Languish.org

I was immediately sick to my stomach when I read this article. Italy consistently shocks and sickens me with their medieval view of the world.

QuoteRome. A court in Italy has ruled that the 70 and 57-year old parents of a toddler are "too old" and selfish to raise her and have recommended she be put up for adoption, Italian media reported on Friday.

The 18-month old girl, known as "Viola," was conceived with the help of artificial insemination after the couple's repeated applications to adopt a child were turned down on the basis that they were too old.

"They never thought about the fact that their daughter would be orphaned at a very young age, and before that would be forced to care for her elderly parents," ruled four judges in a Turin court in northern Italy.

The child is "the fruit of a distorted application of the enormous possibilities offered by genetic progress," they said.

The couple were reported to social services by neighbors after they left the infant alone in a car for a few minutes late one evening, and "Viola" was immediately taken into care.

The judges ruled that librarian Gabriella De Ambrosis and her retired husband Luigi were driven by "a narcissistic need to have a child" and showed "indifference with regard to the child's perspective."

The couple, who married in 1990 when Gabrielle was 36 and spent years trying to conceive naturally, are planning to appeal the ruling, their lawyer said.

Agence France-Presse

Orphaned at a young age?  The mother is 57.  How soon do people die over there?  The court might be right depending on other factors but on its surface this seems absurd.

Well they better come and apprehend my kid because I've left him alone in the car for a few minutes before.

Quote from: Barrister on September 16, 2011, 09:43:59 AM
Well they better come and apprehend my kid because I've left him alone in the car for a few minutes before.

Well right are we talking 5 minutes or like 20 minutes? 

I agree that said individuals should not have been helped to have a child.  They certainly would have been barred from adopting a kid.

Are you retarded? How is this view "medieval"? Not everything you disagree with is "medieval". In fact, this seems like a very progressive/technocratic move - quite the opposite of the feudal/medieval stress on family ties.

Anyway, basing parental authority on genetics is a rather outdated concept. I voted that the court was right.

Quote from: Valmy on September 16, 2011, 09:44:38 AM

Quote from: Barrister on September 16, 2011, 09:43:59 AM
Well they better come and apprehend my kid because I've left him alone in the car for a few minutes before.

Well right are we talking 5 minutes or like 20 minutes?

Well... I've left him in there a couple of times for lengthy periods when he was sleeping (and badly needed to sleep), but I was always so nervous I'd run out and check on him every 5 minutes (and he was in our own driveway), but mostly I was thinking of running into a store quickly for 2 minutes when I know the baby'd much prefer to just stay there playing with his toys than to be unbuckled dragged into the store, then buckled up again.

QuoteThe couple were reported to social services by neighbors after they left the infant alone in a car for a few minutes late one evening, and "Viola" was immediately taken into care.

It's spelled "voila".  :rolleyes:

Horrifying. :(

Quote from: Martinus on September 16, 2011, 09:47:21 AM
Are you retarded? How is this view "medieval"? Not everything you disagree with is "medieval". In fact, this seems like a very progressive/technocratic move - quite the opposite of the feudal/medieval stress on family ties.

Medieval in terms of the idea that those in power have absolute control over what happens to the "serfs" they govern.

QuoteAnyway, basing parental authority on genetics is a rather outdated concept. I voted that the court was right.

I'm shocked by this. Absolutely stunned. :mellow:

Quote from: Martinus on September 16, 2011, 09:47:21 AM
Are you retarded? How is this view "medieval"? Not everything you disagree with is "medieval". In fact, this seems like a very progressive/technocratic move - quite the opposite of the feudal/medieval stress on family ties.

Wow.

All power to the Nomenclatura eh?

Quote from: merithyn on September 16, 2011, 09:39:17 AM
The judges ruled that librarian Gabriella De Ambrosis and her retired husband Luigi were driven by "a narcissistic need to have a child" and showed "indifference with regard to the child's perspective."

So the child would have preferred to have never been born? :huh:

I hope someone takes Merrithyn's kids away from her. Like, her obviously more responsible ex-husband.

Quote from: Barrister on September 16, 2011, 09:52:30 AM

Quote from: merithyn on September 16, 2011, 09:39:17 AM
The judges ruled that librarian Gabriella De Ambrosis and her retired husband Luigi were driven by "a narcissistic need to have a child" and showed "indifference with regard to the child's perspective."

So the child would have preferred to have never been born? :huh:

That's how I feel about quite a few Languishites.

Quote from: merithyn on September 16, 2011, 09:51:55 AM
Medieval in terms of the idea that those in power have absolute control over what happens to the "serfs" they govern.

Then you are misusing the term and your definition has no basis in history.  How medieval.

Quote from: Valmy on September 16, 2011, 09:52:12 AM

Quote from: Martinus on September 16, 2011, 09:47:21 AM
Are you retarded? How is this view "medieval"? Not everything you disagree with is "medieval". In fact, this seems like a very progressive/technocratic move - quite the opposite of the feudal/medieval stress on family ties.

Wow.

All power to the Nomenclatura eh?

"Progressive" is not a value statement. It's a factual statement.

Just like "medieval" for that matter.

Quote from: Barrister on September 16, 2011, 09:52:30 AM

Quote from: merithyn on September 16, 2011, 09:39:17 AM
The judges ruled that librarian Gabriella De Ambrosis and her retired husband Luigi were driven by “a narcissistic need to have a child” and showed “indifference with regard to the child’s perspective.”

So the child would have preferred to have never been born? :huh:

well if it was never born it wouldn't have a preference either way :P

Kid shouldn't be taken away, but yes the parents are selfish.

Quote from: Martinus on September 16, 2011, 09:54:05 AM
That's how I feel about quite a few Languishites.

You wish you had never been born about a few Languishites?

I support mandatory sterilization at age 40.  Eh, fuck it, make it age 12.

Quote from: PDH on September 16, 2011, 09:54:34 AM

Quote from: merithyn on September 16, 2011, 09:51:55 AM
Medieval in terms of the idea that those in power have absolute control over what happens to the "serfs" they govern.

Then you are misusing the term and your definition has no basis in history.  How medieval.

:D

Quote from: ulmont on September 16, 2011, 09:55:46 AM
I support mandatory sterilization at age 40.  Eh, fuck it, make it age 12.

I think all children should be taken away from their parents and taught by the wisemen. Preferably in some remote location I cannot see or hear.

The state should encourage non-procreational sexual activities and only people with a special permit should bear children.

Quote from: ulmont on September 16, 2011, 09:55:46 AM
I support mandatory sterilization at age 40.  Eh, fuck it, make it age 12.

Wasn't this couple for all intents and purposes sterile before fertility treatments?

Speaking of which, a couple of weeks ago a work colleague of mine came into my office and announced, with a huge grin, that after months of trying artificial insemination, his wife is now pregnant.

I was like UHM TMI?  :yuk:

Quote from: Martinus on September 16, 2011, 09:57:56 AM


I think all children should be taken away from their parents and taught by the wisemen. Preferably in some remote location I cannot see or hear.

Grallon is wondering where he can sign up :P

obvious yes, but someone was going to say it.

Quote from: Martinus on September 16, 2011, 10:07:58 AM

I was like UHM TMI?  :yuk:

really? you've got breeder issues :lol:

Meri, have you been taking classes on how to sound provincial by master teacher Tyr?

They are too old to have been helped to have a child but the deed is done, too late now.

Quote from: Grey Fox on September 16, 2011, 10:17:51 AM
Meri, have you been taking classes on how to sound provincial by master teacher Tyr?

They are too old to have been helped to have a child but the deed is done, too late now.

I agree that the doctor who allowed this to happen was very wrong to help them. However, to take a child away from his/her parents is horrorific unless the parents have done something heinous. Simply giving birth at an older age does not, in my opinion, fall into that category.

Quote from: Grey Fox on September 16, 2011, 10:17:51 AM
Meri, have you been taking classes on how to sound provincial by master teacher Tyr?

They are too old to have been helped to have a child but the deed is done, too late now.

Well I think the state should have a better reason to start forcing people to give up their kids besides that what they did sounds like a really bad idea.  People should be allowed to make bad decisions, and unless there is some evidence the kid is suffering (as opposed to might maybe suffer) the court should let well enough alone.

But that is our values.  Italy is different and maybe over there this sort of thing is expected.  In which case this couple should have known better.

On the other hand this is the 21st century and women in their 40s and 50s are having kids now.  In fact they almost sorta have to considering the problems kids can pose in advancing your career.  Considerations for career are not necessarily selfish and hey I thought reproductive rights were some sort of super feminist issue or whatever.  It does strike me as a tad backwards and old fashioned to think an older couple having a kid is outrageous.

Quote from: Valmy on September 16, 2011, 10:40:59 AM
But that is our values.  Italy is different and maybe over there this sort of thing is expected.  In which case this couple should have known better.

:mellow:

You've got to be kidding me.

Quote from: Martinus on September 16, 2011, 09:55:12 AM

Quote from: Valmy on September 16, 2011, 09:52:12 AM

Quote from: Martinus on September 16, 2011, 09:47:21 AM
Are you retarded? How is this view "medieval"? Not everything you disagree with is "medieval". In fact, this seems like a very progressive/technocratic move - quite the opposite of the feudal/medieval stress on family ties.

Wow.

All power to the Nomenclatura eh?

"Progressive" is not a value statement. It's a factual statement.

Counterfactual in this case, but hey. 

The best adjective in this case is neither "medieval" or "progressive", it's probably "presumptive".  Though other adjectives would fit, too, such as "overbearing", "illogical", or just plain "stupid".  "Tyrannical" could probably fit too, but that's a bit of a loaded term.

Quote from: merithyn on September 16, 2011, 10:57:34 AM

Quote from: Valmy on September 16, 2011, 10:40:59 AM
But that is our values.  Italy is different and maybe over there this sort of thing is expected.  In which case this couple should have known better.

:mellow:

You've got to be kidding me.

Natural result of cultural relativism.

Quote from: dps on September 16, 2011, 11:19:50 AM

Quote from: merithyn on September 16, 2011, 10:57:34 AM

Quote from: Valmy on September 16, 2011, 10:40:59 AM
But that is our values.  Italy is different and maybe over there this sort of thing is expected.  In which case this couple should have known better.

:mellow:

You've got to be kidding me.

Natural result of cultural relativism.

I don't think it is cultural relativism to point out that if you don't want to get fucked over, don't do things that your society disapproves of.  That doesn't make a society's values any less reprehensible.

Quote from: Martinus on September 16, 2011, 09:57:56 AM
I think all children should be taken away from their parents and taught by the wisemen. Preferably in some remote location I cannot see or hear.

That's the Russian in you talking.

Quote from: garbon on September 16, 2011, 11:25:08 AM

Quote from: dps on September 16, 2011, 11:19:50 AM

Quote from: merithyn on September 16, 2011, 10:57:34 AM

Quote from: Valmy on September 16, 2011, 10:40:59 AM
But that is our values.  Italy is different and maybe over there this sort of thing is expected.  In which case this couple should have known better.

:mellow:

You've got to be kidding me.

Natural result of cultural relativism.

I don't think it is cultural relativism to point out that if you don't want to get fucked over, don't do things that your society disapproves of.  That doesn't make a society's values any less reprehensible.

Fair enough, but in that case Valmy is assuming that there is a strong cultural taboo in Italy against older parents, or some established legal precedent.  That may be the case, but it's purely speculative--there's nothing in the article to support that idea, unless I missed something.  Which I might have--I just skimmed it.

old people should not have sex and thus should not have children. it's that simple :contract: :P

Quote from: Barrister on September 16, 2011, 09:50:23 AM

Quote from: Valmy on September 16, 2011, 09:44:38 AM

Quote from: Barrister on September 16, 2011, 09:43:59 AM
Well they better come and apprehend my kid because I've left him alone in the car for a few minutes before.

Well right are we talking 5 minutes or like 20 minutes?

Well... I've left him in there a couple of times for lengthy periods when he was sleeping (and badly needed to sleep), but I was always so nervous I'd run out and check on him every 5 minutes (and he was in our own driveway), but mostly I was thinking of running into a store quickly for 2 minutes when I know the baby'd much prefer to just stay there playing with his toys than to be unbuckled dragged into the store, then buckled up again.

Wow. I would never do that. Would be terrified someone would come along and help themselves to my kid.

Quote from: Berkut on September 16, 2011, 11:42:25 AM
Wow. I would never do that. Would be terrified someone would come along and help themselves to my kid.

I think there's less of a fear-based society up here.

Quote from: dps on September 16, 2011, 11:38:31 AM
Fair enough, but in that case Valmy is assuming that there is a strong cultural taboo in Italy against older parents, or some established legal precedent.  That may be the case, but it's purely speculative--there's nothing in the article to support that idea, unless I missed something.  Which I might have--I just skimmed it.

True, I think he may be making unwarranted assumptions although I wouldn't be surprised if Italy is against artificial insemination as being monstrous.

Quote from: merithyn on September 16, 2011, 10:57:34 AM

Quote from: Valmy on September 16, 2011, 10:40:59 AM
But that is our values.  Italy is different and maybe over there this sort of thing is expected.  In which case this couple should have known better.

:mellow:

You've got to be kidding me.

I was saying they should have expected it, if indeed, that is normal.  Not that I think this is awesome.

Quote from: Berkut on September 16, 2011, 11:42:25 AM

Quote from: Barrister on September 16, 2011, 09:50:23 AM

Quote from: Valmy on September 16, 2011, 09:44:38 AM

Quote from: Barrister on September 16, 2011, 09:43:59 AM
Well they better come and apprehend my kid because I've left him alone in the car for a few minutes before.

Well right are we talking 5 minutes or like 20 minutes?

Well... I've left him in there a couple of times for lengthy periods when he was sleeping (and badly needed to sleep), but I was always so nervous I'd run out and check on him every 5 minutes (and he was in our own driveway), but mostly I was thinking of running into a store quickly for 2 minutes when I know the baby'd much prefer to just stay there playing with his toys than to be unbuckled dragged into the store, then buckled up again.

Wow. I would never do that. Would be terrified someone would come along and help themselves to my kid.

I don't know about upstate new york, but in Alberta our car doors have locks.

Quote from: dps on September 16, 2011, 11:38:31 AM
Fair enough, but in that case Valmy is assuming that there is a strong cultural taboo in Italy against older parents, or some established legal precedent.  That may be the case, but it's purely speculative--there's nothing in the article to support that idea, unless I missed something.  Which I might have--I just skimmed it.

Hence why I said maybe.  I was speculating.

Quote from: garbon on September 16, 2011, 11:25:08 AM
I don't think it is cultural relativism to point out that if you don't want to get fucked over, don't do things that your society disapproves of.  That doesn't make a society's values any less reprehensible.

Bingo.

If you get caught stealing in Saudi Arabia you should expect to get your hand chopped off.

Lots of kids have been in effect raised by their grandparents due to circumstances. I know of once case where grandparents are raising a daughter's kid because the daughter is incapable and the father is unknown.

I dunno why social services ought to get involved in such cases, other than actual neglect or abuse.

Quote from: Barrister on September 16, 2011, 11:50:44 AM

Quote from: Berkut on September 16, 2011, 11:42:25 AM

Quote from: Barrister on September 16, 2011, 09:50:23 AM

Quote from: Valmy on September 16, 2011, 09:44:38 AM

Quote from: Barrister on September 16, 2011, 09:43:59 AM
Well they better come and apprehend my kid because I've left him alone in the car for a few minutes before.

Well right are we talking 5 minutes or like 20 minutes?

Well... I've left him in there a couple of times for lengthy periods when he was sleeping (and badly needed to sleep), but I was always so nervous I'd run out and check on him every 5 minutes (and he was in our own driveway), but mostly I was thinking of running into a store quickly for 2 minutes when I know the baby'd much prefer to just stay there playing with his toys than to be unbuckled dragged into the store, then buckled up again.

Wow. I would never do that. Would be terrified someone would come along and help themselves to my kid.

I don't know about upstate new york, but in Alberta our car doors have locks.

If someone is interested in kidnapping, a lock on your car door is not going to stop them.

Quote from: Malthus on September 16, 2011, 12:10:36 PM
Lots of kids have been in effect raised by their grandparents due to circumstances. I know of once case where grandparents are raising a daughter's kid because the daughter is incapable and the father is unknown.

I dunno why social services ought to get involved in such cases, other than actual neglect or abuse.

I think the court seems to think the very fact this older couple did this is some sort of abuse.  Though putting it up for adoption is pretty radical because in most abuse cases they do not do that immediately right?  They go into Foster care for a bit and the parents get a chance to get their kid back.

Quote from: Berkut on September 16, 2011, 12:11:04 PM
If someone is interested in kidnapping, a lock on your car door is not going to stop them.

If someone is interested in kidnapping, nothing is going to stop them.  There has been a lot of publicity in this corner of the world about a little 3 year old boy that was abducted out of his bedroom.  Of course that led to massive publicity, and for reasons not yet made public they had a suspect right away and there were numerous appeals for him to return the child - which he actually did returning the child back to his bedroom one night.

But anyways, such cases of stranger child kidnapping are so incredibly rare, and I live in a really boring but utlra-safe suburban community, that I'm not terribly worried about it.

I was more worried about him waking up, realizing no one was nearby, and him screaming his head off. :(

They shouldn't have been allowed IVF in my view, but now they've had it having two parents is generally better than going into the care system.

Quote from: Barrister on September 16, 2011, 09:43:59 AM
Well they better come and apprehend my kid because I've left him alone in the car for a few minutes before.

This is Italy. Leaving a young child in the summer sun can easily kill him.

Quote from: Berkut on September 16, 2011, 12:11:04 PM

Quote from: Barrister on September 16, 2011, 11:50:44 AM

Quote from: Berkut on September 16, 2011, 11:42:25 AM

Quote from: Barrister on September 16, 2011, 09:50:23 AM

Quote from: Valmy on September 16, 2011, 09:44:38 AM

Quote from: Barrister on September 16, 2011, 09:43:59 AM
Well they better come and apprehend my kid because I've left him alone in the car for a few minutes before.

Well right are we talking 5 minutes or like 20 minutes?

Well... I've left him in there a couple of times for lengthy periods when he was sleeping (and badly needed to sleep), but I was always so nervous I'd run out and check on him every 5 minutes (and he was in our own driveway), but mostly I was thinking of running into a store quickly for 2 minutes when I know the baby'd much prefer to just stay there playing with his toys than to be unbuckled dragged into the store, then buckled up again.

Wow. I would never do that. Would be terrified someone would come along and help themselves to my kid.

I don't know about upstate new york, but in Alberta our car doors have locks.

If someone is interested in kidnapping, a lock on your car door is not going to stop them.

Small town mentality meet big city fearmongering.

Quote from: Iormlund on September 16, 2011, 12:39:04 PM

Quote from: Barrister on September 16, 2011, 09:43:59 AM
Well they better come and apprehend my kid because I've left him alone in the car for a few minutes before.

This is Italy. Leaving a young child in the summer sun can easily kill him.

Well it depends on when and where, obviously.  There are plenty of days in Canada where you could kill a child as well.

Quote from: Barrister on September 16, 2011, 12:41:58 PM
There are plenty of days in Canada where you could kill a child as well.

Wow. Just wow. I mean, I dislike children, but even I think such "holidays" are a bit too extreme. Mindboggling.  :wacko:

:lol:

Quote from: Martinus on September 16, 2011, 12:52:58 PM

Quote from: Barrister on September 16, 2011, 12:41:58 PM
There are plenty of days in Canada where you could kill a child as well.

Wow. Just wow. I mean, I dislike children, but even I think such "holidays" are a bit too extreme. Mindboggling.  :wacko:

:lol:

Quote from: Martinus on September 16, 2011, 12:52:58 PM

Quote from: Barrister on September 16, 2011, 12:41:58 PM
There are plenty of days in Canada where you could kill a child as well.

Wow. Just wow. I mean, I dislike children, but even I think such "holidays" are a bit too extreme. Mindboggling.  :wacko:

:thumbsup:

Quote from: Martinus on September 16, 2011, 10:07:58 AM
Speaking of which, a couple of weeks ago a work colleague of mine came into my office and announced, with a huge grin, that after months of trying artificial insemination, his wife is now pregnant.

I was like UHM TMI?  :yuk:

You've gone full Slargos with your schtick.  Do you realize that?

Quote from: Martinus on September 16, 2011, 12:52:58 PM

Quote from: Barrister on September 16, 2011, 12:41:58 PM
There are plenty of days in Canada where you could kill a child as well.

Wow. Just wow. I mean, I dislike children, but even I think such "holidays" are a bit too extreme. Mindboggling.  :wacko:

That was funny, though.

Quote from: Ideologue on September 16, 2011, 01:25:44 PM

Quote from: Martinus on September 16, 2011, 10:07:58 AM
Speaking of which, a couple of weeks ago a work colleague of mine came into my office and announced, with a huge grin, that after months of trying artificial insemination, his wife is now pregnant.

I was like UHM TMI?  :yuk:

You've gone full Slargos with your schtick.  Do you realize that?

I'm not sure I'd want to hear about someone's medical procedures.

Quote from: Barrister on September 16, 2011, 12:21:21 PM

Quote from: Berkut on September 16, 2011, 12:11:04 PM
If someone is interested in kidnapping, a lock on your car door is not going to stop them.

If someone is interested in kidnapping, nothing is going to stop them.  There has been a lot of publicity in this corner of the world about a little 3 year old boy that was abducted out of his bedroom.  Of course that led to massive publicity, and for reasons not yet made public they had a suspect right away and there were numerous appeals for him to return the child - which he actually did returning the child back to his bedroom one night.

But anyways, such cases of stranger child kidnapping are so incredibly rare, and I live in a really boring but utlra-safe suburban community, that I'm not terribly worried about it.

I was more worried about him waking up, realizing no one was nearby, and him screaming his head off. :(

Well, not leaving him in the car would certainly stop somone interested in snatching an unattended child.

But hey, whatever. If you are comfortable leaving the kid in the car while you run into the store, more power to you. I would never even consider it though, and I live in a pretty safe suburban area as well. Different strokes and all that.

Quote from: Valmy on September 16, 2011, 12:13:51 PM

Quote from: Malthus on September 16, 2011, 12:10:36 PM
Lots of kids have been in effect raised by their grandparents due to circumstances. I know of once case where grandparents are raising a daughter's kid because the daughter is incapable and the father is unknown.

I dunno why social services ought to get involved in such cases, other than actual neglect or abuse.

I think the court seems to think the very fact this older couple did this is some sort of abuse.  Though putting it up for adoption is pretty radical because in most abuse cases they do not do that immediately right?  They go into Foster care for a bit and the parents get a chance to get their kid back.

The article makes it sound like the actual incident (leaving the kid alone for a coupla minutes) was simply what brought the kid to the attention of the authorities, and the "abuse" was having a kid when you are so damn old.

If they are in fact so damn old that having the kid is a sort of abuse, really there is no reason to ever give the kid back - it isn't like being a drunk or something and promising to be sober. You can't *not* get older.  ;)

Quote from: garbon on September 16, 2011, 01:27:59 PM

Quote from: Ideologue on September 16, 2011, 01:25:44 PM

Quote from: Martinus on September 16, 2011, 10:07:58 AM
Speaking of which, a couple of weeks ago a work colleague of mine came into my office and announced, with a huge grin, that after months of trying artificial insemination, his wife is now pregnant.

I was like UHM TMI?  :yuk:

You've gone full Slargos with your schtick.  Do you realize that?

I'm not sure I'd want to hear about someone's medical procedures.

It's just a little semen.

I might ask him if he were comfortable with the possibility of transmitting his malfunct reproductive system to any male heirs, though.

Quote from: Berkut on September 16, 2011, 01:32:48 PM

Quote from: Barrister on September 16, 2011, 12:21:21 PM

Quote from: Berkut on September 16, 2011, 12:11:04 PM
If someone is interested in kidnapping, a lock on your car door is not going to stop them.

If someone is interested in kidnapping, nothing is going to stop them.  There has been a lot of publicity in this corner of the world about a little 3 year old boy that was abducted out of his bedroom.  Of course that led to massive publicity, and for reasons not yet made public they had a suspect right away and there were numerous appeals for him to return the child - which he actually did returning the child back to his bedroom one night.

But anyways, such cases of stranger child kidnapping are so incredibly rare, and I live in a really boring but utlra-safe suburban community, that I'm not terribly worried about it.

I was more worried about him waking up, realizing no one was nearby, and him screaming his head off. :(

Well, not leaving him in the car would certainly stop somone interested in snatching an unattended child.

But hey, whatever. If you are comfortable leaving the kid in the car while you run into the store, more power to you. I would never even consider it though, and I live in a pretty safe suburban area as well. Different strokes and all that.

Maybe it's just this job, but I think I have a very good sense of the risks of various criminal acts.  I'd be much more worried of someone smashing my window to take some loose change then I would be worried of them taking my kid.  I've seen dozens of such property-motivated cases, but have never, ever seen a stranger child abduction.

And I honestly only run into a store I know I can be in and out of in 1-2 minutes.  Again, more because I'm worried about baby Tim feeling left alone.

Just leave some crayons and he can ease the pain of loneliness by doing up some counterfactual maps, just like his namesake.

I would consider leaving Martinus in a car during an Italian summer.  Preferably in the trunk.

Quote from: Malthus on September 16, 2011, 01:42:32 PM
The article makes it sound like the actual incident (leaving the kid alone for a coupla minutes) was simply what brought the kid to the attention of the authorities, and the "abuse" was having a kid when you are so damn old.

If they are in fact so damn old that having the kid is a sort of abuse, really there is no reason to ever give the kid back - it isn't like being a drunk or something and promising to be sober. You can't *not* get older.  ;)

Well maybe they could find some younger relatives or something to take actual custody or something.  Not that they would get involved in the Vladimir Putin eternal life project or something.  Just putting up for adoption is pretty final.

Quote from: Ideologue on September 16, 2011, 01:43:47 PM
It's just a little semen.

And thus has no place in most workplaces.

Quote from: Martinus on September 16, 2011, 10:07:58 AM
Speaking of which, a couple of weeks ago a work colleague of mine came into my office and announced, with a huge grin, that after months of trying artificial insemination, his wife is now pregnant.

I was like UHM TMI?  :yuk:

Would you have preferred it if they used the traditional method?  :P

Quote from: Valmy on September 16, 2011, 02:37:43 PM
Well maybe they could find some younger relatives or something to take actual custody or something.  Not that they would get involved in the Vladimir Putin eternal life project or something.  Just putting up for adoption is pretty final.

How about they just leave the damn kid with her parents?  :mad:

*snort*

Quote from: merithyn on September 16, 2011, 02:58:13 PM

Quote from: Valmy on September 16, 2011, 02:37:43 PM
Well maybe they could find some younger relatives or something to take actual custody or something.  Not that they would get involved in the Vladimir Putin eternal life project or something.  Just putting up for adoption is pretty final.

How about they just leave the damn kid with her parents?  :mad:

They leave her in the car to roast. :(

Quote from: merithyn on September 16, 2011, 02:58:13 PM

Quote from: Valmy on September 16, 2011, 02:37:43 PM
Well maybe they could find some younger relatives or something to take actual custody or something.  Not that they would get involved in the Vladimir Putin eternal life project or something.  Just putting up for adoption is pretty final.

How about they just leave the damn kid with her parents?  :mad:

:frusty: You seem to be working really hard to misunderstand my posts.

Yes I agree they should leave the damn kid with her parents.

Quote from: garbon on September 16, 2011, 03:01:40 PM

Quote from: merithyn on September 16, 2011, 02:58:13 PM

Quote from: Valmy on September 16, 2011, 02:37:43 PM
Well maybe they could find some younger relatives or something to take actual custody or something.  Not that they would get involved in the Vladimir Putin eternal life project or something.  Just putting up for adoption is pretty final.

How about they just leave the damn kid with her parents?  :mad:

They leave her in the car to roast. :(

Knowing the Wops, they would make the kid delicious.

Roasted child w/ Parmesan.

Quote from: Valmy on September 16, 2011, 03:15:40 PM

:frusty: You seem to be working really hard to misunderstand my posts.

Yes I agree they should leave the damn kid with her parents.

:hug:

No, I just like you and know you'll be okay with my responses like that. :)

To be honest, this story is seriously bothering me. I can't imagine what those parents are going through after waiting so long to have a child of their own. The child is young, and while she'll have a hard time at first, she'll eventually be okay. The parents, on the other hand, may never recover. I know I wouldn't. :(

Quote from: Ideologue on September 16, 2011, 01:25:44 PM

Quote from: Martinus on September 16, 2011, 10:07:58 AM
Speaking of which, a couple of weeks ago a work colleague of mine came into my office and announced, with a huge grin, that after months of trying artificial insemination, his wife is now pregnant.

I was like UHM TMI?  :yuk:

You've gone full Slargos with your schtick.  Do you realize that?

Really?

Would you feel comfortable if a coworker came to you and announced he just had a great anal with his boyfriend, followed by a blowjob in a shower?

Quote from: Martinus on September 16, 2011, 06:36:46 PM

Quote from: Ideologue on September 16, 2011, 01:25:44 PM

Quote from: Martinus on September 16, 2011, 10:07:58 AM
Speaking of which, a couple of weeks ago a work colleague of mine came into my office and announced, with a huge grin, that after months of trying artificial insemination, his wife is now pregnant.

I was like UHM TMI?  :yuk:

You've gone full Slargos with your schtick.  Do you realize that?

Really?

Would you feel comfortable if a coworker came to you and announced he just had a great anal with his boyfriend, followed by a blowjob in a shower?

I'd fire him.

Quote from: Ed Anger on September 16, 2011, 06:47:48 PM
I'd fire him.

:thumbsup:

Also you should fire Martinus for his poor skill at making analogies.

Quote from: Martinus on September 16, 2011, 06:36:46 PM

Quote from: Ideologue on September 16, 2011, 01:25:44 PM

Quote from: Martinus on September 16, 2011, 10:07:58 AM
Speaking of which, a couple of weeks ago a work colleague of mine came into my office and announced, with a huge grin, that after months of trying artificial insemination, his wife is now pregnant.

I was like UHM TMI?  :yuk:

You've gone full Slargos with your schtick.  Do you realize that?

Really?

Would you feel comfortable if a coworker came to you and announced he just had a great anal with his boyfriend, followed by a blowjob in a shower?

You really need to learn how to compare similar things.  You could just as easily have said " if a coworker announced to you that he had just learned to fly an airplane or saw an ant or was now the king of Jupiter" and it would have had the same relevance.

Out of a cannon.

Fortunately, Ed Anger cannot fire anybody anymore - except his own gun when he kills himself when his retirement stocks tank. :yeah:

 :)

Actually, I can. I own a couple of businesses.

So  :moon:

Quote from: merithyn on September 16, 2011, 03:37:11 PM

Quote from: Valmy on September 16, 2011, 03:15:40 PM

:frusty: You seem to be working really hard to misunderstand my posts.

Yes I agree they should leave the damn kid with her parents.

:hug:

No, I just like you and know you'll be okay with my responses like that. :)

To be honest, this story is seriously bothering me. I can't imagine what those parents are going through after waiting so long to have a child of their own. The child is young, and while she'll have a hard time at first, she'll eventually be okay. The parents, on the other hand, may never recover. I know I wouldn't. :(

How many years does the father have to recover? :D

Quote from: Martinus on September 16, 2011, 06:36:46 PM
Really?

Would you feel comfortable if a coworker came to you and announced he just had a great anal with his boyfriend, followed by a blowjob in a shower?

I'd beat him to death.  Faggots aren't allowed to talk to me.

Disgusting.

This is what Nanny liberalism leads to.

Quote from: Habsburg on September 16, 2011, 07:36:42 PM
Disgusting.

This is what Nanny liberalism leads to.

Firing Marti out of a cannon?

Quote from: sbr on September 16, 2011, 07:47:10 PM

Quote from: Habsburg on September 16, 2011, 07:36:42 PM
Disgusting.

This is what Nanny liberalism leads to.

Firing Marti out of a cannon?

Monkeybutt is not a Nanny Liberal, so no.

The original post of this thread.

Quote from: Martinus on September 16, 2011, 09:52:55 AM
I hope someone takes Merrithyn's kids away from her. Like, her obviously more responsible ex-husband.

You are such a bitch. :D

I recommend we take the Italian government away from the Italians and put it up for adoption. Maybe the Germans will do a better job raising it and teaching it not to be a complete fuckup in life.

Quote from: Habsburg on September 16, 2011, 07:36:42 PM
Disgusting.

This is what Nanny liberalism leads to.

Yes, they are so concerned about human rights that they routinely trample on them.

I wonder if the court had more information than a six sentence article that doesn't even tell you what a "recommendation" by the court means.

Quote from: Martinus on September 16, 2011, 06:36:46 PM
Really?

Would you feel comfortable if a coworker came to you and announced he just had a great anal with his boyfriend, followed by a blowjob in a shower?

Sure, just so long as they can't adopt children to corrupt with their deviant behavior...

Quote from: Gups on September 20, 2011, 09:09:11 AM
I wonder if the court had more information than a six sentence article that doesn't even tell you what a "recommendation" by the court means.

The court recommendation was followed with "and the child was to be taken away from the parents." The only other information I've been able to find said that additional "proof" that they were incapable of parenting the child was that the child had been heard crying several times by neighbors.

I do understand that the media is often irresponsible in these types of cases, but I've yet to find a single one that shows me that the parents were abusive or neglectful of the child. Maybe if someone could translate some Italian articles on the subject we might get more information?

Given the Italian laws against "older parenting" like limiting artificial insemination to those younger than 43 and not allowing those older than 45 to adopt, I wouldn't be in the least surprised to find that the only real reason for taking the child is simply that the parents have been deemed "too old".

Quote from: merithyn on September 20, 2011, 10:42:22 AM

Quote from: Gups on September 20, 2011, 09:09:11 AM
I wonder if the court had more information than a six sentence article that doesn't even tell you what a "recommendation" by the court means.

The court recommendation was followed with "and the child was to be taken away from the parents." The only other information I've been able to find said that additional "proof" that they were incapable of parenting the child was that the child had been heard crying several times by neighbors.

I do understand that the media is often irresponsible in these types of cases, but I've yet to find a single one that shows me that the parents were abusive or neglectful of the child. Maybe if someone could translate some Italian articles on the subject we might get more information?

Given the Italian laws against "older parenting" like limiting artificial insemination to those younger than 43 and not allowing those older than 45 to adopt, I wouldn't be in the least surprised to find that the only real reason for taking the child is simply that the parents have been deemed "too old".

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/8768927/Italian-parents-too-old-and-selfish-to-look-after-child.html

QuoteThe case first came to light last year when the couple allegedly left the baby, then aged just one month, unattended in a car for 40 minutes outside their home in the town of Mirabello in Piedmont, of which Turin is the regional capital.

Mr De Ambrosis said he was unloading some shopping from his car and never let the child out of his sight.

On another occasion neighbours reported that the couple left the baby, crying and alone, in a car at 10pm one night in an apparent attempt to make her go to sleep.

QuoteThe couple were subjected to tests by psychologists and psychiatrists, who found that Mrs De Ambrosis had failed to establish an emotional bond with her baby and her husband had not shown enough concern for the child's wellbeing. 

QuoteThey had resorted to artificial insemination after two applications to adopt a child were turned down on the basis that they were too old.

QuoteIn a clarifying statement released on Friday, the court said that the ruling was based primarily on the fact that the couple had "abandoned" the baby on numerous occasions, endangering her physical and mental health.

The child has been looked after for the last month by a foster family.

Quote from: merithyn on September 20, 2011, 10:42:22 AM

Given the Italian laws against "older parenting" like limiting artificial insemination to those younger than 43 and not allowing those older than 45 to adopt, I wouldn't be in the least surprised to find that the only real reason for taking the child is simply that the parents have been deemed "too old".

I suspect that your understanding of "Italian laws against older parenting" is cursory enough that you should probably not be too quick to NOT be the "least bit surprised" by any conclusions drawn based on that understanding combined with rather dubious journalism.

Agreed on the cursory knowledge, but nonetheless, I disagree with the laws that I do know about. :P

Quote from: Martinus on September 16, 2011, 09:57:56 AM

Quote from: ulmont on September 16, 2011, 09:55:46 AM
I support mandatory sterilization at age 40.  Eh, fuck it, make it age 12.

I think all children should be taken away from their parents and taught by the wisemen. Preferably in some remote location I cannot see or hear.

The state should encourage non-procreational sexual activities and only people with a special permit should bear children.

Dig it.

Your non-breeder agony is delicious.

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