An explosive accusation. These officials must have been drunk on power. I hope the media chews them up and spits them out. If true they need to be fired.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-na-guns-scandal-20110719,0,2052417.story
QuoteJustice Department trying to shield officials in guns scandal, ATF chief says
Kenneth Melson, the ATF's acting director, claims Justice Department officials refuse to release a telling internal report on the Fast and Furious operation.
By Richard A. Serrano, Washington Bureau
July 19, 2011
Reporting from Washington—
The Justice Department is trying to protect its political appointees from the Fast and Furious scandal by concealing an internal "smoking gun" report and other documents that acknowledge the role top officials played in the program that allowed firearms to flow illegally into Mexico, according to the head of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.
Kenneth E. Melson, the ATF's acting director, also told congressional investigators this month that the affidavits prepared to obtain wiretaps used in the ill-fated operation were inconsistent with Justice Department officials' public statements about the program. Justice Department officials advised him not to raise his concerns with Congress about "institutional problems" with the Fast and Furious operation, Melson said.
"It was very frustrating to all of us," Melson told congressional investigators in a private meeting over the Fourth of July holiday, "and it appears thoroughly to us that the department is really trying to figure out a way to push the information away from their political appointees at the department."
Not only was the department slow to react, Melson said, but Justice Department officials indicated they did not want him to cooperate with Congress.
A transcript of his comments was released Monday by Rep. Darrell Issa (R-Vista), chairman of the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, and Sen. Charles E. Grassley of Iowa, the top Republican on the Senate Judiciary Committee.
Melson said he wasn't attempting to shield his agency from its share of the blame. He acknowledged an instance in which his agents failed to intercept high-powered weapons when they could have.
"The deputy attorney general's office wasn't very happy with us" at the ATF, Melson said, "because they thought this was an admission that there were mistakes made. Well, there were some mistakes made."
Justice Department officials denied they were stonewalling the congressional investigation. They said they were cooperating and had been providing thousands of pages of documents and other material to investigators.
"Any notion that the department has failed to cooperate with the investigation is simply not based in fact," said Tracy Schmaler, a Justice Department spokeswoman. She added that the department's inspector general's office was reviewing the Fast and Furious operation.
"The department, like the committee, is interested in determining whether Operation Fast and Furious was appropriately handled," Schmaler said.
The intent of Fast and Furious was to allow illegal straw purchasers to buy guns so ATF agents could follow the weapons and ferret out gun-smuggling routes into Mexico. But many of the approximately 1,700 weapons eluded tracing — some even before they were shipped over the border.
Nearly 200 of the weapons were later found at crime scenes in Mexico, and two were recovered at the scene of a U.S. Border Patrol agent's slaying in Arizona in December.
Melson said the Justice Department repeatedly thwarted his attempts to tell investigators about the failures of Fast and Furious, which was run out of the ATF's Phoenix field office. When the ATF reassigned managers in Phoenix, he said, "the department resisted" his offer to tell Congress about the changes. Melson said he was told not to issue any news releases about Fast and Furious and was instructed not to brief rank-and-file ATF agents about the growing scandal.
When Grassley sought to meet with Melson this year, the Justice Department blocked that interview too, Melson said. "This is really just poking [Grassley] in the eye," Melson said he told Justice Department officials. "He's going to get it through the back door anyway, so why are we aggravating this situation?"
Melson said he felt "very torn" when he learned after the operation went awry that some of the Mexican drug cartel leaders targeted in the program were paid informants for the FBI.
"Let me say that I am frustrated and disappointed in the way the whole thing has been handled, unfortunately," he said.
I could have swore you just posted this. Oh well, don't worry. Fox News says it's not happening.
Quote from: Razgovory on July 18, 2011, 11:25:57 PM
I could have swore you just posted this. Oh well, don't worry. Fox News says it's not happening.
This happened on Obama's watch, why would they downplay it?
I don't believe he knew about this, but that's never stopped them for blaming him for something before.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 18, 2011, 11:27:33 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 18, 2011, 11:25:57 PM
I could have swore you just posted this. Oh well, don't worry. Fox News says it's not happening.
This happened on Obama's watch, why would they downplay it?
I don't believe he knew about this, but that's never stopped them for blaming him for something before.
Hurts the gun lobby. The party line is that no guns are coming into Mexico from the US.
"Drunk on power" is probably a good way to put it. Some of the local lawyers and PoliSci professors believe Justice holds more actual judicial power than SCOTUS; the rationale is that SCOTUS might be the last word in the system, but Justice can make certain it never gets into the system in the first place. Seems they've got a track record for ignoring or carpet-sweeping cases they can't win or that will make them look bad.
Quote from: DontSayBanana on July 19, 2011, 12:32:37 AM
"Drunk on power" is probably a good way to put it. Some of the local lawyers and PoliSci professors believe Justice holds more actual judicial power than SCOTUS; the rationale is that SCOTUS might be the last word in the system, but Justice can make certain it never gets into the system in the first place. Seems they've got a track record for ignoring or carpet-sweeping cases they can't win or that will make them look bad.
I'm not sure how this makes a whole lot of sense. DoJ doesn't have any control over what gets to the Supreme Court, except for things that the government loses in lower courts and then has to decide whether or not to appeal to the Supremes. A lot of things that go to the Supreme Court come out of state courts, or arise out of civil cases, and Justice has zero control over that. And ignoring cases that you can't win hardly gives anyone power or demonstrates that they have power.
Obviously, though, justice, like many organizations, has issues with policiing itself internally.
Quote from: DontSayBanana on July 19, 2011, 12:32:37 AM
"Drunk on power" is probably a good way to put it.
To have these allegations plastered over the media is political dynamite. Unless the inquiry is scotched soon, the buzz is that cabinet level officials could get caught in the cross-fire. But does Congress have the ammunition to tar Justice with this black label, or it is just a shot in the dark triggered by some rum staffer looking to make a bang?
Quote from: Razgovory on July 19, 2011, 12:01:21 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 18, 2011, 11:27:33 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 18, 2011, 11:25:57 PM
I could have swore you just posted this. Oh well, don't worry. Fox News says it's not happening.
This happened on Obama's watch, why would they downplay it?
I don't believe he knew about this, but that's never stopped them for blaming him for something before.
Hurts the gun lobby. The party line is that no guns are coming into Mexico from the US.
Right. Funny I first heard about this on Fox News when they were interviewing someone from the NRA who was making the accusation.
Not sure if this is the article that went along with the segment I saw on TV, but: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/04/29/nra-holders-resignation-project-gunrunner-allegations/
Odd way for them to downplay it ;)
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 19, 2011, 10:25:11 AM
Quote from: DontSayBanana on July 19, 2011, 12:32:37 AM
"Drunk on power" is probably a good way to put it.
To have these allegations plastered over the media is political dynamite. Unless the inquiry is scotched soon, the buzz is that cabinet level officials could get caught in the cross-fire. But does Congress have the ammunition to tar Justice with this black label, or it is just a shot in the dark triggered by some rum staffer looking to make a bang?
You shouldn't use the violent metaphors when discussing politics. Someone might get shot.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 19, 2011, 10:25:11 AM
Quote from: DontSayBanana on July 19, 2011, 12:32:37 AM
"Drunk on power" is probably a good way to put it.
To have these allegations plastered over the media is political dynamite. Unless the inquiry is scotched soon, the buzz is that cabinet level officials could get caught in the cross-fire. But does Congress have the ammunition to tar Justice with this black label, or it is just a shot in the dark triggered by some rum staffer looking to make a bang?
You sound like Justice Hugo Black, rushin' to bloody Mary Smith and her fellows at the Justice Department.
I fully support the ATF.
The Justice Department, not so much.
This whole unfortunate issue will probably result in NRA Republicans on the Hill slashing ATF's budget, to pay for their insolence.
Quote from: derspiess on July 19, 2011, 10:44:15 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 19, 2011, 12:01:21 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 18, 2011, 11:27:33 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 18, 2011, 11:25:57 PM
I could have swore you just posted this. Oh well, don't worry. Fox News says it's not happening.
This happened on Obama's watch, why would they downplay it?
I don't believe he knew about this, but that's never stopped them for blaming him for something before.
Hurts the gun lobby. The party line is that no guns are coming into Mexico from the US.
Right. Funny I first heard about this on Fox News when they were interviewing someone from the NRA who was making the accusation.
Not sure if this is the article that went along with the segment I saw on TV, but: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/04/29/nra-holders-resignation-project-gunrunner-allegations/
Odd way for them to downplay it ;)
Oh, maybe they changed policy. I don't get talking points from them anymore.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 19, 2011, 10:25:11 AM
Quote from: DontSayBanana on July 19, 2011, 12:32:37 AM
"Drunk on power" is probably a good way to put it.
To have these allegations plastered over the media is political dynamite. Unless the inquiry is scotched soon, the buzz is that cabinet level officials could get caught in the cross-fire. But does Congress have the ammunition to tar Justice with this black label, or it is just a shot in the dark triggered by some rum staffer looking to make a bang?
:lol: Nice, I thought everybody missed what I was going for in that opening.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 19, 2011, 06:40:49 PM
I fully support the ATF.
The Justice Department, not so much.
This whole unfortunate issue will probably result in NRA Republicans on the Hill slashing ATF's budget, to pay for their insolence.
If they slash the ATF to zero, everyone wins.
I'd be happy to know no more of my tax dollars went to disorganized crime.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 19, 2011, 06:40:49 PM
I fully support the ATF.
The Justice Department, not so much.
This whole unfortunate issue will probably result in NRA Republicans on the Hill slashing ATF's budget, to pay for their insolence.
They'd slash it anyways. They need the money for the increased budget for the Department of Education, or as it will now be known, the Department of Intelligent Design and School Prayer.
Quote from: grumbler on July 19, 2011, 07:10:58 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 19, 2011, 06:40:49 PM
I fully support the ATF.
The Justice Department, not so much.
This whole unfortunate issue will probably result in NRA Republicans on the Hill slashing ATF's budget, to pay for their insolence.
If they slash the ATF to zero, everyone wins.
I'd be happy to know no more of my tax dollars went to disorganized crime.
Shooting Ruby Ridge gun nut assholes is an excellent use of your tax dollars.
Quote from: Neil on July 19, 2011, 07:19:09 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 19, 2011, 06:40:49 PM
I fully support the ATF.
The Justice Department, not so much.
This whole unfortunate issue will probably result in NRA Republicans on the Hill slashing ATF's budget, to pay for their insolence.
They'd slash it anyways. They need the money for the increased budget for the Department of Education, or as it will now be known, the Department of Intelligent Design and School Prayer.
Now you're just going over the top. :rolleyes:
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 19, 2011, 07:37:07 PM
Quote from: Neil on July 19, 2011, 07:19:09 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 19, 2011, 06:40:49 PM
I fully support the ATF.
The Justice Department, not so much.
This whole unfortunate issue will probably result in NRA Republicans on the Hill slashing ATF's budget, to pay for their insolence.
They'd slash it anyways. They need the money for the increased budget for the Department of Education, or as it will now be known, the Department of Intelligent Design and School Prayer.
Now you're just going over the top. :rolleyes:
I don't think that there's any depths that these new Republicans wouldn't sink to. They've pretty much swept away almost all of the moderate wing of the party, and in 2012 they'll be looking to finish the job.
Quote from: Neil on July 19, 2011, 07:25:27 PM
Shooting Ruby Ridge gun nut assholes is an excellent use of your tax dollars.
Ruby Ridge was the FBI. The ATF just carried out the initial arrest that set up the trial.
Quote from: grumbler on July 19, 2011, 08:11:35 PM
Quote from: Neil on July 19, 2011, 07:25:27 PM
Shooting Ruby Ridge gun nut assholes is an excellent use of your tax dollars.
Ruby Ridge was the FBI. The ATF just carried out the initial arrest that set up the trial.
Well, then I suppose you're right. Just roll the ATF into the FBI and let the FBI handle the shooting of militia group crazies.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 19, 2011, 10:25:11 AM
To have these allegations plastered over the media is political dynamite. Unless the inquiry is scotched soon, the buzz is that cabinet level officials could get caught in the cross-fire. But does Congress have the ammunition to tar Justice with this black label, or it is just a shot in the dark triggered by some rum staffer looking to make a bang?
WPOTM! :hmm: