Irresponsible morons, they keep this shit up and after the state collapses into insolvency they'll have a real junta or dictatorship of some flavor or another on their hands.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36682928/ns/world_news-europe/
QuoteThousands of angry Greeks march against austerity
By Lefteris Papadimas and Ingrid Melander
updated 8:14 a.m. ET May 1, 2010
ATHENS - Angry protesters set fire to garbage cans and two TV outside broadcast vans in Athens as thousands of Greeks marched through the capital on May Day to protest against austerity measures they say only hurt the poor.
At one rally, police fired two or three rounds of tear gas against 20 protesters trying to reach parliament. The protesters retreated and the march, which was otherwise largely peaceful, continued, a Reuters witness said.
Shops were closed, ships stayed docked and the streets of the capital were unusually empty except for protesters marching toward parliament, meters away from the Finance Ministry where EU and IMF officials have been meeting for days to agree a new set of austerity measures.
"No to the IMF's junta!" protesters chanted, referring to the military dictatorship which ruled Greece from 1967 to 1974.
"Hands off our rights! IMF and EU Commission out!," the protesters shouted as they marched to parliament.
A common call among many of those interviewed in the unusually empty streets of Athens was for punishment of those responsible for Greece's biggest crisis in decades, in a country where corruption scandals and tax evasion are widespread.
"We should throw all the crooks into the sea, all the people and politicians who are responsible for this crisis," said 58-year old insurance worker Sotiris Oikonomou.
With initial police estimates at around 17,000 protesters, participation in the march seemed to be around the same level as previous anti-austerity protests. Some were resigned to the fact that the government would move ahead with reforms anyhow.
"I don't expect anything to change with this march. We just fight for our dignity," Oikonomou said.
Greece, whose 240 billion euro economy plunged into recession last year, is preparing more than 20 billion euros ($26.64 billion) in budget cuts over the next two years to secure access to an EU/IMF aid package of up to 120 billion.
"SOCIAL BATTLE?"
The aid package is aimed at pulling Greece out of a severe debt crisis, which has hit the euro and shaken markets worldwide, and avoid contagion to other euro zone countries.
Euro zone finance ministers are due to discuss the deal on Sunday. French Economy Minister Christine Lagarde said she expected agreement could be reached by the end of Sunday.
Analysts say social protests may increase after the summer once the impact of the austerity measures kicks in, and investors are worried this may hamper reforms.
Rating agencies have warned they could cut the country's rating further if the government lost public support.
The government has already agreed three sets of austerity measures including tax hikes and pension freeze over the last six months, and many fear the EU/IMF plan will hurt their livelihood further, in a country where one in five lives below the poverty threshold, according to EU data.
"We will not permit the destruction of our rights, we will block their plans," said public sector umbrella union ADEDY. "It's time for our biggest social battle."
Union officials said Greece is asked to slash its deficit by 10 percent of GDP in 2010-2011 by raising VAT tax, scrapping public sector bonuses amounting to two extra months pay, and freezing civil servants' wages in exchange of getting the aid.
A poll by ALCO pollster for the newspaper Proto Thema showed that 51.3 percent of Greeks would take to the streets if these new measures were agreed.
Polls show that although most Greeks disagree with the austerity plans, Prime Minister George Papandreou is still the country's most popular politician and his party leads in polls.
Copyright 2010 Reuters.
Sell all Greeks into slavery.
Cut them off. not sure why they were allowed in to begin with
Quote from: HVC on May 01, 2010, 09:27:53 AM
Cut them off. not sure why they were allowed in to begin with
Because they lied about how much debt they had.
Anyway, the Greeks blame this all on their political class, but the fact of the day is that it's a lot more of them - corruption is seemingly part of their culture. It's not just corruption though, but just general stupidity: people working for the forestry agency getting paid to maintain cut-down forests; lake maintainance workers getting paid to maintain dried-up lakes; many civil servants getting paid for 14 months of work a year, and so on...
The situation is then made worse by those who refuse to pay their taxes, and then also these idiots protesting, which adds another cost to the public finances. It's just surprising that they have lasted this long.
Quote from: Palisadoes on May 01, 2010, 11:31:31 AM
Quote from: HVC on May 01, 2010, 09:27:53 AM
Cut them off. not sure why they were allowed in to begin with
The situation is then made worse by those who refuse to pay their taxes, and then also these idiots protesting, which adds another cost to the public finances. It's just surprising that they have lasted this long.
It's because Europe in general has a hard-on for Greece. See: Byzantinophilia, accepting Greek asshattery over Macedonia, Cyprus, letting Greece and Greek Cyprus into the EU - the latter supposedly after the former threatened to stop the admission of Romania, et al if Greek Cyprus wasn't let in.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 01, 2010, 08:44:47 AM
Irresponsible morons, they keep this shit up and after the state collapses into insolvency they'll have a real junta or dictatorship of some flavor or another on their hands.
I don't remember you calling the teabaggers out like this. But both seem to have the same motivation, no?
Quote from: Faeelin on May 01, 2010, 12:43:16 PM
I don't remember you calling the teabaggers out like this. But both seem to have the same motivation, no?
:yes: Holding on to overpaid public sector jobs.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 01, 2010, 01:06:11 PM
Quote from: Faeelin on May 01, 2010, 12:43:16 PM
I don't remember you calling the teabaggers out like this. But both seem to have the same motivation, no?
:yes: Holding on to overpaid public sector jobs.
There is no evidence that the Greeks protesting are all, or even most, angry civil servants.
Quote from: Faeelin on May 01, 2010, 12:43:16 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 01, 2010, 08:44:47 AM
Irresponsible morons, they keep this shit up and after the state collapses into insolvency they'll have a real junta or dictatorship of some flavor or another on their hands.
I don't remember you calling the teabaggers out like this. But both seem to have the same motivation, no?
The greeks don't like black people either? :huh:
Quote from: alfred russel on May 01, 2010, 01:23:32 PM
Quote from: Faeelin on May 01, 2010, 12:43:16 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 01, 2010, 08:44:47 AM
Irresponsible morons, they keep this shit up and after the state collapses into insolvency they'll have a real junta or dictatorship of some flavor or another on their hands.
I don't remember you calling the teabaggers out like this. But both seem to have the same motivation, no?
The greeks don't like black people either? :huh:
I thought no one in Europe did.
Quote from: Faeelin on May 01, 2010, 01:21:53 PM
There is no evidence that the Greeks protesting are all, or even most, angry civil servants.
I think the last thread on Greek protests spoke of public employees.
And I suppose a broad cross section of Greek society could take take to the streets to protest an increase in the VAT, but it also makes sense that public sector employees are the ones protesting elimination of two month annual bonuses and a freeze on their pay.
http://www.economist.com/blogs/charlemagne/2010/03/empathy_short_supply
QuoteThe late Andreas Papandreou's strategy in the 1980s was to give the disenfranchised, who formed the bulk of PASOK's voters, a shot at living like the middle class. If this meant throwing European assistance and subsidies around like political favors and giving pensions to people who had never contributed to social security (such as farmers), then so be it. At last, all those who had been shut out by the right-wing establishment which triumphed in the Civil War in 1946-49 – and which was thoroughly discredited by the dictatorship of 1967-74 – would get to share in the wealth of the nation. The fact that this new middle class was founded on wealth that the country was not producing meant that the economy broke free from all logic and went into its own orbit. PASOK established the National Health System and poured money into education but it also undermined the gains by destroying any semblance of hierarchy, accountability and recognition of merit in the public sector. This meant that no one really knew how much money was being spent nor whether those who deserved it most were getting it. Costs rose while productivity plummeted. A wasteful public sector, in turn, condemned the private sector to inefficiency and lack of competitiveness. New Democracy, especially in the 2004-09 period, made the situation worse by doing almost nothing to cut costs and increase revenues, allowing the economy to career out of control
The vast majority of Greek civil servants and others working in public enterprises are guaranteed lifetime employment. This practice arose from the country's recent past, when any new government coming to power would fire the employees hired by its predecessor and replace them with its own supporters. Unfortunately, immunity from dismissal has been abused and simply offers hundreds of thousands of employees shelter from changing economic conditions. The fact that these employees cannot be fired, except for extremely serious reasons, has contributed to the decline of productivity in the public sector.
Moreover, public servants are guaranteed promotions based on the years they are at work and can only move faster up the ladder if they have good connections with politicians and trade unionists. The latter resist any new hiring from the market, arguing that there are plenty of public servants who can do the job instead.
Newspapers here in Belgium talk all the time about the government needing to "buy social peace" by paying off some interest group or other. In Belgium, the alternative to "paix sociale" is a strike. In Greece, plenty of grown-ups remember when the alternative to social peace was their neighbour, or their loved-one, vanishing in the night into a jail cell or worse. The current clientelist truce between right and left is the price (albeit a horrible, wasteful price) established for the current version of social peace enjoyed in Greece.
from the economist a couple of months back iirc. Doesn't alleviate what needs to happen but it sheds some light as to why Greece is such a dunghole.
Greeks have funny last names. Papadoc!
And no, Greeks do not hate black people:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fkylecantlie.files.wordpress.com%2F2009%2F01%2Fwebster11.jpg&hash=09ea0ffc2651654798b229aa3421a291bc161964)
Quote from: Faeelin on May 01, 2010, 12:43:16 PM
I don't remember you calling the teabaggers out like this. But both seem to have the same motivation, no?
:huh:
Quote from: Jaron on May 01, 2010, 04:37:53 PM
And no, Greeks do not hate black people:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fkylecantlie.files.wordpress.com%2F2009%2F01%2Fwebster11.jpg&hash=09ea0ffc2651654798b229aa3421a291bc161964)
:lol:
Webster, I forgot about that little fucker.
Quote from: grumbler on May 01, 2010, 04:41:34 PM
Quote from: Faeelin on May 01, 2010, 12:43:16 PM
I don't remember you calling the teabaggers out like this. But both seem to have the same motivation, no?
:huh:
Be sensitive guys. This is autism awareness week.
Quote from: grumbler on May 01, 2010, 04:41:34 PM
Quote from: Faeelin on May 01, 2010, 12:43:16 PM
I don't remember you calling the teabaggers out like this. But both seem to have the same motivation, no?
:huh:
Grumbler, don't you know that the teabaggers are protesting against austerity measures demanded by the IMF and EU?
:lol:
Quote from: grumbler on May 01, 2010, 04:41:34 PM
Quote from: Faeelin on May 01, 2010, 12:43:16 PM
I don't remember you calling the teabaggers out like this. But both seem to have the same motivation, no?
:huh:
I lack the sophisticated, nuanced understanding of the motivations of Greek protestors that Tim displays, but the fundamentals behind both sets of protests seems pretty much the same. Both sets of protests are basically by a bunch of pissed off people who don't understand why the economy adn their country seem to have gone to hell.
As I understand it, the fundamental problem is that Greeks don't pay their own taxes. Now that's fucking brilliant, especially if they can get some fat German businessman to pay their taxes for them. The mainland Greeks have been loafing since 3d C. BC. They're fucking expert at two things: loafing, and getting conquered by people with darker skin than them.
Quote from: Faeelin on May 01, 2010, 01:21:53 PM
There is no evidence that the Greeks protesting are all, or even most, angry civil servants.
The ones today (yesterday) were apparently largely anarchists and trade unionists. The former protest for the sake of it, and the latter come from mainly the public sector, as far as I'm aware.
Quote from: Faeelin on May 01, 2010, 06:03:46 PM
I lack the sophisticated, nuanced understanding of the motivations of Greek protestors that Tim displays, but the fundamentals behind both sets of protests seems pretty much the same. Both sets of protests are basically by a bunch of pissed off people who don't understand why the economy adn their country seem to have gone to hell.
The Americans are protesting because they think the government is going to spend more and raise their taxes. The Greeks are protesting because the government is going to spend less so it can pay down the debt. Sure, you can simplify things so much that they're the same (the reason people are protesting is they don't like what the government's doing!) but what is the use of that?
Quote from: Faeelin on May 01, 2010, 06:03:46 PM
I lack the sophisticated, nuanced understanding of the motivations of Greek protestors that Tim displays, but the fundamentals behind both sets of protests seems pretty much the same. Both sets of protests are basically by a bunch of pissed off people who don't understand why the economy adn their country seem to have gone to hell.
I think you lack any understanding of what the tea party types seem to be protesting for. They
want the types of austerity measures the Greeks are protesting
against. They seem to me to be diametrically opposite on views and goals.
Quote from: Faeelin on May 01, 2010, 12:43:16 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 01, 2010, 08:44:47 AM
Irresponsible morons, they keep this shit up and after the state collapses into insolvency they'll have a real junta or dictatorship of some flavor or another on their hands.
I don't remember you calling the teabaggers out like this. But both seem to have the same motivation, no?
The tea baggers have yet to wield any appreciable power in the congress or on the streets nor are they likely too. Call me back when they bring Washington to a screeching halt.
Like any of us would ever return your phone calls. :rolleyes:
Quote from: Palisadoes
It's not just corruption though, but just general stupidity: people working for the forestry agency getting paid to maintain cut-down forests; lake maintainance workers getting paid to maintain dried-up lakes;
Waste is common in most countries. Want me to dug obscure examples of the same thing in the US? There are many of them...
Quote from: Palisadoes
Many civil servants getting paid for 14 months of work a year, and so on...
Actually, this is quite common in Southern Europe: Portugal and Spain also have 14 months, Italy and France have 13 months, Belgium too, Germany and Holland have similar season-linked payments.
Just because Americans and Brits like to be robbed blind by their bosses doesn't mean everyone else should do it.
ALSO, take note that the ordinary citizen earns very little. Counting with those extra wages, your average greek lives with the fabulous wage of about 18K per year [in Portugal is 10K per year], though with prices far superior of those in the US.
Take the extra pay away from people, and many will be facing dire financial problems - the extras were meant to allow people to actually go on vacation, or to buy things for the kids during Christmas. Without those, they cannot do so.
(in fact, most people depend on those just to balance their budgets; they don't go on vacation even with their vacation bonus)
Quote from: Scipio
As I understand it, the fundamental problem is that Greeks don't pay their own taxes.
Let me explain better:
The fundamental problem is that THE RICH don't pay their own taxes.
As you can guess, civil servants, being paid directly by the State, have no way to avoid taxation on what they earn - they pay it all.
It's the company bosses, the big managers, fund managers, politicians and rich bankers finding all kinds of loopholes to hide their true incomes that really cost the Greek State a fortune.
But the measures are always the same - it's the poor guys who cannot dodge taxes who have to pay more. The fatcats will continue to dodge taxes. You'll still see the marinas full of yachts and the politicians going on expensive travels (on taxpayer money), while the poorest will be denied even the money to buy their kids a Christmas present.
But it's the poor people who are the "idiots" for not wanting to be robbed to pay for the follies of the rich businessmen and the madness of the politicians... :rolleyes:
All the greasy peoples suck ass and couldn't work their way out of a wet fetus bag. They're lazy as fuck too.
Quote from: The Brain on May 02, 2010, 06:43:01 AM
All the greasy peoples suck ass and couldn't work their way out of a wet fetus bag. They're lazy as fuck too.
You mean like Iceland, who is also quite broke due to the bankers' greed?
Or Ireland, in dire straits after being the poster child of liberalization?
Or the Baltic States, which have imploded after being models of total liberalism?
Quote from: Martim Silva on May 02, 2010, 06:46:01 AM
Quote from: The Brain on May 02, 2010, 06:43:01 AM
All the greasy peoples suck ass and couldn't work their way out of a wet fetus bag. They're lazy as fuck too.
You mean like Iceland, who is also quite broke due to the bankers' greed?
Or Ireland, in dire straits after being the poster child of liberalization?
Or the Baltic States, which have imploded after being models of total liberalism?
You OK, kemosabe? I didn't mention those peoples at all.
Quote from: The Brain
You OK, kemosabe? I didn't mention those peoples at all.
Your comment was directed at Southern Europeans. I merely pointed out that non-southern europeans, indeed some rather blonde peoples, are having troubles just as deep.
The reason for the problems isn't racial nor cultural. It's closely linked to economic ideology.
That said, the Greek government revealed its plans for cuts, and they'll just cut the 13-14 wages of those making over 3,000 euro ($3,900) per month. All others will have their bonuses capped at 1,000 euro ($1,300). They fear revolution.
Still, it's insufficient. With these plans, Greece will suffer a strong recession and most likely will still be saddled with heavy debt after 3 years. Which means it will need more bailouts. Some are saying this may end up costing up to 250 billion euro, instead of the 120 billion initially advanced, and they may very well be right.
Greece hasn't contributed to humanity since it was analized by Alexander. Good riddance.
Quote from: Martim Silva on May 02, 2010, 06:39:07 AMWaste is common in most countries. Want me to dug obscure examples of the same thing in the US? There are many of them...
Well of course, but clearly not on the same scale as Greece (i.e. leading to bankruptcy).
QuoteActually, this is quite common in Southern Europe: Portugal and Spain also have 14 months, Italy and France have 13 months, Belgium too, Germany and Holland have similar season-linked payments.
Just because Americans and Brits like to be robbed blind by their bosses doesn't mean everyone else should do it.
It's not getting 'robbed', it's getting paid for work you've
actually done.
QuoteALSO, take note that the ordinary citizen earns very little. Counting with those extra wages, your average greek lives with the fabulous wage of about 18K per year [in Portugal is 10K per year], though with prices far superior of those in the US.
Take the extra pay away from people, and many will be facing dire financial problems - the extras were meant to allow people to actually go on vacation, or to buy things for the kids during Christmas. Without those, they cannot do so.
(in fact, most people depend on those just to balance their budgets; they don't go on vacation even with their vacation bonus)
Vacations aren't a necessity, they're a luxury. The government was good-willed in its intentions to give ordinary people a break. However, it's just not sustainable, and should've been stamped out ages ago.
QuoteATHENS — In the wealthy, northern suburbs of this city, where summer temperatures often hit the high 90s, just 324 residents checked the box on their tax returns admitting that they owned pools.
Athenians declared taxes at a local office. Greek's shadow economy represents 20 to 30 percent of its G.D.P.
So tax investigators studied satellite photos of the area — a sprawling collection of expensive villas tucked behind tall gates — and came back with a decidedly different number: 16,974 pools.
That kind of wholesale lying about assets, and other eye-popping cases that are surfacing in the news media here, points to the staggering breadth of tax dodging that has long been a way of life here.
Such evasion has played a significant role in Greece's debt crisis, and as the country struggles to get its financial house in order, it is going after tax cheats as never before.
Various studies, including one by the Federation of Greek Industries last year, have estimated that the government may be losing as much as $30 billion a year to tax evasion — a figure that would have gone a long way to solving its debt problems.
"We need to grow up," said Ioannis Plakopoulos, who like all owners of newspaper stands will have to give receipts and start using a cash register under the new tax laws passed last month. "We need to learn not to cheat or to let others cheat."
On the eve of an International Monetary Fund bailout deal that is sure to call for deep sacrifices here, including harsh austerity measures, layoffs and steep tax increases, many Greeks say they feel chastened by the financial crisis that has pushed the country to the edge of bankruptcy.
But even so, changing things will not be easy. Experts point out that ducking taxes is part of a broader culture of bribery and corruption that is deeply entrenched.
Mr. Plakopoulos, who supports most of the government's new efforts, admits that he and his friends used to chuckle over the best ways to avoid taxes.
To get more attentive care in the country's national health system, Greeks routinely pay doctors cash on the side, a practice known as "fakelaki," Greek for little envelope. And bribing government officials to grease the wheels of bureaucracy is so standard that people know the rates. They say, for instance, that 300 euros, about $400, will get you an emission inspection sticker.
Some of the most aggressive tax evaders, experts say, are the self-employed, a huge pool of people in this country of small businesses. It includes not just taxi drivers, restaurant owners and electricians, but engineers, architects, lawyers and doctors.
The cheating is often quite bold. When tax authorities recently surveyed the returns of 150 doctors with offices in the trendy Athens neighborhood of Kolonaki, where Prada and Chanel stores can be found, more than half had claimed an income of less than $40,000. Thirty-four of them claimed less than $13,300, a figure that exempted them from paying any taxes at all.
Such incomes defy belief, said Ilias Plaskovitis, the general secretary of the Finance Ministry, who has been in charge of revamping the country's tax laws. "You need more than that to pay your rent in that neighborhood," he said.
He said there were only a few thousand citizens in this country of 11 million who last year declared an income of more than $132,000. Yet signs of wealth abound.
"There are many people with a house, with a cottage in the country, with two cars and maybe a small boat who claim they are earning 12,000 euros a year," Mr. Plaskovitis said, which is about $15,900. "You cannot heat this house or buy the gas for the car with that kind of income."
The Greek government has set a goal for itself of collecting at least $1.6 billion more than last year — a modest goal, Mr. Plaskovitis believes. But European Union officials were so skeptical, Mr. Plaskovitis said, they would not even allow the figure to be included in the budget forecast used in negotiations over the bailout package.
"They said, 'Yes, yes, we have heard that before, but it never happens,' " he said.
Over the past decade, Greece actually lost ground in collecting taxes, even as the economy was booming. A 2008 European Union report on Greece tax shortfalls found that between 2000 and 2007, the country's average growth in nominal gross domestic product was 8.25 percent. Its taxes grew at just 7 percent.
How Greece ended up with this state of affairs is a matter of debate here. Some attribute it to Greece's long history under Turkish occupation, when Greeks got used to seeing the government as an enemy. Others point out that, classical history aside, Greece is actually a relatively young democracy.
Whatever the reason, Kostas Bakouris, the president of the Greek arm of the anticorruption organization Transparency International, said that Greeks were constantly facing the lure of petty corruption. "If they go to the mechanic, it is one price without a receipt and quite a bit more with it," Mr. Bakouris said.
He said his own sister had recently told him that she was uncomfortable asking her doctor for a receipt. "I said that's crazy," he said. "But still, that feeling is out there."
Various studies have concluded that Greece's shadow economy represented 20 to 30 percent of its gross domestic product. Friedrich Schneider, the chairman of the economics department at Johannes Kepler University of Linz, studies Europe's shadow economies; he said that Greece's was at 25 percent last year and estimated that it would rise to 25.2 percent in 2010. For comparison, the United States' was put at 7.8 percent.
The Finance Ministry believes that the new tax laws, which also increased the weight on income and value-added taxes, have laid the legal groundwork for better enforcement. In the past, the tax code gave many categories of workers special status. Entire professions were allowed to file a set income. For instance, newsstand owners could simply claim that they earned an income of 12,000 euros (about $15,900) and no questions were asked.
Now, most of these exceptions have been eliminated and the tax code has been simplified. It also offers various incentives to make people collect receipts — an important step, officials say, in shrinking the off-the-books economy.
In addition, the tax department is being reorganized so that regional offices will have far less autonomy.
Mr. Plaskovitis said that tax collectors had already begun using technology to crosscheck claims and that they had taken steps like asking luxury car dealerships for list of their clients. A lot of Greeks, he said, listed luxury cars as company cars, a practice that would be challenged in the future. "We do not believe you need a Porsche to sell Coca-Cola," he said.
Soon, Mr. Plaskovitis said, people will see results. "In the coming weeks," he said, "we are going to be closing down companies, restaurants and doctors' offices because they have not paid taxes."
But how fast progress will come is an open question. The changes have provoked protests and deep resentment in some circles. For instance, the president of the union for doctors who work in state hospitals, Stathis Tsoukalos, 60, calls the loss of a special tax status for his doctors wrongheaded and unfair. He contended that the special low tax rate was given to make up for the fact that doctors received very low pay.
Speaking of the doctors in the Kolonaki neighborhood who claimed small incomes, he said, they may have just opened their practices or bought real estate there with help from their parents.
Whether the country's tax collectors are up to the task is also unclear. Many Greeks say tax collectors have a reputation for being among the easiest officials to bribe. Some say tax troubles are usually solved in a three way split: You pay a third of what you owe to the government, a third to the collector and a third remains in your pocket.
Froso Stavraki, who has been a tax collector for 27 years and is now a high-ranking official in the union, readily concedes that there is some corruption in the ranks. But she contends that the politicians never wanted toughness.
"The orders from above were to do everyday tax processing," she said. "We were busy going over forms, checking on those who pay taxes, not those who didn't."
Reading that it sounds like the problem in Greece is not the spending side, but the revenue side. They need more efficient tax enforcement.
A personal anecdote I know is how a German mother of two never got a dime from the Greek father of her children despite that father having a nice villa and a yacht at the Mediterranean coast where the children visited every year for a couple of weeks. But according to Greek authorities he didn't have any money so they could not pay child support.
Greece agrees to terms, but will it be enough?
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/03/business/global/03drachma.html?hp
QuoteATHENS — In the wealthy, northern suburbs of this city, where summer temperatures often hit the high 90s, just 324 residents checked the box on their tax returns admitting that they owned pools.
So there is a fucking pool tax?
Quote from: Ed Anger on May 02, 2010, 09:57:14 AM
QuoteATHENS — In the wealthy, northern suburbs of this city, where summer temperatures often hit the high 90s, just 324 residents checked the box on their tax returns admitting that they owned pools.
So there is a fucking pool tax?
I think it is for any pool.
Quote from: grumbler on May 02, 2010, 10:00:27 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on May 02, 2010, 09:57:14 AM
QuoteATHENS — In the wealthy, northern suburbs of this city, where summer temperatures often hit the high 90s, just 324 residents checked the box on their tax returns admitting that they owned pools.
So there is a fucking pool tax?
I think it is for any pool.
:D
Quote from: Martim Silva on May 02, 2010, 06:39:07 AM
Just because Americans and Brits like to be robbed blind by their bosses doesn't mean everyone else should do it.
:lol: Of course not. Countries are free to pay their employees as much as they want. But we're talking about Greece, which can't borrow any more money to pay its employees as much they want.
Quote from: Zanza on May 02, 2010, 08:22:15 AM
Reading that it sounds like the problem in Greece is not the spending side, but the revenue side. They need more efficient tax enforcement.
I think it's a bit of both. But in the British hyperventilation ("ARE WE DOOMED?") one of the points everyone makes about why we're not like Greece is that we have a tax collection system that actually works.
Quote from: grumbler on May 01, 2010, 08:36:50 PMI think you lack any understanding of what the tea party types seem to be protesting for. They want the types of austerity measures the Greeks are protesting against. They seem to me to be diametrically opposite on views and goals.
I can't think of any austerity or budget balancing measures the tea partiers have seemed to support. I mean admittedly they're a negative movement (like the Greeks) protesting against rather than for something, so that's not necessarily going to happen anyway. But I can't think of any indication that they want to, for example, cut the big US government programs like social security, medicare or defence, or that they want to raise taxes.
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 02, 2010, 12:08:58 PM
I can't think of any austerity or budget balancing measures the tea partiers have seemed to support. I mean admittedly they're a negative movement (like the Greeks) protesting against rather than for something, so that's not necessarily going to happen anyway. But I can't think of any indication that they want to, for example, cut the big US government programs like social security, medicare or defence, or that they want to raise taxes.
I can think of one. Let's not have new bills every so often that cost billions of dollars. :mellow:
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 02, 2010, 12:08:58 PM
I can't think of any austerity or budget balancing measures the tea partiers have seemed to support.
Not surprising. They are pretty marginal here, so there is no reason to think that a Brit would remember their deficit-cutting proposals.
QuoteI mean admittedly they're a negative movement (like the Greeks) protesting against rather than for something, so that's not necessarily going to happen anyway.
:lol: No, movements like this (even the Greek protests) are demonstrating against things they dislike and in favor of things they like. They aren't truly negative, like the protest JMS organized in (I think) the 97 Blackpool SF Convention, where he had people (bored because they were standing around outside as a result of a fire alarm going off) chanting (Joe: )"Whadda we want?" (crowd:) "We don't know!" (Joe: )"Whenda we wannit?" (crowd:) "Now!"
Protests are by their nature more negative than positive in their message: they are, after all, called "protests!" :P
QuoteBut I can't think of any indication that they want to, for example, cut the big US government programs like social security, medicare or defence, or that they want to raise taxes.
There is no reason why their spending cut "proposals"
should be known across the pond, so I am not surprised you have missed what indications there are.
However, while you may not have heard their plans (and, again, no reason why you should, or should remember them if you did happen to hear them), the Tea party types are objecting to the ongoing deficits and the rise in government spending, not the reverse (which is what the Greeks are protesting). They almost certainly don't agree on the details like eliminating the Education department to save money (which is why there would be no reason for someone like you to even know about these kinds of "policies"), but they are agreed that the federal government taxes and spends too much. The TEA in "tea party" stands for "Taxed Enough Already"
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 02, 2010, 12:08:58 PM
I can't think of any austerity or budget balancing measures the tea partiers have seemed to support. I mean admittedly they're a negative movement (like the Greeks) protesting against rather than for something, so that's not necessarily going to happen anyway. But I can't think of any indication that they want to, for example, cut the big US government programs like social security, medicare or defence, or that they want to raise taxes.
With regards to the mainstream Republicans who have hijacked the movement, I agree. With regards to the Libertarians and libertarian Republicans who started it, that isn't true. The latter group does want to roll back existing programs, particularly Medicare, Social Security, and the Department of Education.
Quote from: grumbler on May 02, 2010, 01:40:57 PM
Not surprising. They are pretty marginal here, so there is no reason to think that a Brit would remember their deficit-cutting proposals.
Well show me them. If they're serious then I'll admit that I got them wrong on this.
QuoteProtests are by their nature more negative than positive in their message: they are, after all, called "protests!" :P
This is generally true but there can be protests for things too. There were some in favour of healthcare, most protests by women's rights and civil rights groups are for things, protests in this country by the Countryside Alliance and their opponents on fox hunting are for things. They're all trying to advance an argument rather that protesting against one - as is the case with the tea parties, the Greeks, the anti-war movement and other examples.
QuoteHowever, while you may not have heard their plans (and, again, no reason why you should, or should remember them if you did happen to hear them), the Tea party types are objecting to the ongoing deficits and the rise in government spending, not the reverse (which is what the Greeks are protesting). They almost certainly don't agree on the details like eliminating the Education department to save money (which is why there would be no reason for someone like you to even know about these kinds of "policies"), but they are agreed that the federal government taxes and spends too much. The TEA in "tea party" stands for "Taxed Enough Already"
As I say I'd be very interested to read them.
My impression is that, like the Greeks, they're disconnected from reality on the same point: we don't have to pay. The Greeks have built up debt through unsustainable policies but aren't willing to take the necessary pain. In the US you've built a welfare state, you've built the most expensive military in the world and at some point you'll either have to pay for it (tax rises which the tea parties oppose) or dismantle it (which, to the best of my knowledge, the tea parties don't support).
Incidentally abolishing the Department of Education - which I've no problem with - assuming that money isn't then reinvested into education would make really very little difference in terms of the deficit. It would be the equivalent of our National Insurance rise debate.
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on May 02, 2010, 01:47:07 PM
With regards to the mainstream Republicans who have hijacked the movement, I agree. With regards to the Libertarians and libertarian Republicans who started it, that isn't true. The latter group does want to roll back existing programs, particularly Medicare, Social Security, and the Department of Education.
I like how your phrasing seems to support the idea that the latter crackheads are sensible with their policy aims.
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on May 02, 2010, 01:47:07 PM
With regards to the mainstream Republicans who have hijacked the movement, I agree. With regards to the Libertarians and libertarian Republicans who started it, that isn't true. The latter group does want to roll back existing programs, particularly Medicare, Social Security, and the Department of Education.
This is moving a bit from the tea parties, but isn't the key difference between the Republicans who want to win elections (the leadership, I suppose) and so say they're defending Medicare, don't want to cut defence and distance themselves from proposals that touch Social Security such as the ideas raised by Paul Ryan or Ron Paul? It doesn't really matter how libertarian or not you are, from a national leadership perspective those ideas look dangerous.
I do think the Democrats are equally cowardly by the way, this isn't a right-wing thing. I think it's a problem that seems widespread throughout the US political system. Arguably you actually need cross-party consensus to do something unpopular like cutting defence, medicare and social security (as I say cutting the Department of Education is a joke, it's tiny in the big scheme of things).
Quote from: garbon on May 02, 2010, 01:53:42 PM
I like how your phrasing seems to support the idea that the latter crackheads are sensible with their policy aims.
Some of their policy aims are sensible. :P
Rolling back the DOE? Why?
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 02, 2010, 01:56:34 PM
This is moving a bit from the tea parties, but isn't the key difference between the Republicans who want to win elections (the leadership, I suppose) and so say they're defending Medicare, don't want to cut defence and distance themselves from proposals that touch Social Security such as the ideas raised by Paul Ryan or Ron Paul? It doesn't really matter how libertarian or not you are, from a national leadership perspective those ideas look dangerous.
I do think the Democrats are equally cowardly by the way, this isn't a right-wing thing. I think it's a problem that seems widespread throughout the US political system. Arguably you actually need cross-party consensus to do something unpopular like cutting defence, medicare and social security (as I say cutting the Department of Education is a joke, it's tiny in the big scheme of things).
Yes, I do think that's the crux of the matter. Its hard to make the painful decisions that need to be made and still get elected or re-elected. People often criticize politicians for not thinking past the next election. Thing is, the electorate often doesn't think very far in the future or outside their limited bubble, and so brings about the very thing they bitch about later when the shit hits the fan. I have no doubt that many of the mainstream Republican politicians affiliating themselves with the Tea Party movement show more support for the extreme ideas than they are willing to admit.
What the tea parties stand for isn't really definable because they are somewhat amorphous, but here is the TV spot that got them started:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEZB4taSEoA
I would say they are at the core anti redistributionist. It was a backlash that started to show with "Joe the Plumber" and got momentum with TARP (redistributing money to "Wall Street" and the UAW) and finally blew up with the stimulus and housing "bailout" (that never really happened). Middle income Americans who already feel under threat view the spending priorities as taking their money and giving it to "the losers" of society (be they GM, Citigroup, or the mythical and racially charged "welfare queen").
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 02, 2010, 01:51:20 PM
Well show me them. If they're serious then I'll admit that I got them wrong on this.
Come on over and stay awhile, and you'll here them on the radio. I have no idea what "show me" means, nor what "if they are serious" means. If this is all about you being right or wrong, then I have no problem saying "you are right" about whatever it is you think you are right about. :mellow:
QuoteThis is generally true but there can be protests for things too. There were some in favour of healthcare, most protests by women's rights and civil rights groups are for things, protests in this country by the Countryside Alliance and their opponents on fox hunting are for things. They're all trying to advance an argument rather that protesting against one - as is the case with the tea parties, the Greeks, the anti-war movement and other examples.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree on the differences between protests and demonstrations/marches. I think you are splitting hairs that need not be split, but if you want to argue that all "protests against" are the same, you certainly are correct in a trivial sense.
Quote
As I say I'd be very interested to read them.
You'll have to look them up. I am sure that they are on the internet somewhere, though probably badly organized and hard to find. Remember that this is a loose grouping of people, and the so-called "Tea Party Patriots" are just the Republicans calling themselves the Tea Party.
QuoteMy impression is that, like the Greeks, they're disconnected from reality on the same point: we don't have to pay. The Greeks have built up debt through unsustainable policies but aren't willing to take the necessary pain. In the US you've built a welfare state, you've built the most expensive military in the world and at some point you'll either have to pay for it (tax rises which the tea parties oppose) or dismantle it (which, to the best of my knowledge, the tea parties don't support).
The tea party types probably are disconnected from reality, in the sense that they seem to be proposing cutting spending to eliminate the deficit, and there are too many people whose rice bowls would be busted if that happened (including their own: they can say that they want social security eliminated, but they don't say what their parents are going to live on if their dream comes true). The (non-Republican carpetbagging) Tea Party people I have heard would have no problem cutting the military drastically - they think most foreign entanglements are a waste of time, money, and lives.
Quote from: grumbler on May 02, 2010, 02:22:02 PM
(including their own: they can say that they want social security eliminated, but they don't say what their parents are going to live on if their dream comes true).
Their own savings? :o
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 02, 2010, 01:56:34 PM
This is moving a bit from the tea parties, but isn't the key difference between the Republicans who want to win elections (the leadership, I suppose) and so say they're defending Medicare, don't want to cut defence and distance themselves from proposals that touch Social Security such as the ideas raised by Paul Ryan or Ron Paul? It doesn't really matter how libertarian or not you are, from a national leadership perspective those ideas look dangerous.
I do think the Democrats are equally cowardly by the way, this isn't a right-wing thing. I think it's a problem that seems widespread throughout the US political system. Arguably you actually need cross-party consensus to do something unpopular like cutting defence, medicare and social security (as I say cutting the Department of Education is a joke, it's tiny in the big scheme of things).
I think that this is true to a large degree, though there is a libertarian movement that has long recognized they won't get elected and get their policies adopted, and I think they were the ones who kinda pushed the tea party movement to begin with, using a more general "throw the bums out" motif.
Quote from: Jaron on May 02, 2010, 02:06:41 PM
Rolling back the DOE? Why?
Save money without harming anything significant (hell, maybe saving money and improving education at the same time!)
Quote from: garbon on May 02, 2010, 02:25:45 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 02, 2010, 02:22:02 PM
(including their own: they can say that they want social security eliminated, but they don't say what their parents are going to live on if their dream comes true).
Their own savings? :o
Yes, and that's the problem: the savings of the Tea Party types are eaten up replacing the lost income of their parents (whose retirement planning included having SS) and so any gains from getting their own SS payments back are eliminated.
I meant their parents. Don't have poor parents who were depending on SS. :x
Quote from: grumbler on May 02, 2010, 02:36:06 PM
Quote from: Jaron on May 02, 2010, 02:06:41 PM
Rolling back the DOE? Why?
Save money without harming anything significant (hell, maybe saving money and improving education at the same time!)
The DOE is the single most critical agency in the US. :huh:
Quote from: grumbler on May 02, 2010, 01:40:57 PM
The TEA in "tea party" stands for "Taxed Enough Already"
I figured it stood for the drink the Bostonians poured in their harbor 200 odd years ago.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 02, 2010, 03:30:09 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 02, 2010, 01:40:57 PM
The TEA in "tea party" stands for "Taxed Enough Already"
I figured it stood for the drink the Bostonians poured in their harbor 200 odd years ago.
They use that imagery, yes. They actually have nothing against the drink, though.
Not sure if the acronym was part of the original idea, or was tacked on later, though. It's hard to say when the tea party movement even began.
Quote from: Jaron on May 02, 2010, 02:52:04 PM
The DOE is the single most critical agency in the US. :huh:
:lol:
You never changed states while you were in school, did you? Even presuming education was the most important function of the government, very little of it is decided at the national level.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 02, 2010, 03:32:26 PM
Quote from: Jaron on May 02, 2010, 02:52:04 PM
The DOE is the single most critical agency in the US. :huh:
:lol:
You never changed states while you were in school, did you? Even presuming education was the most important function of the government, very little of it is decided at the national level.
How do you figure?
Is Jaron: working under a DOE grant?
Curriculum, teacher requirements, even how the schools are organized* are determined at state and local levels.
*I went from being in a middle school in 4th and 5th grade to being in an elementary school in 6th grade when I moved.
Quote from: Jaron on May 02, 2010, 02:52:04 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 02, 2010, 02:36:06 PM
Quote from: Jaron on May 02, 2010, 02:06:41 PM
Rolling back the DOE? Why?
Save money without harming anything significant (hell, maybe saving money and improving education at the same time!)
The DOE is the single most critical agency in the US. :huh:
DOE is the Department of Energy. :huh:
ED is the Department of Education.
I guess that's one of those things only professionals in the field would ever need to know, but it also highlights how insignificant the ED really in the the public consciousness.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Frepairstemcell.files.wordpress.com%2F2009%2F03%2Fautism-ribbon.jpg&hash=deaae82b5ea9ef09574f8a77d8c3bc5e7cece33f)
On nothing I wonder if JR's worries about why the EU were doing this as opposed to the IMF I wonder if it's possible that it's simply that Sarko doesn't want DSK to look too good? Is that too petty?
I found out today that the Greek retirement age was 53 until recently! 53!? :wacko: Ludicrous!
A long time ago I read that a Brazilian public employee could retiree at something like 38 with a full pension. Can't remember the exact age but it was something ridiculous.
When you live in the third world, 53 is old age.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 02, 2010, 04:45:14 PM
A long time ago I read that a Brazilian public employee could retiree at something like 38 with a full pension. Can't remember the exact age but it was something ridiculous.
Seems right to me. Join on at 18, work for 20 years.
Unternehmen Marita II is called for.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 02, 2010, 04:45:14 PM
A long time ago I read that a Brazilian public employee could retiree at something like 38 with a full pension. Can't remember the exact age but it was something ridiculous.
That is ludicrous!
That thing of civil servants retiring earlier than private sector workers is ludicrous by itself too (like it here until recently too). Public sector workers get it far too easy.
Quote from: Neil on May 02, 2010, 04:56:36 PM
When you live in the third world, 53 is old age.
The more I here about Greece the more I come to the conclusion that it is indeed a third world country. :lol:
Now that the salaries and benefits of the Greek tax collectors have been cut, they'll have more reason to take bribes on the side :lol:
So how are the PIIG nations doing these days? Rush said they were going to be turned into a new Caliphate. Well, that BAEN wackjob Kratman - who is probably a cover for Michael Savage - wrote that anyway,