Surprised no thread yet.
Anyhoo, Obama has announced 10,000 out by the end of this year and 23,000 more next year.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 23, 2011, 05:50:25 PM
Surprised no thread yet.
Anyhoo, Obama has announced 10,000 out by the end of this year and 23,000 more next year.
Is it that significant ?
What matters is negotiating a peace deal with the Taliban, where they're brought into a coalition Afghan government; that would be the bigger influence on the long term success or failure of the US intervention in the country.
Quote from: mongers on June 23, 2011, 06:00:04 PM
Is it that significant ?
Is it how significant? Significant enough to warrant a thread? :unsure:
My main motivation was to crow to Shelf and his ilk that it was not really a deadline when originally announced.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 23, 2011, 06:14:58 PM
Quote from: mongers on June 23, 2011, 06:00:04 PM
Is it that significant ?
Is it how significant? Significant enough to warrant a thread? :unsure:
My main motivation was to crow to Shelf and his ilk that it was not really a deadline when originally announced.
It would have been very significant if Obama had gone with the big rapid draw-down after the mini-surge, but I think the recent announcement of talks with the taliban if far more important, did we have a thread on it ?
I think there can only really be a political 'solution' to the Afghan problem, wars in that country seem all but unwinable.
Quote from: mongers on June 23, 2011, 06:00:04 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 23, 2011, 05:50:25 PM
Surprised no thread yet.
Anyhoo, Obama has announced 10,000 out by the end of this year and 23,000 more next year.
Is it that significant ?
What matters is negotiating a peace deal with the Taliban, where they're brought into a coalition Afghan government; that would be the bigger influence on the long term success or failure of the US intervention in the country.
As significant as 99% of the other thread starts, I'd say.
I will admit I was a bit surprised by this. Or, well, I guess that's the wrong word. They obviously weren't going to stay forever. I doubt the Afghans are ready to fend for themselves though.
Vietnam all over again.
The thread title is ridiculous. There will still be 68,000 troops in Afghanistan after this drawdown, twice as many as there was in 2008.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 23, 2011, 06:39:15 PM
The thread title is ridiculous. There will still be 68,000 troops in Afghanistan after this drawdown, twice as many as there was in 2008.
Where'd you get those numbers from Timmy?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 23, 2011, 06:46:42 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 23, 2011, 06:39:15 PM
The thread title is ridiculous. There will still be 68,000 troops in Afghanistan after this drawdown, twice as many as there was in 2008.
Where'd you get those numbers from Timmy?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43509129/ns/politics-white_house/
Quotethere's still some fighting to be done, and then we're still going to have 68,000 and, frankly, the 10th Mountain Division is still going to be represented there until we've fully transferred to the Afghan military and security forces."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coalition_combat_operations_in_Afghanistan_in_2008#United_States
QuoteThe United States had 32,500 military personnel (of which 23,550 were with ISAF) in Afghanistan in 2008.
Quote from: mongers on June 23, 2011, 06:00:04 PM
What matters is negotiating a peace deal with the Taliban, where they're brought into a coalition Afghan government; that would be the bigger influence on the long term success or failure of the US intervention in the country.
By peace deal, do you mean surrender? Because that's how those things tend to go.
Yeah Timmy, that 68 number seems to be all troops, not just US. Notice in the same sentence he talks about surging 33,000. You can't surge 33,000, withdraw 33,000, then end up with twice the troops you started with.
Quote from: mongers on June 23, 2011, 06:00:04 PM
What matters is negotiating a peace deal with the Taliban, where they're brought into a coalition Afghan government; that would be the bigger influence on the long term success or failure of the US intervention in the country.
We don't want those assholes running anything.
Wouldn't it be easier to support the Afghan government from a distance, and if the Taliban starts to take over to intervene again? It has been 10 years.
Quote from: Slargos on June 23, 2011, 06:30:25 PM
As significant as 99% of the other thread starts, I'd say.
I will admit I was a bit surprised by this. Or, well, I guess that's the wrong word. They obviously weren't going to stay forever. I doubt the Afghans are ready to fend for themselves though.
Vietnam all over again.
I disagree, in Vietnam the country last the appetite for the fight, but here the fight has just become pointless. There aren't reasonable ways to eliminate every taliban, or make a country like Afghanistan a western style democracy. This is as good as we can reasonably expect to do. If the Taliban starts a comeback, we won't send helicopters to evacuate Kabul--we will send ground units beat the Taliban back.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on June 23, 2011, 06:58:57 PM
Quote from: mongers on June 23, 2011, 06:00:04 PM
What matters is negotiating a peace deal with the Taliban, where they're brought into a coalition Afghan government; that would be the bigger influence on the long term success or failure of the US intervention in the country.
We don't want those assholes running anything.
Nobody does. But I'm getting so tired of supporting assholes like Karzai.
As long as the Taliban understands that we will glass them if they harbor al Qaeda, they can have that shitty country.
Quote from: derspiess on June 23, 2011, 07:16:45 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on June 23, 2011, 06:58:57 PM
Quote from: mongers on June 23, 2011, 06:00:04 PM
What matters is negotiating a peace deal with the Taliban, where they're brought into a coalition Afghan government; that would be the bigger influence on the long term success or failure of the US intervention in the country.
We don't want those assholes running anything.
Nobody does. But I'm getting so tired of supporting assholes like Karzai.
As long as the Taliban understands that we will glass them if they harbor al Qaeda, they can have that shitty country.
He and his kleptomaniac inner circle have a disaster for the country and process of recovery.
Quote from: alfred russel on June 23, 2011, 07:15:49 PM
Quote from: Slargos on June 23, 2011, 06:30:25 PM
As significant as 99% of the other thread starts, I'd say.
I will admit I was a bit surprised by this. Or, well, I guess that's the wrong word. They obviously weren't going to stay forever. I doubt the Afghans are ready to fend for themselves though.
Vietnam all over again.
I disagree, in Vietnam the country last the appetite for the fight, but here the fight has just become pointless. There aren't reasonable ways to eliminate every taliban, or make a country like Afghanistan a western style democracy. This is as good as we can reasonably expect to do. If the Taliban starts a comeback, we won't send helicopters to evacuate Kabul--we will send ground units beat the Taliban back.
6 of one, half-dozen of the other.
In 1971 a quarter of the US population supported the war.
In 2011 a third does.
A difference, but not a huge one.
Can the President afford (financially but perhaps more importantly politically) a new Surge should the Taliban redouble their efforts rather than negotiate once the withdrawal is under way?
Quote from: Slargos on June 23, 2011, 07:27:36 PM
6 of one, half-dozen of the other.
In 1971 a quarter of the US population supported the war.
In 2011 a third does.
A difference, but not a huge one.
Can the President afford (financially but perhaps more importantly politically) a new Surge should the Taliban redouble their efforts rather than negotiate once the withdrawal is under way?
The polls don't give close to the full story. The situation in Vietnam was toxic in this country and the dominant political event. Afghanistan is way down the list of things people are worried about. There really isn't much of an anti Afghanistan movement to speak of. But if the Taliban make a comeback, I suspect people will start caring in a big way, and be pro intervention. Getting rid of the Taliban was extremely popular, chasing down a few guys in the hills is kind of meh.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 23, 2011, 06:57:29 PM
Yeah Timmy, that 68 number seems to be all troops, not just US. Notice in the same sentence he talks about surging 33,000. You can't surge 33,000, withdraw 33,000, then end up with twice the troops you started with.
We currently have 100,000 troops in country. Obama started increasing troop strength immediately. Only the last 33k that were sent out after December 2009 were the surge.
Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/maryland-sen-cardin-says-timeline-for-troop-withdrawal-from-afghanistan-can-be-sped-up/2011/06/23/AG1NOIhH_story.html)
QuoteObama's plan, announced Wednesday, calls for bringing 33,000 U.S. troops home from Afghanistan by next summer. After those forces leave, there will still be nearly 70,000 U.S. troops in Afghanistan.
CBS News (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20073543-503544.html#ixzz1Q9NzF4xW)
QuoteThe president's plan calls for withdrawing 10,000 US troops from Afghanistan by the end of this year. He said all 33,000 of the surge forces deployed starting at the end of 2009, would be out by next summer. That would still leave 68,000 American military personnel in country.
LA Times (http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-pn-obama-afghanistan-fort-drum-20110623,0,3736812.story)
QuoteAbout 23,000 troops would come home in 2012, leaving about 68,000 U.S. troops in Afghanistan to continue fighting the Taliban and help the Afghan government build its security forces.
I'm unsure what exactly the NATO can actually do in Afghanistan. Building a nation there is like trying to sculpt a statue from jello. Would another 10 years of occupation actually improve the situation?
Nice documentation Timmy. :)
Quote from: derspiess on June 23, 2011, 07:16:45 PM
Nobody does. But I'm getting so tired of supporting assholes like Karzai.
As long as the Taliban understands that we will glass them if they harbor al Qaeda, they can have that shitty country.
I've almost moved to this position myself. The US is going to have to be ready to take in a lot of refugees, because we encouraged a lot of moderates to stick out their necks, and we owe it to them to provide an alternative to getting them chopped, but it it clear that there is no responsible, moderate government possible in Afghanistan.
Quote from: mongers on June 23, 2011, 07:24:32 PM
He and his kleptomaniac inner circle have a disaster for the country and process of recovery.
Yeah, but any Afghan you put in charge will plunder the state, and giving the country a colonial administration is politically unacceptable.
Karzai might be the best option out there.
Quote from: alfred russel on June 23, 2011, 07:37:28 PM
Quote from: Slargos on June 23, 2011, 07:27:36 PM
6 of one, half-dozen of the other.
In 1971 a quarter of the US population supported the war.
In 2011 a third does.
A difference, but not a huge one.
Can the President afford (financially but perhaps more importantly politically) a new Surge should the Taliban redouble their efforts rather than negotiate once the withdrawal is under way?
The polls don't give close to the full story. The situation in Vietnam was toxic in this country and the dominant political event. Afghanistan is way down the list of things people are worried about. There really isn't much of an anti Afghanistan movement to speak of. But if the Taliban make a comeback, I suspect people will start caring in a big way, and be pro intervention. Getting rid of the Taliban was extremely popular, chasing down a few guys in the hills is kind of meh.
Indeed.
Quote from: Neil on June 23, 2011, 08:50:49 PM
Quote from: mongers on June 23, 2011, 07:24:32 PM
He and his kleptomaniac inner circle have a disaster for the country and process of recovery.
Yeah, but any Afghan you put in charge will plunder the state, and giving the country a colonial administration is politically unacceptable.
Karzai might be the best option out there.
I'm okay with him staying, just not on our dime. Iran seems to be willing to bankroll him and his cronies, so let's let them pick up the whole tab.
Quote from: alfred russel on June 23, 2011, 07:15:49 PM
Quote from: Slargos on June 23, 2011, 06:30:25 PM
As significant as 99% of the other thread starts, I'd say.
I will admit I was a bit surprised by this. Or, well, I guess that's the wrong word. They obviously weren't going to stay forever. I doubt the Afghans are ready to fend for themselves though.
Vietnam all over again.
I disagree, in Vietnam the country last the appetite for the fight, but here the fight has just become pointless. There aren't reasonable ways to eliminate every taliban, or make a country like Afghanistan a western style democracy. This is as good as we can reasonably expect to do. If the Taliban starts a comeback, we won't send helicopters to evacuate Kabul--we will send ground units beat the Taliban back.
The Soviets had a pretty good idea of how to do it.
Quote from: grumbler on June 23, 2011, 08:48:32 PM
Quote from: derspiess on June 23, 2011, 07:16:45 PM
Nobody does. But I'm getting so tired of supporting assholes like Karzai.
As long as the Taliban understands that we will glass them if they harbor al Qaeda, they can have that shitty country.
I've almost moved to this position myself. The US is going to have to be ready to take in a lot of refugees, because we encouraged a lot of moderates to stick out their necks, and we owe it to them to provide an alternative to getting them chopped, but it it clear that there is no responsible, moderate government possible in Afghanistan.
What keeps you from adopting this position?
Quote from: mongers on June 23, 2011, 07:24:32 PMHe and his kleptomaniac inner circle have a disaster for the country and process of recovery.
Recovery implies that things used to be better. I'm not sure they were.
Quote from: mongers on June 23, 2011, 07:24:32 PMHe and his kleptomaniac inner circle have a disaster for the country and process of recovery.
That's the way they do business. If suitcases full of cash is the way to get things done, that's the way it is.
Remember, these are the people who play polo with a dead goat, and most have no last names. Some cultures can only grasp trinkets and baubles.
Quote from: Jacob on June 24, 2011, 12:47:43 AM
Quote from: mongers on June 23, 2011, 07:24:32 PMHe and his kleptomaniac inner circle have a disaster for the country and process of recovery.
Recovery implies that things used to be better. I'm not sure they were.
Prior to1973, they were. But that's a lot of history to roll back, and given the demographics, the vast majority of their population doesn't remember that period.
The only reason for America to stay is to keep the place from being a safe haven for AQ terrorists. But since Pakistan fills that role anyway does it really matter that much?
Quote from: grumbler on June 23, 2011, 08:48:32 PM
Quote from: derspiess on June 23, 2011, 07:16:45 PM
Nobody does. But I'm getting so tired of supporting assholes like Karzai.
As long as the Taliban understands that we will glass them if they harbor al Qaeda, they can have that shitty country.
I've almost moved to this position myself. The US is going to have to be ready to take in a lot of refugees, because we encouraged a lot of moderates to stick out their necks, and we owe it to them to provide an alternative to getting them chopped, but it it clear that there is no responsible, moderate government possible in Afghanistan.
In the last Afghan election, I was hoping that Abdullah would win. He seemed to be the anti-Karzai and possibly could have done more to unite the Afghan people, and make better attempts to bring better governing. At least he spoke about such things. Hard to say though in that really messy political culture and society.
Quote from: The Brain on June 24, 2011, 03:22:44 AM
The only reason for America to stay is to keep the place from being a safe haven for AQ terrorists. But since Pakistan fills that role anyway does it really matter that much?
At this point a more efficient strategy would be to withdraw but be prepared to smash any AQ camps/operatives our intel finds. Which is more or less the approach we've taken with Pakistan.
Euthydemus I FTW!
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F7%2F7a%2FAgathoklesCoinWithEuthydemusTheou.JPG%2F300px-AgathoklesCoinWithEuthydemusTheou.JPG&hash=e23a07a65994959bbb99447a05a5155305c7e018)
Although, you might not want Greeks in charge of anything these days.
Modern Greeks are actually a Turko-Slav mix, with the worst of both peoples.
2nd century BCE Afghanistan
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.archeo.ens.fr%2Flocal%2Fcache-vignettes%2FL430xH323%2FAi_KWeb-cd7dd.jpg&hash=d873beda1e450fecbd5b073d769074a538224fe6)
Quote from: citizen k on June 24, 2011, 01:30:42 PM
2nd century BCE Afghanistan
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.archeo.ens.fr%2Flocal%2Fcache-vignettes%2FL430xH323%2FAi_KWeb-cd7dd.jpg&hash=d873beda1e450fecbd5b073d769074a538224fe6)
Whoa! 3D rendering is an older technology than I thought.
That's probably through the rose-tinted glasses of nostalgia, like that Kabul-in-the-60s book. I'm betting only the posher neighborhoods had theaters that big.
Quote from: Jacob on June 24, 2011, 02:25:06 PM
Quote from: citizen k on June 24, 2011, 01:30:42 PM
2nd century BCE Afghanistan
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.archeo.ens.fr%2Flocal%2Fcache-vignettes%2FL430xH323%2FAi_KWeb-cd7dd.jpg&hash=d873beda1e450fecbd5b073d769074a538224fe6)
Whoa! 3D rendering is an older technology than I thought.
Very funny. The city is called Ai Khanoum.
Quote from: citizen k on June 24, 2011, 02:30:28 PM
The city is called Ai Khanoum.
Possibly Alexandria on Oxus.
Today:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.livius.org%2Fa%2Fafghanistan%2Fai_khanum%2Fai_khanum.jpg&hash=41a44c6536fedc8b5fea9f50dd22c380c06ad12f)
Quote from: Neil on June 24, 2011, 01:24:22 PM
Modern Greeks are actually a Turko-Slav mix, with the worst of both peoples.
What?
Where are the real greeks?
Quote from: Siege on June 24, 2011, 07:34:16 PM
Quote from: Neil on June 24, 2011, 01:24:22 PM
Modern Greeks are actually a Turko-Slav mix, with the worst of both peoples.
What?
Where are the real greeks?
Shagged into dilution.
And Turkey.
Quote from: grumbler on June 23, 2011, 08:48:32 PM
Quote from: derspiess on June 23, 2011, 07:16:45 PM
Nobody does. But I'm getting so tired of supporting assholes like Karzai.
As long as the Taliban understands that we will glass them if they harbor al Qaeda, they can have that shitty country.
I've almost moved to this position myself. The US is going to have to be ready to take in a lot of refugees, because we encouraged a lot of moderates to stick out their necks, and we owe it to them to provide an alternative to getting them chopped, but it it clear that there is no responsible, moderate government possible in Afghanistan.
I agree.
Fuck Afghanistan, anyway. That would make a nice parking lot for bombing North Korea.
Quote from: Siege on June 24, 2011, 07:34:16 PM
Quote from: Neil on June 24, 2011, 01:24:22 PM
Modern Greeks are actually a Turko-Slav mix, with the worst of both peoples.
What?
Where are the real greeks?
Conquered and bred out of existence.
I'm not comfortable with leaving Afghanistan unless Pakistan pays a very heavy price for reannexing the place via the Taliban.
Leave Afghanistan, nuke Pakistan off the face of the Earth sounds good to me.
Quote from: Neil on June 24, 2011, 08:09:27 PM
Quote from: Siege on June 24, 2011, 07:34:16 PM
Quote from: Neil on June 24, 2011, 01:24:22 PM
Modern Greeks are actually a Turko-Slav mix, with the worst of both peoples.
What?
Where are the real greeks?
Conquered and bred out of existence.
The same fate as awaits the rest of the West. :hmm:
Quote from: Slargos on June 25, 2011, 03:37:47 AMThe same fate as awaits the rest of the West. :hmm:
Then maybe you'll finally shut up?
Quote from: Jacob on June 25, 2011, 10:58:32 AM
Quote from: Slargos on June 25, 2011, 03:37:47 AMThe same fate as awaits the rest of the West. :hmm:
Then maybe you'll finally shut up?
No, because then the West will be like Slargos, and he'll be all "I told you so!"
Quote from: Jacob on June 25, 2011, 10:58:32 AM
Quote from: Slargos on June 25, 2011, 03:37:47 AMThe same fate as awaits the rest of the West. :hmm:
Then maybe you'll finally shut up?
Death
may shut me up. :hmm:
But if at all possible, and if I go before you, I will haunt you as a racist poltergeist.
Quote from: Slargos on June 25, 2011, 02:26:51 PM
Death may shut me up. :hmm:
But if at all possible, and if I go before you, I will haunt you as a racist poltergeist.
It's nice to have a hobby.
Racist ghosts haven't been very effective since the 20's.
Quote from: Neil on June 24, 2011, 08:09:27 PM
Conquered and bred out of existence.
They spread out all over the place before that happened. There's a little bit of Greek in all the peoples of the Med.
Quote from: Slargos on June 25, 2011, 02:26:51 PM
But if at all possible, and if I go before you, I will haunt you as a racist poltergeist.
:lol:
Of all the people in the entire world whom you disapprove of, you'd pick me to haunt? Shows how limited your scope is.
Indeed, I'd be haunting HOTT babes.
Quote from: Tonitrus on June 25, 2011, 11:21:30 PM
Indeed, I'd be haunting HOTT babes.
Jacob already has one. It's a two-fer.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 23, 2011, 07:58:06 PM
Nice documentation Timmy. :)
Is this your way of admitting your thread's title was retarded and you are full of shit? :)
Quote from: Martinus on June 26, 2011, 04:29:16 AM
Is this your way of admitting your thread's title was retarded and you are full of shit? :)
No.
Quote from: Slargos on June 26, 2011, 02:16:31 AM
Quote from: Tonitrus on June 25, 2011, 11:21:30 PM
Indeed, I'd be haunting HOTT babes.
Jacob already has one. It's a two-fer.
Slargos has yellow fever? :blink:
Quote from: citizen k on June 24, 2011, 04:55:58 PM
Quote from: citizen k on June 24, 2011, 02:30:28 PM
The city is called Ai Khanoum.
Possibly Alexandria on Oxus.
Today:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.livius.org%2Fa%2Fafghanistan%2Fai_khanum%2Fai_khanum.jpg&hash=41a44c6536fedc8b5fea9f50dd22c380c06ad12f)
Lol is it: still the most modern city in Afghanistan?
Quote from: Siege on June 27, 2011, 02:24:55 PMToo many of them are short and fat.
And old.
Most ethnic groups include old people :huh:
Quote from: Jacob on June 27, 2011, 02:40:55 PM
Quote from: Siege on June 27, 2011, 02:24:55 PMToo many of them are short and fat.
And old.
Most ethnic group includes old people :huh:
Yeah but the Chinese have the most of them :P
I want to hear more about Slargos stalking Jacob's hott Chinaman girl wife. :)
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 27, 2011, 03:24:53 PM
I want to hear more about Slargos stalking Jacob's hott Chinaman girl wife. :)
Slargos is so racist that he would fuck himself before fucking a chinese girl from "Girls' Generation"
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.musicasia.net%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2009%2F07%2Fgirl-generation-02.jpg&hash=678ff2974ac3ad6f2e62a382a8196b41390a66fb)
Though I would understand Slargos on the grounds that they are way too fat and too old.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fl.yimg.com%2Fbt%2Fapi%2Fres%2F1.2%2FN.E52nNAnLjcr6GLMLX.ww--%2FYXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9aW5zZXQ7aD0zMzU7cT04NTt3PTYzMA--%2Fhttp%3A%2F%2Fmedia.zenfs.com%2Fen_us%2FNews%2Fap_webfeeds%2Fb024c5647c7a7a0ef10e6a7067006266.jpg&hash=3f1ddae657168e790780914583f2e917816e0455)
The Inter Continental hotel is on fire during an attack in Kabul, Afghanistan, Wednesday, June 29, 2011. A more than four-hour standoff between militants and Afghan police at the Western-style hotel ended early Wednesday when NATO helicopters fired rockets at gunmen on the rooftop of the besieged hotel and Afghan security forces stormed the top of the building. (AP Photo/Gemunu Amarasinghe)
I fail to see what a burning hotel in Kabul, has to do with a serious discussion about asian girls...