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General Category => Off the Record => Topic started by: Martinus on September 15, 2011, 01:58:15 AM

Poll
Question: What trait would you rather have the leader of your country to have?
Option 1: An ability to adapt to changing conditions votes: 13
Option 2: A faithfulness to his ideology and ideals votes: 7
Title: What trait would you rather have the leader of your country to have?
Post by: Martinus on September 15, 2011, 01:58:15 AM
A simple question. Personally, I think the second choice is overrated.
Title: Re: What trait would you rather have the leader of your country to have?
Post by: jimmy olsen on September 15, 2011, 02:16:38 AM
Why can't you have both?
Title: Re: What trait would you rather have the leader of your country to have?
Post by: Ideologue on September 15, 2011, 02:22:24 AM
I voted a faithfulness to Ideologue and his ideals.
Title: Re: What trait would you rather have the leader of your country to have?
Post by: The Larch on September 15, 2011, 02:38:34 AM
Too much of either is bad. If a leader is too flexible he'll be blamed to hell and back for being a flip-flopper with no ideological basis whatsoever, if the leader is too ideological he'll be blamed for being a rigid dogmatist.
Title: Re: What trait would you rather have the leader of your country to have?
Post by: Martinus on September 15, 2011, 02:53:46 AM
Quote from: The Larch on September 15, 2011, 02:38:34 AM
Too much of either is bad. If a leader is too flexible he'll be blamed to hell and back for being a flip-flopper with no ideological basis whatsoever, if the leader is too ideological he'll be blamed for being a rigid dogmatist.

I don't care what he will be blamed for (it's a different question whatsoever), but what in your opinion is better.

Imo, we, as a society, put too much stress on a politician being "true to his ideology" and deride flip-floppers and "rotten compromise". I think in the modern world, being a rigid dogmatist is a much more damaging position to take, as national sovereignty is significantly restricted by various external aspects (e.g. rating agencies, financial markets etc.). From that perspective, I'd rather have a complete flip-flopper who however is able to see where the wind is blowing from and adapt to the situation, finding a solution that works (irrespective or not whether it crosses party lines) than one that holds steadfast to his ideology when a contrary action would work.

From that perspective, the elections should be not about what the candidate exactly thinks (except for obvious extreme lunatics, of course) but the style of his rule.
Title: Re: What trait would you rather have the leader of your country to have?
Post by: Eddie Teach on September 15, 2011, 02:59:35 AM
I think the leader should have a pretty consistent ideology but flexibility regarding tactics for achieving his aims and in dealing with foreign powers.
Title: Re: What trait would you rather have the leader of your country to have?
Post by: Camerus on September 15, 2011, 03:10:18 AM
Faithful to his ideology, as long as it is pragmatism.   :)
Title: Re: What trait would you rather have the leader of your country to have?
Post by: Tamas on September 15, 2011, 03:14:48 AM
The whole thing would of course stop being an issue if the state wasn reduced to bare minimums.
Title: Re: What trait would you rather have the leader of your country to have?
Post by: Ideologue on September 15, 2011, 03:20:19 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 15, 2011, 02:53:46 AM
Quote from: The Larch on September 15, 2011, 02:38:34 AM
Too much of either is bad. If a leader is too flexible he'll be blamed to hell and back for being a flip-flopper with no ideological basis whatsoever, if the leader is too ideological he'll be blamed for being a rigid dogmatist.

I don't care what he will be blamed for (it's a different question whatsoever), but what in your opinion is better.

Imo, we, as a society, put too much stress on a politician being "true to his ideology" and deride flip-floppers and "rotten compromise". I think in the modern world, being a rigid dogmatist is a much more damaging position to take, as national sovereignty is significantly restricted by various external aspects (e.g. rating agencies, financial markets etc.). From that perspective, I'd rather have a complete flip-flopper who however is able to see where the wind is blowing from and adapt to the situation, finding a solution that works (irrespective or not whether it crosses party lines) than one that holds steadfast to his ideology when a contrary action would work.

From that perspective, the elections should be not about what the candidate exactly thinks (except for obvious extreme lunatics, of course) but the style of his rule.

Visionless technocrat.
Title: Re: What trait would you rather have the leader of your country to have?
Post by: The Larch on September 15, 2011, 03:38:09 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 15, 2011, 02:53:46 AM
Quote from: The Larch on September 15, 2011, 02:38:34 AM
Too much of either is bad. If a leader is too flexible he'll be blamed to hell and back for being a flip-flopper with no ideological basis whatsoever, if the leader is too ideological he'll be blamed for being a rigid dogmatist.

I don't care what he will be blamed for (it's a different question whatsoever), but what in your opinion is better.

Imo, we, as a society, put too much stress on a politician being "true to his ideology" and deride flip-floppers and "rotten compromise". I think in the modern world, being a rigid dogmatist is a much more damaging position to take, as national sovereignty is significantly restricted by various external aspects (e.g. rating agencies, financial markets etc.). From that perspective, I'd rather have a complete flip-flopper who however is able to see where the wind is blowing from and adapt to the situation, finding a solution that works (irrespective or not whether it crosses party lines) than one that holds steadfast to his ideology when a contrary action would work.

From that perspective, the elections should be not about what the candidate exactly thinks (except for obvious extreme lunatics, of course) but the style of his rule.

I think that ideally a political leader should have a clear strategical long term plan grounded on his ideological basis from which he gets a mandate from the electorate and then is flexible enough to compromise at the tactical level without jeopardizing this long term plan in order to react to unforeseen situations or a temporal crisis.

There has been some debate over here in Spain about this regarding Zapatero and the PSOE, as we have a clear example of this points of view with conflicting opinions. Until last year the country had been managed somehow following the guidelines of their electoral program with which they had been elected, and then in May 2010, IIRC, a huge U-turn was taken in order to manage the global economic crisis and, according to their critics, they threw their whole ideological basis and political program under the bus and spinelessly bent over to appease foreign agents (FMI, EU, "the markets", Merkel, you name it).

Critics say that, at that point, instead of flip-flopping so hard in economic policy, they should have stepped down and called for new elections, as they were clearly going to "betray" the mandate that had been given to them by the Spanish people on the basis of their platform. Personally I think that that'd have made the whole situation much worse, and at a certain level appreciate their abandonment of a certain ideological rigidity and their flexibility when adopting new measures, although I don't like some of them, but at the same time can see the point of the people that feel betrayed for this change in attitude.
Title: Re: What trait would you rather have the leader of your country to have?
Post by: Zanza on September 15, 2011, 03:46:51 AM
Pragmatism is much more important than ideological strigency.
Title: Re: What trait would you rather have the leader of your country to have?
Post by: Sheilbh on September 15, 2011, 04:13:19 AM
Pragmatism in response to changing circumstances. 

The problem is pragmatism gets a bad name from politicians who are pragmatic in response to polls. 

The other problem is I think the focus on 'what works' is a bit misleading.  Different things will work and they'll work in different ways and have different side-effects and that's the ideological choice.  Take child care for example, which lots of governments provide for a variety of good reasons.  How you structure a program, which can work in many ways, is a function of ideology and policy will be shaped by that.  Lot's of things work and the choices should be based on what a government wants to achieve ideologically within a broad idea of what's possible politically.

I also think that doing 'what works' has driven the EU for a long-time with its technocratic structure and I don't think it's worked.  It reminds me of Alastair Darling's line that he was having dinner with a few other finance ministers and he was the only politician there, they were all technocratic appointees.  They were all amazed that he could get anything done if he had to worry about voters.  He couldn't believe they could do anything without worrying about voters.

The other problem is what's the point of a pragmatist if they don't know what they're trying to achieve.  I think Gordon Brown suffered from that and Cameron's not far off either.
Title: Re: What trait would you rather have the leader of your country to have?
Post by: Zanza on September 15, 2011, 04:15:44 AM
Our current chancellor Merkel is the ultimate non-ideological pragmatist. However, that actually hurts her now as the conservative base of her party start realizing that she is only interest in power, not in their favored policies.
Title: Re: What trait would you rather have the leader of your country to have?
Post by: Brazen on September 15, 2011, 04:17:42 AM
Option 1 is Nick Clegg who has disappointed me badly. Option 2 is David Cameron, who is letting the lower-middle and working classes get poorer and poorer. I don't have to choose, I get both  :glare:
Title: Re: What trait would you rather have the leader of your country to have?
Post by: Sheilbh on September 15, 2011, 04:20:01 AM
Quote from: Zanza on September 15, 2011, 04:15:44 AM
Our current chancellor Merkel is the ultimate non-ideological pragmatist. However, that actually hurts her now as the conservative base of her party start realizing that she is only interest in power, not in their favored policies.
Have you heard Berlusconi's wiretaped opinion of Merkel?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/angela-merkel-undermined-by-outspoken-mps-2354986.html
Title: Re: What trait would you rather have the leader of your country to have?
Post by: Richard Hakluyt on September 15, 2011, 04:29:59 AM
Charming.

Title: Re: What trait would you rather have the leader of your country to have?
Post by: The Brain on September 15, 2011, 04:59:17 AM
Confirmed Bachelor.
Title: Re: What trait would you rather have the leader of your country to have?
Post by: Sheilbh on September 15, 2011, 05:03:20 AM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on September 15, 2011, 04:29:59 AM
Charming.
I think it's revealing that even with world leaders that's still how he's thinking.  The seediness of his life - at least from what's coming out before the trial - is just unbelievable.  It's such a shame Italy actually matters at the moment.
Title: Re: What trait would you rather have the leader of your country to have?
Post by: The Larch on September 15, 2011, 05:25:49 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 15, 2011, 05:03:20 AM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on September 15, 2011, 04:29:59 AM
Charming.
I think it's revealing that even with world leaders that's still how he's thinking.  The seediness of his life - at least from what's coming out before the trial - is just unbelievable.  It's such a shame Italy actually matters at the moment.

Are you still surprised about seedy revelations from Berlusconi? He's never hid the way he thinks, even if he's polite-ish about it in public, and even so he's already have some notorious insights out.
Title: Re: What trait would you rather have the leader of your country to have?
Post by: Sheilbh on September 15, 2011, 05:34:45 AM
Quote from: The Larch on September 15, 2011, 05:25:49 AMAre you still surprised about seedy revelations from Berlusconi? He's never hid the way he thinks, even if he's polite-ish about it in public, and even so he's already have some notorious insights out.
I used to think he was sleazy in an embarassing, awkward but quite funny and fundamentally harmless way.  But a 70 year old man hiring hundreds of strippers, having affairs with 17 year old and all the rest of the bunga bunga allegations are just sleazy in a sleazy way. 
Title: Re: What trait would you rather have the leader of your country to have?
Post by: Admiral Yi on September 15, 2011, 05:36:17 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 15, 2011, 04:13:19 AM
Pragmatism in response to changing circumstances. 

The problem is pragmatism gets a bad name from politicians who are pragmatic in response to polls. 

This.
Title: Re: What trait would you rather have the leader of your country to have?
Post by: The Larch on September 15, 2011, 06:09:22 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 15, 2011, 05:34:45 AM
Quote from: The Larch on September 15, 2011, 05:25:49 AMAre you still surprised about seedy revelations from Berlusconi? He's never hid the way he thinks, even if he's polite-ish about it in public, and even so he's already have some notorious insights out.
I used to think he was sleazy in an embarassing, awkward but quite funny and fundamentally harmless way.  But a 70 year old man hiring hundreds of strippers, having affairs with 17 year old and all the rest of the bunga bunga allegations are just sleazy in a sleazy way.

Well, all that has been know since the last couple of years, hardly breaking news. Apparently his parties were already being talked about by the Milanese high society, in a hush-hush kind of way, since the 80s.
Title: Re: What trait would you rather have the leader of your country to have?
Post by: Zanza on September 15, 2011, 06:45:05 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 15, 2011, 04:20:01 AMHave you heard Berlusconi's wiretaped opinion of Merkel?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/angela-merkel-undermined-by-outspoken-mps-2354986.html
I am sure Merkel doesn't give a fuck what he thinks about her sexiness.
Title: Re: What trait would you rather have the leader of your country to have?
Post by: Eddie Teach on September 15, 2011, 07:06:56 AM
Quotethe 74-year-old Prime Minister, who three years ago caused a diplomatic incident by describing US President Barack Obama as "suntanned".

:o

He's lucky Italy is still on the map!  :mad:
Title: Re: What trait would you rather have the leader of your country to have?
Post by: Slargos on September 15, 2011, 07:47:37 AM
An over-indulgence in pragmatism renders democracy more pointless than it already is since the leader can run on whatever platform he cares to as long as he plays to populism during the elections and the population has a short enough memory.
Sort of like with Sarkozy.
I would rather the man I elected to do the job he promised, actually does it.
Title: Re: What trait would you rather have the leader of your country to have?
Post by: Valmy on September 15, 2011, 07:56:03 AM
It entirely depends on what those ideals are  :ph34r:
Title: Re: What trait would you rather have the leader of your country to have?
Post by: Viking on September 15, 2011, 09:17:23 AM
Quote from: John Maynard KeynesWhen the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?

I wish Kerry had used that when "W" accused him of flip floppery.
Title: Re: What trait would you rather have the leader of your country to have?
Post by: Martinus on September 15, 2011, 02:41:06 PM
Quote from: Viking on September 15, 2011, 09:17:23 AM
Quote from: John Maynard KeynesWhen the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?

I wish Kerry had used that when "W" accused him of flip floppery.

Only a homo would change his mind like that.
Title: Re: What trait would you rather have the leader of your country to have?
Post by: Martinus on September 15, 2011, 02:43:00 PM
Quote from: Slargos on September 15, 2011, 07:47:37 AM
An over-indulgence in pragmatism renders democracy more pointless than it already is since the leader can run on whatever platform he cares to as long as he plays to populism during the elections and the population has a short enough memory.
Sort of like with Sarkozy.
I would rather the man I elected to do the job he promised, actually does it.

I think one of the misconceptions of democracy is that it is about people electing whomever they want to rule them. It's about removing unpopular people from power through bloodless means.
Title: Re: What trait would you rather have the leader of your country to have?
Post by: Valmy on September 15, 2011, 02:58:04 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 15, 2011, 02:41:06 PM
Quote from: Viking on September 15, 2011, 09:17:23 AM
Quote from: John Maynard KeynesWhen the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?

I wish Kerry had used that when "W" accused him of flip floppery.

Only a homo would change his mind like that.

My God man :bleeding:
Title: Re: What trait would you rather have the leader of your country to have?
Post by: MadImmortalMan on September 15, 2011, 04:00:45 PM
Quote
What trait would you rather have the leader of your country to have?

Severe Tourette's.


Might as well be entertained while they fuck everything up.
Title: Re: What trait would you rather have the leader of your country to have?
Post by: Kleves on September 15, 2011, 04:31:51 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on September 15, 2011, 04:00:45 PM
Severe Tourette's.


Might as well be entertained while they fuck everything up.
Is it Tropico where you can have a leader with Tourettes that periodically brings in money due to people watching his speeches on PPV?
Title: Re: What trait would you rather have the leader of your country to have?
Post by: Siege on September 15, 2011, 04:57:39 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 15, 2011, 01:58:15 AM
A simple question. Personally, I think the second choice is overrated.

You are overrated!