Wow, that's just sad. :pinch:
http://www.slate.com/id/2241434/pagenum/all/#p2
QuoteThey Are So Not Ready for Some Football
The Supreme Court justices prove they know nothing whatsoever about the NFL.
By Josh Levin and Dahlia LithwickPosted Wednesday, Jan. 13, 2010, at 6:17 PM ET
By whatever metric you choose—TV ratings, revenues, opinion polls—pro football is America's most popular sport. While the NFL is king among those born since Super Bowl I, baseball still reigns at hangouts frequented by older, intellectual types: the Harvard faculty lounge, George Will's family room, and, this cold Wednesday morning, the U.S. Supreme Court. At oral argument in American Needle v. NFL, Justice Sonia Sotomayor—credited for ending the 1994-95 Major League Baseball strike—admits she doesn't "know enough about football" to conjure a reasonable hypothetical about an alternate, Saturday-only league. And Justice Stephen Breyer, who also confesses to "know baseball better," quickly abandons talk of the New England Patriots in favor of a discussion of the Yankees-Red Sox rivalry. After these displays of pigskin ignorance from the Washington Supremes' starting nine, it's not surprising to learn that the people least likely to express a preference for the NFL are those with postgraduate educations.
People who don't wear robes to their jobs will likely know that the NFL is an association of independently owned teams. The NFL, as a single entity, regulates things like the season's schedule, the rules of football, and team colors. And while the teams own the rights to their own intellectual property, since 1963 they have worked together to promote their products. For several decades American Needle Inc., a maker of headwear based out of Buffalo Grove, Ill., held a nonexclusive apparel license with NFL Properties. But in 2004 the NFL decided to solicit bids for an exclusive manufacturer and ultimately gave a 10-year license to Reebok. American Needle sued under the Sherman Act, claiming that the NFL violated federal antitrust laws by conspiring to give the licensing franchise to Reebok. This was unfair to Reebok's competitors and also to consumers.
If we promise you a wardrobe malfunction at halftime, will you stick with us through a saucy explanation of antitrust law? The Sherman Act doesn't allow companies to collude in ways that impair competition or harm consumers, but Supreme Court precedent holds that a parent company and its wholly owned subsidiary can't be said to have conspired. American Needle lost at the trial court and again at the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals, both of which determined that the 32 NFL teams can't conspire with one another to make an apparel deal because they are a single entity for antitrust purposes (in part because the teams can't really be independent entities considering they can't produce a game unless another team shows up on the field). The Supreme Court agreed to hear the case. Everyone is freaking out over the possibility they'll side with the NFL, which could potentially imperil free agency, emasculate players' unions, and drive up ticket prices, all of which could force Americans into watching Monday Night Curling.
This is one of those days in which the advocates seem to have forgotten that oral argument is not a contact sport. The justices' egos are built for croquet, not football. But whether it's Glen D. Nager (arguing on behalf of American Needle), who steps on Justice Stephen Breyer's words so many times that Breyer is forced to say, "I am asking a question here," or Gregg H. Levy (representing the NFL), who brazenly tells Justice Anthony Kennedy he "takes issue" with his hypothetical, neither lawyer seems to understand that arguing with the refs is never a winning strategy at the court.
When Nager rises to speak for American Needle, he quickly describes the NFL as "32 separately owned profit entities." Ruth Bader Ginsburg asks whether that means every single decision made by the NFL, about anything, could be a potential antitrust violation and subject to antitrust's so-called Rule of Reason analysis. Nager says yes, leading Kennedy to ask whether an NFL rule change that gives "the passer more protection" and hurts teams that prefer to run the ball would also be subject to Sherman Act scrutiny. Justice Samuel Alito, another baseball fan—his love for the game is so all-consuming that he gives lectures on 1922 baseball antitrust cases, by choice—asks whether two NFL teams might collude to play more than the 16 scheduled games.
Chief Justice Roberts chides Nager for continuing to assert that there is "obvious horizontal agreement between the teams," asking, "Isn't that the very question before the court?" Nager agrees—"You're exactly right," he says—at which point the chief, laughing, says, "Then you agree that you've been begging the question?"
Breyer, dreaming of the American League Championship Series, asks whether the 32 NFL teams are really competing against one another for fans given that, "I don't know a Red Sox fan who would take a Yankees T-shirt if you gave it away." When Nager suggests that 3-year-olds have somewhat less-ironclad rooting interests, Breyer retorts that they also have very small allowances. Then Scalia chides Breyer for asking questions that have nothing to do with whether this specific case needs to go back to the trial court. Breyer replies, "I'm not certain this is irrelevant, but given Justice Scalia's persuasive remark, I will withdraw my question."
Nager offers up a strange little touchdown dance toward the end of his presentation in which he says he knows the court is sensitive to the fact that the Rule of Reason is "not quite as well understood, and is an evolutionary doctrine, [although it is] perfectly well understood by me."
Justice John Paul Stevens, never one to throw a flag for unsportsmanlike conduct, suggests that since the league shares the apparel revenue equally among all 32 teams, they can't possibly be anti-competitive. "You are not competing among the members of the league," Stevens said. "You're competing in the market that includes all sports paraphernalia." He adds, "That's the end of the ball game." (Toward the end of the morning, Stevens makes a crack about "these players who make so much money." Is the 89-year-old taking a second look at a football career? After all, the NFL's 2009 rookie minimum of $310,000 is slightly higher than his annual salary of $208,100.)
The Obama administration sided in part with each party, suggesting that the 7th Circuit got it wrong; that the NFL is anti-competitive except when it isn't; and proposing a new, arguably more complicated test, for such complicated cases. Because all the sports talk was too exciting, Malcolm Stewart, arguing for the administration, turns the case into a fight about Dunder Mifflin, worrying to death a hypothetical scenario in which the NFL engages in anti-competitive paper-product practices.
Gregg Levy, the NFL's representative, faces a tough defensive line this morning. The pocket collapses on him after his claim that the 32 teams are "not independent sources of economic power, because none of them can produce the product of the venture on their own." Breyer asks what their ability to put on a game alone has to do with anything. "I thought we were talking about T-shirts and helmets. I thought it's the simplest thing in the world. You pick up the phone and say, Hello, Shanghai, do you have a helmet?"
Levy says that selling branded clothing is really just the NFL's way of putting flyers under windshields. The purpose of licensing apparel is to promote the game of football, he says, and fans in Redskins and Saints hats are walking billboards promoting the next Sunday's games. Scalia finds this whole premise preposterous: "The purpose is to make money. I don't think that they care whether the sale of the helmet or the T-shirt promotes the game."
Each of the 32 clubs is worthless apart from the NFL, Levy argues: The "trademarks don't have value independent of the game." He then gets to the NFL's fundamental purpose in pursuing this case. The question of how to deal with antitrust claims against sports leagues is "an area of the law that has been troubled for many years." Sotomayor, sussing out Levy's notion about how to untrouble the law, asks what, in his opinion, leagues could possibly do that would be subject to antitrust law. He explains that the line is between promotion and production of the game. "So ... you are seeking through this ruling what you haven't gotten from Congress: an absolute bar to an antitrust claim?" she asks.
Levy denies that's his game, but it seems clear that Sotomayor is right. The NFL—as well as the NBA and NHL, both of which filed amicus briefs in support of their football counterpart—wants what Major League Baseball has: a broad antitrust exemption. When Scalia asks whether it would be anti-competitive for teams to fix the prices at which franchises can be sold, Levy says probably not. That feeds into everyone's fears about what kind of nefarious schemes the NFL would concoct with a favorable ruling.
It's fairly clear that most of the justices would like to send this case back to the trial court for a fuller hearing. After further review, almost everybody suggests that one more rinse on the "reasonable" cycle in the lower courts would do wonders to clear up the precise issues in this case. The NFL, it seems, has found itself in the only place in the world where football can strike out.
Correction, Jan 14, 2010: The caption accompanying the photograph originally stated that it was a "referee's cap." Caps worn by referees are white, not black.
What a retarded article.
On a full reading, this is an interesting and complex legal question, and the article does a good coverage of the issues raised and arguments of the parties. Where it sins, it is at repackaging the contents of it by adding a "controversial" (and entirely irrelevant) headline, so that retarded idiots like Tim, who would have otherwise not understood a word of it, could post it on the net with a smiley.
Seedy already had started a thread on this case.
Quote from: dps on January 16, 2010, 05:36:54 AM
Seedy already had started a thread on this case.
Indeed. Seedy is to the NFL what Timmay is to space news. :)
What do you expect? Supreme Court Justices are old. Old people love baseball due to the fact that it used to be a popular sport, and it's extremely slow and boring, ensuring that they don't fall behind.
Quote from: Neil on January 16, 2010, 06:42:04 AM
What do you expect? Supreme Court Justices are old. Old people love baseball due to the fact that it used to be a popular sport, and it's extremely slow and boring, ensuring that they don't fall behind.
:rolleyes: Baseball is awesome
Quote from: Neil on January 16, 2010, 06:42:04 AM
Old people love baseball due to the fact that it used to be a popular sport, and it's extremely slow and boring, ensuring that they don't fall behind.
:yes:
Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 16, 2010, 07:29:43 AM
Quote from: Neil on January 16, 2010, 06:42:04 AM
What do you expect? Supreme Court Justices are old. Old people love baseball due to the fact that it used to be a popular sport, and it's extremely slow and boring, ensuring that they don't fall behind.
:rolleyes: Baseball is awesome
Baseball is about as awesome as raping livestock on television.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 16, 2010, 07:29:43 AM
Quote from: Neil on January 16, 2010, 06:42:04 AM
What do you expect? Supreme Court Justices are old. Old people love baseball due to the fact that it used to be a popular sport, and it's extremely slow and boring, ensuring that they don't fall behind.
:rolleyes: Baseball is awesome
Which is why no matter how hard they try, the Mexicanoid races can never really be part of the Great North American civilization.
:blink: Yet another quality comment from Scalia: "I don't think that they care whether the sale of the helmet or the T-shirt promotes the game." Apparently, he needs to go into the streets and talk to some "average fans" to find out whether they'll buy a Cowboys jersey when the store's out of Eagles jerseys.
They care that it promotes the game... for their chosen team.
Quote from: DontSayBanana on January 16, 2010, 08:37:41 AM
:blink: Yet another quality comment from Scalia: "I don't think that they care whether the sale of the helmet or the T-shirt promotes the game." Apparently, he needs to go into the streets and talk to some "average fans" to find out whether they'll buy a Cowboys jersey when the store's out of Eagles jerseys.
They care that it promotes the game... for their chosen team.
:blink: Yet another example of epic reading fail. "They" in Scalia's comment is the NFL, not the fans. The NFL doesn't care, Scalia says, whether the T-shirt sold Monday is one for the Monday Night Football teams that day or not, so long as they make the sale.
I think he is correct. Team apparel sales are not intended as advertising, no matter what the NFL says.
Quote from: grumbler on January 16, 2010, 09:10:54 AM
:blink: Yet another example of epic reading fail. "They" in Scalia's comment is the NFL, not the fans. The NFL doesn't care, Scalia says, whether the T-shirt sold Monday is one for the Monday Night Football teams that day or not, so long as they make the sale.
I think he is correct. Team apparel sales are not intended as advertising, no matter what the NFL says.
:blush: My bad. I would say, however, that the sales of the apparel are twofold. I'm sure they didn't
start as advertising, but by now, only a blind idiot would not be capitalizing on the advertising aspect. They're not advertising to the fans that purchase the apparel, but when a fan wears that apparel in a room filled with other people who may or may not have been planning on watching an upcoming game, it is advertising. Definitely not a primary purpose though; at best, it's a happy coincidence.
Quote from: Scipio on January 16, 2010, 07:37:16 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 16, 2010, 07:29:43 AM
Quote from: Neil on January 16, 2010, 06:42:04 AM
What do you expect? Supreme Court Justices are old. Old people love baseball due to the fact that it used to be a popular sport, and it's extremely slow and boring, ensuring that they don't fall behind.
:rolleyes: Baseball is awesome
Baseball is about as awesome as raping livestock on television.
I'm sorry, scip, but your local sports are never going to much national exposure.
Not sure why knowledge about sports would be prerequisite for a Judge position.
Quote from: Maximus on January 16, 2010, 01:23:06 PM
Not sure why knowledge about sports would be prerequisite for a Judge position.
This is America! :Embarrass:
from NPR:
QuoteIn the Supreme Court on Wednesday, American Needle's lawyer, Glen Nager, told the justices that the NFL shouldn't be able to circumvent the nation's antitrust laws that way. He said the NFL teams are separately owned and operated businesses, and that by construing the league as a single entity, the lower court had approved a merchandising monopoly for the NFL.
Several justices asked where to draw the line. After all, you need agreement on league rules and a schedule.
Justice Stephen Breyer, noting that he knows baseball better than football, questioned the premise of apparel competition. "You want the Red Sox to compete in selling T-shirts with the Yankees?" he asked. "I don't know a Red Sox fan who would take a Yankees sweatshirt if you gave it away."
Justice John Paul Stevens suggested that the real competition for apparel is between sports — football and basketball, for instance — not between teams.
But the questioning got even more intense when the NFL's lawyer, Gregg Levy, rose to argue.
He conceded that 32 teams used to individually license their own logos. But he maintained that the purpose of the NFL exclusive deal with Reebok was not to make money, but to promote the game of football.
Justice Antonin Scalia was disdainful.
"They don't care whether the sale of the T-shirt promotes the game," he said. "They sell it to make money."
Justice Sonia Sotomayor observed that if the aim is to make money — and she said she could well see that argument — then a league agreement to fix prices would be a violation of the antitrust laws.
Sotomayor prodded further, asking what decisions could sports teams make that "would be subject to antitrust scrutiny?"
Levy replied that "the NFL clubs are not separate sources of independent power. They are a unit ... a single entity."
So, pounced Sotomayor, "You are seeking, through this ruling, what you haven't gotten from Congress: an absolute bar to an antitrust claim."
Justice Breyer analogized the situation this way: A joint venture to play football is one thing; a joint NFL venture to build houses is another.
As Chief Justice John Roberts observed, "The other side says selling logos is closer to selling houses than it is to playing football." So, Roberts said, if there is a factual dispute about whether a particular activity of the league is designed to promote the game or is designed simply to make money, then that is the sort of thing that should go to trial.
Justice Scalia then aimed his question at the NFL's assertion that trademarks and logos have no value apart from the game. "I guess you could say the same thing for each of the 32 franchises," Scalia said. "They are worthless if the NFL disappears. So does that mean they can agree to fix the price at which their franchises will be sold?"
Lawyer Levy didn't directly answer that question but contended that the NFL is much like a law firm that sets the prices charged by its lawyers.
Quote from: Scipio on January 16, 2010, 07:37:16 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 16, 2010, 07:29:43 AM
Quote from: Neil on January 16, 2010, 06:42:04 AM
What do you expect? Supreme Court Justices are old. Old people love baseball due to the fact that it used to be a popular sport, and it's extremely slow and boring, ensuring that they don't fall behind.
:rolleyes: Baseball is awesome
Baseball is about as awesome as raping livestock on television.
What the fuck man? You were all talking to me about baseball when Mississippi was playing Texas in the NCAA a few years back. Does this mean that you, in fact, like raping livestock or you are trying to misrepresent yourself to impress Neil and Cal? Poser.
Quote from: Neil on January 16, 2010, 06:42:04 AM
What do you expect? Supreme Court Justices are old. Old people love baseball due to the fact that it used to be a popular sport, and it's extremely slow and boring, ensuring that they don't fall behind.
Old people are the only ones who make enough money to attend football games. Football is definitely becoming an old persons sport....I mean unless seeing all your sports on TV is good enough for you but then you live in Canada where there are no real sports in driving distance.
Quote from: Valmy on January 16, 2010, 03:32:51 PM
Old people are the only ones who make enough money to attend football games.
Poor people are morally reprehensible.
Quote from: Scipio on January 16, 2010, 07:37:16 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 16, 2010, 07:29:43 AM
Quote from: Neil on January 16, 2010, 06:42:04 AM
What do you expect? Supreme Court Justices are old. Old people love baseball due to the fact that it used to be a popular sport, and it's extremely slow and boring, ensuring that they don't fall behind.
:rolleyes: Baseball is awesome
Baseball is about as awesome as raping livestock on television.
Don't ge The Brain all excited.
Quote from: Valmy on January 16, 2010, 03:32:51 PM
but then you live in Canada where there are no real sports in driving distance.
Unless you're in the 00.1% of the population north of 60 degrees latitude, if you live in Canada you not only live within driving distance of the only sport worth mentioning (3 down football) it's highly affordable to boot. :P
Quote from: Maximus on January 16, 2010, 01:23:06 PM
Not sure why knowledge about sports would be prerequisite for a Judge position.
Nothing to do with being a judge, just being social connected to the rest of society.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 17, 2010, 02:08:29 AM
Quote from: Maximus on January 16, 2010, 01:23:06 PM
Not sure why knowledge about sports would be prerequisite for a Judge position.
Nothing to do with being a judge, just being social connected to the rest of society.
Not "the rest of the society" but "the lows of the society". The claim that the judicial elite must follow the pastimes of the working classes or be "disconnected from the society" is preposterous.
Quote from: Martinus on January 17, 2010, 04:51:52 AM
Not "the rest of the society" but "the lows of the society".
If you say that professional sports is an interest of "the lows of society" you obviously haven't looked at ticket prices for major sporting events or cable packages recently.
Quote from: Syt on January 17, 2010, 04:55:29 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 17, 2010, 04:51:52 AM
Not "the rest of the society" but "the lows of the society".
If you say that professional sports is an interest of "the lows of society" you obviously haven't looked at ticket prices for major sporting events or cable packages recently.
No, I meant football. Elites watch baseball. It's like in Europe, where the rabble watches soccer.
Tickets to a baseball game are the cheapest of the 4 major American professional sports.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 17, 2010, 05:16:09 AM
Tickets to a baseball game are the cheapest of the 4 major American professional sports.
So? It's not about prices of tickets, it's about popularity among various demographics. I bet in the UK tickets to major soccer matches are also more expensive than tickets to rugby matches.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 17, 2010, 05:16:09 AM
Tickets to a baseball game are the cheapest of the 4 major American professional sports.
Considering they have 162 games (and plenty on weekday mornings/afternoons) it's not that surprising.
Quote from: Martinus on January 17, 2010, 05:13:19 AM
No, I meant football. Elites watch baseball. It's like in Europe, where the rabble watches soccer.
:lol: There's no correlation in the US between class and sports preference. As far as baseball goes, Fenway park during a Red Sox game is loaded with more lowlife drunks than you can possibly imagine.
Quote from: Martinus on January 17, 2010, 05:13:19 AMNo, I meant football. Elites watch baseball. It's like in Europe, where the rabble watches soccer.
So that's why all the new stadiums have lots and lots of VIP boxes for corporate customers and the like.
Quote from: Caliga on January 17, 2010, 06:42:58 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 17, 2010, 05:13:19 AM
No, I meant football. Elites watch baseball. It's like in Europe, where the rabble watches soccer.
:lol: There's no correlation in the US between class and sports preference. As far as baseball goes, Fenway park during a Red Sox game is loaded with more lowlife drunks than you can possibly imagine.
Certainly not worse than Citizens Banks Park. :P
Quote from: Syt on January 17, 2010, 06:17:20 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 17, 2010, 05:16:09 AM
Tickets to a baseball game are the cheapest of the 4 major American professional sports.
Considering they have 162 games (and plenty on weekday mornings/afternoons) it's not that surprising.
Only one game in the entire league is played in the morning, and they only start it early so that spectators can catch the end of the Boston Marathon after the game.
Lol, Mart's analysis of American sports.
Quote from: Ed Anger on January 17, 2010, 11:41:27 AM
Lol, Mart's analysis of American sports.
He clearly doesn't watch sports movies.
Quote from: Ed Anger on January 17, 2010, 11:41:27 AM
Lol, Mart's analysis of American sports.
It is as accurate as any of his legal or moral analyses. :cool: