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General Category => Off the Record => Topic started by: Sheilbh on December 18, 2011, 07:01:40 AM

Title: Vaclav Havel Dead
Post by: Sheilbh on December 18, 2011, 07:01:40 AM
RIP :(
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.radio.cz%2Fpictures%2Fctk02%2Fpraha_srdcex.jpg&hash=8355b5dd0b84e0b606a9c2eb4c4b669d349d5700)

Edit:  I almost suspect (and hope) that this line from the BBC report is one last joke he's made:
QuoteHe was comforted in his final moments by his wife Dagmara and several nuns, his secretary was quoted as saying by Reuters news agency.
Title: Re: Vaclav Havel Dead
Post by: Richard Hakluyt on December 18, 2011, 07:08:53 AM
 :(

Title: Re: Vaclav Havel Dead
Post by: Scipio on December 18, 2011, 08:15:04 AM
RIP, Velvet President.

Hey, that sounds like a funk group.
Title: Re: Vaclav Havel Dead
Post by: Caliga on December 18, 2011, 08:19:35 AM
 :(
Title: Re: Vaclav Havel Dead
Post by: Martinus on December 18, 2011, 08:29:55 AM
RIP

It seems like this Christmas the toll is higher than usual. Cesaria Evoria, Vaclav Havel, Hitchens, a few others as well.
Title: Re: Vaclav Havel Dead
Post by: jimmy olsen on December 18, 2011, 08:31:04 AM
Sad news, he was a truly great man. :(
Title: Re: Vaclav Havel Dead
Post by: Sheilbh on December 18, 2011, 08:44:39 AM
Quote from: Martinus on December 18, 2011, 08:29:55 AMIt seems like this Christmas the toll is higher than usual. Cesaria Evoria, Vaclav Havel, Hitchens, a few others as well.
It's certainly higher quality :(
Title: Re: Vaclav Havel Dead
Post by: mongers on December 18, 2011, 09:45:01 AM
He remains a great man.

Someone whom many of the conspiracy theory obsessed youth and their fellow internet travelers should look to for inspiration rather than todays youtube charlatans and demagogues they listen to; Havel knew what it was like to live in and struggle against a Real police state.

I remember seeing a filmed undercover interview he gave the bbc in the late 70s, whilst having been notionally released from prison, through the window the film showed just a couple of dozen yards away, two plainclothes state security men permanently monitoring his every move.
Title: Re: Vaclav Havel Dead
Post by: Josephus on December 18, 2011, 10:23:53 AM
 :(
Title: Re: Vaclav Havel Dead
Post by: Warspite on December 18, 2011, 10:30:33 AM
Quote from: mongers on December 18, 2011, 09:45:01 AM
He remains a great man.

Someone whom many of the conspiracy theory obsessed youth and their fellow internet travelers should look to for inspiration rather than todays youtube charlatans and demagogues they listen to; Havel knew what it was like to live in and struggle against a Real police state.

I remember seeing a filmed undercover interview he gave the bbc in the late 70s, whilst having been notionally released from prison, through the window the film showed just a couple of dozen yards away, two plainclothes state security men permanently monitoring his every move.

'The noble title of "dissident" must be earned rather than claimed; it connotes sacrifice and risk rather than mere disagreement.'

(To throw a Hitchensism in there)
Title: Re: Vaclav Havel Dead
Post by: Martinus on December 18, 2011, 12:46:37 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 18, 2011, 08:31:04 AM
Sad news, he was a truly great man. :(

I'm curious - what do you know about him? His political stances? Etc.
Title: Re: Vaclav Havel Dead
Post by: mongers on December 18, 2011, 02:18:08 PM
Quote from: Warspite on December 18, 2011, 10:30:33 AM
Quote from: mongers on December 18, 2011, 09:45:01 AM
He remains a great man.

Someone whom many of the conspiracy theory obsessed youth and their fellow internet travelers should look to for inspiration rather than todays youtube charlatans and demagogues they listen to; Havel knew what it was like to live in and struggle against a Real police state.

I remember seeing a filmed undercover interview he gave the bbc in the late 70s, whilst having been notionally released from prison, through the window the film showed just a couple of dozen yards away, two plainclothes state security men permanently monitoring his every move.

'The noble title of "dissident" must be earned rather than claimed; it connotes sacrifice and risk rather than mere disagreement.'

(To throw a Hitchensism in there)

I think he actually rejected that appellation. :unsure:
Title: Re: Vaclav Havel Dead
Post by: Sheilbh on December 18, 2011, 02:20:31 PM
Timothy Garton-Ash has a nice appreciation in the Guardian.  Garton-Ash's 'The Uses of Adversity', a collection of essays on his time as a research student in East Berlin, and his subsequent travels around the Eastern Bloc, in the 80s is simply superb and the origin of my admiration of Havel.  It's well worth a read though for the different forms of dissent in the different countries that Garton-Ash writes about.  Especially from a Western perspective that simply sees some general 'collapse of Communism' rather than interesting and unique dissident movements and emerging revolutions. 

His character sketch of Havel is wonderful.  Him sitting in his farmhouse, I think at one point sneaking through the forest to share a cigarette with his secret policemen.  I'll re-read when I get home. 

This has prompted me to read a couple of Havel's essays - I'd only read famous quotations and stories before.  They're worth a look and his website's got a number of them online.
Title: Re: Vaclav Havel Dead
Post by: Sheilbh on December 18, 2011, 02:28:51 PM
Quote from: mongers on December 18, 2011, 02:18:08 PM
I think he actually rejected that appellation. :unsure:
I'm not sure it was a simple rejection.
QuoteThe life of a dissident in Czechoslovakia is really not particularlyjolly, and spending time in Czechoslovak jails is even less so. Our frequent jesting about these matters is not in conflict with their seriousness; rather, it is their inevitable consequence. Perhaps we simply couldn't bear it at all if we were not at once aware of how absurd and so how comic it all is. Many of those who sympathize with us abroad would not understand our joking or would take it for cynicism. (More than once I have noted that, when meeting with foreigners, I do not translate much of what we say, just to be sure.) And when a dissident friend of mine, tasting what, for us, were exotic delights at the American Embassy, hailed them with Patočka's famous remark, "There are things worth suffering for," we all laughed; it never occurred to any of us to consider this unworthy of the dignity of Patočka's heritage, of his tragic death, and of the moral foundations of the dissident stance in general.

In short, perhaps it is part of the plebeian tradition of Czech culture, but here we tend to be more acutely aware of the fact that anyone who takes himself too seriously soon becomes ridiculous, while anyone who always manages to laugh at himself cannot be truly ridiculous.
Title: Re: Vaclav Havel Dead
Post by: dps on December 18, 2011, 07:08:02 PM
 :(
Title: Re: Vaclav Havel Dead
Post by: Josquius on December 18, 2011, 07:14:54 PM
My mental mode that 1990 was just 10 years ago continues to shatter. :(
Title: Re: Vaclav Havel Dead
Post by: CountDeMoney on December 18, 2011, 08:58:59 PM
Quote from: mongers on December 18, 2011, 09:45:01 AM
Someone whom many of the conspiracy theory obsessed youth and their fellow internet travelers should look to for inspiration rather than todays youtube charlatans and demagogues they listen to;

Havel never rode on a Roomba.
Title: Re: Vaclav Havel Dead
Post by: derspiess on December 18, 2011, 09:17:23 PM
RIP.  One of the greatest men of the Cold War and post-Cold War period.