shape over his actions. However, I assume it's considered child abuse though, legally speaking.
Quote from: Malthus on February 22, 2012, 06:42:58 PM
Quote from: Barrister on February 22, 2012, 05:22:02 PM
Precisely.
Something like this might have been acceptable to a younger child - hell I restrain my toddler on a daily basis. But on a 15 year old? That just doesn't fly.
If you are using zip ties and stun guns, that's one hell of a toddler. :D
It is the only way to make sure he becomes a Jets fan rather than the other more reasonable alternatives.
Quote from: Neil on February 22, 2012, 06:33:11 PM
In cases like these, I tend to trust parents over children and Martinus.
Marty's parents clearly didn't beat him enough as a child. :yes:
So, zip ties are a no-no. Duct tape is still OK right? :unsure:
Quote from: lustindarkness on February 22, 2012, 07:20:48 PM
So, zip ties are a no-no. Duct tape is still OK right? :unsure:
Yes. And bungee cords.
He should have just shot her laptop.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on February 22, 2012, 06:48:27 PM
Quote from: Neil on February 22, 2012, 06:33:11 PM
In cases like these, I tend to trust parents over children and Martinus.
Marty's parents clearly didn't beat him enough as a child. :yes:
:lol:
There was a thread like this on Paradox OT years ago (2002 or so) and I told Martinus he wouldn't have been gay if his parents had just hit him more and he threw a massive drama fit and didn't talk to me for all of three days.
Quote from: Jaron on February 22, 2012, 08:39:10 PM
There was a thread like this on Paradox OT years ago (2002 or so) and I told Martinus he wouldn't have been gay if his parents had just hit him more and he threw a massive drama fit and didn't talk to me for all of three days.
Three days has to be some kind of record. Clearly he was PO'ed something fierce.
Quote from: PDH on February 22, 2012, 08:03:26 PM
He should have just shot her laptop.
I still think that is a waste of ammunition.
Quote from: Ed Anger on February 22, 2012, 09:01:56 PM
Quote from: PDH on February 22, 2012, 08:03:26 PM
He should have just shot her laptop.
I still think that is a waste of ammunition.
Just gotta charge the kid for the ammo used on the laptop like that other guy did.
Quote from: derspiess on February 22, 2012, 05:44:44 PM
Quote from: Barrister on February 22, 2012, 05:22:02 PM
Precisely.
Something like this might have been acceptable to a younger child - hell I restrain my toddler on a daily basis. But on a 15 year old? That just doesn't fly.
I'm not 100% sure I follow that. You restrain your toddler, but certainly you don't use zip ties and bind his wrists and ankles. I can't think of many situations where that would be appropriate for a child of any age.
BB is ignoring how the child was restrained because the child is simply too old to be restrained no matter how.
In Canada, if I understand this right, max age for corporal punishment is 12.
Quote from: Martinus on February 22, 2012, 04:58:20 PM
This is Languish/internet. No matter how obvious the answer is, there will always be a cretinous idiot deserving to die in a fire together with anyone who has anything to do with his gene pool martinus to argue otherwise.
See how much more concise you can be when you use proper terminology? Expand your vocabulary and shorten your posts, plz.
QuoteATTALLA, Ala. -- Roger Simpson said he looked down the road and saw a little girl running outside her home but didn't give it another thought. Police, however, said the man witnessed a murder in progress.
Authorities say 9-year-old Savannah Hardin died after being forced to run for three hours as punishment for having lied to her grandmother about eating candy bars.
Severely dehydrated, the girl had a seizure and died days later. Now, her grandmother and stepmother, who police say meted out the punishment, were taken to jail Wednesday and face murder charges.
Witnesses told deputies Savannah was told to run and not allowed to stop for three hours on Friday, an Etowah County Sheriff's Office spokeswoman said. The girl's stepmother, 27-year-old Jessica Mae Hardin, called police at 6:45 p.m., telling them Savannah was having a seizure and was unresponsive.
Simpson said he saw a little girl running at around 4 p.m., but didn't see anybody chasing or coercing her.
"I saw her running down there, that's what I told the detectives," Simpson said from his home on a hill overlooking the Hardins. "But I don't see how that would kill her."
'Ran her until she dropped'
Natalie Barton, Etowah County, Alabama Public Information Officer, told Reuters that a call placed to a 911 emergency operator reported an unresponsive child having seizures.
"It appears they ran her until she dropped," Barton added.
However, authorities were still trying to determine whether Savannah was forced to run by physical coercion or by verbal commands. Deputies were told the girl was made to run after lying to her grandmother, 46-year-old Joyce Hardin Garrard, about having eaten the candy, sheriff's office spokeswoman Natalie Barton said.
Savannah died Monday at Children's Hospital in Birmingham, according to a news release from the sheriff's office. The sheriff's release said an autopsy report showed the girl was extremely dehydrated and had a very low sodium level. A state pathologist ruled it a homicide.
The sheriff's office received calls from concerned citizens who witnessed the girl running. An official with the local volunteer fire department also said rescuers thought something seemed odd when they responded to a call about the child.
"One of the ones who were down there said he didn't feel like everything was right," said Ruby Ward, vice president of the Mountainboro Volunteer Fire Department.
Garrard and Jessica Mae Hardin were being held in the Etowah County Detention Center, each on a $500,000 cash bond.
Savannah was a third-grader at Carlisle Elementary School. Superintendent Alan Cosby said her desk had been turned into a makeshift memorial where her classmates could leave notes and mementos. He said counselors and social workers were made available for students.
"This is obviously a very tragic, devastating, heartbreaking situation," Cosby said. "Nothing like this has ever happened before."
Quote from: fahdiz on February 22, 2012, 05:26:37 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 22, 2012, 05:22:37 PM
Or as they would say on ESPN, a different slant on the matter.
:lol: Aha, I've found the chink in your armor!
We need to stay off the slippery slope arguments, here.
Quote from: Scipio on February 23, 2012, 09:51:53 PM
Quote from: fahdiz on February 22, 2012, 05:26:37 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 22, 2012, 05:22:37 PM
Or as they would say on ESPN, a different slant on the matter.
:lol: Aha, I've found the chink in your armor!
We need to stay off the slippery slope arguments, here.
I don't get Linsanity.
Quote from: garbon on February 23, 2012, 09:57:19 PM
Quote from: Scipio on February 23, 2012, 09:51:53 PM
Quote from: fahdiz on February 22, 2012, 05:26:37 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 22, 2012, 05:22:37 PM
Or as they would say on ESPN, a different slant on the matter.
:lol: Aha, I've found the chink in your armor!
We need to stay off the slippery slope arguments, here.
I don't get Linsanity.
You wouldn't understand as not being a minority.
Quote from: katmai on February 23, 2012, 10:34:24 PM
Quote from: garbon on February 23, 2012, 09:57:19 PM
Quote from: Scipio on February 23, 2012, 09:51:53 PM
Quote from: fahdiz on February 22, 2012, 05:26:37 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 22, 2012, 05:22:37 PM
Or as they would say on ESPN, a different slant on the matter.
:lol: Aha, I've found the chink in your armor!
We need to stay off the slippery slope arguments, here.
I don't get Linsanity.
You wouldn't understand as not being a minority.
:P
Didn't we already have Yao Ming? Different China, but whatevs.
There is only one China. :angry:
Quote from: KRonn on February 22, 2012, 06:45:06 PM
Seeing the reasons the father had I can certainly sympathise with him. The girl was not listening or getting what her father was trying to smarten her up over. And so Dad felt the daughter was heading for some serious and dangerous problems, so given the situation the dad faced I'm not too bent out of shape over his actions. However, I assume it's considered child abuse though, legally speaking.
Maybe the father is an idiot? Why would she want to listen to an idiot?
Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 23, 2012, 09:40:14 PM
"This is obviously a very tragic, devastating, heartbreaking situation," Cosby said. "Nothing like this has ever happened before."
:hmm:
Quote from: Grey Fox on February 23, 2012, 07:04:57 AM
In Canada, if I understand this right, max age for corporal punishment is 12.
Well that seems ridiculous.
Quote from: Martinus on February 24, 2012, 02:12:32 AM
Maybe the father is an idiot? Why would she want to listen to an idiot?
You don't need to be in MENSA to understand that drugs can be harmful.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on February 24, 2012, 11:40:14 AM
Quote from: Martinus on February 24, 2012, 02:12:32 AM
Maybe the father is an idiot? Why would she want to listen to an idiot?
You don't need to be in MENSA to understand that drugs can be harmful.
But don't have to be.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rawstory.com%2Frs%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F07%2FPfizer.gif&hash=1ac991ebddf8b825212af1013c7932691a3f9d50)
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on February 24, 2012, 11:40:14 AM
Quote from: Martinus on February 24, 2012, 02:12:32 AM
Maybe the father is an idiot? Why would she want to listen to an idiot?
You don't need to be in MENSA to understand that drugs can be harmful.
If MENSA was a Swedish word it would mean "having your period". I rest my case.
Quote from: Martinus on February 24, 2012, 02:12:32 AM
Quote from: KRonn on February 22, 2012, 06:45:06 PM
Seeing the reasons the father had I can certainly sympathise with him. The girl was not listening or getting what her father was trying to smarten her up over. And so Dad felt the daughter was heading for some serious and dangerous problems, so given the situation the dad faced I'm not too bent out of shape over his actions. However, I assume it's considered child abuse though, legally speaking.
Maybe the father is an idiot? Why would she want to listen to an idiot?
Based on the info we have, the daughter is a problem kid, out of control, heading downwards. Maybe instead the father loves his daughter and is worried sick over what will happen to her.
Quote from: KRonn on February 24, 2012, 01:11:43 PM
Quote from: Martinus on February 24, 2012, 02:12:32 AM
Quote from: KRonn on February 22, 2012, 06:45:06 PM
Seeing the reasons the father had I can certainly sympathise with him. The girl was not listening or getting what her father was trying to smarten her up over. And so Dad felt the daughter was heading for some serious and dangerous problems, so given the situation the dad faced I'm not too bent out of shape over his actions. However, I assume it's considered child abuse though, legally speaking.
Maybe the father is an idiot? Why would she want to listen to an idiot?
Based on the info we have, the daughter is a problem kid, out of control, heading downwards. Maybe instead the father loves his daughter and is worried sick over what will happen to her.
I don't think that jives with Marti's worldview of breeders.
No pictures?
Quote from: Siege on February 26, 2012, 08:14:49 PM
No pictures?
Remember, you asked for it.
Here's the father:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.naplesnews.com%2Fmedia%2Fimg%2Fphotos%2F2010%2F09%2F29%2Fjohn-douglas-parrish_t607.jpg&hash=0c8e08af65d311d15c535e9614360bc0b31ed416)
Not that one!
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg2-1.timeinc.net%2Few%2Fdynamic%2Fimgs%2F070320%2Fidol_l.jpg&hash=9eace60dffea18d173824c9c8208391f56427185)
Too fat, too old. Making too ugly a face. </siege>
Quote from: crazy canuck on February 22, 2012, 06:47:22 PM
Quote from: Malthus on February 22, 2012, 06:42:58 PM
Quote from: Barrister on February 22, 2012, 05:22:02 PM
Precisely.
Something like this might have been acceptable to a younger child - hell I restrain my toddler on a daily basis. But on a 15 year old? That just doesn't fly.
If you are using zip ties and stun guns, that's one hell of a toddler. :D
It is the only way to make sure he becomes a Jets fan rather than the other more reasonable alternatives.
My quip about the Jets has gone unnoticed and unappreciated.
Quote from: crazy canuck on February 28, 2012, 04:39:23 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on February 22, 2012, 06:47:22 PM
Quote from: Malthus on February 22, 2012, 06:42:58 PM
Quote from: Barrister on February 22, 2012, 05:22:02 PM
Precisely.
Something like this might have been acceptable to a younger child - hell I restrain my toddler on a daily basis. But on a 15 year old? That just doesn't fly.
If you are using zip ties and stun guns, that's one hell of a toddler. :D
It is the only way to make sure he becomes a Jets fan rather than the other more reasonable alternatives.
My quip about the Jets has gone unnoticed and unappreciated.
My plans are proceeding apace. The little guy still doesn't want to sit and watch a hockey game (toys are too much fun) but he does point to the tv and go "Copeeko" when he sees hockey on the TV, or a Jets logo. :cool:
Quote from: DontSayBanana on February 27, 2012, 11:13:58 PM
Too fat, too old. Making too ugly a face. </siege>
Whoa, how did you do that?
Can you read minds?
Like professor Xavier?