Since my old thread died, I thought I start a new one.
So where do you think this will all end up ?
Bloody carnage in Iran or maybe even Saudi Arabia and how might the 'International Community' respond ?
Yemen seems on the edge of a widespread civil war, Syria may be about to experience a serious government crackdown or the regime undertakes an unlikely and astonishing self-reform.
Meanwhile Jordan has deaths and clashes between demonstrators and govt. supporters and in Bahrain the security forces are 'disappearing' people in the the dead of night.
Lord knows.
I can't believe that Algeria and Morocco are at the end of their revolts. I heard in the office, from a client in Dubai, that the UAE (the UAE!) were getting a bit antsy about possible demonstrations today so had masses of police and helicopters out. Also a guy at work who was recently in Saudi said it was interesting as all the Saudis he met were very enthusiastic about Egypt, Libya and even Bahrain. He asked 'what about Saudi?' and they clammed up and said they like their king, he's a good king, a nice king.
I don't know that Yemen's going to fall into civil war. From what I've read Saleh and the army are negotiating a way out under Saudi guidance - but there've been clashes. Bahrain's revealed the reality of the GCC, I think.
It's hard not to be pretty awed and inspired by it all though.
Quote from: Sheilbh on March 25, 2011, 08:14:46 PM
Lord knows.
I can't believe that Algeria and Morocco are at the end of their revolts.
Haven't really heard anything about Algeria or Morocco.
AL KEYADA takeover of the GCC, Egypt, and Turkey.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 25, 2011, 08:16:57 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on March 25, 2011, 08:14:46 PM
Lord knows.
I can't believe that Algeria and Morocco are at the end of their revolts.
Haven't really heard anything about Algeria or Morocco.
Algeria's been on-off since Tunisia. Apparently they're going to end the state of emergency 'soon'. So far it lacks the cohesion of a daily protests.
Morocco's been like Jordan, but I believe around 50 000 turned out in Casablanca, Rabat and Fes over the weekend.
Quote from: Sheilbh on March 25, 2011, 08:14:46 PM
.....
It's hard not to be pretty awed and inspired by it all though.
Yes, I think William Hague was on the money when he described this as the most important event of the early 21st cenury, in this recent speech.
Full blown pluralistic democracy is not on the cards. the best that can be hoped for is something in the Kemalist tradition and if not, various Islamoid weirdbeards.
Hopefully Morocco and Jordan can placate them with reforms or Constitutional Monarchy. Neither are IIRC as oppressive as some of the others, and it would be nice for the pro-American monarchs to be secure.
Quote from: Legbiter on March 25, 2011, 08:29:21 PM
Full blown pluralistic democracy is not on the cards. the best that can be hoped for is something in the Kemalist tradition and if not, various Islamoid weirdbeards.
I wouldn't be so sure that things are so simple. And, I think, that to some extent within the Middle East Islam is the answer.
QuoteYes, I think William Hague was on the money when he described this as the most important event of the early 21st cenury, in this recent speech.
I think it could be. I think it's important of itself. I think it is also something of a rebuke to the 'Beijing consensus' and suggests to me that the demand for dignity can't be economically wished away. But I feel this is a true revolutionary moment. There are counter-revolutionaries and things could be rolled back.. At the same time I think there's potential for 'permanent' revolutionary states of escalating extremism. There could be a social and political reordering of the Middle East or there could be so much reshuffling.
All these revolts and protests are really interesting. Per country, who knows what they'll wind up with. But it does seem that they're protesting what they have for governance, and there doesn't seem to be too much of it that's anti-West; no slogans, flag burnings, etc. They say "democracy, freedom", which I could assume to also mean more of their religious views in place. But we also see some saying, as in Egypt, that they don't want something like Iran's Theocracy. And the movements seem to be more secular, or at least not a protest for more religious control. The religious extremists, or just the more conservative religious types may gain power in some cases, but it just doesn't seem like religious fervor is driving these revolts.
I have to say, too frigging bad to the various leaders, dictators, etc. While they've been fighting the West, Israel and modernity, partly as a way to find common enemies., their people were apparently moving in other directions, having had enough of the daily life they're subjected to under these tyrannical regimes. I feel like the people have seen through the veneer of their leaders and finally have had enough, risking a lot in some cases to have their say.
Things are looking up. I really thought Libya was fucked for a week or so back there, I just didn't see the UN managing to work on a decent time scale and air support being sent in. Now its been done...well it'll take a while but I'm fairly confident the rebels will win out somehow. At the least they won't be grinded into the dust and the country returned to business as usual.
That things have taken a turn for the better in Libya seems to have served as some encouragment for people elsewhere.
Yemen in particular is seeming potentially dodgy. Isn't it already in the middle of a civil war and having trouble with al-quaida and pirates and all sorts? I've no clue what's going to happen there. But I doubt it'll be tidy...
Syria kicking off was unexpected, it seemed pretty tight, though I'm glad, its the one Arab nation I'd really like to see go under.
I just hope some monarchs see the writing on the wall and start reforming. It woiuld be sad for the entire region to turn republican.
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on March 25, 2011, 08:31:27 PM
Hopefully Morocco and Jordan can placate them with reforms or Constitutional Monarchy. Neither are IIRC as oppressive as some of the others, and it would be nice for the pro-American monarchs to be secure.
I'd happily see the House of Saud fearing the people at their gates.
I think that Jordan and Morocco are a little more free and, as monarchies, enjoy a little more legitimacy. The problem there, I think, is one of corruption and indulgence. In Morocco there's a specific word for the shadow state of extremely wealthy, very influential courtiers and in Jordan the Queen celebrated her 40th birthday with a multi-million party in Wadi Rum, which reeks a little of celebrating Persepolis's birthday, it was so over the top that tribal leaders basically said (openly) that the King should rein her in and that she was getting a bit like Imelda.
But I think they've got a better chance of surviving so long as they bend with the wind, as monarchies must.
Yeah, I hope Jordan and Morrocco can weather this storm, make some changes for the people and better, more democratic government. Those are among the least authoritarian regimes. And places like Qatar, UAE. Going back a few years ago Qatar was on the way to a more democratic government already, as I recall. Unless something has changed. UAE is already pretty open, and a decently governed nation, isn't it? Small nations, not major players though.
Destiny of all monarchs:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fjspivey.wikispaces.com%2Ffile%2Fview%2Fbeheading500.jpg%2F105700125%2Fbeheading500.jpg&hash=81f21940db93b59301b479c1fe494894c8afc983)
:frog:
The philosophical question here is, of course, should we care for universal values at the expense of our well beign? And on "we" I mean people in the first world (well, or the margins of it, like me and Mart)
Example: Saud Arabia has a despicable governance. But are we ready to see our currently VERY fragile economy panic and crumble as the mob takes that country over? Same goes for the Gulf States.
Are we ready and willing to pay the price of arab democracies? Which will be constant unpredictability in the flow of spi... oil, rampant anti-semite populism, and a huge flood of immigrants?
I hate to be a pedantic dick about this, but no Persian is Arab.
Quote from: Scipio on March 26, 2011, 07:24:29 AM
I hate to be a pedantic dick about this, but no Persian is Arab.
What about one who's father is Arab?
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on March 26, 2011, 07:53:27 AM
Quote from: Scipio on March 26, 2011, 07:24:29 AM
I hate to be a pedantic dick about this, but no Persian is Arab.
What about one who's father is Arab?
Neither fish nor fowl. All cop.
Quote from: Tamas on March 26, 2011, 06:41:12 AM
The philosophical question here is, of course, should we care for universal values at the expense of our well beign? And on "we" I mean people in the first world (well, or the margins of it, like me and Mart)
Example: Saud Arabia has a despicable governance. But are we ready to see our currently VERY fragile economy panic and crumble as the mob takes that country over? Same goes for the Gulf States.
Are we ready and willing to pay the price of arab democracies? Which will be constant unpredictability in the flow of spi... oil, rampant anti-semite populism, and a huge flood of immigrants?
You're talking as if we can push a button and make the protests go away. Short of flying the 82nd Airborne into Bahrein I don't see how we have much, if any, control over the situation.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 26, 2011, 01:23:01 PM
Quote from: Tamas on March 26, 2011, 06:41:12 AM
The philosophical question here is, of course, should we care for universal values at the expense of our well beign? And on "we" I mean people in the first world (well, or the margins of it, like me and Mart)
Example: Saud Arabia has a despicable governance. But are we ready to see our currently VERY fragile economy panic and crumble as the mob takes that country over? Same goes for the Gulf States.
Are we ready and willing to pay the price of arab democracies? Which will be constant unpredictability in the flow of spi... oil, rampant anti-semite populism, and a huge flood of immigrants?
You're talking as if we can push a button and make the protests go away. Short of flying the 82nd Airborne into Bahrein I don't see how we have much, if any, control over the situation.
Well what I am saying is that perhaps the Western public's take on this is mistaken, these unrealistic expectations on a better world rising up from this event (which is possible I think, but far from being the most probable outcome) are fueled by the media, and since we do live in democracies, public opinion on a matter can push governments to take actions which are counterproductive to their countries' interest.
Like hastily taking the side of the severly underorganized, terrorist-supported underdog in a tribal civil war
What's the chance that all this unrest results in warfare between countries, like an another Saddam Hussein rising up?
Quote from: DGuller on March 26, 2011, 03:32:37 PM
What's the chance that all this unrest results in warfare between countries, like an another Saddam Hussein rising up?
YGIAGAM - ie :shrug:
Quote from: DGuller on March 26, 2011, 03:32:37 PM
What's the chance that all this unrest results in warfare between countries, like an another Saddam Hussein rising up?
Only if the Iranians start dicking around with the Shiites in the Gulf. 0.001% chance.
Quote from: Tamas on March 26, 2011, 01:57:59 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 26, 2011, 01:23:01 PM
Quote from: Tamas on March 26, 2011, 06:41:12 AM
The philosophical question here is, of course, should we care for universal values at the expense of our well beign? And on "we" I mean people in the first world (well, or the margins of it, like me and Mart)
Example: Saud Arabia has a despicable governance. But are we ready to see our currently VERY fragile economy panic and crumble as the mob takes that country over? Same goes for the Gulf States.
Are we ready and willing to pay the price of arab democracies? Which will be constant unpredictability in the flow of spi... oil, rampant anti-semite populism, and a huge flood of immigrants?
You're talking as if we can push a button and make the protests go away. Short of flying the 82nd Airborne into Bahrein I don't see how we have much, if any, control over the situation.
Well what I am saying is that perhaps the Western public's take on this is mistaken, these unrealistic expectations on a better world rising up from this event (which is possible I think, but far from being the most probable outcome) are fueled by the media, and since we do live in democracies, public opinion on a matter can push governments to take actions which are counterproductive to their countries' interest.
Like hastily taking the side of the severly underorganized, terrorist-supported underdog in a tribal civil war
The Fall of the Berlin Wall and the collapse of the USSR was rightly hailed as the opening of a new era of international peace and cooperation.
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on March 26, 2011, 10:31:31 PM
The Fall of the Berlin Wall and the collapse of the USSR was rightly hailed as the opening of a new era of international peace and cooperation.
Apples and oranges.
Great. Now I'm hungry.
Quote from: Tamas on March 27, 2011, 03:01:59 AM
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on March 26, 2011, 10:31:31 PM
The Fall of the Berlin Wall and the collapse of the USSR was rightly hailed as the opening of a new era of international peace and cooperation.
Apples and oranges.
How? Both Eastern Europeans and Arabs have nationalist and religiously retarded tendencies, both have been living under dictatorships, both view the West with a mixture of envy, amazement and "you left us to rot" resentment, both have very little history of actual democracy, as opposed to living under either foreign rule or local tin pot dictator/monarch/tyrant, both have shitty economies but with a big potential.
Now, I share your hope that there are differences so Egypt does not end up a failed state like Hungary, but still the experience is likely to be similar.
Quote from: Tamas on March 27, 2011, 03:01:59 AM
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on March 26, 2011, 10:31:31 PM
The Fall of the Berlin Wall and the collapse of the USSR was rightly hailed as the opening of a new era of international peace and cooperation.
Apples and oranges.
More like Apples and Cabbages.
Quote from: Martinus on March 27, 2011, 03:35:46 AM
Quote from: Tamas on March 27, 2011, 03:01:59 AM
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on March 26, 2011, 10:31:31 PM
The Fall of the Berlin Wall and the collapse of the USSR was rightly hailed as the opening of a new era of international peace and cooperation.
Apples and oranges.
How? Both Eastern Europeans and Arabs have nationalist and religiously retarded tendencies, both have been living under dictatorships, both view the West with a mixture of envy, amazement and "you left us to rot" resentment, both have very little history of actual democracy, as opposed to living under either foreign rule or local tin pot dictator/monarch/tyrant, both have shitty economies but with a big potential.
Now, I share your hope that there are differences so Egypt does not end up a failed state like Hungary, but still the experience is likely to be similar.
East euros had been neighbors of the west for quite a while. In fact, their values come from the same roots. Really, to say that East Euro stance toward Western values is as the same as the muslim stance is trolling of the highest caliber.
Their political and cultural development around the time of WW2, altough lacking compared to the West, were well ahead of the general Arab one of present day.
The problems of commie East Europe was plenty. However, illiteracy and overpopulation was not among them.
There are similarities of course. Most notably that realizing the gap between western standards of living and their own played a big part in triggering the changes.
For the arabs, it was the internets, for us, it was VHS recorders.
:huh:
The most obvious difference is that the Arab autocrats don't have 40 armoured divisions poised to invade West Germany.
Quote from: Tamas on March 27, 2011, 04:59:41 AM
Their political and cultural development around the time of WW2, altough lacking compared to the West, were well ahead of the general Arab one of present day.
I think you are overestimating the cultural gap in that period. Illiteracy in Poland was rampant, just as the cultural level of the peasantry, and there is no reason to assume it was vastly different in other countries of the region.
Quote from: Tamas on March 27, 2011, 04:59:41 AM
Quote from: Martinus on March 27, 2011, 03:35:46 AM
Quote from: Tamas on March 27, 2011, 03:01:59 AM
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on March 26, 2011, 10:31:31 PM
The Fall of the Berlin Wall and the collapse of the USSR was rightly hailed as the opening of a new era of international peace and cooperation.
Apples and oranges.
How? Both Eastern Europeans and Arabs have nationalist and religiously retarded tendencies, both have been living under dictatorships, both view the West with a mixture of envy, amazement and "you left us to rot" resentment, both have very little history of actual democracy, as opposed to living under either foreign rule or local tin pot dictator/monarch/tyrant, both have shitty economies but with a big potential.
Now, I share your hope that there are differences so Egypt does not end up a failed state like Hungary, but still the experience is likely to be similar.
East euros had been neighbors of the west for quite a while. In fact, their values come from the same roots. Really, to say that East Euro stance toward Western values is as the same as the muslim stance is trolling of the highest caliber.
Their political and cultural development around the time of WW2, altough lacking compared to the West, were well ahead of the general Arab one of present day.
The problems of commie East Europe was plenty. However, illiteracy and overpopulation was not among them.
There are similarities of course. Most notably that realizing the gap between western standards of living and their own played a big part in triggering the changes.
For the arabs, it was the internets, for us, it was VHS recorders.
Elephant. It's right there.
While you balkantards have been tainted by the Turks, the reason why you were quicker to seize on the fruits of civilization was of course due to an entirely different ancestry than cultural. :sleep:
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 27, 2011, 12:57:01 PM
:huh:
The most obvious difference is that the Arab autocrats don't have 40 armoured divisions poised to invade West Germany.
More's the pity. The Wall provided a great deal of stability and techno-thrillers that we really haven't had since.
From an al-Jazeera report on demonstration in Sanamin, Syria:
"They are not hungry for bread, they chant "We want our freedom and dignity" "
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2011/03/201132818173548579.html (http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2011/03/201132818173548579.html)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0i9acHS_zQ&feature=player_embedded
For the Angry birds fan who likes revolutions.
Quote from: Ed Anger on March 29, 2011, 12:14:07 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0i9acHS_zQ&feature=player_embedded
For the Angry birds fan who likes revolutions.
:thumbsup: Awesome. Wonder if this would be a good way to get my kid interested in current events.
Quote from: Ed Anger on March 29, 2011, 12:14:07 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0i9acHS_zQ&feature=player_embedded (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0i9acHS_zQ&feature=player_embedded)
For the Angry birds fan who likes revolutions.
:lmfao:
Sublime.
I am out of touch on this angry birds thing.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on March 29, 2011, 01:15:36 PM
I am out of touch on this angry birds thing.
I've stayed away from it with a fierce purpose, but I don't think you need to appreciate that phenomenon in order to appreciate this vid.
Quote from: Ed Anger on March 29, 2011, 12:14:07 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0i9acHS_zQ&feature=player_embedded
For the Angry birds fan who likes revolutions.
:lmfao:
Things seemed to have stalled, Libya is an odd low intensity stalemate, Bahrain appears to be quietly murdering opponents in jail, Al Assad's security forces are holding the line in Syria.
Only in Egypt is there some hope, todays detention of Mubarak and his sons, seems promising, maybe all lawyers aren't so bad after all. :)
They had a big demonstration of women and children blocking some highway in Syria this week.
Quote from: jamesww on April 14, 2011, 12:19:52 PM
Things seemed to have stalled, Libya is an odd low intensity stalemate, Bahrain appears to be quietly murdering opponents in jail, Al Assad's security forces are holding the line in Syria.
Only in Egypt is there some hope, todays detention of Mubarak and his sons, seems promising, maybe all lawyers aren't so bad after all. :)
There's hope all over. I think Egypt and Tunisia got everyone overexcited and expecting the regimes to topple on a monthly basis. This is far from over in terms of transforming the region. The Arab street, as it were, is already entirely different from just three months ago.
Syria's hotter than I expected, but I don't know. Tunisia's still very hopeful, moreso than Egypt I think, they've just abolished the secret police and announced the date of elections for a constitutional convention.
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 14, 2011, 01:18:02 PM
Quote from: jamesww on April 14, 2011, 12:19:52 PM
Things seemed to have stalled, Libya is an odd low intensity stalemate, Bahrain appears to be quietly murdering opponents in jail, Al Assad's security forces are holding the line in Syria.
Only in Egypt is there some hope, todays detention of Mubarak and his sons, seems promising, maybe all lawyers aren't so bad after all. :)
There's hope all over. I think Egypt and Tunisia got everyone overexcited and expecting the regimes to topple on a monthly basis. This is far from over in terms of transforming the region. The Arab street, as it were, is already entirely different from just three months ago.
Syria's hotter than I expected, but I don't know. Tunisia's still very hopeful, moreso than Egypt I think, they've just abolished the secret police and announced the date of elections for a constitutional convention.
Yeah, Syria is hotter and lasting longer than I had expected. I'm worried about Egypt, as the more organized groups like Muslim Brotherhood may have the upper hand. But agreed on that times are a changing in the Arab/Muslim world. Just remains to be seen if Iran or other extreme players will gain or lose after all.
QuoteSyrian president orders release of protesters
By BASSEM MROUE, Associated Press
BEIRUT – Syria's president ordered the release Thursday of hundreds of detainees involved in a month of protests seeking to wrest political freedoms from one of the Middle East's most repressive governments.
The order, announced by state TV, signaled an attempt by President Bashar Assad to calm weeks of growing protest anger and pre-empt what is expected to be another day of large demonstrations on Friday.
Protests erupted in Syria a month ago and have steadily increased, with tens of thousands calling for sweeping political reforms from Assad's authoritarian regime. More than 200 people have been killed during in the government's crackdown, according to Syria's leading pro-democracy group.
The state TV announcement did not say how many protesters would be released or how many authorities were holding. It said the release order did not apply to those involved in "criminal acts" but that most of those taken into custody would be freed.
The country's new prime minister, meanwhile, announced his Cabinet two weeks after Assad fired the previous government in an earlier gesture that failed to contain the unrest.
Violence continued Thursday in a major port city where the government has waged a crackdown on several days of protests.
The state-run SANA news agency reported that snipers fired on a Syrian military patrol in Banias, killing one soldier and wounding another.
Syria's government and its state-run media have sought to cast the unrest as a foreign conspiracy perpetrated by armed gangs targeting security forces and civilians. Reform activists, however, say their movement is peaceful.
The SANA report had few other details about the shooting, and because of severe restrictions on independent journalists it was not possible to verify the information.
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 14, 2011, 01:18:02 PM
Quote from: jamesww on April 14, 2011, 12:19:52 PM
Things seemed to have stalled, Libya is an odd low intensity stalemate, Bahrain appears to be quietly murdering opponents in jail, Al Assad's security forces are holding the line in Syria.
Only in Egypt is there some hope, todays detention of Mubarak and his sons, seems promising, maybe all lawyers aren't so bad after all. :)
There's hope all over. I think Egypt and Tunisia got everyone overexcited and expecting the regimes to topple on a monthly basis. This is far from over in terms of transforming the region. The Arab street, as it were, is already entirely different from just three months ago.
Syria's hotter than I expected, but I don't know. Tunisia's still very hopeful, moreso than Egypt I think, they've just abolished the secret police and announced the date of elections for a constitutional convention.
Oh I agree the 'Arab Street' is different, but I think partially it's different to the old perception of what it might be, in reality we didn't get to see what it actually was because it was so suppressed.
Yemen hasn't yet resolved itself, I'd guess a fair bit more blood will have to be spilled before he goes. And there's an outside chance the country will split north and south, with attendant civil conflict.
Quote from: Tamas on March 27, 2011, 03:01:59 AM
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on March 26, 2011, 10:31:31 PM
The Fall of the Berlin Wall and the collapse of the USSR was rightly hailed as the opening of a new era of international peace and cooperation.
Apples and oranges.
And even that wasn't without it's bloodshed. Yugoslavia, Armenia, Chechnya. We're lucky it was as peaceful as it was. The recent episode with Georgia indicates that it still hasn't shaken out completely.
Great news from Egypt, good to see the NDP has been broken up.
Also will NATO have to deploy ground forces to save Misurata ?
Quote from: jamesww on April 16, 2011, 06:57:09 PM
Great news from Egypt, good to see the NDP has been broken up.
Also will NATO have to deploy ground forces to save Misurata ?
Is Gaddafi in that serious of a trouble?
Quote from: Legbiter on April 16, 2011, 06:59:29 PM
Quote from: jamesww on April 16, 2011, 06:57:09 PM
Great news from Egypt, good to see the NDP has been broken up.
Also will NATO have to deploy ground forces to save Misurata ?
Is Gaddafi in that serious of a trouble?
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F_akLHpeO7qyA%2FTFlLW_dO7sI%2FAAAAAAAAB8A%2FtlwsjCMqNGg%2Fs1600%2FCarSurfing.jpg&hash=bae9f3deb6b308726f2ae34c6dca060abc5a7063)
QuoteEgypt's revolution may save Neolithic treasure
By Patrick Werr
LAKE QARUN, Egypt (Reuters) – Egypt's popular uprising may have arrived just in time to save a Neolithic site that holds the country's oldest evidence of agriculture and could yield vital clues to the rise of Pharaonic civilization.
The site lies in a protected nature reserve along the shore north of Lake Qarun that until recently had remained virtually untouched, even though it lies only 70 km (43.50 miles) from Cairo, Egypt's fast-expanding capital.
A month before the protests that toppled President Hosni Mubarak erupted in January, the Egyptian government carved 2.8 square kilometers of prime land from the reserve and awarded it to property developer Amer Group for a tourist resort.
Since Mubarak was ousted, three government ministers who sat on a committee that approved the sale have been jailed while they battle corruption charges not related to the Amer deal.
One of them, Housing Minister Ahmed el-Maghrabi, told Reuters in January that archaeology officials had given the re-development the necessary green light.
Egypt's archaeology chief now says that was untrue.
"I did not give any permission to anyone. The excavations are not finished," Zahi Hawass, head of the Supreme Council for Antiquities, told Reuters.
Property developers have come under increasing public scrutiny for their land purchases from Mubarak's government, and some firms have relinquished tracts of land.
Egyptian conservation groups have decried the Amer deal, saying it was done without proper oversight and that the arrival of large numbers of holidaymakers would wreak heavy damage to a wide swathe of the delicate desert landscape.
"This is the thin end of the wedge. It is the destruction of Egyptian natural heritage for future generations." said Ali Fahmi, director of the conservation group Friends of Lake Qarun. "It sets a precedent in desecrating a protected area."
WHALE, PRIMATE FOSSILS
Egypt's cabinet in 1989 declared 1,110 square km north of the lake a nature protectorate, an area that also contains unique geology, Pharaonic basalt quarries from the Old Kingdom and fossils of early whales and primates.
Archaeologists say the remains of rain-based Neolithic farming in the reserve may hold vital clues to a technological leap that led to irrigation-based farming along the Nile.
Around 4,000 BC, humans occupying a strip along the northern shore of the lake seized a window of only a few centuries of rainfall to grow grain in previously inhospitable desert, archaeologists say.
"We have the evidence of the earliest agriculture activity in Egypt. So it's before the Pharaohs, it's before the early dynastic period when Egypt becomes a state," said Willeke Wendrich, an archaeology professor at the University of California in Los Angeles.
"What we have on the north shore of Fayoum is something unique worldwide. What we have is a Neolithic landscape which, because it's desert, has not been overbuilt," she said in an interview.
Khaled Saad, department manager for prehistory at Egypt's Supreme Council for Anquities (SCA), said that four years ago the Tourism Ministry decided it wanted to build hotels and tourist attractions on a 20 square km (7.723 sq mile) tract stretching 10 km along the lake's northern shoreline.
It formed a committee to approve designating the land for development that included Prime Minister Ahmed Nazif, Tourism Minister Zoheir Garranah, Maghrabi and other officials, Saad said.
In December, the Tourism Development Authority (TDA), which is under the Tourism Ministry, awarded Amer Group the land under a 99-year concession, charging $28,000 in the first year, rising to an annual $92,000 in the fourth to 10th years.
Maghrabi said in early January that the SCA had brought in archaeologists to survey the area before the project went ahead.
"It has been completely cleared by the department of antiquities. We made sure of that," Maghrabi told Reuters at the time. "This project was approved several years ago but no progress was going to be made until the department of antiquities finished their work. And they did finish their work."
MORE RESEARCH "CRUCIAL"
But Hawass of the antiquities council said the work was still ongoing and he was now demanding a fresh assessment.
"Two weeks ago I asked Khaled Saad to come to me with a report to tell me as an archaeologist what he thinks. And now I asked him that we will appoint a large committee of archaeologists to decide the future of the land," Hawass said.
Saad said the survey mentioned by Maghrabi took place between March 2009 and October 2010 and was designed to see if there were antiquities on the site.
"I proved that there were," he said.
The site holds a wealth of prehistoric remains from mid-Mesolithic period 200,000 years ago to the Pharaonic period and later, said Saad.
They also found the remains of 24 ancient whales that swam in the region's waters 42 million years ago, including one belonging to an entirely new species.
Weindrich said further research in the area is crucial to cast light on the origins of Egyptian civilization.
She said agriculture probably arrived late in Egypt because the technology in use elsewhere in the Near East did not fit with the climate, at least until the short period of rainfall in the Neolithic period.
"We have a big research project going on looking at the climate change in that period," she said.
The Neolithic farming community that appeared around six millennia ago had little material to build with and left no sign of permanent buildings or structures, she said.
"They probably lived in some sort of reed matting huts. But what we do see is a whole pattern on the surface of fireplaces for different purposes -- to make pottery, for the fish, to roast their meat. From that pattern we're trying to understand their activities," Wendrich said.
As the moisture disappeared, the desert winds blew away most of the topsoil. Stone tools, pottery and bones once held in soil a meter deep were now concentrated in a thin surface layer.
"There's a howling wind coming from the north, which means the sand blows away, but the heavy things don't," Wendrich said.
"It's great because we can see it, but it's not so great because if you remove the top centimeter, it's gone forever. That's the precarious situation we're dealing with at the moment."
Shortly after the Neolithic period, irrigation began spreading along the Nile Valley.
"By that time, people were looking at different ways for continuing what they by then they were used to doing for a number of centuries," said Wendrich.
Don't know exactly what's going to happen, but I'm sure that at some point, the French will find some government somewhere in the M.E. to surrender to.
OK, that wasn't fair; the French have kind of taken the lead in Libya, but hey, so what?
Quote
Ultraconservative Muslims dominate Egypt protest
CAIRO (AP) — Tens of thousands of ultraconservative Muslims in long beards, robes and prayer caps thronged Cairo's central Tahrir Square in a massive show of force Friday, calling for the implementation of strict Islamic laws and sparring with liberal activists over their visions for a post-revolution Egypt.
It was the first rally with religious overtones in Egypt, and one of the largest, since the uprising that forced President Hosni Mubarak to step down in mid-February. The strong showing by the Islamists demonstrated their powerful organizational abilities, which will likely help them in parliamentary elections later this year.
"Islamic. Islamic. Not Western or Eastern. No liberal or secular," chants of Salafis, who follow a strict form of Islam, echoed through the square. Others shouted: "With our soul and blood we defend you Islam."
They unfurled an Egyptian flag, removing the central emblem of an eagle and replacing the Islamic slogan: "There is no god but God and Muhammad is his prophet," similar to the insignia on the Saudi flag.
The youth activists who have been at the helm of mass protests calling for faster change from the country's interim military rulers withdrew from the rally soon after Friday prayers, accusing the Islamists of violating an agreement to avoid divisive issues.
"While the civil organizations are trying to respect the effort to complete the revolution by unifying the ranks, the Islamic groups insisted on breaking the unity and assisting the military council in a deal that I think will divide this country in two," said liberal activist Mustafa Shawki. "This is what we were afraid of."
Several hundred protesters, mainly liberal and leftist groups, have camped out at the square for more than three weeks, demanding swifter justice for those blamed in the killing of nearly 900 protesters during the 18-day uprising and more measures to ensure Mubarak loyalists are purged from the government. It was a crowd vocally critical of the military council, which they accused of protecting Mubarak's regime.
Most of the Islamic groups, however, say the military needs time to break with the past.
The decision by the Salafis and the Muslim Brotherhood, Egypt's best organized political force, to participate significantly boosted the turnout. But instead of a day of unity as had been advertised, the Islamists decided to flex their muscle, using the epicenter of the protests to press demands for a strict version of Islamic law.
Some Salafi Islamist groups mobilized their members to the square to oppose the adoption of a set of guidelines for drafting a new constitution after parliamentary elections later this year. Buses from a number of cities transported followers, many who were in the square for the first time.
Liberal parties are worried religious groups will win a large share of parliament and force an Islamic influence on the constitution. The Islamists say nothing should restrict the newly elected parliament's right to oversee the process of drafting the document.
"The liberals are talking about a civil state. This won't work in Egypt," said Tarek Shaheen, a 31-year-old resident of Ismailiya. "We want to prove to the outside world even before domestically that Egypt is Islamic, that it has a large Islamic trend and that we are not terrorists."
While opposing the measure, Muslim Brotherhood members did not press the issue Friday sticking to the agreement.
Salafis are ultraconservatives, close to Saudi Arabia's Wahhabi interpretation of Islam and more radical than the Brotherhood. They seek to emulate the austerity of Islam's early days and oppose a wide range of practices like intermingling of the sexes that they view as "un-Islamic." Many also reject all forms of Western cultural influence, and preach that authorities must be respected.
Mubarak's regime cracked down heavily on Islamic groups, specifically the politicized Brotherhood, arrested thousands of its members. Salafi groups are new to the political scene in Egypt.
Many like Shaheen felt that Egypt's Islamic identity is threatened, reflecting the growing mistrust between the different groups only months before the first parliamentary elections, the first after Mubarak's ouster.
Egypt's constitution, which has been suspended by the military rulers, set Islamic law as the basis for legislation and nobody has proposed changing that clause. But some Islamic groups believe the liberal groups will use the guidelines to introduce what they perceive as Western values.
"Our religion is the constitution," said Saber Mohammed, a 27-year-old Cairene wearing a short white robe and head cap, sporting the traditional bushy beard of a Salafi.
Nourhan Zamzam, a 29-year-old banker who supports the call for a civil state, said the ultraconservative Islamist groups are vying for influence but have little experience.
For her, the Salafi stance only undermines pressure on the military by dividing the efforts of the protesters.
"This is actually a message to us, the revolutionaries, who are critical of the military council," she said. "This is a message to scar us: look infighting between groups is coming."
By sundown, a large number of Islamists began leaving the square peacefully and the sit-in continued.
It was more tense in other cities.
In the southern city of Assiut, Salafist protesters beat up a group of protesters from the Communist party trying to join their demonstration, deputy police chief Yosri el-Gammasi said. At one point, some in the crowd yelled back at a speaker who criticized the idea of constitutional guidelines.
In the Sinai city of el-Arish, government troops clashed with Islamic militants firing rocket-propelled grenades and other heavy weapons outside a police station. Four people were killed, including a military officer and three civilians, and 18 people injured.
South of the capital in Minya province, gunmen fired on a car carrying Christians, killing two and injuring two, a military official said. It was the second killing in two weeks in the predominantly Christian village of Roman. While the motive was unknown, similar events have sparked religious violence in the past.
Officials spoke on condition of anonymity because they weren't authorized to brief the media.
Friday's rally came a day after Egypt's Justice Ministry said Mubarak, along with his two sons, his former security chief and seven others, will be tried Wednesday at a Cairo convention center. Mubarak, 83, faces charges of corruption and ordering the deadly use of force against protesters.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fl.yimg.com%2Fbt%2Fapi%2Fres%2F1.2%2FglhLlNdut9SOutIB72uMEg--%2FYXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9aW5zZXQ7aD02MTI7cT04NTt3PTQ2NQ--%2Fhttp%3A%2F%2Fmedia.zenfs.com%2Fen_us%2FNews%2FReuters%2F2011-07-29T144420Z_01_AMR17_RTRIDSP_3_EGYPT.jpg&hash=17ca5271c039c97e1c5fe510b961c4b27dc34e1c)
Just think of all the tax dollars we're spending so we can get "democratic" governments in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on July 29, 2011, 11:44:46 PM
Just think of all the tax dollars we're spending so we can get "democratic" governments in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya.
Cheap compared to the tax money we've spent trying to spread democracy to the South.
A swing and a miss.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on July 30, 2011, 01:31:42 AM
A swing and a miss.
Yep, going on for almost 150 years now. :(
Quote from: DGuller on July 30, 2011, 02:06:54 AM
Yep, going on for almost 150 years now. :(
:lol:
Opportunistic shots can be much more entertaining than potshots.
I am sorry but this article must be false. I was told this was for sure the rebellion of the secular modern youth.
I'm sure the moderate Muslims will prevail. :)