A few weeks ago one of my Sergeants came to me with a very unusual problem.
He was kind of the joker of the unit, always able to break up tension with humor and very creative so I saw him as a great asset to the unit and a friend. He had previously been in the 82nd and I knew he was seeing a psychiatrist for some past issues dealing with deployments (or so I thought).
He was very scared and told me that he suffered from gender identity disorder and has decided to make a drastic change in lifestyle which he could not, nor wanted to, conceal.
He feels very uncomfortable around other Soldiers and desires to leave qithout creating much fuss. He is obviously quite reluctant to reveal this part of himself, but felt he could open up to me. I've kept the whole matter very quiet, confiding only in the commander, and we're trying to get him discharged on a medical without letting anybody know the reason.
I never expected to encounter anything like this and had no idea how i would deal with such an occasion but it went rather well in the end - being catholic helps in that matter. At the end of our conversation I told him that I learned something about myself today and I want to thank him for making me a better person, at which point he nearly broke down and cried.
Beign a First Sergeant is a hard job. I've put out two Soldiers for illegal drugs, one for PTSD, one for being mentally unstable, one for being a shitbag, and now one Soldier for wanting to become a woman. I also had to tell one of my full-timers that he should look for a new line of work more in line with his work ethic, and had to push non-judicial punishment for two Soldiers, one for forging paperwork and one for drunkeness on duty.
Gender Identity wouldn't be a difficult or "unusual" problem would only happen if your workplace wasn't a demented pit of discrimination and low-class machoismo.
Boys who think they're girls are unusual anywhere.
Props to you for dealing with it well, all things considered.
We have seen it before but it still surprises me whenever it happens: an average Languishite is actually less of a dick in real life than he is on Languish. :thumbsup:
Quote from: Martinus on January 22, 2010, 03:11:22 AM
We have seen it before but it still surprises me whenever it happens: an average Languishite is actually less of a dick in real life than he is on Languish. :thumbsup:
Are you implying something about yourself? ;)
Its weird how it always seems to be big tough soldier men or truckers who get to 40 and suddenly decide to be a girly girl.
Does. Not. Work.
Science is...incapable.
Quote from: Tyr on January 22, 2010, 07:10:45 AM
Its weird how it always seems to be big tough soldier men or truckers who get to 40 and suddenly decide to be a girly girl.
Does. Not. Work.
Science is...incapable.
Mid life crisis gone horribly, terribly wrong. :bleeding: :lol:
Quote from: chipwich on January 22, 2010, 01:16:09 AM
Gender Identity wouldn't be a difficult or "unusual" problem would only happen if your workplace wasn't a demented pit of discrimination and low-class machoismo.
So you are saying that having men suddenly decide to become girls is easy and usual where you work?
Something tells me this is total bullshit, and the average workplace (where such things are difficult and unusual) isn't a "demented pit of discrimination and low-class machoismo."
One of my father's collegues at the university underwent a sex change. "He" took hormones, had surgery to implant boobs, started wearing dresses and make-up. This all happened gradually, over months.
Very typically, my father was not told by anyone and did not notice. Also typically, when he was finally told (by my mother), he did not care.
I saw this person, she was invited to a baby function (together with his wife - they had stayed married through this process). She wasn't a convincing woman, to say the least.
Quote from: Jacob on January 22, 2010, 01:39:24 AM
Props to you for dealing with it well, all things considered.
Agreed. Good going on handling this in the best interests of the soldier involved, to prevent undue stress at a time where he was already under much stress as it was.
Quote from: Martinus on January 22, 2010, 03:11:22 AM
We have seen it before but it still surprises me whenever it happens: an average Languishite is actually less of a dick in real life than he is on Languish. :thumbsup:
All things considered, I think the odds are astronomically against an average Languishite being *more* of a dick in real life.
Two people my father knew and worked with in the sportswriting / newspaper business have come out as transgendered. One in his 40s, the other must've been in his 50s. The one that I've seen and met afterwards did not make a terrible convincing woman for what little it's worth. The other one was actually at one time a very good friend of my father. Hell about 8 - 9 years ago my father and his friend (at the time a man) stayed at my apartment in Calgary while they were covering a sporting event.
My father is a wonderful man - I've never heard him say anything racist or bigoted. But you know he just couldn't 'handle' the change. He wants his friend to do whatever is best for him, but he really doesn't know how to react around him, and in effect has really just stopped communicating with him/her.
(I've used male pronouns throughout because I don't know what else to use).
Coming out as transgendered has got to be extremely difficult, no matter where you work.
Quote from: ulmont on January 22, 2010, 11:14:08 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 22, 2010, 03:11:22 AM
We have seen it before but it still surprises me whenever it happens: an average Languishite is actually less of a dick in real life than he is on Languish. :thumbsup:
All things considered, I think the odds are astronomically against an average Languishite being *more* of a dick in real life.
And this is why you should play wargames with me.
Quote from: Habbaku on January 22, 2010, 12:20:40 PM
Quote from: ulmont on January 22, 2010, 11:14:08 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 22, 2010, 03:11:22 AM
We have seen it before but it still surprises me whenever it happens: an average Languishite is actually less of a dick in real life than he is on Languish. :thumbsup:
All things considered, I think the odds are astronomically against an average Languishite being *more* of a dick in real life.
And this is why you should play wargames with me.
You are: The Exception That Proves The Rule?
If someone legally changes sex are they eligible to serve in the US military?
Quote from: DisturbedPervert on January 22, 2010, 12:58:47 PM
If someone legally changes sex are they eligible to serve in the US military?
Can one "legally change sex?"
Quote from: grumbler on January 22, 2010, 01:05:15 PM
Quote from: DisturbedPervert on January 22, 2010, 12:58:47 PM
If someone legally changes sex are they eligible to serve in the US military?
Can one "legally change sex?"
Yeah. When the DMV decides to "correct the obvious mistake someone made on your driver's license" - BAM!
Quote from: ulmont on January 22, 2010, 01:06:13 PM
Quote from: grumbler on January 22, 2010, 01:05:15 PM
Quote from: DisturbedPervert on January 22, 2010, 12:58:47 PM
If someone legally changes sex are they eligible to serve in the US military?
Can one "legally change sex?"
Yeah. When the DMV decides to "correct the obvious mistake someone made on your driver's license" - BAM!
Not to mention passport and birth certificates that state the wrong gender.
Good work. I especially like how you're spilling the story on the Internets. :)
Quote from: crazy canuck on January 22, 2010, 01:14:44 PM
Quote from: ulmont on January 22, 2010, 01:06:13 PM
Quote from: grumbler on January 22, 2010, 01:05:15 PM
Quote from: DisturbedPervert on January 22, 2010, 12:58:47 PM
If someone legally changes sex are they eligible to serve in the US military?
Can one "legally change sex?"
Yeah. When the DMV decides to "correct the obvious mistake someone made on your driver's license" - BAM!
Not to mention passport and birth certificates that state the wrong gender.
Gender is one thing, sex is another (related, but different) thing.
How would one "legally" change sex?
Quote from: grumbler on January 22, 2010, 02:10:44 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on January 22, 2010, 01:14:44 PM
Quote from: ulmont on January 22, 2010, 01:06:13 PM
Quote from: grumbler on January 22, 2010, 01:05:15 PM
Quote from: DisturbedPervert on January 22, 2010, 12:58:47 PM
If someone legally changes sex are they eligible to serve in the US military?
Can one "legally change sex?"
Yeah. When the DMV decides to "correct the obvious mistake someone made on your driver's license" - BAM!
Not to mention passport and birth certificates that state the wrong gender.
Gender is one thing, sex is another (related, but different) thing.
How would one "legally" change sex?
One one speaks of sex in a legal context one is speaking of gender.
You are playing dumb, like the dumb blonde who writes in "yes" next to the question of sex on her job application.
Quote from: crazy canuck on January 22, 2010, 02:23:55 PM
One one speaks of sex in a legal context one is speaking of gender.
You are playing dumb, like the dumb blonde who writes in "yes" next to the question of sex on her job application.
I take it that because you are dodging the question and resorting to mischaracterizations of my position that you do not know the answer to my question, but don't want to admit it! :lmfao:
It's okay if you don't know, but when you don't its best just to remain silent.
No a lawyer or judge can't change your sex; however a magician can. :ph34r:
Quote from: garbon on January 22, 2010, 05:29:03 PM
No a lawyer or judge can't change your sex; however a magician can. :ph34r:
But would the magician's act "legally" change your sex? Is there a "legal" sex or gender that one has?
It enters into consideration when one considers things like Title IX in the US, which refers to "sex" and not "gender." According to the dictionaries I consult, sex is biological and gender is cultural, so I don't see how they could be legally the same, as CC asserts they are.
Quote from: grumbler on January 22, 2010, 06:24:19 PM
But would the magician's act "legally" change your sex? Is there a "legal" sex or gender that one has?
It enters into consideration when one considers things like Title IX in the US, which refers to "sex" and not "gender." According to the dictionaries I consult, sex is biological and gender is cultural, so I don't see how they could be legally the same, as CC asserts they are.
I was agreeing with you. -_-
What's the legal sex of XXY and XXYY individuals?
Quote from: Fate on January 22, 2010, 06:32:26 PM
What's the legal sex of XXY and XXYY individuals?
For XXY, the parents usually make a decision at birth (often female, as - to quote a transgender friend - "It's easier to make a hole than a pole."). This decision has a tendency to haunt the person through their life.
See also http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/gender/beck.html
Yeah well done Hans. I think that is a difficult/weird issue to have to deal with and from what you've said you dealt with it with tact and kindness :)
Quote from: grumbler on January 22, 2010, 02:10:44 PM
How would one "legally" change sex?
In Sweden it goes something like this.
1) Get a diagnosis from a psychiatrist.
2) Hormone treatment + surgery
3) Apply for change at the tax agency (IRS?) (They are responsible for keeping track of all citizens and legal residents)
When 3 occurs, you get a name-change (if you want) and a new social security number (in Sweden the social security number also identifies gender).
Quote from: Bluebook on January 23, 2010, 09:20:31 AM
Quote from: grumbler on January 22, 2010, 02:10:44 PM
How would one "legally" change sex?
In Sweden it goes something like this.
1) Get a diagnosis from a psychiatrist.
2) Hormone treatment + surgery
3) Apply for change at the tax agency (IRS?) (They are responsible for keeping track of all citizens and legal residents)
When 3 occurs, you get a name-change (if you want) and a new social security number (in Sweden the social security number also identifies gender).
It does?
Which one of the last 4 is this? Odd for male, even for female (or vice-versa)?
(or is this something utterly different to a person number?)
Quote from: Bluebook on January 23, 2010, 09:20:31 AM
Quote from: grumbler on January 22, 2010, 02:10:44 PM
How would one "legally" change sex?
In Sweden it goes something like this.
1) Get a diagnosis from a psychiatrist.
2) Hormone treatment + surgery
3) Apply for change at the tax agency (IRS?) (They are responsible for keeping track of all citizens and legal residents)
When 3 occurs, you get a name-change (if you want) and a new social security number (in Sweden the social security number also identifies gender).
Just ignore grumbler. He is playing his usual semantics game of sex != gender. :rolleyes:
Quote from: Martinus on January 24, 2010, 04:22:51 AM
Just ignore grumbler. He is playing his usual semantics game of sex != gender. :rolleyes:
I will have to admit this is pretty petty even for Grumbler.
Quote from: Bluebook on January 23, 2010, 09:20:31 AM
In Sweden it goes something like this.
1) Get a diagnosis from a psychiatrist.
2) Hormone treatment + surgery
3) Apply for change at the tax agency (IRS?) (They are responsible for keeping track of all citizens and legal residents)
When 3 occurs, you get a name-change (if you want) and a new social security number (in Sweden the social security number also identifies gender).
Thanks. Anyone have equivalent info for any other country?
Quote from: Martinus on January 24, 2010, 04:22:51 AM
Just ignore grumbler. He is playing his usual semantics game of sex != gender. :rolleyes:
If you took your own advice, you'd sound silly less often. As a lawyer would tell you, words used in law have meaning, and when a law refers to "sex" (like US Title IX) it is means the word is significant.
Now, if you really want to argue that the English words "sex" and "gender" are synonymous, knock yourself right out. You will have to refute every dictionary and medical journal, but I am sure that Martinus, Supergenius will find that no problem! :lmfao:
Not that the difference between them matters to my point, which was "how does one legally change sex?" but that windmill
might be a giant.
Quote from: Razgovory on January 24, 2010, 05:41:36 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 24, 2010, 04:22:51 AM
Just ignore grumbler. He is playing his usual semantics game of sex != gender. :rolleyes:
I will have to admit this is pretty petty even for Grumbler.
Oh, Noes! The Raz-Marty dogpile is activated! :jaron:
All we need is Syt or grallon to join in to make it a Trifecta of dogpilers.
Quote from: Tyr on January 23, 2010, 09:25:23 PM
It does?
Which one of the last 4 is this? Odd for male, even for female (or vice-versa)?
(or is this something utterly different to a person number?)
The third one of the last four. Odd for male, even for female.
Actually those last four are pretty interesting. They used to identify which hospital you were born at, but that was dropped for those born after 1980-something. 27 for example, was Småland/Växjö if I remember correctly.
The first two identified place of birth, the third one identified sex, and the last one was a control-figure that showed that all other figures in the social security number were correct. Via some mathematical formula involving all the other figures, the last control figure was determined.
Quote from: grumbler on January 24, 2010, 07:26:13 AM
All we need is Syt or grallon to join in to make it a Trifecta of dogpilers.
grallon has to take that one if he likes. On the whole I don't deem your posts worth commenting on or answering to. I have more meaningful ways to waste my time.
Quote from: Syt on January 24, 2010, 09:02:50 AM
Quote from: grumbler on January 24, 2010, 07:26:13 AM
All we need is Syt or grallon to join in to make it a Trifecta of dogpilers.
grallon has to take that one if he likes. On the whole I don't deem your posts worth commenting on or answering to. I have more meaningful ways to waste my time.
Ah, the old "I am pretending to ignore you but I am not" routine! :lmfao:
An old Languish standard that hasn't worked for anyone yet, because everyone can see the responses that the poster pretends he isn't making.
If you really didn't think my posts worth responding to, you wouldn't have responded.
Now, the forum wonders: can Syt resist responding to the post chiding him for responding when he says he doesn't? Film at 11.
Quote from: Martinus on January 24, 2010, 04:22:51 AM
Just ignore grumbler. He is playing his usual semantics game of sex != gender. :rolleyes:
Well, to be fair, sex isn't the same as gender.
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 24, 2010, 10:20:55 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 24, 2010, 04:22:51 AM
Just ignore grumbler. He is playing his usual semantics game of sex != gender. :rolleyes:
Well, to be fair, sex isn't the same as gender.
I know. But unless one is discussing gender theory etc. both are used pretty much interchangeably in day-to-day conversations.
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 24, 2010, 10:20:55 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 24, 2010, 04:22:51 AM
Just ignore grumbler. He is playing his usual semantics game of sex != gender. :rolleyes:
Well, to be fair, sex isn't the same as gender.
My question has to do with the law. According to one lawyer (CC) they are
legally the same. Looking at actual laws in the US, though, the word "sex" seems to be the one used for the biological distinction. "Gender" seems to crop up in the context of "crossgendered." That still leaves the question of the "legal sex" of the crossgendered person, which is back to where I started.
Besides, if one was to be petty and annoyingly nitpicky, then neither "changing your sex" nor "changing your gender" works in the legal context. What changes is the way the law recognizes your gender and/or sex, but neither your biological sex nor your gender identity is affected by this. You could say that the legal process is to align the official recognition with your gender rather than your sex.
Quote from: Martinus on January 24, 2010, 10:23:30 AM
I know. But unless one is discussing gender theory etc. both are used pretty much interchangeably in day-to-day conversations.
Since my question has to do with the legal difference, I think we can throw out "day-to-day-conversation" conventions right away. :cool:
Quote from: Martinus on January 24, 2010, 10:28:29 AM
Besides, if one was to be petty and annoyingly nitpicky, then neither "changing your sex" nor "changing your gender" works in the legal context. What changes is the way the law recognizes your gender and/or sex, but neither your biological sex nor your gender identity is affected by this. You could say that the legal process is to align the official recognition with your gender rather than your sex.
Well, I will take your word, as that of an expert, on what it is to be petty and nitpicky, but since my question was about "legally changing one's gender" or sex, or whatever, I think I have your nitpicky distinction covered. Garbo covered the non-legal angle many posts ago.
Until we figure out a way to change genetics, legal sex will always be (throwing out the outliers) XX or XY.
Legal gender can be whatever the fuck society wants to decided it might be - number, name, role, duties, whatever.
Anyway, people who get sex change operations, get their birth certificate, passport, etc changed to female, apparently can't join the US military. In the UK the military will pay for the surgery :lol:
Quote from: DisturbedPervert on January 24, 2010, 01:31:30 PM
Anyway, people who get sex change operations, get their birth certificate, passport, etc changed to female, apparently can't join the US military. In the UK the military will pay for the surgery :lol:
Why the :lol: face?
Quote from: PDH on January 24, 2010, 01:10:42 PM
Until we figure out a way to change genetics, legal sex will always be (throwing out the outliers) XX or XY.
Legal gender can be whatever the fuck society wants to decided it might be - number, name, role, duties, whatever.
Not sure we have the same concept of "legal" here. I am talking about "according to the law."
For instance, can a person who has undergone a "sex change operation" be banned from schools that allow only women, or from the women's sports teams of any school? Does such a person, when participating in sports, count as a man or a woman for the purposes of Title IX?
These are real-life legal kinds of situations, and I have no idea what the answer is. I am confused as to what you are basing your definitions of "legal sex" and "legal gender" on. Not syaing you are wrong, just saying that you need to document your assertions a little bit. You answer to "what does the law say" with regard to gender, "whatever the fuck society wants to decide" seems particularly vague.
Quote from: DisturbedPervert on January 24, 2010, 01:31:30 PM
Anyway, people who get sex change operations, get their birth certificate, passport, etc changed to female, apparently can't join the US military. In the UK the military will pay for the surgery :lol:
But can they serve in the British forces after the change?
Quote from: grumbler on January 24, 2010, 03:42:38 PM
Not sure we have the same concept of "legal" here. I am talking about "according to the law."
It appears to be case by case. Federal prisons assign pre-op transsexuals according to their birth sex, and post-op according to their operative sex. The Social Security Administration will amend its records upon a showing of sex-reassignment surgery, and some states will reissue birth certificates. On the other hand, a transsexual can't get legally married in Kansas except with someone opposite to their birth sex.
Take a look at http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=4682038568110825067&q=%22sex+change%22++&hl=en&as_sdt=2002&as_ylo=2000 and http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=14985365890168523124&q=%22sex+change%22++&hl=en&as_sdt=2002&as_ylo=2000
Quote from: ulmont on January 24, 2010, 03:58:17 PM
Quote from: grumbler on January 24, 2010, 03:42:38 PM
Not sure we have the same concept of "legal" here. I am talking about "according to the law."
It appears to be case by case. Federal prisons assign pre-op transsexuals according to their birth sex, and post-op according to their operative sex. The Social Security Administration will amend its records upon a showing of sex-reassignment surgery, and some states will reissue birth certificates. On the other hand, a transsexual can't get legally married in Kansas except with someone opposite to their birth sex.
Take a look at http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=4682038568110825067&q=%22sex+change%22++&hl=en&as_sdt=2002&as_ylo=2000 and http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=14985365890168523124&q=%22sex+change%22++&hl=en&as_sdt=2002&as_ylo=2000
Thanks. That first case in particular addressed a lot of my questions. The second was instructive mostly in terms of the impact of puritan language in a purportedly secular law.
Quote from: grumbler on January 24, 2010, 03:43:38 PM
Quote from: DisturbedPervert on January 24, 2010, 01:31:30 PM
Anyway, people who get sex change operations, get their birth certificate, passport, etc changed to female, apparently can't join the US military. In the UK the military will pay for the surgery :lol:
But can they serve in the British forces after the change?
http://www.army.mod.uk/join/terms/15703.aspx
In the UK the law is against gender discrimination (not sex discrimination) and transsexuals/transgender people count as a third gender who are equally protected. Though, legally, I believe their sex remains the same regardless of treatment.
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 24, 2010, 04:33:36 PM
In the UK the law is against gender discrimination (not sex discrimination) and transsexuals/transgender people count as a third gender who are equally protected. Though, legally, I believe their sex remains the same regardless of treatment.
What are the implications of the fact (if your belief is correct) that "legally... their sex remains the same regardless of treatment?" Is sex used, as far as you are aware, anywhere in the law that gender is not?
Quote from: grumbler on January 24, 2010, 05:02:28 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 24, 2010, 04:33:36 PM
In the UK the law is against gender discrimination (not sex discrimination) and transsexuals/transgender people count as a third gender who are equally protected. Though, legally, I believe their sex remains the same regardless of treatment.
What are the implications of the fact (if your belief is correct) that "legally... their sex remains the same regardless of treatment?" Is sex used, as far as you are aware, anywhere in the law that gender is not?
You've been very involved in this thread, Grumbler. Are you thinking of making the change?
Quote from: grumbler on January 24, 2010, 05:02:28 PM
What are the implications of the fact (if your belief is correct) that "legally... their sex remains the same regardless of treatment?" Is sex used, as far as you are aware, anywhere in the law that gender is not?
Sorry I'm out of date. We have a 'Gender Recognition Act' which allows people to, in effect, get a new birth certificate reflecting their new name and gender. But there's rules on who can apply for it. The certificate is apparently treated like it is in adoption, in a separate government registry so that only you have access to it, or people you give permission to (for example a doctor) or the police if you're being investigated. To the general public looking at the registry of births you will always have been whatever gender you transitioned into.
Edit: And if it happens and they're married then their marriage is automatically turned into a civil union.
Quote from: citizen k on January 24, 2010, 05:05:11 PM
You've been very involved in this thread, Grumbler. Are you thinking of making the change?
No, it just is a legal issue I have never thought about before, and is exactly the kind of "technological issue" for which the common law offers no help. It struck me that (as the Kansas marriage issue demonstrates) this is something that would have to be explicitly legislated, but I cannot imagine many legislators wanting to get in front on the issue.
So, I am curious as to actual status.
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 24, 2010, 05:18:59 PM
Sorry I'm out of date. We have a 'Gender Recognition Act' which allows people to, in effect, get a new birth certificate reflecting their new name and gender. But there's rules on who can apply for it. The certificate is apparently treated like it is in adoption, in a separate government registry so that only you have access to it, or people you give permission to (for example a doctor) or the police if you're being investigated. To the general public looking at the registry of births you will always have been whatever gender you transitioned into.
Edit: And if it happens and they're married then their marriage is automatically turned into a civil union.
Seems pretty comprehensive. Do you happen to know how old this legislation is?
Quote from: grumbler on January 24, 2010, 05:58:56 PM
Seems pretty comprehensive. Do you happen to know how old this legislation is?
2004.
Quote from: grumbler on January 24, 2010, 03:42:38 PM
These are real-life legal kinds of situations, and I have no idea what the answer is. I am confused as to what you are basing your definitions of "legal sex" and "legal gender" on. Not syaing you are wrong, just saying that you need to document your assertions a little bit. You answer to "what does the law say" with regard to gender, "whatever the fuck society wants to decide" seems particularly vague.
My totally non-legal but biological/anthropological point being that chromosomal sex differentiation is pretty basic, it ain't going away with some horomonal therapy. Society figures (again oversimplification but who cares) out gender roles (which not too oddly have a majority dual componant system) that allows variation within it.
Until we figure out how to change sex, gender changing is the best we can do.
Quote from: PDH on January 24, 2010, 06:49:26 PM
My totally non-legal but biological/anthropological point being that chromosomal sex differentiation is pretty basic, it ain't going away with some horomonal therapy. Society figures (again oversimplification but who cares) out gender roles (which not too oddly have a majority dual componant system) that allows variation within it.
Until we figure out how to change sex, gender changing is the best we can do.
I see. Agree, and made pretty much the same point earlier (as did garbon). In Britain, the answer is pretty clear, but in the US it is clear as mud (especially because it appears to be incrementally approached on the Federal elevel and on a state-by-state basis).
Quote from: DisturbedPervert on January 24, 2010, 01:31:30 PM
Anyway, people who get sex change operations, get their birth certificate, passport, etc changed to female, apparently can't join the US military. In the UK the military will pay for the surgery :lol:
Sounds like a good way for the gender-confused to get free surgery.....
Now that could make for a rather cool little comedy-drama movie.
Some effeminate man signs up for the army having heard of this free surgery thing. He gets sent off to Afghanistan where fun is had as he breaks a nail and the like. Perhaps he can meet some gruff working class private who hates his guts at first but over time a friendship develops and the main character realises what it means to be a man. To make it typical of cliched movie plots lets make the revelation happen just as he's on the operating table.
Quote from: grumbler on January 24, 2010, 05:57:27 PM
Quote from: citizen k on January 24, 2010, 05:05:11 PM
You've been very involved in this thread, Grumbler. Are you thinking of making the change?
No, it just is a legal issue I have never thought about before, and is exactly the kind of "technological issue" for which the common law offers no help... ...I cannot imagine many legislators wanting to get in front on the issue.
To be honest, I have trouble picturing most state legislators even being aware of the issue.
Heck, I have trouble picturing a lot of them being aware of most any technological issue.
Quote from: Tyr on January 24, 2010, 09:05:33 PM
Sounds like a good way for the gender-confused to get free surgery.....
Now that could make for a rather cool little comedy-drama movie.
Some effeminate man signs up for the army having heard of this free surgery thing. He gets sent off to Afghanistan where fun is had as he breaks a nail and the like. Perhaps he can meet some gruff working class private who hates his guts at first but over time a friendship develops and the main character realises what it means to be a man. To make it typical of cliched movie plots lets make the revelation happen just as he's on the operating table.
You should send a letter to the studios.
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 24, 2010, 05:18:59 PM
'Gender Recognition Act'
Good name that. As I said before, from a purely semantical point, you cannot have your "legal change of gender" - gender is what you identify as, essentially. You can however change the legal recognition of your gender identity.
For the record, the surgical procedure which is associated with gender identity issues is neither, technically, a "gender change" or a "sex change" either - it's essentially an attempt to bring your outward sexual appearance in line, as far as possible, with your gender.
Quote from: grumbler on January 24, 2010, 07:26:13 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on January 24, 2010, 05:41:36 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 24, 2010, 04:22:51 AM
Just ignore grumbler. He is playing his usual semantics game of sex != gender. :rolleyes:
I will have to admit this is pretty petty even for Grumbler.
Oh, Noes! The Raz-Marty dogpile is activated! :jaron:
All we need is Syt or grallon to join in to make it a Trifecta of dogpilers.
You can only dogpile a man when he's down. Good that we all know our places in life though.
Kinky.
Quote from: Martinus on January 25, 2010, 03:00:43 AM
For the record, the surgical procedure which is associated with gender identity issues is neither, technically, a "gender change" or a "sex change" either - it's essentially an attempt to bring your outward sexual appearance in line, as far as possible, with your gender.
Nor is the operation required for gender recognition in the UK, I believe we're one of the only countries without that requirement. A long-term (I think two years) history of gender dysmorphia (?) is what's required, not a surgical procedure.