Or why is the American debt ceiling debacle similar to the Eurozone debacle.
Consider this (and this may be my worst analogy ever, so bear with me).
1. Both the US debt ceiling crisis and the Eurozone crisis were caused by someone else. In the US case, these were previous, non-TP governments. In the Eurozone, these were, ostensibly, the PIIGS.
2. Both the TP and Germany have a legitimate gripe with the crisis - and this relates to the fiscal responsibility of others (the federal government and the PIIGS, respectively).
3. Both have, despite these legitimate gripes, benefited to an extent politically or economically from the past situation. The TP from Bush's unwarranted tax cuts, Germany from huge tariff-free, same currency markets.
4. Both have ignored in the past the cause of the gripes. The TP for supporting costly, irresponsible endeavors (like the said tax cuts, or fighting wars on two fronts - or at least by voting for neocons who did that), Germany by looking away when Greece was cooking its books (see 3 above) or the PIIGS otherwise fucking with their fiscal policies.
5. Both have in their hands, politically, the future of their respective structures (the health of the US budget, the very existence of the Eurozone). Both insist on (or at least posture to appear that they are, for political reasons) taking a "principled" stance ("We won't raise taxes to balance the budget." "We won't pay any euro more to bail out the PIIGS") which may result in an economical catastrophe.
So why is the TP derided as being irresponsible, and Germany's stance is met with approval and sympathy? What's the difference between a TP taxpayer not willing to pay for the bailout of the US federal budget and a German taxpayer not willing to pay for a bailout of Greece (aka the entire Eurozone)?
Sometimes you have to pay someone else's bills if your only sin is that of omission - sorry, that's how it is. It is not a time for being principled and causing a complete ruin. Deal with it, Germans.
The "Tea Party" is made up of a bunch of different groups. It's not just one political party or whatever.
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on September 17, 2011, 03:06:12 AM
The "Tea Party" is made up of a bunch of different groups. It's not just one political party or whatever.
Well, Germany also has different parties in it. I was just taking the stance of both as a uniform one.
Quote from: Martinus on September 17, 2011, 03:08:40 AM
Well, Germany also has different parties in it. I was just taking the stance of both as a uniform one.
Sure, but I'm drunk, so none of that matters. I'm busy latching on to one part of the post because that's all I can handle right now. :P
Germany gets good press for its role in the Euro crisis?
Well, the Tea Party consists mostly racist lunatics. It so happens that they want austerity (I think their mob wants it because they don't realize it would cut back on their white trash lifestyle as well).
Germany is a responsibly-budgeting economic powerhouse, which was foolish enough to let it white trash cousins, the PIIGS spend the family silverware on booze and drugs, and now trying to save the house, as the PIIGS started cutting it down for timber.
Ok, so it is not about the merits of their respective arguments, but how palpable they are? Gotcha. Thought so.
Quote from: Martinus on September 17, 2011, 03:45:59 AM
Ok, so it is not about the merits of their respective arguments, but how palpable they are? Gotcha. Thought so.
Not really. In a lot of ways I agree with what the Tea Party wants economically. Which is, by the way, quite the opposite of how Germany works, what with state healthcare and such. (this is where your comparison dies). [yoda]Germany does not with laisez faire equals[/yoda]
But the thing is, Tea Party is not just about laisez faire. They are about racism, bigottry, and ludditism. Those are the things which keep a lot of people away I am sure.
Quote from: Zanza on September 17, 2011, 03:14:57 AM
Germany gets good press for its role in the Euro crisis?
That's what I was thinking. :lol:
Quote from: The Larch on September 17, 2011, 04:07:30 AM
Quote from: Zanza on September 17, 2011, 03:14:57 AM
Germany gets good press for its role in the Euro crisis?
That's what I was thinking. :lol:
Maybe in Polish media? :hmm:
Quote from: Tamas on September 17, 2011, 03:41:33 AM
Well, the Tea Party consists mostly racist lunatics. It so happens that they want austerity (I think their mob wants it because they don't realize it would cut back on their white trash lifestyle as well).
So where are you getting the impression that the Tea Party movement is mostly racist and also white trash?
I wonder why Marti bothers.
I think an important difference is that Germany will be expected to bail the Med out to a much greater extent than the average white trash member of the Tea Party will be expected to sacrifice for the sake of the US budget deficit. Also, Germany's stand is against Southern Europeans, who are very unlikeable, while the Tea Party is full of people who themselves are not likeable, like Christian lunatics, goldbugs and robber barons.
The Germans have resisted the urge to go in historical dress. For which we should all be thankful.
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 17, 2011, 10:39:33 AM
The Germans have resisted the urge to go in historical dress. For which we should all be thankful.
Only because their constitution bans swastikas.
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 17, 2011, 10:39:33 AM
The Germans have resisted the urge to go in historical dress. For which we should all be thankful.
Don't be stupid
Be a schmarty
Come and join
The Tea Party
Quote from: Viking on September 17, 2011, 10:44:59 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 17, 2011, 10:39:33 AM
The Germans have resisted the urge to go in historical dress. For which we should all be thankful.
Don't be stupid
Be a schmarty
Come and join
The Tea Party
Somebody was inspired by the recent Lettow thread.
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 17, 2011, 10:39:33 AM
The Germans have resisted the urge to go in historical dress. For which we should all be thankful.
I'd love a Prussian helmet.
Quote from: Ed Anger on September 17, 2011, 10:48:10 AM
Quote from: Viking on September 17, 2011, 10:44:59 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 17, 2011, 10:39:33 AM
The Germans have resisted the urge to go in historical dress. For which we should all be thankful.
Don't be stupid
Be a schmarty
Come and join
The Tea Party
Somebody was inspired by the recent Lettow thread.
eh? What does a "The Producers" reference have to do with Lettow's Czech and Nipponese Poetry?
The difference is that Germany has renounced fascism.
Quote from: DGuller on September 17, 2011, 12:17:19 PM
The difference is that Germany has renounced fascism.
How is that the difference? The tea party precepts seem to be antithetical to fascism.
The crony capitalism of the Old Guard in both parties seems to be closer to fascism.
Quote from: citizen k on September 17, 2011, 01:15:44 PM
Quote from: DGuller on September 17, 2011, 12:17:19 PM
The difference is that Germany has renounced fascism.
How is that the difference? The tea party precepts seem to be antithetical to fascism.
The crony capitalism of the Old Guard in both parties seems to be closer to fascism.
I think he was referring to Lettow and his poetry. :P
Quote from: citizen k on September 17, 2011, 01:15:44 PM
Quote from: DGuller on September 17, 2011, 12:17:19 PM
The difference is that Germany has renounced fascism.
How is that the difference? The tea party precepts seem to be antithetical to fascism.
The crony capitalism of the Old Guard in both parties seems to be closer to fascism.
Precepts may be, but the actual Tea Party is anything but.
uhhhh
All right. The next time there is a Tea Party rally, I'm going to go to see if any of that stuff is actually true.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on September 17, 2011, 01:47:20 PM
uhhhh
All right. The next time there is a Tea Party rally, I'm going to go to see if any of that stuff is actually true.
We already know you go to Tea Party rallies.
Quote from: Razgovory on September 17, 2011, 01:56:11 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on September 17, 2011, 01:47:20 PM
uhhhh
All right. The next time there is a Tea Party rally, I'm going to go to see if any of that stuff is actually true.
We already know you go to Tea Party rallies.
Yeah, I'll be rockin' with Glenn Beck and Siegebreaker.
Quote from: DGuller on September 17, 2011, 12:17:19 PM
The difference is that Germany has renounced fascism.
Some of the bad press Germany got during this crisis directly alluded to a Fourth Reich.
Fascism is just an ad-hom in modern times.
I would generally agree, but some of the more hysterical EU criticism seems to see the EU as being pretty close to the real thing.
Has there anyone seriously suggested the Eurozone is a Neonazi scheme to dominate Europe? Other than insane conspiracy theorists, I mean.
Unlike what Marti seems to think Germany does bear some responsibility in this whole mess, but let's not go overboard.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on September 17, 2011, 02:10:37 PM
Fascism is just an ad-hom in modern times.
Yep. It's an intellectually-lazy way for DG to tar people he disagrees with. I would question if he knew what it actually meant, but I know he isn't that stupid. That's what makes it difficult to understand why he thinks the TP is for "fascism."
I would guess it has a lot to do with where Marty gets his news. The international financial press is not prone to demonize ideological opponents.
I just realized something about the Tea Party that makes reasonably good sense.. the Tea-Baggers almost certainly are not aware of it...
Now, what the original Tea Party was protesting was the importation of Tea from the East India Company on the grounds that the only remaining tax to pay for the French and Indian War on the North American Colonies was the stamp duty on Tea. Now, the reasons the stamp duty on Tea remained were two fold. First of all the British Parliament had acceded to the petition of the Albany Congress (iirc) to repeal the duties on imports to and from North America on reasonable grounds, but left the symbolic stamp duty on tea to maintain it's right to tax all British Subjects. Second of all Parliament was bailing out the East India Company and since the North American colonies were not paying for that bailout they felt it was only fair that the North Americans not get the bounty of cheap tea the bailout was creating.
So, Teabaggery makes sense only in the sense that they are against bailouts on principle.
Quote from: Iormlund on September 17, 2011, 02:32:13 PMHas there anyone seriously suggested the Eurozone is a Neonazi scheme to dominate Europe? Other than insane conspiracy theorists, I mean.
Not in respectable media as far as I know, but certainly in tabloids and similar media.
Quote from: Iormlund on September 17, 2011, 02:32:13 PM
Has there anyone seriously suggested the Eurozone is a Neonazi scheme to dominate Europe? Other than insane conspiracy theorists, I mean.
Unlike what Marti seems to think Germany does bear some responsibility in this whole mess, but let's not go overboard.
Insane conspiracy theories are fairly rampant in southern Europe. Several countries in recent years have played the Nazi card to embarrass Germany into doing what they want. I don't think it's going to work for much longer, if it works at all now.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on September 17, 2011, 02:10:37 PM
Fascism is just an ad-hom in modern times.
Even in the 40s Orwell said it had become devalued and worthless as a political term.
Only when the Germans are involved. Our Eurosceptic press has indulged in Fourth Reich talk a bit.
But for the rabid anti-EU types they like Soviet hyerbole. So EUSSR, Commissar for Commissioner and so on. I admire their creativity.
Quote from: Razgovory on September 17, 2011, 04:54:28 PM
Insane conspiracy theories are fairly rampant in southern Europe. Several countries in recent years have played the Nazi card to embarrass Germany into doing what they want. I don't think it's going to work for much longer, if it works at all now.
In southern Europe? Aren't they all former fascists themselves? Even the Irish are tainted by their love of terrorism.
Quote from: Razgovory on September 17, 2011, 01:56:11 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on September 17, 2011, 01:47:20 PM
uhhhh
All right. The next time there is a Tea Party rally, I'm going to go to see if any of that stuff is actually true.
We already know you go to Tea Party rallies.
He's worried Obama's gonna take his guns.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 17, 2011, 08:10:35 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on September 17, 2011, 01:56:11 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on September 17, 2011, 01:47:20 PM
uhhhh
All right. The next time there is a Tea Party rally, I'm going to go to see if any of that stuff is actually true.
We already know you go to Tea Party rallies.
He's worried Obama's gonna take his guns.
Harry Reid will protect me. :)
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 17, 2011, 07:16:05 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on September 17, 2011, 02:10:37 PM
Fascism is just an ad-hom in modern times.
Even in the 40s Orwell said it had become devalued and worthless as a political term.
Only when the Germans are involved. Our Eurosceptic press has indulged in Fourth Reich talk a bit.
But for the rabid anti-EU types they like Soviet hyerbole. So EUSSR, Commissar for Commissioner and so on. I admire their creativity.
American conservatives use both. Often interchangeably.
Quote from: Razgovory on September 17, 2011, 09:10:20 PM
American conservatives use both. Often interchangeably.
Yes because they've both been reduced to ad-homs, and also because they are functionally interchangeable anyway.
Quote from: derspiess on September 17, 2011, 09:00:12 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 17, 2011, 03:41:33 AM
Well, the Tea Party consists mostly racist lunatics. It so happens that they want austerity (I think their mob wants it because they don't realize it would cut back on their white trash lifestyle as well).
So where are you getting the impression that the Tea Party movement is mostly racist and also white trash?
That's the impression I've gotten, and I live here, and have met people who embrace it. It's a stereotype for a reason.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on September 17, 2011, 09:14:21 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on September 17, 2011, 09:10:20 PM
American conservatives use both. Often interchangeably.
Yes because they've both been reduced to ad-homs, and also because they are functionally interchangeable anyway.
Only for idiots.
That's it, I'm voting for Perry.
Quote from: Siege on September 17, 2011, 11:31:28 PM
That's it, I'm voting for Perry.
It doesn't matter. Your party's mismanagement, foolishness, and bigotry have relegated them to the dustbin of history. I predict Democratic presidencies for the next twenty years.
The Tea Party, unlike the German political classes, have gone in for some strange conspiracy theory and birther nonsense.
It's one thing to take a strict line on financial issues (rightly or wrongly) and quite another to AT THE SAME TIME accomodate the flotsam and jetsam rantings of oddballs and cranks.
Quote from: Iormlund on September 17, 2011, 02:32:13 PM
Unlike what Marti seems to think Germany does bear some responsibility in this whole mess, but let's not go overboard.
Why "unlike what Marti seems to think"? Where did I say Germany does not bear responsibility?
You specifically mention Germany is only guilty of omission. That's hardly true. Germany was also the driving force behind the low interest rates that fueled the bubbles in Ireland or Spain, it completely discredited the Stability Pact many eons ago and finally their banks should bear responsibility as investors in said countries.
Quote from: Siege on September 17, 2011, 11:31:28 PM
That's it, I'm voting for Perry.
Then you better convert.