Nullifcation! Mew!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/8468981/France-threatens-to-suspend-Schengen-Treaty.html
QuoteFrance threatens to 'suspend' Schengen Treaty
France has threatened to abandon European Union freedom of movement by "suspending" Europe's Schengen Treaty due to an influx of Tunisian and Libyan migrants from Italy.
By Bruno Waterfield, Brussels 6:41PM BST 22 Apr 2011
Follow Bruno Waterfield on Twitter
Italy has given up to 26,000 illegal migrants six-month residence permits, allowing them to travel freely in the border-free Schengen zone, which covers all EU countries except Britain and Ireland.
The decision to issue travel documents to the Tunisians and other Arab migrants has triggered a French warning over the 1995 treaty.
''It seems to us that we need to think about a mechanism that would allow us, when there is a systematic disruption at one of the EU's external borders, to intervene with a temporary suspension for as long as the disruption lasts," said an Elysée source.
Under the Schengen agreement, citizens in 25 EU nations are allowed to travel across borders without having their passports checked. Both Britain and Ireland chose not to join.
Germany has also threatened to reinstate border checks "against the interests" of the EU's free movement zone in the row with Italy over the residency permits.
The Italian authorities have insisted other European countries must help take the burden of refugees landing on the island of Lampedusa, off Tunisia.
Last weekend, French authorities, citing risks of disturbances to public order, refused to allow trains carrying the migrants to cross its border with Italy at Ventimiglia.
The border reopened to rail traffic within 24 hours but only after Rome lodged a formal diplomatic protest withParis.
If we want to keep free movement within the EU we sure will need minefields and machineguns and the will to use them. We can't let outsiders in.
I thought the established dogma was that we needed another 50 million of these lotto wins before 2050?
If they are such wonderful assets, why work so hard to keep them out?
QuoteBoth Britain and Ireland chose not to join.
And good for them. Shame it wasn't about joining the EU as a whole.
I wonder if this has anything to do with Romania becoming part of the Schengen area this year.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 23, 2011, 11:06:28 AM
I wonder if this has anything to do with Romania becoming part of the Schengen area this year.
It does. Indirectly.
But mostly it has to do with attempting to avoid the FN beating Sarkozy. To achieve that goal, Sarkozy must be Tough On, Well, Stuff.
Quote from: Norgy on April 23, 2011, 11:50:56 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 23, 2011, 11:06:28 AM
I wonder if this has anything to do with Romania becoming part of the Schengen area this year.
It does. Indirectly.
But mostly it has to do with attempting to avoid the FN beating Sarkozy. To achieve that goal, Sarkozy must be Tough On, Well, Stuff.
:thumbsup:
Classic Sarkozy. I doubt it will work this time. Times they are a-changing.
Quote from: Norgy on April 23, 2011, 11:50:56 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 23, 2011, 11:06:28 AM
I wonder if this has anything to do with Romania becoming part of the Schengen area this year.
It does. Indirectly.
But mostly it has to do with attempting to avoid the FN beating Sarkozy. To achieve that goal, Sarkozy must be Tough On, Well, Stuff.
I read that the little guy is fairly unpopular right now in France. His poll numbers were in the 20's.
Yeesh, the Eu seems to be unraveling.
As far as I've gathered, the most likely two candidates for the presidency are no longer a left and right candidate, but a right-winger against a fascist in a dress.
The National Front has removed itself somewhat from its old self and is eating away at the traditional base of the Sarkozy/De Gaulle/Chirac party, which is rural France.
I have no idea what the socialists have done to make themselves a fifth wheel on the ballot wagon, but there you go.
The FN has appeal with their style of homegrown xenophobia and conservatism, since it is easier to forgive oneself when voting for a woman. That should be a cue for all right-wing extremists - nominate a woman, and get votes.
Quote from: chipwich on April 23, 2011, 12:03:53 PM
Yeesh, the Eu seems to be unraveling.
I don't think anyone would want to undo the Eurozone. That would really destroy the economies of Europe, and possibly the world.
Quote from: Norgy on April 23, 2011, 12:05:00 PM
That should be a cue for all right-wing extremists - nominate a woman, and get votes.
Hey, it almost worked in the US... :hmm:
Quote from: Norgy on April 23, 2011, 12:05:00 PM
I have no idea what the socialists have done to make themselves a fifth wheel on the ballot wagon, but there you go.
They've not chosen a candidate yet. Most of the major candidates - Kahn and the like - are polling ahead of Sarko and Le Pen I believe. Which would be Sarko's ultimate humiliation.
Doesn't this treaty make any country's borders as secure as the weakest link? Once illegal immigrants make it into a revolving door country, they're free to go to any other country that signed the treaty.
Quote from: DGuller on April 23, 2011, 01:39:34 PM
Doesn't this treaty make any country's borders as secure as the weakest link? Once illegal immigrants make it into a revolving door country, they're free to go to any other country that signed the treaty.
Yes but in theory there are meant to be common border standards, which are a precondition for joining Schengen.
Quote from: Warspite on April 23, 2011, 02:24:21 PM
Quote from: DGuller on April 23, 2011, 01:39:34 PM
Doesn't this treaty make any country's borders as secure as the weakest link? Once illegal immigrants make it into a revolving door country, they're free to go to any other country that signed the treaty.
Yes but in theory there are meant to be common border standards, which are a precondition for joining Schengen.
And the standards aren't rocket science either. It's a simple albedo test.
Mr. Berlusconi, build up this wall!
Quote from: Norgy on April 23, 2011, 12:05:00 PM
As far as I've gathered, the most likely two candidates for the presidency are no longer a left and right candidate, but a right-winger against a fascist in a dress.
The National Front has removed itself somewhat from its old self and is eating away at the traditional base of the Sarkozy/De Gaulle/Chirac party, which is rural France.
I have no idea what the socialists have done to make themselves a fifth wheel on the ballot wagon, but there you go.
The FN has appeal with their style of homegrown xenophobia and conservatism, since it is easier to forgive oneself when voting for a woman. That should be a cue for all right-wing extremists - nominate a woman, and get votes.
I thought Kahn has a pretty good chance.
I have been reading: Fear-mongering leftist media. :Embarrass:
Quote from: Martinus on April 23, 2011, 02:48:46 PM
Quote from: Norgy on April 23, 2011, 12:05:00 PM
As far as I've gathered, the most likely two candidates for the presidency are no longer a left and right candidate, but a right-winger against a fascist in a dress.
The National Front has removed itself somewhat from its old self and is eating away at the traditional base of the Sarkozy/De Gaulle/Chirac party, which is rural France.
I have no idea what the socialists have done to make themselves a fifth wheel on the ballot wagon, but there you go.
The FN has appeal with their style of homegrown xenophobia and conservatism, since it is easier to forgive oneself when voting for a woman. That should be a cue for all right-wing extremists - nominate a woman, and get votes.
I thought Kahn has a pretty good chance.
Not a real person. :rolleyes:
His last name is Strauss Khan folks.
A JEW! CDM! A JEW IS POLLING AHEAD!!!
And right after him comes Hitler-lite in a skirt :blush:
"Folks" doesn't really sound like a Jewish name.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sO_QntXc-c4
Schengen is a huge help for businesses--visa issues are a pain for businesspeople with less recognized passports. A member of a multinational from Mexico that needs to visit five offices on a european trip would need five visas, which is ridiculously time consuming.
Quote from: alfred russel on April 23, 2011, 05:42:29 PM
Schengen is a huge help for businesses--visa issues are a pain for businesspeople with less recognized passports. A member of a multinational from Mexico that needs to visit five offices on a european trip would need five visas, which is ridiculously time consuming.
I dont think non-EU nationals were the chief reason for setting up the system though.
Quote from: Martinus on April 23, 2011, 06:10:23 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on April 23, 2011, 05:42:29 PM
Schengen is a huge help for businesses--visa issues are a pain for businesspeople with less recognized passports. A member of a multinational from Mexico that needs to visit five offices on a european trip would need five visas, which is ridiculously time consuming.
I dont think non-EU nationals were the chief reason for setting up the system though.
Of course it is silly and time consuming for each internal border of the EU to be controlled as well.
Maybe the EU should've made two Schengens. Suit Schengen, where gainfully employed people in clothes costing €80 or more per item were registered and allowed to go wherever they wanted, and Summer Camp Schengen, where the less gainfully employed street vendors, trampoline artists, pickpockets and pan flute players were sent off to the salt mines? :hmm:
I don't think it's even operatively feasible to suspend Schengen. If you cross the border between many European countries you'll see that the old border posts have been dismantled.
It's probably not difficult to rebuild them.
Quote from: Norgy on April 24, 2011, 03:46:52 AM
Maybe the EU should've made two Schengens. Suit Schengen, where gainfully employed people in clothes costing €80 or more per item were registered and allowed to go wherever they wanted, and Summer Camp Schengen, where the less gainfully employed street vendors, trampoline artists, pickpockets and pan flute players were sent off to the salt mines? :hmm:
Before you know we'll be up to our balls in jugglers <_<
Non-suit Schengen's useful too. Apparently the need to get another visa is why Britain's off the Chinese tourism boom :(
Quote from: Razgovory on April 24, 2011, 06:06:34 AM
It's probably not difficult to rebuild them.
Especially not if those beellions of Libyans and Ayrabs are put to work on them. :scots:
Quote from: Norgy on April 24, 2011, 09:25:04 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 24, 2011, 06:06:34 AM
It's probably not difficult to rebuild them.
Especially not if those beellions of Libyans and Ayrabs are put to work on them. :scots:
:lol:
Quote from: Razgovory on April 24, 2011, 06:06:34 AM
It's probably not difficult to rebuild them.
Right now there are a generation of schengen area europeans that are in their early 30s and have not known border control inside the area during their adult lives. There would be a huge backlash from such people (and older people who have grown used to freedom of movement) if they suddenly needed a passport they may not have to travel across a nearby border. It would also make travel across borders a lot slower and a lot more annoying--be it for planes, trains, or automobiles.
It's starting to look like we are going to do a reenactment of the 1930s, with the role of Germany being played by France.
Quote from: alfred russel on April 23, 2011, 05:42:29 PM
Schengen is a huge help for businesses--visa issues are a pain for businesspeople with less recognized passports. A member of a multinational from Mexico that needs to visit five offices on a european trip would need five visas, which is ridiculously time consuming.
Also are you sure this is Schengen-related and not freedom of movement related?
Quote from: Tamas on April 24, 2011, 05:02:05 PM
It's starting to look like we are going to do a reenactment of the 1930s, with the role of Germany being played by France.
I need to get in on the ground floor of this money making opportunity.
From my experience, unless you are traveling by car/bus, the existence of Schengen is not that material - you go through ID/passport check at the airport or railway station anyway, so there is not much of a difference (at least from what I can tell based on my travels to the UK and Schengen countries).
Quote from: Martinus on April 24, 2011, 05:19:00 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on April 23, 2011, 05:42:29 PM
Schengen is a huge help for businesses--visa issues are a pain for businesspeople with less recognized passports. A member of a multinational from Mexico that needs to visit five offices on a european trip would need five visas, which is ridiculously time consuming.
Also are you sure this is Schengen-related and not freedom of movement related?
I don't understand the distinction.
The former is an optional treaty within the EU which deals with lack of border checks. The latter is one of the basic four freedoms of the EU Treaty which has to be observed by all EU members and allows people to move freely without visas, passports and immigration restrictions (subject to rare exceptions).
Quote from: Martinus on April 24, 2011, 05:43:54 PM
From my experience, unless you are traveling by car/bus, the existence of Schengen is not that material - you go through ID/passport check at the airport or railway station anyway, so there is not much of a difference (at least from what I can tell based on my travels to the UK and Schengen countries).
I disagree--I've never crossed a controlled boundary in a train, bus, or car, but it is an additional pain by air. It takes longer to board because the airline has to check to make sure its passengers have their paperwork in order, then you have to stand in line to get your exit stamp, then after landing you have to stand in line to get your entry stamp, then you have to clear customs. The airlines usually say to get to the airport an extra half hour early for international flights, and it is always a lottery for how long it will take after you land (it can get ugly, especially in the US).
Then there are the other stressors: such as immigration forms you need to fill out that ask questions you don't know the answers to (the address of the hotel I'm staying, for instance--a car was just going to meet me), immigration forms that are in another language, you don't have a pen and have to ask around to borrow one on a flight filled with foreign speakers, or finally getting to the counter and realizing you filled out the wrong forms/the right forms but filled out incorrectly/forgot the forms on the plane/have the right form and know how to fill it out but never found a pen to borrow.
Quote from: Martinus on April 24, 2011, 06:11:45 PM
The former is an optional treaty within the EU which deals with lack of border checks. The latter is one of the basic four freedoms of the EU Treaty which has to be observed by all EU members and allows people to move freely without visas, passports and immigration restrictions (subject to rare exceptions).
All I know is that the less attractive passport holders who travel internationally consider what they call a Schengen Visa to be the golden ticket to europe. I assumed that if Schengen unraveled so would those visas. But I don't know.
Yeah, even arriving to the UK via plane was longer than, say, France, let alone Turkey and their money-grabbing visa scheme.
And it is absolutely wonderful on land.
Especially for east euros. :) I was a kid when crossing the border meant a collision course with a lot of regulations and rules, and a border guard for whom the chief agenda was keeping people in, and "contraband" like decent merchandise out.
That gives you some anxiety even a decade or two later when lining up at the gates. So it's great to just drive past the empty booths. Reminds you of what bigger unity gave us, and what populist assholes like Sarkozy can cost us.
:lol:
You're missing the bigger picture.
As a multiculturalist fucktard you will desperately want Sarkozy in charge. He's all bark when it comes to these issues.
Quote from: alfred russel on April 24, 2011, 06:13:38 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 24, 2011, 05:43:54 PM
From my experience, unless you are traveling by car/bus, the existence of Schengen is not that material - you go through ID/passport check at the airport or railway station anyway, so there is not much of a difference (at least from what I can tell based on my travels to the UK and Schengen countries).
I disagree--I've never crossed a controlled boundary in a train, bus, or car, but it is an additional pain by air. It takes longer to board because the airline has to check to make sure its passengers have their paperwork in order, then you have to stand in line to get your exit stamp, then after landing you have to stand in line to get your entry stamp, then you have to clear customs. The airlines usually say to get to the airport an extra half hour early for international flights, and it is always a lottery for how long it will take after you land (it can get ugly, especially in the US).
Then there are the other stressors: such as immigration forms you need to fill out that ask questions you don't know the answers to (the address of the hotel I'm staying, for instance--a car was just going to meet me), immigration forms that are in another language, you don't have a pen and have to ask around to borrow one on a flight filled with foreign speakers, or finally getting to the counter and realizing you filled out the wrong forms/the right forms but filled out incorrectly/forgot the forms on the plane/have the right form and know how to fill it out but never found a pen to borrow.
Ok I suppose for someone traveling out of the EU it's a pain, but as I said, there is no difference for a EU citizen - whether I travelled to Spain (which is in Schengen) or the UK (which is not), the procedure was pretty much similar - just show an ID to an official at the airport and I'm through (in one case it was the airport official, in the other it was a border officer, though).
Quote from: Martinus on April 25, 2011, 02:46:45 AM
Ok I suppose for someone traveling out of the EU it's a pain, but as I said, there is no difference for a EU citizen - whether I travelled to Spain (which is in Schengen) or the UK (which is not), the procedure was pretty much similar - just show an ID to an official at the airport and I'm through (in one case it was the airport official, in the other it was a border officer, though).
I'm not sure why there would be a difference. As a US passport holder, basically all I need to do now is show ID (a passport). But the airline still needs to pre clear us (until they see my passport they don't know if I'm from the US or Nigeria, or if I even have a passport/any ID), I still need to go through the stamp lines, and I still need to go through customs. How would things be different, other than possibly allowing EU citizens to use more types of ID (I'm really not sure)?
Quote from: Martinus on April 24, 2011, 05:19:00 PM
Also are you sure this is Schengen-related and not freedom of movement related?
Non-EU citizens only need one visa to travel through all Schengen countries. Regardless of free movement they'll still need to follow other countries visa rules, so they'll need one for the UK (or Poland?) if those countries don't have a visa waiver in place. It doesn't make a difference for EU citizens or ones from countries with visa waivers, like the US, but it saves a lot of time for that Mexican businessman (or Chinese tourist) to only need to get one visa form not five or what have you.
Quote from: Martinus on April 24, 2011, 05:19:00 PM
Also are you sure this is Schengen-related and not freedom of movement related?
Freedom of movement is much more than a Schengen visa. The latter just allows foreigners to visit several European countries with one visa for a limited period of time. The former allows European citizens to settle and work wherever they want in the EU indefinitely. There is also the difference that the first is a right of European citizens, whereas the latter is a privilege extended to foreigners at discretion of the various states.
So what Alfred refers to is indeed the Schengen visa and has nothing to do at all with Freedom of Movement.
Quote from: Norgy on April 23, 2011, 12:05:00 PM
I have no idea what the socialists have done to make themselves a fifth wheel on the ballot wagon, but there you go.
No idea? Really?? :lol:
AFAIK, what they're touting is a temporary suspension of Schengen, which is a mechanism already contemplated in the treaty for special events or somesuch.
Quote from: The Larch on April 25, 2011, 11:39:14 AM
AFAIK, what they're touting is a temporary suspension of Schengen, which is a mechanism already contemplated in the treaty for special events or somesuch.
Yeah but in fact they are saying that if there is a big humanitarian crisis on the outer border of the EU (or just in a member state in general), lets just abandon the affected members, and have everyone turtle up independently
That's fuckin' defeats the whole purpose of the whole thing.
Quote from: Tamas on April 25, 2011, 11:59:24 AM
Quote from: The Larch on April 25, 2011, 11:39:14 AM
AFAIK, what they're touting is a temporary suspension of Schengen, which is a mechanism already contemplated in the treaty for special events or somesuch.
Yeah but in fact they are saying that if there is a big humanitarian crisis on the outer border of the EU (or just in a member state in general), lets just abandon the affected members, and have everyone turtle up independently
That's fuckin' defeats the whole purpose of the whole thing.
Well, it's not as if they'll do anything for real besides posing. Sarko just wants to look Tough on Stuff.
Quote from: The Larch on April 25, 2011, 12:09:40 PM
Quote from: Tamas on April 25, 2011, 11:59:24 AM
Quote from: The Larch on April 25, 2011, 11:39:14 AM
AFAIK, what they're touting is a temporary suspension of Schengen, which is a mechanism already contemplated in the treaty for special events or somesuch.
Yeah but in fact they are saying that if there is a big humanitarian crisis on the outer border of the EU (or just in a member state in general), lets just abandon the affected members, and have everyone turtle up independently
That's fuckin' defeats the whole purpose of the whole thing.
Well, it's not as if they'll do anything for real besides posing. Sarko just wants to look Tough on Stuff.
Sure. It's just that lately I have grown tired of the "let them talk shit they won't do it" attitude. It doesn't work and it's dangerous.
Quote from: derspiess on April 25, 2011, 10:52:51 AM
No idea? Really?? :lol:
No, not really, if it was Female Hitler vs Ridiculous Little Man. Seems like it isn't. :)
Quote from: Tamas on April 25, 2011, 12:38:09 PM
Quote from: The Larch on April 25, 2011, 12:09:40 PM
Quote from: Tamas on April 25, 2011, 11:59:24 AM
Quote from: The Larch on April 25, 2011, 11:39:14 AM
AFAIK, what they're touting is a temporary suspension of Schengen, which is a mechanism already contemplated in the treaty for special events or somesuch.
Yeah but in fact they are saying that if there is a big humanitarian crisis on the outer border of the EU (or just in a member state in general), lets just abandon the affected members, and have everyone turtle up independently
That's fuckin' defeats the whole purpose of the whole thing.
Well, it's not as if they'll do anything for real besides posing. Sarko just wants to look Tough on Stuff.
Sure. It's just that lately I have grown tired of the "let them talk shit they won't do it" attitude. It doesn't work and it's dangerous.
I'd be more worried the day politicians actually start doing what they promise since 90% of it is usually election pork. :D