QuoteShould protesters be arrested for 'expressive dancing'?
A recent federal court decision that declared illegal "expressive dancing" inside the Thomas Jefferson Memorial in D.C. caused quite a stir this weekend.
Five people were arrested -- and one apparently choked and slammed -- by U.S. Park Police Saturday as they silently danced at the memorial.
The incident has sparked a debate over whether (and where) dance is protected free speech and whether Park Police went overboard in their treatment of the dancers.
Federal regulations require anyone holding a demonstration at the memorial to get a permit. A demonstration is defined by the regulation as an act of expression "which has the effect, intent or propensity to draw a crowd or onlookers."
A key distinction in the issue is whether the demonstration takes place inside or outside of the memorial.
"Aside from the official birthday ceremony, no demonstrations of any size are allowed inside the Memorial," Judge Thomas Griffith of the U.S. Court of Appeals in D.C. wrote in his ruling, which sparked the controversy. "... Outside the Jefferson Memorial, of course, [protesters] have always been free to dance to their hearts' content."
Protesting the judge's ruling, the dancers, who were organized by Internet show host Adam Kokesh, set out to prove a point in front of a statue of Jefferson, a champion of free speech.
The dancers were warned that they would be arrested if they danced inside the memorial, but they chose to do so anyway.
"If you come out here and demonstrate by dancing, you will be placed under arrest," an officer told them, according to a YouTube video of the arrests. The officer also told them they would have to spend the weekend in jail.
The first two protesters police arrested were slow-dancing and not causing much of a scene. Once the arrests started, the rhetoric and physical confrontations escalated.
Protesters were heard telling the police "You hate America" and "You hate the Constitution." Police got physical, and shoved around several of the protesters. An officer is seen slamming Kokesh to the ground and putting a hand around his throat.
"This is a police state!" one of the dancers shouted as he was being escorted out in handcuffs. "You cannot shut me up. That is not the way this works. You cannot shut anyone up. You cannot stop them from dancing. You cannot stop them from kissing. ... We did absolutely nothing wrong."
Here's a video for Marty to not disparage the police, because they're arresting heteros. And if there's one thing Marty can't stand more than cops, it's heteros:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jUU3yCy3uI&feature=player_embedded#at=254
Quoteand one apparently choked and slammed -- by U.S. Park Police
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FP0PxA.jpg&hash=d894405223ac90498fb24d72e723085ff2741b6f)
If the police hadn't been there, no disturbance would have been made. The police created the disruption.
Quote from: JonasSalk on May 30, 2011, 06:45:48 PM
If the police hadn't been there, no disturbance would have been made. The police created the disruption.
If the Memorial hadn't been there, no disturbance would have been possible. Had Jefferson never been president, the memorial wouldn't be there. The voters of 1800 created the disruption.
I see nothing wrong with this.
Quoteand one apparently choked and slammed -- by U.S. Park Police
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.studentsoftheworld.info%2Fsites%2Fsport%2Fimg%2F274_Choke%2520Slam.jpg&hash=48a95e653b39678d8de01580325c2a0fcc2aa0b1)
Quote from: grumbler on May 30, 2011, 06:51:03 PM
Quote from: JonasSalk on May 30, 2011, 06:45:48 PM
If the police hadn't been there, no disturbance would have been made. The police created the disruption.
If the Memorial hadn't been there, no disturbance would have been possible. Had Jefferson never been president, the memorial wouldn't be there. The voters of 1800 created the disruption.
Really, it's Thnurg's fault for creating stone tools.
Throw the book at them. Flash mobs are annoying.
Quote from: garbon on May 30, 2011, 08:45:39 PM
Throw the book at them. Flash mobs are annoying.
:yes:
Even worse, it's a
libertarian flash mob. They should all be executed without trial.
isn't it ironic though...
Free speech, as Hans has taught me, primarily exists to bribe politicians. Dancing without first creating a Flash Mob Lobby is an outrageous abuse of our system. :sleep:
If you have a right to dance inside a monument, then is it okay if you put a hat in front of you? I'm envisioning a world where you have to fight through a sea of michael jackson impersonators to see major monuments or public museums.
I'd say that stuff like this is covered by laws against creating a public nuisance.
I read this as flamenco dancing which, while admirable, is certainly not constitutionally protected.
I found it hilarious how this silly white yuppie phenomenon was translated into mass violence against persons and property by black teenagers in Philadelphia on South Street when I was living there.
I imagine those guys have to deal with annoying kooks every day. They probably relish the chances they get to strangle them.
They deserved it.
"This is America, This is America, This is America", thats right bitch eat pavement or er.... marble.
Got to love pepper spray
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgi5ESpueX8
and pepper ball guns
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfhUaUuG1sM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hIIuJK_Uh8&feature=related
"Give peace a chance, Give peace a chance, Give peace a chance," cough...cough.... :lmfao:
Quote from: Razgovory on May 31, 2011, 10:33:07 PM
I imagine those guys have to deal with annoying kooks every day. They probably relish the chances they get to strangle them.
Fellow bike patrol officers. IPMBA :showoff:
Why does the only possible alternative seem to be "engaging in protected speech" or "being slammed and knocked to the ground by the police"? Why is there no option: "Politely asking them to leave"? :hmm:
They wouldn't be very good protesters if they just said "okay" and left after that.
Quote from: Martinus on June 01, 2011, 01:21:20 AM
Why does the only possible alternative seem to be "engaging in protected speech" or "being slammed and knocked to the ground by the police"? Why is there no option: "Politely asking them to leave"? :hmm:
That's the part in between.
"You need to leave."
"No. I know my rights! Wakka wakka!"
"...sigh..."
Quote from: Martinus on June 01, 2011, 01:21:20 AM
Why does the only possible alternative seem to be "engaging in protected speech" or "being slammed and knocked to the ground by the police"? Why is there no option: "Politely asking them to leave"? :hmm:
Why would you think that the only possible alternative seem to be "engaging in protected speech" or "being slammed and knocked to the ground by the police"? Why would you think is there no option: "Politely asking them to leave"? :hmm:
Quote from: Martinus on June 01, 2011, 01:21:20 AM
Why does the only possible alternative seem to be "engaging in protected speech" or "being slammed and knocked to the ground by the police"? Why is there no option: "Politely asking them to leave"? :hmm:
Perhaps you should watch the entire video.
Quote from: Martinus on June 01, 2011, 01:21:20 AM
Why does the only possible alternative seem to be "engaging in protected speech" or "being slammed and knocked to the ground by the police"? Why is there no option: "Politely asking them to leave"? :hmm:
They kinda provoked the cops into this. Granted the cops probably should have shown some restraint but there we go.
Quote from: Martinus on June 01, 2011, 01:21:20 AM
Why does the only possible alternative seem to be "engaging in protected speech" or "being slammed and knocked to the ground by the police"? Why is there no option: "Politely asking them to leave"? :hmm:
Marty, you seem unfamiliar with the entire MO of protestors (or you are being disingenuous).
They want to provoke the police into doing something, anything, that they can call excessive force. That's how they get publicity in the first place - they don't get it for the initial protest, but they do for the 'police brutality' complaint.
Quote from: Barrister on June 01, 2011, 09:58:09 AM
Marty, you seem unfamiliar with the entire MO of protestors (or you are being disingenuous).
They want to provoke the police into doing something, anything, that they can call excessive force. That's how they get publicity in the first place - they don't get it for the initial protest, but they do for the 'police brutality' complaint.
Yep. Granted it might be a little ridiculous there exists a law against flashmobs inside the Jefferson Memorial but that is not the fault of the Police. They enforce the laws, they do not legislate or interpret them.
Quote from: Barrister on June 01, 2011, 09:58:09 AM
Marty, you seem unfamiliar with the entire MO of protestors (or you are being disingenuous).
They want to provoke the police into doing something, anything, that they can call excessive force. That's how they get publicity in the first place - they don't get it for the initial protest, but they do for the 'police brutality' complaint.
I've participated in protest marches and my goal wasn't to provoke the police but rather to garner attention to the cause. But then I was living in SF where any protest garnered attention. -_-
Quote from: garbon on June 01, 2011, 10:10:24 AM
Quote from: Barrister on June 01, 2011, 09:58:09 AM
Marty, you seem unfamiliar with the entire MO of protestors (or you are being disingenuous).
They want to provoke the police into doing something, anything, that they can call excessive force. That's how they get publicity in the first place - they don't get it for the initial protest, but they do for the 'police brutality' complaint.
I've participated in protest marches
WTF is wrong with you?
Quote from: garbon on June 01, 2011, 10:10:24 AM
I've participated in protest marches and my goal wasn't to provoke the police but rather to garner attention to the cause. But then I was living in SF where any protest garnered attention. -_-
Well in DC you cannot go anywhere without seeing some sort of protest. I guess getting manhandled by cops at least gives them a thread on discussion boards.
Quote from: The Brain on June 01, 2011, 10:22:36 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 01, 2011, 10:10:24 AM
Quote from: Barrister on June 01, 2011, 09:58:09 AM
Marty, you seem unfamiliar with the entire MO of protestors (or you are being disingenuous).
They want to provoke the police into doing something, anything, that they can call excessive force. That's how they get publicity in the first place - they don't get it for the initial protest, but they do for the 'police brutality' complaint.
I've participated in protest marches
WTF is wrong with you?
What part of "I was in San Francisco", didn't you understand?
Quote from: Barrister on June 01, 2011, 09:58:09 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 01, 2011, 01:21:20 AM
Why does the only possible alternative seem to be "engaging in protected speech" or "being slammed and knocked to the ground by the police"? Why is there no option: "Politely asking them to leave"? :hmm:
Marty, you seem unfamiliar with the entire MO of protestors (or you are being disingenuous).
They want to provoke the police into doing something, anything, that they can call excessive force. That's how they get publicity in the first place - they don't get it for the initial protest, but they do for the 'police brutality' complaint.
Seattle WTO protest
Quote from: 11B4V on June 01, 2011, 11:08:53 AM
Seattle WTO protest
Those guys are a tad different. They actually want to provoke violence for the sake of anarchy.
Quote from: Valmy on June 01, 2011, 11:14:15 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 01, 2011, 11:08:53 AM
Seattle WTO protest
Those guys are a tad different. They actually want to provoke violence for the sake of anarchy.
What are the guys at the Jefferson Memorial doing it for the sake of?
Quote from: dps on June 01, 2011, 02:45:46 PM
What are the guys at the Jefferson Memorial doing it for the sake of?
They want the cops to beat them so they can show how oppressive The Man(tm) is I presume.
Quote from: Valmy on June 01, 2011, 02:56:14 PM
Quote from: dps on June 01, 2011, 02:45:46 PM
What are the guys at the Jefferson Memorial doing it for the sake of?
They want the cops to beat them so they can show how oppressive The Man(tm) is I presume.
So isn't that just about the same as doing it for the sake of anarchy?
Quote from: dps on June 01, 2011, 03:09:57 PM
So isn't that just about the same as doing it for the sake of anarchy?
Um no since those people want to be victims not violently overthrow world capitalism or whatever.
Quote from: Valmy on June 01, 2011, 03:22:01 PM
Quote from: dps on June 01, 2011, 03:09:57 PM
So isn't that just about the same as doing it for the sake of anarchy?
Um no since those people want to be victims not violently overthrow world capitalism or whatever.
So you're saying that it's essentially just masochism?
Quote from: dps on June 01, 2011, 04:00:03 PM
So you're saying that it's essentially just masochism?
No I am saying one group is very dangerous and the other is annoying but harmless.
Quote from: 11B4V on May 31, 2011, 10:47:41 PM
and pepper ball guns
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfhUaUuG1sM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hIIuJK_Uh8&feature=related
"Give peace a chance, Give peace a chance, Give peace a chance," cough...cough.... :lmfao:
I love using the pepper ball guns in SWAT 4. I just go through the whole level pepper balling everyone - perps, civilians, even my own teammates when they piss me off. ^_^
Quote from: Valmy on June 01, 2011, 08:43:43 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 01, 2011, 01:21:20 AM
Why does the only possible alternative seem to be "engaging in protected speech" or "being slammed and knocked to the ground by the police"? Why is there no option: "Politely asking them to leave"? :hmm:
They kinda provoked the cops into this. Granted the cops probably should have shown some restraint but there we go.
I always try to explain to people that cops don't lock people up, people get themselves locked up. But people don't listen when I tell them that. There's sort of a theme there.
Quote from: Valmy on June 01, 2011, 04:02:04 PM
Quote from: dps on June 01, 2011, 04:00:03 PM
So you're saying that it's essentially just masochism?
No I am saying one group is very dangerous and the other is annoying but harmless.
I'm not clear exactly what those WTO protesters actually want, besides causing mayhem. I don't even see what's wrong with all that globalization.
QuoteProtesters plan more dancing despite cops' orders
By Luke Broadwater
5:20 PM EDT, June 1, 2011
They were arrested, slammed to the ground and choked last weekend. But protesters opposed to a federal judge's ruling that bans dancing inside the Thomas Jefferson Memorial in D.C. aren't backing down.
Led by Russia Today host Adam Kokesh (an Iraq war vet), the protesters plan a larger silent dance party for noon this Saturday at the memorial.
Kokesh's movement found support from a majority of this blog's readers on Monday in an unscientific poll, in which voters 2-1 said the police were wrong to arrest the protesters.
Kokesh also found support from Fox Business News' host Judge Andrew Napolitano, who described the arrests as "a scene out of 'Footloose meets the Gestapo.'"
"It looks like they're choking you to death here," Napolitano told Kokesh. "It's clear the Supreme Court has ruled that dancing is a nonviolent means of expression."
Clearly opposed to the judge's ruling, Kokesh also turned his criticism on the police officers involved.
"We were physically assaulted by some men in some blue costumes and put in a cage for a couple hours," he said. "We are not going to stand for this."
He continued: "Are you surprised that the police don't like freedom?" Kokesh added that the two main jobs of the police are to "raise revenue for the government and control the population."
He said anyone who wants to "stick it to the man" should join him at the Jefferson Memorial on Saturday.
I don't know what's more ridiculous: The judge's ruling, the bad silent dancing, the rough police tactics or the fact that it's all going to be repeated again on Saturday.
My take is this: If the protesters are having a loud dance party that prevents other people from enjoying the memorial, they should be asked to leave. If they're just silently swaying back and forth, let them stay. If the silent dancing isn't hurting anyone, it's no reason to rough someone up.
See? My hypothesis that people get themselves arrested is a valid scientific fact.
Quotesome men in some blue costumes
:huh::lmfao:
Quote"a scene out of 'Footloose meets the Gestapo.'"
Sounds like a good movie.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on June 02, 2011, 04:59:12 AM
Kokesh also found support from Fox Business News' host Judge Andrew Napolitano, who described the arrests as "a scene out of 'Footloose meets the Gestapo.'"
Nice line if nothing else. :D
Quote from: Valmy on June 01, 2011, 10:03:09 AM
Granted it might be a little ridiculous there exists a law against flashmobs inside the Jefferson Memorial but that is not the fault of the Police.
There isn't. There is a law that says any demonstration in a DC public park has to get a permit. Standard, garden-variety time, place and manner regulation for the use of public space.
Unfortunately I was there and saw the fruitcakes today. The guy participating and filming with his iPad was really special...I left when the police started streaming in.
Also, the dancing sucked! :yuk:
http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/DC-Another-Flashmob-Getting-Footloose-at-Jefferson-Memorial-123158063.html
QuoteLast week, five men got cuffed at the Jefferson Memorial for doing a silent dance at the Jefferson Memorial.
The men said they were exercising their rights as citizens to free speech. The Park Police said they were breaking a law recently reaffirmed in court.
This weekend, the dancers are back. And they've brought a posse.
The five original arrestees, whose dance moves earned them arrests and a few body checks, have put out a national call for dancers to come to a "Party at TJ's." Backed by civil liberty group CODEPINK, they've worked to get the word out for more people to join in another session of expressive dancing.
NBC Washington's Tom Sherwood said protesters have been arriving at the Memorial from across the country. One person told NBC he had traveled all the way from California to attend the event.
Park Police also arrived in force on Saturday morning, in anticipation of the dance-off. Tom Sherwood said most of the law enforcement was keeping a low profile, except for one officer, who stood watch carrying an assault rifle.
The dance party drew hundreds of spectators and dozens of dancers.
Police asked the gathered crowd to clear the rotunda shortly after 12 p.m, but around 20 remained, including a man wearing an oversized Thomas Jefferson head. Those who stayed inside the memorial boogied in front of Thomas Jefferson's statue, as the crowd chanted "TJ, TJ."
Quote from: garbon on June 04, 2011, 12:11:06 PM
Also, the dancing sucked! :yuk:
You expected different?
Was Techno Viking there?
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 04, 2011, 12:27:06 PM
Quote from: garbon on June 04, 2011, 12:11:06 PM
Also, the dancing sucked! :yuk:
You expected different?
I'd be willing to support the right to dance wherever as long as the dancers are competent.
I can do a mean robot.