Languish.org

I am just wondering how active religious ministers in your countries are - I suppose the results will vary wildly between Europe, the US and say, Latin America.

All of the above.

The Catholic Church is moderately active in local politics.  They are a large school operator, so they have a lot of things to say on education policy.  And yes, gay rights.  It is a pretty fringe issue here, and most people don't pay attention to these things.  Nevertheless, the trend is to remove anti-gay legacy legislation.  The Church is of course opposed to these changes.  Lastly and perhaps most importantly, the local cardinal is a big personal proponent of democracy.  So he is usually at odds with the pro-Beijing camp on the political set up of HK.  This however is more of a personal thing, rather than official Church policy. 

The HK cardinal has a somewhat special role to play in Sino-Vatican relations.  See, the Catholic Church is officially banned on the mainland, but not in HK.  So in effect, he is the highest official Vatican representative in the entire China, not just HK. 

The results vary widely in the US.  Tard.

Quote from: Monoriu on September 26, 2011, 05:43:52 AMThe HK cardinal has a somewhat special role to play in Sino-Vatican relations.  See, the Catholic Church is officially banned on the mainland, but not in HK.  So in effect, he is the highest official Vatican representative in the entire China, not just HK.

Everyone needs a little bit of Zen :wub:

It really depends where and what you mean Mart.  It varies wildly from area to area and issue to issue and the Church as well.

Yes, I marked all of them as at some time a churchman has involved himself in such matters. But in England the amount of church interference is pretty low, less than it should be perhaps.

Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on September 26, 2011, 06:11:25 AM
But in England the amount of church interference is pretty low, less than it should be perhaps.

You've just signed your death warrant with the Polish Fag Brigade.  HOW DAR YUO

A few days ago, the Pope held a speech in our parliament.

Quote from: Zanza on September 26, 2011, 07:26:43 AM
A few days ago, the Pope held a speech in our parliament.

Isn't he a citizen though?

The churches (Lutheran and Orthodox) in Finland speak on social issues but are not involved in state-level politics. We have a Christian party which is very conservative (oppose same-sex marriage, etc), but quite marginal (4% support among voters in last election). They are actually in the government right now, mainly so that the "True Finns" (nationalists who gained a lot of votes in the last election) could be excluded, and the chairwoman is minister of the interior, but they are basically sidelined on most issues regardless (e.g. the government is preparing a same-sex marriage bill for a vote, despite this party opposing it).

Other:

The people turned their back on the Catholic Church sometime in the 1960s here - and they haven't looked back.  However when the clergy ventures into voicing an opinion - such as last year's declaration against abortion from the Cardinal of Quebec - its members are usually shouted down and ridiculed.




G.

Quote from: Razgovory on September 26, 2011, 07:27:15 AM

Quote from: Zanza on September 26, 2011, 07:26:43 AM
A few days ago, the Pope held a speech in our parliament.

Isn't he a citizen though?

Don't know about the US, but in Europe being a citizen of a country does not give you an automatic right to speak in its Parliament - you need to be elected first.

Quote from: Martinus on September 26, 2011, 07:41:16 AMDon't know about the US, but in Europe being a citizen of a country does not give you an automatic right to speak in its Parliament - you need to be elected first.

Unlike in Europe, we Americans allow anyone, even douchebag toefuckers to speak in Congress if there is a specific enough reason for them.  The PM of Israel, for example, spoke to the full thing only a month or so ago.

I also started a thread because there is a big debate/uproar right now over the clergy telling the faithful from the pulpit which party to vote for (mainly, PiS) and which is the tool of Satan (PO). The upper echelons of the church (bishops and up) pay lip service to the church's neutrality and say the priests should not do that, but are not very fast to censor their underlings when they do.

And on the opposite end, the voices of the people who say that we should abolish church tax breaks and whatnot get stronger and stronger.

On the other hand, a clergyman running for an elected office is unheard of (although we have a black protestant pastor in the Parliament - but I also realize that this split and clergy's neutrality is likely less important/expected when there is no clergy celibacy, so ministers are more like "normal people").

Wow.  I don't know.  I mean there are so many religions and so many clergy members.  I mean we have Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton running around doing political mischief and they are clergy members right?  I am sure there are many in public office as well.

As for Catholic Priests well...one of the most famous populist political figures in American History was Father Charles Coughlin.  Wow was that dude a nutball.  But that was way back before WWII.

Who knows what the Catholics do, but a priest is a citizen like any other, and he can do any of those things, no matter what Polish faggots say.  In Canada, we have laws and civilization.

Generally the Church has and voices opinions on stuff like marriage, education, abortion, stem cell research etc. in Germany. They are one of many groups of society that does that, nothing special.

Quote from: Razgovory on September 26, 2011, 07:27:15 AM

Quote from: Zanza on September 26, 2011, 07:26:43 AM
A few days ago, the Pope held a speech in our parliament.

Isn't he a citizen though?

Yes, he spoke in his role as head of state of the Vatican though.

I'm sure Marty will be happy to know that there is a long tradition in Canada of ministers and churches being involved in the 'progressive' side of politics.  Most noticeably Mr. Medicare himself Tommy Douglas started out as a Baptist minister.  Of course I'm sure viper or someone will be along and tell you about the influence of the Catholic Church in Quebec.

These days its not so much.  It's hard to make any comparison to Poland, because there are few countries left on the planet where a single church which is independent of the government has such sway over such a large % of the population.  In Canada there are various churches who speak out on issues of both the left and the right.

In churches I've attended, certainly the preacher will speak from the pulpit on certain issues, but none has ever endorsed a specific candidate or party that I'm aware of, nor run for office or lead a protest.  But, clearly, other churches are different in those regards.  There's no correct answer for this in America (even "all of the above won't work, because it implies that all of these things are done in all churches, while there are some in the US that don't do any of them), and even asking the question would seem to indicate a lack of understanding of just how diverse the US, and religion in the US, really is.

EDIT:  well, I guess "other" fits, but that really doesn't  tell you anything, does it?

Quote from: dps on September 26, 2011, 10:23:10 AM
EDIT:  well, I guess "other" fits, but that really doesn't  tell you anything, does it?

It's not like Marti really cares about the poll results, he just thought he had found a way to rail against his two favorite things: religion and the US.

Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on September 26, 2011, 06:11:25 AM
Yes, I marked all of them as at some time a churchman has involved himself in such matters. But in England the amount of church interference is pretty low, less than it should be perhaps.

I agree.  I think the media aren't interested/treat the CofE with disdain.  Rowan's comments are normally worth reading and pretty thoughtful (very CofE) and Archbishop Sentamu's always worth listening to.

I think what's missing is a good Catholic voice in this country.  I don't know if England's had one since Basil Hume, Cormac was just insipid and Vincent Nicholls not done much better.  Scotland's not had someone of Cardinal Winning's stature since he died.  For whatever reason (I think because the Catholics still see themselves as outsiders) the comments from that Church tend to be a bit more prickly, interesting and well-reported.

Jonathan Sacks is always worth it too.

Quote from: dps on September 26, 2011, 10:23:10 AM
In churches I've attended, certainly the preacher will speak from the pulpit on certain issues, but none has ever endorsed a specific candidate or party that I'm aware of, nor run for office or lead a protest.  But, clearly, other churches are different in those regards.  There's no correct answer for this in America (even "all of the above won't work, because it implies that all of these things are done in all churches, while there are some in the US that don't do any of them), and even asking the question would seem to indicate a lack of understanding of just how diverse the US, and religion in the US, really is.

EDIT:  well, I guess "other" fits, but that really doesn't  tell you anything, does it?

I'm not sure it's legal for a church to publicly endorse a candidate and keep it's tax status.  I may be wrong there.

Quote from: Martinus on September 26, 2011, 05:35:50 AM
I am just wondering how active religious ministers in your countries are - I suppose the results will vary wildly between Europe, the US and say, Latin America.

They support specific policies & issues, like anti-gay marriage, anti-abortion, etc.
At least one priest ran in an election recently, but he was pulled by the Vatican, having to choose between priesthood or politics, not both.  He had some weird ideas about religion where Jesus loves everyone, even gays and aborted women, so that was incompatible with politics, where only the crazy ones are allowed to do politics.

Quote from: Razgovory on September 26, 2011, 01:49:43 PM

Quote from: dps on September 26, 2011, 10:23:10 AM
In churches I've attended, certainly the preacher will speak from the pulpit on certain issues, but none has ever endorsed a specific candidate or party that I'm aware of, nor run for office or lead a protest.  But, clearly, other churches are different in those regards.  There's no correct answer for this in America (even "all of the above won't work, because it implies that all of these things are done in all churches, while there are some in the US that don't do any of them), and even asking the question would seem to indicate a lack of understanding of just how diverse the US, and religion in the US, really is.

EDIT:  well, I guess "other" fits, but that really doesn't  tell you anything, does it?

I'm not sure it's legal for a church to publicly endorse a candidate and keep it's tax status.  I may be wrong there.

I'm not sure that a church, as an institution, can do so, but individual clergymen certainly can and have.

Quote from: Grallon on September 26, 2011, 07:40:05 AM
Other:

The people turned their back on the Catholic Church sometime in the 1960s here - and they haven't looked back.  However when the clergy ventures into voicing an opinion - such as last year's declaration against abortion from the Cardinal of Quebec - its members are usually shouted down and ridiculed.




G.

they do that every year or two, with the same result.

Quote from: Martinus on September 26, 2011, 07:44:30 AM
I also started a thread because there is a big debate/uproar right now over the clergy telling the faithful from the pulpit which party to vote for (mainly, PiS) and which is the tool of Satan (PO).

Western protestant churches do that all the time, and they even have their members in key position of the government.
They had a site last election, listing all "ok" candidates based on issues like abortion&gay marriage.  It's not the kind of thing you'd see with the Catholic Church in this country though, and that's a big no-no for Quebec.

The Fundamentalistes tell their members whom they should vote for, they organize rally to support their agenda, they lobby the Federal governement and have access to key ministers&MPs in the government.

Quote from: Barrister on September 26, 2011, 08:16:27 AM
Of course I'm sure viper or someone will be along and tell you about the influence of the Catholic Church in Quebec.

currently it's between zero to none ;)
It ain't the 50s anymore.

Quote from: dps on September 26, 2011, 02:23:53 PM


I'm not sure that a church, as an institution, can do so, but individual clergymen certainly can and have.

That is probably true.  My experience has been they say, "don't vote for someone who is for such and such" and then give out voter guides to say who is actually for such and such.  This apparently allows them to skirt the law.

When I was a kid, the local parish was heavily involved in sending missionaries down to Peru.  Somehow they got mixed up with the Shining Path loonies.  God knows how that happened.

I've never been told anything political in church when I was growing up. Things could be different now.

The Church tries actively to push their agenda. I don't know if they have ever explicitly endorsed a candidate (I don't attend mass or listen to their radio channel), but PP is the logical choice. There are nuttier alternatives but we are a two-party nation.

Quote from: Valmy on September 26, 2011, 07:51:20 AM
As for Catholic Priests well...one of the most famous populist political figures in American History was Father Charles Coughlin.  Wow was that dude a nutball.  But that was way back before WWII.

After WW2, Father Berrigan.