...And it wasn't Will who wrote the plays.http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123998633934729551.html#mod=todays_us_nonsub_page_one
Quote
Justice Stevens Renders an Opinion on Who Wrote Shakespeare's Plays
It Wasn't the Bard of Avon, He Says; 'Evidence Is Beyond a Reasonable Doubt'
In his 34 years on the Supreme Court, Justice John Paul Stevens has evolved from idiosyncratic dissenter to influential elder, able to assemble majorities on issues such as war powers and property rights. Now, the court's senior justice could be gaining ground on a case that dates back 400 years: the authorship of Shakespeare's plays.
Justice Stevens, who dropped out of graduate study in English to join the Navy in 1941, is an Oxfordian -- that is, he believes the works ascribed to William Shakespeare actually were written by the 17th earl of Oxford, Edward de Vere. Several justices across the court's ideological spectrum say he may be right.
This puts much of the court squarely outside mainstream academic opinion, which equates denial of Shakespeare's authorship with the Flat Earth Society.
"Oh my," said Coppelia Kahn, president of the Shakespeare Association of America and professor of English at Brown University, when informed of Justice Stevens's cause. "Nobody gives any credence to these arguments," she says.
Nonetheless, since the 19th century, some have argued that only a nobleman could have produced writings so replete with intimate depictions of courtly life and exotic settings far beyond England. Dabbling in entertainments was considered undignified, the theory goes, so the author laundered his works through Shakespeare, a member of the Globe Theater's acting troupe.
Over the years, various candidates have attracted prominent supporters. Mark Twain is said to have favored Sir Francis Bacon. Malcolm X preferred King James I. De Vere first was advanced in 1918 by an English schoolmaster named J. Thomas Looney. More recently, thanks in part to aggressive lobbying by a contemporary descendant, Charles Vere, Oxford has emerged as a leading alternate author.
The bow-tied, 88-year-old Justice Stevens, who often leads the court's liberal wing, says he became especially interested in Shakespeare when he attended the Chicago World's Fair in 1933, where a replica Globe Theater presented many of the plays. Justice Stevens's father ran the restaurant concession nearby.
Justice Stevens didn't start thinking about the authorship question, though, until 1987, when he joined Justices William Brennan and Harry Blackmun in a mock trial on authorship.
The panel found insufficient evidence to prove de Vere's claim. Justice Brennan vigorously rejected many Oxfordian premises, finding that "the historical William Shakespeare was not such an ignorant butcher's boy as he has been made out." It was a closer call for the other two justices.
"Right after the argument, both Harry and I got more interested in it," Justice Stevens says. In a visit to Shakespeare's birthplace in Stratford-upon-Avon, Justice Stevens observed that the purported playwright left no books, nor letters or other records of a literary presence.
"Where are the books? You can't be a scholar of that depth and not have any books in your home," Justice Stevens says. "He never had any correspondence with his contemporaries, he never was shown to be present at any major event -- the coronation of James or any of that stuff. I think the evidence that he was not the author is beyond a reasonable doubt."
All signs pointed to de Vere. Justice Stevens mentions that Lord Burghley, guardian of the young de Vere, is generally accepted as the model for the courtier Polonius in "Hamlet." "Burghley was the No. 1 adviser to the queen," says the justice. "De Vere married [Burghley's] daughter, which fits in with Hamlet marrying Polonius's daughter, Ophelia."
Shakespeare dedicated two narrative poems to the earl of Southampton, Henry Wriothesley, "who also was a ward of Lord Burghley and grew up in the same household," Justice Stevens says. "The coincidence...is really quite remarkable." He asks, "Why in the world would William Shakespeare, the guy from Stratford, be dedicating these works to this nobleman?"
Not all members of the court are persuaded. "To the extent I've dipped in, I'm not impressed with the Oxfordian theory," says Justice Anthony Kennedy. The spread of Oxfordianism on the court "shows Justice Stevens's power and influence," Justice Kennedy says. Of the nine active justices, only Stephen Breyer joins Justice Kennedy in sticking up for Will. Chief Justice John Roberts and Justices Clarence Thomas and Samuel Alito declined to comment.
Justice Sandra Day O'Connor, who retired in 2006, cast the court's deciding vote many times. On Shakespeare, she says, "I'm not going to jump into this and be decisive."
According to Justice Stevens, "Sandra is persuaded that it definitely was not Shakespeare" and "it's more likely de Vere than any other candidate." Pressed, Justice O'Connor says, "It might well have been someone other than our Stratford man."
Justice Stevens admits there's a "fringe" element of anti-Shakespearians who spin elaborate but unlikely theories. "I think that's one of the things that hurts the cause -- and the fact that the guy who first came up with de Vere was named Looney," he says.
On the other hand, "a lot of people like to think its Shakespeare because...they like to think that a commoner can be such a brilliant writer," he says. "Even though there is no Santa Claus, it's still a wonderful myth."
On this issue, Justice Stevens sees eye to eye with his frequent conservative antagonist, Antonin Scalia, who says that as a child he received a monograph propounding de Vere's cause from a family friend.
"My wife, who is a much better expert in literature than I am, has berated me," says Justice Scalia. "She thinks we Oxfordians are motivated by the fact that we can't believe that a commoner could have done something like this, you know, it's an aristocratic tendency."
Stevens on Shakespeare
In a law review article in 1992, Justice Stevens mused on the "Shakespeare canon of statutory construction." (Reproduced with permission.)
In 2002, he addressed "section 43(A)" of the Shakespeare canon.
Where It Began
Watch Justices Stevens, Brennan and Blackmun's 1987 Shakespeare trial, as recorded by C-SPAN.
Justice Scalia prefers to turn the tables.
"It is probably more likely that the pro-Shakespearean people are affected by a democratic bias than the Oxfordians are affected by an aristocratic bias," he says.
Justices David Souter and Ruth Bader Ginsburg say they're not sure who wrote the plays. Justice Ginsburg, however, provided a March email from her daughter Jane, a law professor currently in Rome. Jane Ginsburg wrote she recently saw an Italian television program postulating that "Shakespeare was Sicilian and Jewish, sort of."
Justice Stevens can indulge his love of the Bard at the Folger Shakespeare Library, a block from the Supreme Court. He says he had a particular brainstorm after learning the library held a Bible that once belonged to de Vere.
"In two of the plays Shakespeare has an incident using the bed trick, in which the man is not aware of the identity of the woman he's sleeping with," Justice Stevens says, referring to "All's Well That Ends Well" and "Measure for Measure." "And there's an incident in the Old Testament where the same event allegedly occurred."
Justice Stevens says he reasoned that if de Vere had borrowed the escapade from his Bible, "he would have underlined those portions of it. So I went over once to ask them to dig out the Bible."
Unfortunately, the passage involving the substitution of Leah for Rachel in Jacob's bed, Genesis 29:23, was not marked. "I really thought I might have stumbled onto something that would be a very strong coincidence," Justice Stevens says. "But it did not develop at all."
Justice Stevens's clerks sometimes find themselves drawn into the debate. Deborah Pearlstein, now a human-rights scholar at Princeton, says the justice was intrigued by her undergraduate study of French-language Shakespeare productions, and asked her to help edit an essay on the authorship dispute.
"It was just great fun," says Ms. Pearlstein. To her, however, the authorship evidence is inconclusive. Besides, "coming off a college education in postmodern literary theory, I was mildly troubled by the 'who-shot-John?' interest in who the real Shakespeare was," she says. "My view is that the work stands on own."
Justice Stevens doesn't disagree. Even if he were proved wrong, he says, "I've had much more serious disappointments in this job than that one."
Personally, I don't think the decision can be enforced due to jurisdictional issues.
I've always thought this as well. :)
What nonsense :bleeding:
That this theory still gets any credence is only evidence taht snobbery's not dead.
But what if de Vere wasn't really de Vere, but an identical impostor who murdered the real de Vere and took his place? Who was the "real Shakespeare' then, huh? If one cannot answer this important question, then bringing up the issue of "the real Shakespeare" at all is absurd.
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 24, 2009, 07:33:34 PM
What nonsense :bleeding:
No shit.
Only thing better than the Edward de Veretards are the ones that think his wife wrote them. :bleeding:
Quote from: Caliga on April 24, 2009, 07:18:13 PM
I've always thought this as well. :)
You would. :rolleyes:
Quote from: mongers on April 24, 2009, 08:07:05 PM
You surprises me, though maybe you perhaps think he might have been a secret catholic ?
His father was Catholic, though that means nothing. I don't think we can say anything about Shakespeare's religious beliefs. His work contains too much. That's the brilliant thing about Shakespeare. I can find and present textual evidence that his religion is probably Catholic; I could do the same to demonstrate that he's a closet atheist.
People have beaten this drum for 90 years and it hasn't stuck, what does Steven's add to the discussion that will make the difference?
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 24, 2009, 08:21:43 PM
People have beaten this drum for 90 years and it hasn't stuck, what does Steven's add to the discussion that will make the difference?
Nothing. Shakespeare is one of those things that people get passionate about and they'll devote their spare time to studying him. It's a really good thing. I hope to be a passionate amateur about something when I'm Stevens' age :)
Also I think the Shakespeare-deniers really need to focus more on the ignorance of Shakespeare. His plays show a lot of knowledge about court and exotic locations (this boils down to some of the stuff in the Merchant of Venice and must be set against the coast of Bohemia), I think an interested commoner could know about that. Especially if he's part of the Lord Chamberlain's Men and then the Queen and King's Men. I think it's far more difficult for an author of de Vere or Bacon's knowledge to fake Shakespeare's ignorance of the Classical world. The plays and poets suggest that Jonson was right, he had little Latin and less Greek.
Ben Jonson, if we didn't know so much about him, would be an ideal candidate to have his stuff actually written by a courtier. Shakespeare's too rough.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 24, 2009, 08:07:22 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 24, 2009, 07:33:34 PM
What nonsense :bleeding:
No shit.
Only thing better than the Edward de Veretards are the ones that think his wife wrote them. :bleeding:
Or the ones that claim that Teddy Roosevelt wrote the plays. But they're being sarcastic, or at least I hope so.
Quote from: Habbaku on April 24, 2009, 11:41:45 PM
Quote from: mongers on April 24, 2009, 08:04:40 PMwroten
:bleeding:
What? That was very clever.
Mongers surprises me like this every once in a while, which is why I don't ignore his posts.
Oh, and what address for Sherlock Holmes does Justice Steven argue for? 221B Baker Street is obviously out, as Baker Street did not extend to the 200s in the late Nineteenth Century.
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 24, 2009, 08:15:48 PM
Quote from: mongers on April 24, 2009, 08:07:05 PM
You surprises me, though maybe you perhaps think he might have been a secret catholic ?
His father was Catholic, though that means nothing. I don't think we can say anything about Shakespeare's religious beliefs. His work contains too much. That's the brilliant thing about Shakespeare. I can find and present textual evidence that his religion is probably Catholic; I could do the same to demonstrate that he's a closet atheist.
I think he was probably a gay lapsed Catholic - they come up with the weirdest shit (see: Wilde, Williams, etc.).
Quote from: Martinus on April 25, 2009, 04:03:21 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 24, 2009, 08:15:48 PM
Quote from: mongers on April 24, 2009, 08:07:05 PM
You surprises me, though maybe you perhaps think he might have been a secret catholic ?
His father was Catholic, though that means nothing. I don't think we can say anything about Shakespeare's religious beliefs. His work contains too much. That's the brilliant thing about Shakespeare. I can find and present textual evidence that his religion is probably Catholic; I could do the same to demonstrate that he's a closet atheist.
I think he was probably a gay lapsed Catholic - they come up with the weirdest shit (see: Wilde, Williams, etc.).
Shocking
Quote from: Razgovory on April 24, 2009, 08:13:23 PM
Quote from: Caliga on April 24, 2009, 07:18:13 PM
I've always thought this as well. :)
You would. :rolleyes:
Assuming that Shakespeare wrote Shakespeare's works is boring. Conspiracy theory is fun. :cool:
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 25, 2009, 08:06:54 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 25, 2009, 04:03:21 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 24, 2009, 08:15:48 PM
Quote from: mongers on April 24, 2009, 08:07:05 PM
You surprises me, though maybe you perhaps think he might have been a secret catholic ?
His father was Catholic, though that means nothing. I don't think we can say anything about Shakespeare's religious beliefs. His work contains too much. That's the brilliant thing about Shakespeare. I can find and present textual evidence that his religion is probably Catholic; I could do the same to demonstrate that he's a closet atheist.
I think he was probably a gay lapsed Catholic - they come up with the weirdest shit (see: Wilde, Williams, etc.).
Shocking
Is anyone disputing Shakespaere's homosexuality or bisexuality these days? I thought it's pretty much an accepted fact.
Quote from: Martinus on April 25, 2009, 08:28:40 AM
Is anyone disputing Shakespaere's homosexuality or bisexuality these days? I thought it's pretty much an accepted fact.
It's generally accepted that Shakespeare was attracted to men.
Edit: And it's worth pointing out how long this idea's been around. By the 18th century Shakespeare's sonnets is like Classical literature. It's cleaned up for public consumption (all the pronouns changed to be acceptable) and the un-altered version is rare. Coleridge devotes an entire lecture to proving that Shakespeare didn't have 'Greek' feelings. When Tennyson writes to a friend that he's a huge fan of the sonnets he's warned that he should keep that private due to their 'Hellenic' tendencies.
This isn't some innovation of modern readings of Shakespeare's work - though the discussion of other possibly gay (in the sense of a man attracted to a man) texts are relatively recent.
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 25, 2009, 08:33:38 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 25, 2009, 08:28:40 AM
Is anyone disputing Shakespaere's homosexuality or bisexuality these days? I thought it's pretty much an accepted fact.
It's generally accepted that Shakespeare was attracted to men.
that's IF he wrote the sonnets, and not some doppleganger.
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 25, 2009, 08:33:38 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 25, 2009, 08:28:40 AM
Is anyone disputing Shakespaere's homosexuality or bisexuality these days? I thought it's pretty much an accepted fact.
It's generally accepted that Shakespeare was attracted to men.
NB that's
men , Mart, not fags.
Quote from: Martinus on April 25, 2009, 08:28:40 AM
Is anyone disputing Shakespaere's homosexuality or bisexuality these days? I thought it's pretty much an accepted fact.
I am.
Quote from: saskganesh on April 25, 2009, 09:45:59 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 25, 2009, 08:33:38 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 25, 2009, 08:28:40 AM
Is anyone disputing Shakespaere's homosexuality or bisexuality these days? I thought it's pretty much an accepted fact.
It's generally accepted that Shakespeare was attracted to men.
that's IF he wrote the sonnets, and not some doppleganger.
Of course. And assuming Francis Bacon didn't write Romeo and Juliet and that the Merchant of Venice was actually post-humously written by Marlowe.
Etchings or it didn't happen.
Quote from: Martinus on April 25, 2009, 08:28:40 AM
Is anyone disputing Shakespaere's homosexuality or bisexuality these days? I thought it's pretty much an accepted fact.
I was commenting more on who brought it up than on his sexuality itself.
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 25, 2009, 08:33:38 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 25, 2009, 08:28:40 AM
Is anyone disputing Shakespaere's homosexuality or bisexuality these days? I thought it's pretty much an accepted fact.
It's generally accepted that Shakespeare was attracted to men.
I thought this was accepted in the same way it was accepted he was Catholic.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 25, 2009, 11:41:27 AM
I thought this was accepted in the same way it was accepted he was Catholic.
Not really. The critical consensus is that Shakespeare was attracted to men, based on the evidence we have in the texts. If he wasn't then at least he shows a strong awareness of sexual attraction to other men. Based on the evidence we have I don't think anyone's ever been able to make a really convincing case for Shakespeare having any particular religious views.
Quote from: The Brain on April 25, 2009, 09:52:42 AM
Etchings or it didn't happen.
lol, good one.
Shakespeare was not a fag. End of story.
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 25, 2009, 12:00:55 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 25, 2009, 11:41:27 AM
I thought this was accepted in the same way it was accepted he was Catholic.
Not really. The critical consensus is that Shakespeare was attracted to men, based on the evidence we have in the texts. If he wasn't then at least he shows a strong awareness of sexual attraction to other men. Based on the evidence we have I don't think anyone's ever been able to make a really convincing case for Shakespeare having any particular religious views.
It could be he was immitating the greeks (as was common at the time).
How can one infer sexuality from someone's writings, short of a remark along the lines of "I am gay"?
Quote from: Warspite on April 26, 2009, 06:32:22 AM
How can one infer sexuality from someone's writings, short of a remark along the lines of "I am gay"?
Writing love poems for another guy.
Quote from: Warspite on April 26, 2009, 06:32:22 AM
How can one infer sexuality from someone's writings, short of a remark along the lines of "I am gay"?
Writing anything that can vaguely be associated with man-man love.
Quote from: Warspite on April 26, 2009, 06:32:22 AM
How can one infer sexuality from someone's writings, short of a remark along the lines of "I am gay"?
1. Start with a conclusion
2. Quote-mine the author's writings, ignoring everything that doesn't fit one's predetermined conclusion.
3. Draw dubious inferences from the vague evidence gained in step 2.
4. Restate conclusion as "proven." Where possible, state that this is also "generally accepted."
Quote from: Warspite on April 26, 2009, 06:32:22 AM
How can one infer sexuality from someone's writings, short of a remark along the lines of "I am gay"?
Well of the roughly 150 sonnets around 130 of them are addressed to the 'master-mistress' of my passion, a young man that we know as as the 'fair youth'. It's the sonnets that have always been controversial after 1640 until the 19th century the pronouns of those 130 sonnets were changed to 'her' and 'she'.
The sonnets are interesting because they have a reputation for being more biographical than most of Shakespeare's writings. He puns a lot on his name and on his wife's name. As I say they had a reputation for Hellenism going back long enough for Coleridge to try and defend Shakespeare agains them.
The other ones that are really remembered are the characters of Antonio and Bassanio in the Merchant of Venice and Mercutio's relationship with Romeo (no suggestion Romeo's gay).
As Harold Bloom put it there are no stronger and more beautiful love poems to a man than in Shakespeare's writings. Of course that doesn't mean he's gay. That's a 20th century invention. It is widely accepted that he was attracted to men, physically as well as intellectually, at least as much as he was to women - from what we have in his writings.
And the thing is that the gay thing doesn't come in to many people's writings. There's no evidence that Middleton, Kyd or Jonson have anything like that (especially not Jonson), or, for that matter, Milton and Sheridan. Swift or Shelley. I'd say there are about 4 writers who people have suspicions about based on what they wrote (and the fact that it can't be shrugged off as 'common for the times'):
Marlowe.
Shakespeare.
Byron.
Tennyson.
Quote from: Martinus on April 25, 2009, 08:28:40 AM
Is anyone disputing Shakespaere's homosexuality or bisexuality these days? I thought it's pretty much an accepted fact.
You can do better than this: the thread is about the dispute of whether Shakespeare the author even existed.