http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article7056689.ece
Quote
Chief exorcist Father Gabriele Amorth says Devil is in the Vatican
Sex abuse scandals in the Roman Catholic Church are proof that that "the Devil is at work inside the Vatican", according to the Holy See's chief exorcist.
Father Gabriele Amorth, 85, who has been the Vatican's chief exorcist for 25 years and says he has dealt with 70,000 cases of demonic possession, said that the consequences of satanic infiltration included power struggles at the Vatican as well as "cardinals who do not believe in Jesus, and bishops who are linked to the Demon".
He added: "When one speaks of 'the smoke of Satan' [a phrase coined by Pope Paul VI in 1972] in the holy rooms, it is all true – including these latest stories of violence and paedophilia."
He claimed that another example of satanic behaviour was the Vatican "cover-up" over the deaths in 1998 of Alois Estermann, the then commander of the Swiss Guard, his wife and Corporal Cedric Tornay, a Swiss Guard, who were all found shot dead. "They covered up everything immediately," he said. "Here one sees the rot".
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A remarkably swift Vatican investigation concluded that Corporal Tornay had shot the commander and his wife and then turned his gun on himself after being passed over for a medal. However Tornay's relatives have challenged this. There have been unconfirmed reports of a homosexual background to the tragedy and the involvement of a fourth person who was never identfied.
Father Amorth, who has just published Memoirs of an Exorcist, a series of interviews with the Vatican journalist Marco Tosatti, said that the attempt on the life of Pope John Paul II in 1981 had been the work of the Devil, as had an incident last Christmas when a mentally disturbed woman threw herself at Pope Benedict XVI at the start of Midnight Mass, pulling him to the ground.
Father José Antonio Fortea Cucurull, a Rome-based exorcist, said that Father Amorth had "gone well beyond the evidence" in claiming that Satan had infiltrated the Vatican corridors.
"Cardinals might be better or worse, but all have upright intentions and seek the glory of God," he said. Some Vatican officials were more pious than others, "but from there to affirm that some cardinals are members of satanic sects is an unacceptable distance."
Father Amorth told La Repubblica that the devil was "pure spirit, invisible. But he manifests himself with blasphemies and afflictions in the person he possesses. He can remain hidden, or speak in different languages, transform himself or appear to be agreeable. At times he makes fun of me."
He said it sometimes took six or seven of his assistants to to hold down a possessed person. Those possessed often yelled and screamed and spat out nails or pieces of glass, which he kept in a bag. "Anything can come out of their mouths – finger-length pieces of iron, but also rose petals."
He said that hoped every diocese would eventually have a resident exorcist. Under Church Canon Law any priest can perform exorcisms, but in practice they are carried out by a chosen few trained in the rites.
Father Amorth was ordained in 1954 and became an official exorcist in 1986. In the past he has suggested that Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin were possessed by the Devil. He was among Vatican officials who warned that J. K. Rowling's Harry Potter novels made a "false distinction between black and white magic".
He approves, however, of the 1973 film The Exorcist, which although "exaggerated" offered a "substantially exact" picture of possession.
In 2001 he objected to the introduction of a new version of the exorcism rite, complaining that it dropped centuries-old prayers and was "a blunt sword" about which exorcists themselves had not been consulted. The Vatican said later that he and other exorcists could continue to use the old ritual.
He is the president of honour of the Association of Exorcists.
I'm all for exorcising JK Rowling. Throw in Stephanie Meyer while you're at it.
"At times he makes fun of me"--lol
I think it's cute when people believe in Satan. I mean, much more so than in God.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on March 10, 2010, 07:50:34 PM
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article7056689.ece
Quote
Chief exorcist Father Gabriele Amorth says Devil is in the Vatican
Sex abuse scandals in the Roman Catholic Church are proof that that "the Devil is at work inside the Vatican", according to the Holy See's chief exorcist.
Father Gabriele Amorth, 85, who has been the Vatican's chief exorcist for 25 years and says he has dealt with 70,000 cases of demonic possession, said that the consequences of satanic infiltration included power struggles at the Vatican as well as "cardinals who do not believe in Jesus, and bishops who are linked to the Demon".
He added: "When one speaks of 'the smoke of Satan' [a phrase coined by Pope Paul VI in 1972] in the holy rooms, it is all true – including these latest stories of violence and paedophilia."
He claimed that another example of satanic behaviour was the Vatican "cover-up" over the deaths in 1998 of Alois Estermann, the then commander of the Swiss Guard, his wife and Corporal Cedric Tornay, a Swiss Guard, who were all found shot dead. "They covered up everything immediately," he said. "Here one sees the rot".
Related Links
A remarkably swift Vatican investigation concluded that Corporal Tornay had shot the commander and his wife and then turned his gun on himself after being passed over for a medal. However Tornay's relatives have challenged this. There have been unconfirmed reports of a homosexual background to the tragedy and the involvement of a fourth person who was never identfied.
Father Amorth, who has just published Memoirs of an Exorcist, a series of interviews with the Vatican journalist Marco Tosatti, said that the attempt on the life of Pope John Paul II in 1981 had been the work of the Devil, as had an incident last Christmas when a mentally disturbed woman threw herself at Pope Benedict XVI at the start of Midnight Mass, pulling him to the ground.
Father José Antonio Fortea Cucurull, a Rome-based exorcist, said that Father Amorth had "gone well beyond the evidence" in claiming that Satan had infiltrated the Vatican corridors.
"Cardinals might be better or worse, but all have upright intentions and seek the glory of God," he said. Some Vatican officials were more pious than others, "but from there to affirm that some cardinals are members of satanic sects is an unacceptable distance."
Father Amorth told La Repubblica that the devil was "pure spirit, invisible. But he manifests himself with blasphemies and afflictions in the person he possesses. He can remain hidden, or speak in different languages, transform himself or appear to be agreeable. At times he makes fun of me."
He said it sometimes took six or seven of his assistants to to hold down a possessed person. Those possessed often yelled and screamed and spat out nails or pieces of glass, which he kept in a bag. "Anything can come out of their mouths – finger-length pieces of iron, but also rose petals."
He said that hoped every diocese would eventually have a resident exorcist. Under Church Canon Law any priest can perform exorcisms, but in practice they are carried out by a chosen few trained in the rites.
Father Amorth was ordained in 1954 and became an official exorcist in 1986. In the past he has suggested that Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin were possessed by the Devil. He was among Vatican officials who warned that J. K. Rowling's Harry Potter novels made a "false distinction between black and white magic".
He approves, however, of the 1973 film The Exorcist, which although "exaggerated" offered a "substantially exact" picture of possession.
In 2001 he objected to the introduction of a new version of the exorcism rite, complaining that it dropped centuries-old prayers and was "a blunt sword" about which exorcists themselves had not been consulted. The Vatican said later that he and other exorcists could continue to use the old ritual.
He is the president of honour of the Association of Exorcists.
I'm all for exorcising JK Rowling. Throw in Stephanie Meyer while you're at it.
"At times he makes fun of me"--lol
Perhaps a better translation would be "he mocks me"
Quote from: Caliga on March 10, 2010, 07:51:42 PM
I think it's cute when people believe in Satan. I mean, much more so than in God.
Don't you have to sort of take those two as a package deal? :huh:
Funny as balls.
The Frasinei Monastery in the Carpathians does the same thing: exorcism. And the whole ritual is in Latin, even though the monks are Orthodox. All prayers were obtained not through the Byzantine Church, but directly from Catholicism, in the 13th century after the arrival of the Teuton Knights. That is why, for example, exorcism is not so common in the East: there is one place in Western Ukrain and, I think, one in Bosnia. The demon business in Athos is different from the Catholic tradition but I'm not so familiar with it.
At Frasinei the regulations are extremly strict: no women, no meat, and the most important ceremony takes place from midnight to the break of dawn.
Quote from: ulmont on March 10, 2010, 11:37:28 PM
Quote from: Caliga on March 10, 2010, 07:51:42 PM
I think it's cute when people believe in Satan. I mean, much more so than in God.
Don't you have to sort of take those two as a package deal? :huh:
Yeah, but alot of the more mainline Christians I know don't go around actually talking about Satan and living in fear of boogeyman Satan. I guess 'believe' wasn't the best word to use in this context... maybe 'take Satan seriously'?
Quote from: Alexandru H. on March 11, 2010, 05:54:27 AM
At Frasinei the regulations are extremly strict: no women, no meat, and the most important ceremony takes place from midnight to the break of dawn.
Would that be the Holy Butsex Ceremony? :bowler:
Someone is said to have seen a rat singing, must be Satans work...
Quote from: Mr.Penguin on March 11, 2010, 07:54:10 AM
Someone is said to have seen a rat singing, must be Satans work...
Or just another interview with clergy...
Quote from: ulmont on March 10, 2010, 11:37:28 PM
Quote from: Caliga on March 10, 2010, 07:51:42 PM
I think it's cute when people believe in Satan. I mean, much more so than in God.
Don't you have to sort of take those two as a package deal? :huh:
No. :Jews:
Quote from: Caliga on March 11, 2010, 06:03:29 AM
Quote from: Alexandru H. on March 11, 2010, 05:54:27 AM
At Frasinei the regulations are extremly strict: no women, no meat, and the most important ceremony takes place from midnight to the break of dawn.
Would that be the Holy Butsex Ceremony? :bowler:
They don't limit that ceremony to the exorcists!
Venkman wouldn't take this shit.
Quote from: ulmont on March 10, 2010, 11:37:28 PM
Quote from: Caliga on March 10, 2010, 07:51:42 PM
I think it's cute when people believe in Satan. I mean, much more so than in God.
Don't you have to sort of take those two as a package deal? :huh:
Nah
Quote from: ulmont on March 10, 2010, 11:37:28 PM
Quote from: Caliga on March 10, 2010, 07:51:42 PM
I think it's cute when people believe in Satan. I mean, much more so than in God.
Don't you have to sort of take those two as a package deal? :huh:
No. :discordian: :luciferian:
Quote from: Martinus on March 11, 2010, 09:42:01 AM
Quote from: ulmont on March 10, 2010, 11:37:28 PM
Quote from: Caliga on March 10, 2010, 07:51:42 PM
I think it's cute when people believe in Satan. I mean, much more so than in God.
Don't you have to sort of take those two as a package deal? :huh:
No. :discordian: :luciferian:
Pretty sure the Satanists believe in God too.
Quote from: ulmont on March 11, 2010, 10:02:50 AM
Quote from: Martinus on March 11, 2010, 09:42:01 AM
Quote from: ulmont on March 10, 2010, 11:37:28 PM
Quote from: Caliga on March 10, 2010, 07:51:42 PM
I think it's cute when people believe in Satan. I mean, much more so than in God.
Don't you have to sort of take those two as a package deal? :huh:
No. :discordian: :luciferian:
Pretty sure the Satanists believe in God too.
That's nice. Good that I wasn't referring to Satanists though.
Quote from: Malthus on March 11, 2010, 09:12:00 AM
No. :Jews:
:huh: How is that possible when Satan is the primary antagonist in the Book of Genesis?
Quote from: Caliga on March 11, 2010, 01:07:41 PM
Quote from: Malthus on March 11, 2010, 09:12:00 AM
No. :Jews:
:huh: How is that possible when Satan is the primary antagonist in the Book of Genesis?
:glare: Take your goy logic elsewhere plz.
Quote from: Caliga on March 11, 2010, 01:07:41 PM
Quote from: Malthus on March 11, 2010, 09:12:00 AM
No. :Jews:
:huh: How is that possible when Satan is the primary antagonist in the Book of Genesis?
:huh:
He isn't. He is never mentioned in Genesis.
It is a purely Christian thing to identify the serpent in the Eden story as "satan" (an indentification that makes no sense, as it is obvious that the serpent story is a "just-so" story about how snakes came to have no feet and why people hate snakes).
In the OT, Satan is a bit player in the Book of Job, essentially a devil's advocate, or prosecutor of humanity (God is the judge) - a sort of heavenly Barrister Boy :D . He's certainly not a co-equal sort of anti-deity as in Christianity.
Quote from: Malthus on March 11, 2010, 03:20:07 PM
It is a purely Christian thing to identify the serpent in the Eden story as "satan" (an indentification that makes no sense, as it is obvious that the serpent story is a "just-so" story about how snakes came to have no feet and why people hate snakes).
In the OT, Satan is a bit player in the Book of Job, essentially a devil's advocate, or prosecutor of humanity (God is the judge) - a sort of heavenly Barrister Boy :D . He's certainly not a co-equal sort of anti-deity as in Christianity.
Wow, that's interesting. Must be the gnostic influence on early Christianity or something.
Quote from: Malthus on March 11, 2010, 03:20:07 PM
Quote from: Caliga on March 11, 2010, 01:07:41 PM
Quote from: Malthus on March 11, 2010, 09:12:00 AM
No. :Jews:
:huh: How is that possible when Satan is the primary antagonist in the Book of Genesis?
:huh:
He isn't. He is never mentioned in Genesis.
It is a purely Christian thing to identify the serpent in the Eden story as "satan" (an indentification that makes no sense, as it is obvious that the serpent story is a "just-so" story about how snakes came to have no feet and why people hate snakes).
In the OT, Satan is a bit player in the Book of Job, essentially a devil's advocate, or prosecutor of humanity (God is the judge) - a sort of heavenly Barrister Boy :D . He's certainly not a co-equal sort of anti-deity as in Christianity.
I always thought that was a strange story when I was a kid. Snakes don't eat dust. And what would a snake with legs look like?
Quote from: Caliga on March 11, 2010, 03:28:06 PM
Quote from: Malthus on March 11, 2010, 03:20:07 PM
It is a purely Christian thing to identify the serpent in the Eden story as "satan" (an indentification that makes no sense, as it is obvious that the serpent story is a "just-so" story about how snakes came to have no feet and why people hate snakes).
In the OT, Satan is a bit player in the Book of Job, essentially a devil's advocate, or prosecutor of humanity (God is the judge) - a sort of heavenly Barrister Boy :D . He's certainly not a co-equal sort of anti-deity as in Christianity.
Wow, that's interesting. Must be the gnostic influence on early Christianity or something.
I've heard it was the influence of Manicheism (they were an offshoot of Zorastrianism and believed in a dualistic sort of diety - a good god and a bad god).
For interest, here's the bit of Genesis often cited as proof of the devil's malign influence:
Quote1Now(A) the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the LORD God had made.
He said to the woman, "Did God actually say, 'You[a] shall not eat of any tree in the garden'?" 2And the woman said to the serpent, "We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden, 3but God said,(B) 'You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.'" 4(C) But the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die. 5For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." 6So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit(D) and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her,(E) and he ate. 7(F) Then the eyes of both were opened,(G) and they knew that they were naked. And they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loincloths.
8And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool[c] of the day, and the man and his wife(H) hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden. 9But the LORD God called to the man and said to him, "Where are you?"[d] 10And he said, "I heard the sound of you in the garden, and I was afraid,(I) because I was naked, and I hid myself." 11He said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten of the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?" 12The man said,(J) "The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me fruit of the tree, and I ate." 13Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this that you have done?" The woman said,(K) "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."
14The LORD God said to the serpent,
"Because you have done this,
cursed are you above all livestock
and above all beasts of the field;
on your belly you shall go,
and(L) dust you shall eat
all the days of your life.
15I will put enmity between you and the woman,
and between your offspring[e] and(M) her offspring;
(N) he shall bruise your head,
and you shall bruise his heel."
16To the woman he said,
"I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing;
(O) in pain you shall bring forth children.
(P) Your desire shall be for[f] your husband,
and he shall(Q) rule over you."
17And to Adam he said,
"Because you have listened to the voice of your wife
and have eaten of the tree
(R) of which I commanded you,
'You shall not eat of it,'
(S) cursed is the ground because of you;
(T) in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life;
18thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you;
and you shall eat the plants of the field.
19By the sweat of your face
you shall eat bread,
till you return to the ground,
for out of it you were taken;
(U) for you are dust,
and(V) to dust you shall return."
Jews take this literally, and state that the snake in the story was an actual, literal snake - indeed, the phrase "the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the LORD God had made" seems pretty unequivocally to state as much. The snake does his thing and as a result, God curses men, women - and snakes.
QuoteBecause you have done this,
cursed are you above all livestock
and above all beasts of the field
Christians believe that "the serpent" is actually the Devil in the guise of a serpent. There is nothing in the text to hint that this is actually the case.
Quote from: Malthus on March 11, 2010, 03:38:13 PM
Christians believe that "the serpent" is actually the Devil in the guise of a serpent. There is nothing in the text to hint that this is actually the case.
Nothing in Genesis, no. Explicitly stated in the Book of Revelations, mind you.
QuoteAnd he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years
Quote from: ulmont on March 11, 2010, 03:41:03 PM
Quote from: Malthus on March 11, 2010, 03:38:13 PM
Christians believe that "the serpent" is actually the Devil in the guise of a serpent. There is nothing in the text to hint that this is actually the case.
Nothing in Genesis, no. Explicitly stated in the Book of Revelations, mind you.
QuoteAnd he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years
Yeah, but Jews, in general, find the Book of Revelations about as religiously persuasive as any other really bad Acid trip written up. :D
In short, this whole construction of the Devil thingie is a purely Christian concept. Jews don't go in for it and never have - it smacks of less than stringent monotheism, the biggest no-no in Judaism.
Quote from: Malthus on March 11, 2010, 03:52:42 PM
monotheism
:bleeding: Of all the fucking people you can worship. Jews really have crap for taste.
Quote from: Malthus on March 11, 2010, 03:52:42 PM
Yeah, but Jews, in general, find the Book of Revelations about as religiously persuasive as any other really bad Acid trip written up. :D
Sounds about right.
Quote from: The Brain on March 11, 2010, 03:54:54 PM
Quote from: Malthus on March 11, 2010, 03:52:42 PM
monotheism
:bleeding: Of all the fucking people you can worship. Jews really have crap for taste.
Well, at least there is no question: Mono saves. :D
Quote from: ulmont on March 11, 2010, 03:41:03 PM
Quote from: Malthus on March 11, 2010, 03:38:13 PM
Christians believe that "the serpent" is actually the Devil in the guise of a serpent. There is nothing in the text to hint that this is actually the case.
Nothing in Genesis, no. Explicitly stated in the Book of Revelations, mind you.
QuoteAnd he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years
I wish the whole Bible read like the Book of Revelations. It's like God decided to ask Iron Maiden to write the final book or something. :punk:
Quote from: Caliga on March 11, 2010, 04:29:44 PM
Quote from: ulmont on March 11, 2010, 03:41:03 PM
Quote from: Malthus on March 11, 2010, 03:38:13 PM
Christians believe that "the serpent" is actually the Devil in the guise of a serpent. There is nothing in the text to hint that this is actually the case.
Nothing in Genesis, no. Explicitly stated in the Book of Revelations, mind you.
QuoteAnd he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years
I wish the whole Bible read like the Book of Revelations. It's like God decided to ask Iron Maiden to write the final book or something. :punk:
Hopefully, God would actually use a good band.
Quote from: Malthus on March 11, 2010, 03:20:07 PM
He isn't. He is never mentioned in Genesis.
Unless one ascribes that identity to the angel that wrestles with Jacob, but then you have a rather different sort of Satan than the one we are familiar with.
QuoteIn the OT, Satan is a bit player in the Book of Job
A book which along with Esther seems to have made the canonical cut only through negligent editorial oversight.
Quote from: Ed Anger on March 11, 2010, 06:34:28 PM
Hopefully, God would actually use a good band.
:ultra:
Quote from: Caliga on March 11, 2010, 06:59:41 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on March 11, 2010, 06:34:28 PM
Hopefully, God would actually use a good band.
:ultra:
I can't help it is Iron Maiden is shit, and hope anybody wearing a Iron Maiden T-shirt is kicked in the balls.
Quote from: Ed Anger on March 11, 2010, 06:34:28 PM
Hopefully, God would actually use a good band.
Up the Irons!
Quote from: ulmont on March 11, 2010, 08:24:08 PM
Up the Irons!
:cool: :punk:
Dudes, seriously, 'Number of the Beast' is one of the greatest metal songs ever--and of course perfectly appropriate to any discussion about what metal group should have written Revelations. :D
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on March 11, 2010, 06:53:11 PM
Quote from: Malthus on March 11, 2010, 03:20:07 PM
He isn't. He is never mentioned in Genesis.
Unless one ascribes that identity to the angel that wrestles with Jacob, but then you have a rather different sort of Satan than the one we are familiar with.
QuoteIn the OT, Satan is a bit player in the Book of Job
A book which along with Esther seems to have made the canonical cut only through negligent editorial oversight.
What's wrong with Esther? A religion without a commandment that young ladies shall, once a year, dress up like Persian whores and get drunk would be a poor thing indeed! :(
:pwnd:
Quote from: Caliga on March 10, 2010, 07:51:42 PM
I think it's cute when people believe in Satan. I mean, much more so than in God.
I think it's easier to believe in Satan than in God.
Quote from: Sheilbh on March 13, 2010, 10:40:06 PM
Quote from: Caliga on March 10, 2010, 07:51:42 PM
I think it's cute when people believe in Satan. I mean, much more so than in God.
I think it's easier to believe in Satan than in God.
Good point. At least you have some empirical evidence that does not directly disprove the hypothesis of there being a malevolent non-omnipotent, non-omniscient, non-omnipresent entity. The same cannot be said about the existence of a benevolent, omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent deity.