Deadliest incident during the entire war. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44043847/ns/world_news-south_and_central_asia/ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44043847/ns/world_news-south_and_central_asia/)
QuoteKABUL, Afghanistan — A NATO helicopter crashed in Afghanistan killing 31 U.S. special-forces troops and 7 Afghan commandos, Afghan President Hamid Karzai said Saturday. It was easily the dealiest incident for foreign troops in 10 years of war.
A brief statement from the presidential palace said the helicopter had crashed in central Wardak province, an area west of Kabul. The volatile region is known for its strong Taliban presence.
Afghan President Hamid Karzai "shared his deep sorrow and sadness" with U.S. counterpart Barack Obama and the families of the U.S. and Afghan victims, the statement said.
The Taliban claimed to have shot down the troop-carrying Chinook helicopter during a firefight. The Islamist group also said in a statement that eight insurgents had been killed in the battle.
NBC News quoted a Taliban spokesman as claiming the U.S. troops were attacking a compound that was housing militants when the aircraft was brought down. However, the Taliban has been known to make exaggerated claims in the past.
A senior Obama administration official told The Associated Press that the aircraft had apparently been shot down by insurgents. The official spoke on condition of anonymity because the crash is still being investigated.
'Enemy activity in the area'
The NATO-led International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) confirmed the overnight incident and said there "was enemy activity in the area." But it said it was still investigating the cause. The alliance was conducting a recovery operation at the site, it said, without releasing details or a casualty figure.
"We are aware of an incident involving a helicopter in eastern Afghanistan," said U.S. Air Force Capt. Justin Brockhoff, a NATO spokesman. "We are in the process of accessing the facts."
The helicopter was a twin-rotor Chinook, which are used for transport, said an official at NATO headquarters in Brussels, speaking on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to talk to the press.
A military official told The New York Times that the Chinook helicopter had been shot down by insurgents. The paper said the official spoke on condition of anonymity because the crash was still being investigated.
The helicopter was hit by a rocket-propelled grenade, the official reportedly told the Times.
Gen. Abdul Qayoom Baqizoy, police chief of Wardak, told the Times that the joint NATO-Afghan operation began around 1 a.m. Saturday with an attack on a Taliban compound in the village of Jaw-e-mekh Zareen.
He said the resulting firefight lasted at least two hours.
"It was at the end of the operation that one of the NATO helicopters crashed," he said. "We don't know yet the cause of the crash and we don't know how many NATO soldiers were on board," he told the Times.
The majority of foreign troops in Wardak, which comes under ISAF's eastern regional command, are American.
Citing a U.S. military official, ABC News reported that the victims included 25 Navy SEALs.
The Washington Post reported that a second coalition helicopter made a "precautionary landing" Saturday in Afghanistan's Khost province. Brockhoff, the NATO spokesman, said the helicopter sustained minor damage and no injuries were reported. He rejected Taliban claims that the second aircraft had been shot down.
Aircraft crashes are relatively frequent in Afghanistan, where insecurity and difficult terrain make air travel essential for coalition forces transporting troops and equipment.
There have been at least 17 coalition and Afghan aircraft crashes in Afghanistan this year. Most of the crashes are attributed to pilot errors, weather conditions or mechanical failures. However, the coalition has confirmed that at least one CH-47F Chinook helicopter was hit by a rocket-propelled grenade on July 25, injuring two crewmembers.
Growing unease
The incident comes only two weeks after the start of a gradual process of handing security responsibility from foreign forces to Afghan troops and police, and at a time of growing unease about the increasingly unpopular and costly war.
That process is due to end with all foreign combat troops leaving Afghanistan by the end of 2014, but some U.S. lawmakers have already questioned whether that handover is fast enough.
Interactive: The cost of war (on this page)
The crash was by far the worst incident of the war for foreign troops and easily surpassed the worst incidents of battlefield losses.
In April 2005, another CH-47 Chinook helicopter crashed, killing 15 U.S. servicemen and three civilian contractors. Another Chinook crash in June the same year killed 17 U.S. troops.
U.S. and other NATO commanders have claimed success in reversing the momentum of a growing insurgency in the Taliban heartland in the south, although insurgents have shown a worrying ability to adapt
their tactics and mount major attacks in other areas.
Video: Mullen: 'We're moving in the right direction' in Afghanistan
Those gains, however, have come at a price, with 711 foreign troops killed in Afghanistan in 2010, easily the deadliest year of the war for all concerned since the Taliban were toppled by U.S.-backed foreign troops in late 2001.
The crash in Wardak means that at least 374 foreign troops have been killed so far in 2011, more than two-thirds of them American, according to independent monitor www.icasualties.com and figures kept by Reuters.
Despite the alarming military toll, ordinary Afghan civilians have continued to bear the brunt of the war, with civilian casualties also hitting record levels in the first six months of this year, according to U.N. figures.
Earlier on Saturday, Afghan police said a NATO airstrike killed eight civilians in southern Helmand province on Friday.
ISAF confirmed there had been an airstrike in Helmand's Nad Ali district and said it was investigating whether civilians had been present at the time.
Civilian casualties caused by foreign troops hunting Taliban fighters and other insurgents have long been a major source of friction between Kabul and its Western backers.
Nad Ali district police chief Shidi Khan said the airstrike was called in after insurgents attacked ISAF troops in the area.
Here's something I've always wondered about: how is it that we get into major, hours-long firefights that
don't end with most of the Taliban fighters dead? Are we too afraid of civilian casualties?
Oh, 7 Afghans also died in the crash. But, you know, who cares.
Oh, damn.
I think the Afghanis run away and are hard to find.
Quote from: Kleves on August 06, 2011, 08:37:36 AM
Oh, 7 Afghans also died in the crash. But, you know, who cares.
No shit. 20 US Navy Seals and their dog are substantially more important than a Michigan Stadium full of Afghanis.
It was Seal Team Six that went down. :bleeding:
Quote from: Kleves on August 06, 2011, 12:23:03 PM
It was Seal Team Six that went down. :bleeding:
The disney movie just got a sad ending.
Ever since I heard it was SEALs, I wondered whether it was SEAL Team 6, and whether they were on a mission to kill someone important. I guess we'll never really know.
Although sources say that none of those killed were from bin Laden raid, so at least the movie is safe.
Quote from: DGuller on August 06, 2011, 12:38:04 PM
Although sources say that none of those killed were from bin Laden raid, so at least the movie is safe.
Whew, that's a relief.
Quote from: DGuller on August 06, 2011, 12:38:04 PM
Although sources say that none of those killed were from bin Laden raid, so at least the movie is safe.
You know, if it was the guys who did the Bin Laden raid they military would deny it. No way are they going to let out the real names of the men who were part of that op even if dead. Some asshole might track down family members and kill them.
:(
I tend to believe what the military say about the men involved, not that it particularly matters as 30 dead soldiers are still 30 dead individuals.
But I can't help but wonder, was the unit a target for a revenge operation ? Given how leaking Afghan intelligence/military are and how corrupt the Karzai administration is, I wouldn't be surprised to find that the Taliban could be getting semi-regular updates about what this SEAL unit was up to; perhaps they were led into an ambush by a taliban agent ?
Quote from: mongers on August 06, 2011, 08:15:16 PM
But I can't help but wonder, was the unit a target for a revenge operation ? Given how leaking Afghan intelligence/military are and how corrupt the Karzai administration is, I wouldn't be surprised to find that the Taliban could be getting semi-regular updates about what this SEAL unit was up to; perhaps they were led into an ambush by a taliban agent ?
Stop reading so much Tom Clancy.
It was a dirt farmer with a lucky shot. That RPG was probably sitting in a goat hutch for 6 years waiting for its chance to be a peacock.
Quote from: mongers on August 06, 2011, 08:15:16 PM
I tend to believe what the military say about the men involved, not that it particularly matters as 30 dead soldiers are still 30 dead individuals.
But I can't help but wonder, was the unit a target for a revenge operation ? Given how leaking Afghan intelligence/military are and how corrupt the Karzai administration is, I wouldn't be surprised to find that the Taliban could be getting semi-regular updates about what this SEAL unit was up to; perhaps they were led into an ambush by a taliban agent ?
Unlikely for a number of reasons.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 06, 2011, 09:45:59 PM
Quote from: mongers on August 06, 2011, 08:15:16 PM
But I can't help but wonder, was the unit a target for a revenge operation ? Given how leaking Afghan intelligence/military are and how corrupt the Karzai administration is, I wouldn't be surprised to find that the Taliban could be getting semi-regular updates about what this SEAL unit was up to; perhaps they were led into an ambush by a taliban agent ?
Stop reading so much Tom Clancy.
It was a dirt farmer with a lucky shot. That RPG was probably sitting in a goat hutch for 6 years waiting for its chance to be a peacock.
Yeah, I mean an RPG-7 or what ever knockoff they happen to have isn't really a weapon designed to take down aircraft. If it hits a helicopter it'll probably knock it down (if the warhead goes off), but a helicopter in mid flight is a difficult target to hit. I've heard that sometimes people set the fuses on RPG-7 to explode in mid-air like a Flak shell, but I imagine it would still be difficult to hit something with that. I don't think there are proximity fuses for those warheads.
I don't think a proximity fuse would be a difficult thing to put into an RPG round.
From what I saw on the news, apparently the Chinook was very low on the deck. Big target.
It's tragic, and it sucks that it was SEALS, as that is a severe operational loss in so many ways, but I don't see why everyone's so shocked that it could possibly happen.
Hell, we lost over 150 Chinooks in Vietnam, many the same way. RPG hit while on the deck.
Oh yeah, and it's a fucking war.
Gotta fill up the news somehow.
Quote from: Ideologue on August 07, 2011, 07:09:32 AM
I don't think a proximity fuse would be a difficult thing to put into an RPG round.
:huh: Just wow. Did you think for even a second before pressing the "post" button?
At least I have fixed your posts so it doesn't sound
completely retarded.
Quote from: grumbler on August 07, 2011, 09:58:21 AM
Quote from: Ideologue on August 07, 2011, 07:09:32 AM
I don't think a proximity fuse would be a difficult thing to put into an RPG round.
:huh: Just wow. Did you think for even a second before pressing the "post" button?
At least I have fixed your posts so it doesn't sound completely retarded.
Don't blame Ide. He saw it in a Michael Bay movie. Or perhaps McGyver. Or McGruber.
Quote from: grumbler on August 07, 2011, 09:58:21 AM
Quote from: Ideologue on August 07, 2011, 07:09:32 AM
I don't think a proximity fuse would be a difficult thing to put into an RPG round.
:huh: Just wow. Did you think for even a second before pressing the "post" button?
At least I have fixed your posts so it doesn't sound completely retarded.
Fuck you, grumbler. A good half of your posts are arguing about things no one with sense would waste the verbiage on.
I wasn't certain, so I said "I think." I'm happy to be corrected by someone with more experience or knowledge of military equipment, so dial back on the asshole.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 07, 2011, 10:36:24 AM
Quote from: Ideologue on August 07, 2011, 10:19:23 AM
so dial back on the asshole.
But it goes to 11.
Almost everyone's here goes to 11, including mine, but there are other settings.
Quote from: Ideologue on August 07, 2011, 10:19:23 AM
Fuck you, grumbler. A good half of your posts are arguing about things no one with sense would waste the verbiage on.
I wasn't certain, so I said "I think." I'm happy to be corrected by someone with more experience or knowledge of military equipment, so dial back on the asshole.
No, fuck
you. My point is that you didn't
think at all. You don't have a
fucking clue as to what it would take to modify a proximity fuse, or any kind of fuse, to an RPG or anything else. You post was pure stupid - as stupid as anything I can recall anyone saying here ever, and that is saying a lot. It was so blazingly stupid that I simply couldn't ignore it, as I ignore most of the stupidity here.
If you had dialed back on the stupid as you argue I should "dial back on the asshole," you wouldn't have posted at all, and so neither would I.
Quote from: Ideologue on August 07, 2011, 10:41:08 AM
Almost everyone's here goes to 11, including mine, but there are other settings.
Not everybody's stupid goes to 11, though, and when one posts with their stupid set to 11, people will tell them that there are other settings (to which you will respond that they are assholes, but they can live with that).
:lol:
What's up, grumbleR? Someone pissed in your cheerios today?
Seems an awfully exaggerated amount of nerdrage to spill on such an innocuous assertion, no matter the degree of ignorance it shows.
Quote from: grumbler on August 07, 2011, 11:45:43 AM
Quote from: Ideologue on August 07, 2011, 10:19:23 AM
Fuck you, grumbler. A good half of your posts are arguing about things no one with sense would waste the verbiage on.
I wasn't certain, so I said "I think." I'm happy to be corrected by someone with more experience or knowledge of military equipment, so dial back on the asshole.
No, fuck you. My point is that you didn't think at all. You don't have a fucking clue as to what it would take to modify a proximity fuse, or any kind of fuse, to an RPG or anything else. You post was pure stupid - as stupid as anything I can recall anyone saying here ever, and that is saying a lot. It was so blazingly stupid that I simply couldn't ignore it, as I ignore most of the stupidity here.
If you had dialed back on the stupid as you argue I should "dial back on the asshole," you wouldn't have posted at all, and so neither would I.
No, fuck
you. You saw an excuse to be a total cunt, and you never pass those up, do you?
I'm going to admit, Grumbler's reactions was kind of weird. I don't know how hard it is to put a proximity fuse into an RPG round. I don't even know how exactly they work. I do know they are put in mortar bombs and artillery shells and I know the Germans found proximity fuses in American artillery incredibly unpleasant.
WTF? Who could've imagined that proximity fuses or RPGs would be grumbler's sore spot?
Tsk. It's just another gambit to increase the power of his Aura of Confusion spell.
Well, not to pick sides or anything, but the concept of proximity fuses on a rocket-propelled grenade is pretty fucking stupid.
But I'm not calling out anybody for being fucking stupid or anything.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 07, 2011, 01:02:36 PM
Well, not to pick sides or anything, but the concept of proximity fuses on a rocket-propelled grenade is pretty fucking stupid.
But I'm not calling out anybody for being fucking stupid or anything.
Well, aren't
you special? :P
I don't know why anyone is hung up about RPGs, or about idiotic statements being called idiotic statements. But, then, those who profess that they don't understand why I would call an idiotic statement idiotic all have a vested interest in pretending not to know what an idiotic statement is! :lol:
Quote from: grumbler on August 07, 2011, 02:31:18 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 07, 2011, 01:02:36 PM
Well, not to pick sides or anything, but the concept of proximity fuses on a rocket-propelled grenade is pretty fucking stupid.
But I'm not calling out anybody for being fucking stupid or anything.
Well, aren't you special? :P
I don't know why anyone is hung up about RPGs, or about idiotic statements being called idiotic statements. But, then, those who profess that they don't understand why I would call an idiotic statement idiotic all have a vested interest in pretending not to know what an idiotic statement is! :lol:
:lol:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F_jDc04jwvOlQ%2FSuRyFShn_GI%2FAAAAAAAAAVw%2F3cYO24sOHRE%2Fs400%2Fnerdrage.jpg&hash=62a4bac0eb72e631595c69f7fb15b6fb7367de02)
Quote from: DGuller on August 07, 2011, 12:32:02 PM
WTF? Who could've imagined that proximity fuses or RPGs would be grumbler's sore spot?
Presumably Grumbler knows exactly how hard it is to put a proximity fuse on an RPG-7 warhead. Perhaps he'll tell us, and then inform us how he found that out.
Hey, if I post a link to a page I found which proposes modifying RPG7s and other AT rockets to carry all sorts of warheads, do you think grumbler's logic circuit will exploded or might he just rage-quit ? :cool:
edit:
http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/rpg.html (http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/rpg.html) :whistle:
Quote from: mongers on August 07, 2011, 05:46:14 PM
Hey, if I post a link to a page I found which proposes modifying RPG7s and other AT rockets to carry all sorts of warheads, do you think grumbler's logic circuit will exploded or might he just rage-quit ? :cool:
edit:
http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/rpg.html (http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/rpg.html) :whistle:
Hey, if I point out that your anonymous angelfire user
doesn't mention AA proximity fuses at all (nor any kind of AA round whatsoever), will your illogic circuit explode, or will you just ragequit? :cool:
Quote from: grumbler on August 07, 2011, 07:22:50 PM
Quote from: mongers on August 07, 2011, 05:46:14 PM
Hey, if I post a link to a page I found which proposes modifying RPG7s and other AT rockets to carry all sorts of warheads, do you think grumbler's logic circuit will exploded or might he just rage-quit ? :cool:
edit:
http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/rpg.html (http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/rpg.html) :whistle:
Hey, if I point out that your anonymous angelfire user doesn't mention AA proximity fuses at all (nor any kind of AA round whatsoever), will your illogic circuit explode, or will you just ragequit? :cool:
And were did I mention AA rounds in my post ? :hmm:
It's not like I posed some theoretically impossible thing, dude. Radar proximity fuzes have been used in applications roughly the size of an RPG round, if not a bit smaller (specifically 40mm Bofors shells). You could have just said RPG rounds have never been manufactured with them, or that cave-Afghans aren't capable of manufacturing it, or even that it would not necessarily be useful on any standard RPG round--which I believe are probably your objections, but there's no real reason I should know--but note how instead you just called someone stupid (and spent more time defending that) than it would have taken to explain.
:lol: Dude, let it go. Every time you let grumbler push your buttons its a victory for al Qaeda.
Quote from: mongers on August 07, 2011, 07:29:56 PM
And were did I mention AA rounds in my post ? :hmm:
Now why on earth did I assume that your post had anything to do with the subject under discussion (the apparent downing of a helicopter by an RPG, and the claim that it wouldn't be hard to modify an RPG to take a proximity fuse fopr use against helicopters)? Sorry, old chap. Mistook you for somebody who had a clue. Forget I said anything. I'm certainly going to pretend you didn't say anything, what with you stooping to quote some anonymous angelfire user, wot wot? :bowler:
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 07, 2011, 08:00:48 PM
:lol: Dude, let it go. Every time you let grumbler push your buttons its a victory for al Qaeda.
Listen to Tojo, Ide.
Quote from: grumbler on August 07, 2011, 08:14:20 PM
Quote from: mongers on August 07, 2011, 07:29:56 PM
And were did I mention AA rounds in my post ? :hmm:
Now why on earth did I assume that your post had anything to do with the subject under discussion (the apparent downing of a helicopter by an RPG, and the claim that it wouldn't be hard to modify an RPG to take a proximity fuse fopr use against helicopters)? Sorry, old chap. Mistook you for somebody who had a clue. Forget I said anything. I'm certainly going to pretend you didn't say anything, what with you stooping to quote some anonymous angelfire user, wot wot? :bowler:
Baited. ;)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.somethingimpressive.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2009%2F04%2Fsuccessful-troll-is-successful.jpg&hash=31d1ef077fdc301822228dc5b0c340a93bc7704d)
Terrible news - my heart is with the families of my brothers in arms.
Whacking transportation is the norm in the Afghan conflict - as it always has been. That's the most dangerous time - on the move.
Quote from: Neil on August 07, 2011, 08:28:27 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.somethingimpressive.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2009%2F04%2Fsuccessful-troll-is-successful.jpg&hash=31d1ef077fdc301822228dc5b0c340a93bc7704d)
Yep.
What about a proximity fuse on a mortar round? Would that work betterer?
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 08, 2011, 05:34:24 AM
What about a proximity fuse on a mortar round? Would that work betterer?
Well if the Helicopter is on the ground, I guess it would.
A fucking procimity fuse on an RPG round?
How fucking STUPID is that?
Why in the fuck would anyone be so dumb as to suggest something like that, when you could just fucking slap a heat seeking doo-dad on there so it just hits the helicopter straight on?
Christ, I weep for you people.
Quote from: Berkut on August 08, 2011, 08:55:48 AM
A fucking procimity fuse on an RPG round?
How fucking STUPID is that?
Why in the fuck would anyone be so dumb as to suggest something like that, when you could just fucking slap a heat seeking doo-dad on there so it just hits the helicopter straight on?
Christ, I weep for you people.
While I have a faint idea of what a proximity fuse does, I have no idea how it works nor how big it is. Hence, I have no idea whether it would be feasible to mount one on an RPG.
What I do know is that RPGs are being used against helicopters, and that someone other than Ide must've thought of it once. Well, I don't know the latter, but it certainly stands to reason. I don't know the sun will still be there tomorrow, but I expect it might.
I will work on the assumption that other than me and Ide, there are likely several more people who are equally ill-informed on the subject matter and would possibly be interested in a more elaborate answer than "OMG STOOPT", so why don't you get down from your medium sized Ass and provide an answer that is more interesting than "LOOK AT ME I CAN BE A HUGE FUCKING CUNT ALMOST AS WELL AS GRUMBLER", you histrionic fucktard.
Okay Ide. A prox fuse on an RPG would defeat its main purpose, penetrating armor on a vehicle. Or blasting holes into buildings. The kinetic energy of a prox fuse would be wasted, since you usually aren't firing at flying objects.
But I'm just a layman,not an expert. But I play one on TV.
P.S. YUO ARE A DUMFUCK. :P
Quote from: Slargos on August 08, 2011, 09:06:38 AM
Quote from: Berkut on August 08, 2011, 08:55:48 AM
A fucking procimity fuse on an RPG round?
How fucking STUPID is that?
Why in the fuck would anyone be so dumb as to suggest something like that, when you could just fucking slap a heat seeking doo-dad on there so it just hits the helicopter straight on?
Christ, I weep for you people.
While I have a faint idea of what a proximity fuse does, I have no idea how it works nor how big it is. Hence, I have no idea whether it would be feasible to mount one on an RPG.
What I do know is that RPGs are being used against helicopters, and that someone other than Ide must've thought of it once. Well, I don't know the latter, but it certainly stands to reason. I don't know the sun will still be there tomorrow, but I expect it might.
I will work on the assumption that other than me and Ide, there are likely several more people who are equally ill-informed on the subject matter and would possibly be interested in a more elaborate answer than "OMG STOOPT", so why don't you get down from your medium sized Ass and provide an answer that is more interesting than "LOOK AT ME I CAN BE A HUGE FUCKING CUNT ALMOST AS WELL AS GRUMBLER", you histrionic fucktard.
You don't get sarcasm, do you?
You could not more stick a heat seeking "doo-dad" (I really thought the use of such technical jargon would make things obvious, but I guess not) on an rpg round that you could a proximity fuse, at least not as some taliban guy who is lucky to be able to read the instruction manual.
If you want a more elaborate answer as to why you cannot put a prox fuse on an RPG, well...where to start?
1. Taliban fighters in the hills do not have any prox fuses to put on them, or the necessary knowledge to do so if they did, or the facilities to do so.
2. If one was going to do so who DID have those things, it would not really make sense to put one on a HEAT round, which so far as I know is what RPGs fire. They are designed to penetrate armor or buildings by creating a jet of super heated gas that melts through armor. So having one blow up *near* the target would be nearly useless. The round has to strike the target to form the necessary jet of material. Just blowing up would do nothing.
3. They do make straight HE rounds for RPGs, which would certainly work better against something like a helicopter. Would not surprise me if this is what was used, in fact. But they do not have prox fuses, and for reason #1, they could not be improvised.
Now you could almost certainly design a mission specific weapon that would basically function like an RPG with a prox fused round designed to take out helicopters. But if you are going to do that, why not just design a manpad? Which....has already been done. The afghanis, in fact, had great success shooting down Soviet helicopters with US supplied Stinger missiles. The Soviets/Russians have the SA-7 and its derivatives.
Of course, a manpad almost certainly costs a lot more than an RPG, and is probably rather hard to come by for the Taliban. Thank god for small favors.
I suspect the real reason there are not prox-fused HE RPG rounds is that by the time you design and develop one, the round is no longer cheap, which is the entire beuaty of the RPG. And if you are going to have something expensive, you might as well go with something really effective, which is going to be a IR seeking missile like the Stinger or SA-7.
However, the basic idea is not at all stupid, just ignorant.
I would actually be willing to bet that the US has invested CONSIDERABLE resources from an intelligence standpoint and a diplomatic standpoint to make sure that nobody supplies the taliban with cheap manpads, in the fashion that we did with the Soviets.
Quote from: Ed AngerOkay Ide. A prox fuse on an RPG would defeat its main purpose, penetrating armor on a vehicle. Or blasting holes into buildings. The kinetic energy of a prox fuse would be wasted, since you usually aren't firing at flying objects.
But I'm just a layman,not an expert. But I play one on TV.
Cool.
Quote from: Ideologue on August 08, 2011, 09:56:24 AM
Quote from: Ed AngerOkay Ide. A prox fuse on an RPG would defeat its main purpose, penetrating armor on a vehicle. Or blasting holes into buildings. The kinetic energy of a prox fuse would be wasted, since you usually aren't firing at flying objects.
But I'm just a layman,not an expert. But I play one on TV.
Cool.
I think the bigger issue is that you could put a prox fuse on a RPG round (they do have fuses on them, although they are generally contact set), but then the cost of the fuse would be several times, probably even an order of magnitude or more, greater than the cost of the RPG to begin with.
And if you are going to spend that kind of money, just get a real manpad.
What sucks is that my google searches almost certainly have me on a terrorist watch list now.
Quote from: Ideologue on August 08, 2011, 10:05:49 AM
What sucks is that my google searches almost certainly have me on a terrorist watch list now.
Was is just idle curiosity, or are you looking for some stuff? Just curious. :ph34r: :unsure:
Quote from: DGuller on August 08, 2011, 10:09:48 AM
Quote from: Ideologue on August 08, 2011, 10:05:49 AM
What sucks is that my google searches almost certainly have me on a terrorist watch list now.
Was is just idle curiosity, or are you looking for some stuff? Just curious. :ph34r: :unsure:
Idle curiosity. I'm not very mechanically inclined. I doubt I could get a Molotov cocktail to work right.
Quote from: Ideologue on August 08, 2011, 10:12:54 AM
Idle curiosity. I'm not very mechanically inclined. I doubt I could get a Molotov cocktail to work right.
Oh. :( Good luck with your curiosity.
I know for a fact you can take down a helicopter with a bow, an arrow, and a proximity fused mullet. I saw Stallone do it.
Quote from: Berkut on August 08, 2011, 09:52:00 AM
However, the basic idea is not at all stupid, just ignorant.
See? That wasn't so hard.
I would have assumed that if it was possible, practically and economically (and perhaps most importantly, useful), for the dunecoons to affix proximity fuses they would've done so.
I don't see why Ide should catch such shit for merely asking the question, though.
Quote from: Slargos on August 08, 2011, 10:53:21 AM
Quote from: Berkut on August 08, 2011, 09:52:00 AM
However, the basic idea is not at all stupid, just ignorant.
See? That wasn't so hard.
I would have assumed that if it was possible, practically and economically (and perhaps most importantly, useful), for the dunecoons to affix proximity fuses they would've done so.
I don't see why Ide should catch such shit for merely asking the question, though.
He shouldn't, hence all the shit grumbler caught for throwing so much shit at Ide.
The difference though is that grumbler doesn't care, and Ide does...:P
Not very much.
I'm interested in the subject, though.
I don't know how much Proximity fuses cost, though they built millions using 1940's tech. If they are cheap enough to put on mortar and artillery shells, they probably aren't that expensive.
Quote from: Ideologue on August 08, 2011, 11:13:20 AM
Not very much.
I'm interested in the subject, though.
Another thing you have got to consider is the ranges. Those towelheads and skinnies are flinging RPG rounds at helos flying a few hundred feet up. A prox fuse is wasted when you can see the target and aim at it.
The big problem with RPG-7s is that they aren't very accurate (well that, and they are a really old designed meant to kill 1960's era armored vehicles). After 100 yards it's pretty much a crap shoot. The advantage is they are rugged and cheap. The things are everywhere. They are not an optimal anti-helicopter weapon, though they are sometimes used against US helicopters. Using a timed fuse on a thermobaric warhead (probably with something like nails attached to add fragmentation), could possibly increase the chances of damaging a moving helicopter.
Quote from: Slargos on August 08, 2011, 10:53:21 AM
Quote from: Berkut on August 08, 2011, 09:52:00 AM
However, the basic idea is not at all stupid, just ignorant.
See? That wasn't so hard.
I would have assumed that if it was possible, practically and economically (and perhaps most importantly, useful), for the dunecoons to affix proximity fuses they would've done so.
I don't see why Ide should catch such shit for merely asking the question, though.
Well you did phrase it in a matter of fact way....Kind of like you knew what you were talking about as people are wont to do.
Made me :yeahright: , but I don't have the enthusiasm or motivation to do the grumbler/berkut route.
Quote from: Ed Anger on August 08, 2011, 05:10:47 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on August 08, 2011, 11:13:20 AM
Not very much.
I'm interested in the subject, though.
Another thing you have got to consider is the ranges. Those towelheads and skinnies are flinging RPG rounds at helos flying a few hundred feet up. A prox fuse is wasted when you can see the target and aim at it.
I
want to think I read something about them modifying the time fuze so that even if they missed, it would at least still explode after only a couple seconds of flight instead of the standard 4.5, at (presumed) helicopter altitude. Better than nothing? I also may be misremembering it.
I did find something about a Soviet-made fragmentation round, although it's designed for antipersonnel use and I have no idea if it would be effective against helicopters or if Afghans even have access to them.
Quote from: grumbler on August 07, 2011, 08:14:20 PM
Quote from: mongers on August 07, 2011, 07:29:56 PM
And were did I mention AA rounds in my post ? :hmm:
...Sorry, old chap. Mistook you for somebody who had a clue...
Don't apologize. Being mistaken for someone with a clue is a first for Mongers.
four pages on the RPG-7 and proximity fuse. :lmfao:
Quote from: Alcibiades on August 08, 2011, 05:40:01 PM
Quote from: Slargos on August 08, 2011, 10:53:21 AM
Quote from: Berkut on August 08, 2011, 09:52:00 AM
However, the basic idea is not at all stupid, just ignorant.
See? That wasn't so hard.
I would have assumed that if it was possible, practically and economically (and perhaps most importantly, useful), for the dunecoons to affix proximity fuses they would've done so.
I don't see why Ide should catch such shit for merely asking the question, though.
Well you did phrase it in a matter of fact way....Kind of like you knew what you were talking about as people are wont to do.
Made me :yeahright: , but I don't have the enthusiasm or motivation to do the grumbler/berkut route.
i did?
ide did. :contract:
check yourself before you wreck yourself. :mad:
Quote from: Slargos on August 08, 2011, 11:18:09 PM
check yourself before you wreck yourself. :mad:
That doesn't work with your accent. Cease and desist.
Quote from: Slargos on August 08, 2011, 11:18:09 PM
Quote from: Alcibiades on August 08, 2011, 05:40:01 PM
Quote from: Slargos on August 08, 2011, 10:53:21 AM
Quote from: Berkut on August 08, 2011, 09:52:00 AM
However, the basic idea is not at all stupid, just ignorant.
See? That wasn't so hard.
I would have assumed that if it was possible, practically and economically (and perhaps most importantly, useful), for the dunecoons to affix proximity fuses they would've done so.
I don't see why Ide should catch such shit for merely asking the question, though.
Well you did phrase it in a matter of fact way....Kind of like you knew what you were talking about as people are wont to do.
Made me :yeahright: , but I don't have the enthusiasm or motivation to do the grumbler/berkut route.
i did?
ide did. :contract:
check yourself before you wreck yourself. :mad:
Sorry, "he".
Your avatars look the same at a glance, so I'll continue to mistake you both for the each other.
Quote from: Alcibiades on August 09, 2011, 12:04:39 AM
Quote from: Slargos on August 08, 2011, 11:18:09 PM
Quote from: Alcibiades on August 08, 2011, 05:40:01 PM
Quote from: Slargos on August 08, 2011, 10:53:21 AM
Quote from: Berkut on August 08, 2011, 09:52:00 AM
However, the basic idea is not at all stupid, just ignorant.
See? That wasn't so hard.
I would have assumed that if it was possible, practically and economically (and perhaps most importantly, useful), for the dunecoons to affix proximity fuses they would've done so.
I don't see why Ide should catch such shit for merely asking the question, though.
Well you did phrase it in a matter of fact way....Kind of like you knew what you were talking about as people are wont to do.
Made me :yeahright: , but I don't have the enthusiasm or motivation to do the grumbler/berkut route.
i did?
ide did. :contract:
check yourself before you wreck yourself. :mad:
Sorry, "he".
Your avatars look the same at a glance, so I'll continue to mistake you both for the each other.
Apology accepted. They do look somewhat similar. :sleep:
Quote from: Kleves on August 06, 2011, 12:23:03 PM
It was Seal Team Six that went down. :bleeding:
But...the dog is OK...right? :cry:
This is pretty big news...quite the coup for the taliban there....
Quote from: Tyr on August 09, 2011, 08:03:09 AM
Quote from: Kleves on August 06, 2011, 12:23:03 PM
It was Seal Team Six that went down. :bleeding:
But...the dog is OK...right? :cry:
This is pretty big news...quite the coup for the taliban there....
Meh, not really.
I mean, it sucks that a bunch of good guys were killed, but there are a lot of helicopters flying around Afghanistan with lots of troops in them getting shot at with lots of various weapons. Once and a while the others guys are going to get lucky too.
Quote from: Berkut on August 09, 2011, 08:16:47 AM
Quote from: Tyr on August 09, 2011, 08:03:09 AM
Quote from: Kleves on August 06, 2011, 12:23:03 PM
It was Seal Team Six that went down. :bleeding:
But...the dog is OK...right? :cry:
This is pretty big news...quite the coup for the taliban there....
Meh, not really.
I mean, it sucks that a bunch of good guys were killed, but there are a lot of helicopters flying around Afghanistan with lots of troops in them getting shot at with lots of various weapons. Once and a while the others guys are going to get lucky too.
Turns out being a bad-ass super soldier does
not make you invincible. Whod'a thunk it?
Good men die, yet Slargos lives. Such is the way of things I suppose. :(
Quote from: Razgovory on August 09, 2011, 09:15:02 AM
Good men die, yet Slargos lives. Such is the way of things I suppose. :(
Reported to the proper authorities, threatener. :mad:
I live in a free country.
Quote from: Slargos on August 09, 2011, 09:22:40 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 09, 2011, 09:15:02 AM
Good men die, yet Slargos lives. Such is the way of things I suppose. :(
Reported to the proper authorities, threatener. :mad:
Counter-reported
Quote
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/08/10/taliban-insurgents-behind-afghan-chopper-crash-killed-in-airstrike/
NATO Airstrike Kills Taliban Insurgents Behind Afghan Chopper Crash
The Taliban insurgents responsible for shooting down a U.S. helicopter in Afghanistan -- killing 30 Americans -- have been killed in an airstrike, U.S. Gen. John Allen said Wednesday.
"The strike killed Taliban leader Mullah Mohibullah and the insurgent who fired the shot associated with the Aug. 6 downing of the CH-47 helicopter, which resulted in the deaths of 38 Afghan and coalition service members," NATO-ISAF said in a statement.
"Mullah Mohibullah was a key facilitator in an insurgent attack cell led by Din Mohammad, a Taliban leader killed in a previous Special Operations mission," the statement read. "As a leader in Mohammad's network in Tangi valley, Mohibullah had as many as 12 Taliban fighters under his command, including potential suicide bombers."
"After an exhaustive manhunt, Special Operations forces located Mullah Mohibullah and the shooter after receiving multiple intelligence leads and tips from local citizens. The two men were attempting to flee the country in order to avoid capture."
NATO then called for an airstrike after ensuring no civilians were in the area, which resulted in the deaths of Mohibullah, the shooter, and several Taliban associates, according to the statement.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 09, 2011, 04:06:18 PM
Quote from: Slargos on August 09, 2011, 09:22:40 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 09, 2011, 09:15:02 AM
Good men die, yet Slargos lives. Such is the way of things I suppose. :(
Reported to the proper authorities, threatener. :mad:
Counter-reported
Tripple-reported. :mad:
Quote
Mullah Mohibullah
(Silly Party)