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General Category => Off the Record => Topic started by: Camerus on December 28, 2009, 08:48:39 AM

Title: Cao Cao's Tomb Discovered!
Post by: Camerus on December 28, 2009, 08:48:39 AM
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gyXIav8ZG7ZWZdhUP6GIFOh-WBNA (http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gyXIav8ZG7ZWZdhUP6GIFOh-WBNA)

QuoteChina discovers tomb of ancient legendary ruler

(AFP) – 8 hours ago

BEIJING — Chinese archaeologists believe they have found a nearly 1,800-year-old tomb belonging to the legendary ruler Cao Cao, who was known as a cruel tyrant but also a cunning military strategist and poet.

The tomb is located in central Henan province, not far from the Yellow River and near the city of Anyang, where Cao Cao ruled the Kingdom of Wei from 208 to 220, when he died at age 65, the state China Daily reported Monday.

"Excavation has been going on for nearly one year, and we'll come up with further evidence," the paper quoted Guan Qiang of the State Administration of Cultural Heritage as saying.

"But even based on what we've got, we can tell for sure that the mausoleum belongs to Cao Cao."

Numerous articles found in the tomb are inscribed as "personal belongings frequently used by the King Wu of Wei," Cao Cao's posthumous title, it said.

Archaeologists have found the remains of three people in the tomb -- a male around 60 years of age, believed to be Cao Cao, a female of about 50 and a second woman between 20 and 25, thought to be the king's wife and escort.

The tomb was discovered about a year ago, but only became known to authorities after stone tablets carrying inscriptions of "King Wu of Wei" were seized from alleged tomb raiders, the report said.

So far archaeologists have recovered over 250 relics from the tomb which covers an area of 740 square metres (8,000 square feet), an area befitting a burial plot for someone of Cao Cao's stature, it said.

During his rise to power during the waning years of the Han Dynasty, Cao Cao became known as a clever yet cruel tyrant who was also a military genius.

His exploits form an important aspect of the 14th century historical novel "Romance of the Three Kingdoms," known as one of China's greatest literary works and a publication that remains widely read today.

Cao Cao remains a mainstay in Chinese culture and is a frequent character in Peking opera and historical theatre. He was most recently portrayed in director John Woo's blockbusters "Red Cliff" and "Red Cliff 2".

His poems continue to be taught in schools throughout China.
Title: Re: Cao Cao's Tomb Discovered!
Post by: Josquius on December 28, 2009, 08:51:16 AM
I saw this on the news yesterday and thought it rather cool and geekish that we had a news announcer speaking of Romance of the Three Kingdoms- the only thing it being known for over here of course being Dynasty Warriors.
I must bitch about Chinese language here though; on the news they were pronouncing it Sow Sow. I always thought it was Cow Cow.
Title: Re: Cao Cao's Tomb Discovered!
Post by: Camerus on December 28, 2009, 08:56:17 AM
It's actually more similar to "Tsao Tsao", with the "ts" being pronounced somewhat like the "z" in "pizza".   :nerd:
Title: Re: Cao Cao's Tomb Discovered!
Post by: The Brain on December 28, 2009, 08:58:44 AM
So much for eternal rest.
Title: Re: Cao Cao's Tomb Discovered!
Post by: Neil on December 28, 2009, 09:04:46 AM
Quote from: The Brain on December 28, 2009, 08:58:44 AM
So much for eternal rest.
That's what happens when you get a big tomb built.  If one really wants eternal rest, one should be buried in a cloth sack out in a field somewhere.  Or be buried at sea.
Title: Re: Cao Cao's Tomb Discovered!
Post by: Josephus on December 28, 2009, 09:23:03 AM
Doesn't he play for Real Madrid? :hmm:
Title: Re: Cao Cao's Tomb Discovered!
Post by: KRonn on December 28, 2009, 09:40:36 AM
Archaeologists have found the remains of three people in the tomb -- a male around 60 years of age, believed to be Cao Cao, a female of about 50 and a second woman between 20 and 25, thought to be the king's wife and escort.
Interesting find. Though it has to be lousy being close to a ruler like this, since I'd assume his wife and escort were killed and buried with him? Or died later, maybe, and were buried there, but I assume the former.
Title: Re: Cao Cao's Tomb Discovered!
Post by: Viking on December 28, 2009, 09:42:37 AM
is Red Cliff 2 out?

Edit: sheeeit, apparently it is... I'm obviously not as clued up as I need to be about Chinese Historical Action Movies.
Title: Re: Cao Cao's Tomb Discovered!
Post by: The Brain on December 28, 2009, 09:46:23 AM
Quote from: Neil on December 28, 2009, 09:04:46 AM
Quote from: The Brain on December 28, 2009, 08:58:44 AM
So much for eternal rest.
That's what happens when you get a big tomb built.  If one really wants eternal rest, one should be buried in a cloth sack out in a field somewhere.  Or be buried at sea.

Thankfully having a huge tomb is more important than eternal rest.
Title: Re: Cao Cao's Tomb Discovered!
Post by: DontSayBanana on December 28, 2009, 09:56:32 AM
Quote from: The Brain on December 28, 2009, 09:46:23 AM
Thankfully having a huge tomb is more important than eternal rest.

That's true.  How's the amusement park coming, BTW?
Title: Re: Cao Cao's Tomb Discovered!
Post by: Martinus on December 28, 2009, 10:02:08 AM
The only way I know who Cao Cao was is from KOEI's "Romance of Three Kingdoms".  :homestar:
Title: Re: Cao Cao's Tomb Discovered!
Post by: The Brain on December 28, 2009, 10:15:57 AM
Quote from: DontSayBanana on December 28, 2009, 09:56:32 AM
Quote from: The Brain on December 28, 2009, 09:46:23 AM
Thankfully having a huge tomb is more important than eternal rest.

That's true.  How's the amusement park coming, BTW?

I seem to suffer constant shortage of funds.
Title: Re: Cao Cao's Tomb Discovered!
Post by: Fate on December 28, 2009, 10:27:39 AM
Quote from: Viking on December 28, 2009, 09:42:37 AM
is Red Cliff 2 out?

Edit: sheeeit, apparently it is... I'm obviously not as clued up as I need to be about Chinese Historical Action Movies.

Aye... and a heavily cut version that combines the first and second movies into ~2 hours is circulating around US art house theaters.
Title: Re: Cao Cao's Tomb Discovered!
Post by: MadImmortalMan on December 28, 2009, 12:34:38 PM
I wonder if the younger chick is one of the Qiao sisters. The age seems off though. He said he wanted to retire and spend the rest of his old age with them, IIRC. I'd love to see the goodies they get out of the tomb. Maybe a little bronze bird will be in there. Wouldn't that be something.  :P
Title: Re: Cao Cao's Tomb Discovered!
Post by: Josquius on December 28, 2009, 12:50:27 PM
Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on December 28, 2009, 08:56:17 AM
It's actually more similar to "Tsao Tsao", with the "ts" being pronounced somewhat like the "z" in "pizza".   :nerd:
Yeah, but sow matches with cow better :p
Checking up in Dynasty Warrios they say cow too. I wonder if thats the Japanese way or just a dumb translation.
Title: Re: Cao Cao's Tomb Discovered!
Post by: Drakken on December 28, 2009, 12:51:34 PM
Quote from: Tyr on December 28, 2009, 08:51:16 AM
I saw this on the news yesterday and thought it rather cool and geekish that we had a news announcer speaking of Romance of the Three Kingdoms- the only thing it being known for over here of course being Dynasty Warriors.
I must bitch about Chinese language here though; on the news they were pronouncing it Sow Sow. I always thought it was Cow Cow.

Only ignorant Western KOEI players pronounce it Cow Cow, to the annoyance of Chinese speakers. In fact, it's Tsao Tsao.

Worse is Cao Pi, or Cow Pee (should be Tsao Pei).
Title: Re: Cao Cao's Tomb Discovered!
Post by: Habbaku on December 28, 2009, 01:15:14 PM
Is Cow Pie or Cow Pee worse?
Title: Re: Cao Cao's Tomb Discovered!
Post by: Razgovory on December 28, 2009, 01:19:09 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on December 28, 2009, 01:15:14 PM
Is Cow Pie or Cow Pee worse?

Cow Pie.  You step in Cow Pee and it doesn't stick to your shoe as much.
Title: Re: Cao Cao's Tomb Discovered!
Post by: Josquius on December 28, 2009, 01:23:10 PM
Quote from: Drakken on December 28, 2009, 12:51:34 PM
Only ignorant Western KOEI players pronounce it Cow Cow, to the annoyance of Chinese speakers. In fact, it's Tsao Tsao.

Worse is Cao Pi, or Cow Pee (should be Tsao Pei).

Why do Koei do Cow though? Just idiocy or is it the Japanese way- researching myself it seems the Cantonese say something totally different to Tsao.
Chinese spelling, bah. If its not righting chee qi its ts as c :unsure:
Title: Re: Cao Cao's Tomb Discovered!
Post by: DisturbedPervert on December 28, 2009, 01:26:30 PM
Quote from: Drakken on December 28, 2009, 12:51:34 PM
Only ignorant Western KOEI players pronounce it Cow Cow, to the annoyance of Chinese speakers. In fact, it's Tsao Tsao.

Worse is Cao Pi, or Cow Pee (should be Tsao Pei).

If they care how foreigners pronounce it when reading the romanization, they should use a transliteration system that allows others to read it properly.  You can't blame people for seeing Cáo Cāo and not saying Tsao Tsao.
Title: Re: Cao Cao's Tomb Discovered!
Post by: DisturbedPervert on December 28, 2009, 01:29:08 PM
Quote from: Tyr on December 28, 2009, 01:23:10 PM
Why do Koei do Cow though?

Because the name written in Pinyin is Cáo Cāo
Title: Re: Cao Cao's Tomb Discovered!
Post by: MadImmortalMan on December 28, 2009, 01:31:19 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njtP5fcBhaE


BBC reporters pronouncing it wrong, but hey.
Title: Re: Cao Cao's Tomb Discovered!
Post by: Razgovory on December 28, 2009, 01:36:16 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on December 28, 2009, 01:31:19 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njtP5fcBhaE


BBC reporters pronouncing it wrong, but hey.

Actually the pronounce it correctly, the Chinese pronounce it wrong.  If the Chinese won the Opium wars it would be the other way around.
Title: Re: Cao Cao's Tomb Discovered!
Post by: Josquius on December 28, 2009, 01:37:11 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on December 28, 2009, 01:31:19 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njtP5fcBhaE


BBC reporters pronouncing it wrong, but hey.
How is that wrong? Its Tsao.
Title: Re: Cao Cao's Tomb Discovered!
Post by: The Brain on December 28, 2009, 01:38:15 PM
Daddy wouldn't buy me a Cao Cao. :(
Title: Re: Cao Cao's Tomb Discovered!
Post by: Syt on December 28, 2009, 01:45:17 PM
Quote from: The Brain on December 28, 2009, 01:38:15 PM
Daddy wouldn't buy me a Cao Cao. :(

Kakao! :P
Title: Re: Cao Cao's Tomb Discovered!
Post by: MadImmortalMan on December 28, 2009, 01:49:37 PM
Quote from: Tyr on December 28, 2009, 01:37:11 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on December 28, 2009, 01:31:19 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njtP5fcBhaE


BBC reporters pronouncing it wrong, but hey.
How is that wrong? Its Tsao.

Is it right? I watched with the sound off, but the comments said it was wrong. Maybe that was Raz.
Title: Re: Cao Cao's Tomb Discovered!
Post by: Jacob on December 28, 2009, 02:44:11 PM
Quote from: Tyr on December 28, 2009, 08:51:16 AMI must bitch about Chinese language here though; on the news they were pronouncing it Sow Sow. I always thought it was Cow Cow.

Pinyin, the currently used for rendering Chinese into the Roman alphabet, was apparently developed with Russian sensibilities.  In English, the closest spelling would probably be Tsao Tsao.
Title: Re: Cao Cao's Tomb Discovered!
Post by: Camerus on December 28, 2009, 06:25:11 PM
Quote from: Drakken on December 28, 2009, 12:51:34 PM
Quote from: Tyr on December 28, 2009, 08:51:16 AM
I saw this on the news yesterday and thought it rather cool and geekish that we had a news announcer speaking of Romance of the Three Kingdoms- the only thing it being known for over here of course being Dynasty Warriors.
I must bitch about Chinese language here though; on the news they were pronouncing it Sow Sow. I always thought it was Cow Cow.

Only ignorant Western KOEI players pronounce it Cow Cow, to the annoyance of Chinese speakers. In fact, it's Tsao Tsao.

Worse is Cao Pi, or Cow Pee (should be Tsao Pei).

No, Pi  (pronounced "Pee") is correct.
Title: Re: Cao Cao's Tomb Discovered!
Post by: Camerus on December 28, 2009, 06:30:54 PM
Anyway, once you get used to pinyin, it turns out to be quite an efficient and easy-to-read Romanization of the language, and much better than Wide-Giles.

But of course like any language, certain letter combinations might have different sounds than in English.  Thus in German for example, "St" at the start of a word such as "Stadt" in German produces a sound like "Shtadt" in English, etc.  It's the same with pinyin.
Title: Re: Cao Cao's Tomb Discovered!
Post by: Ed Anger on December 28, 2009, 06:41:04 PM
Hu's on first.
Title: Re: Cao Cao's Tomb Discovered!
Post by: Habbaku on December 28, 2009, 06:48:15 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on December 28, 2009, 06:41:04 PM
Hu's on first.

Wu, that's a good Wan.
Title: Re: Cao Cao's Tomb Discovered!
Post by: The Brain on December 28, 2009, 06:50:39 PM
Two wongs don't make a white.
Title: Re: Cao Cao's Tomb Discovered!
Post by: Drakken on December 28, 2009, 09:02:40 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on December 28, 2009, 06:41:04 PM
Hu's on first.

I Dong give a Dang.
Title: Re: Cao Cao's Tomb Discovered!
Post by: Darth Wagtaros on December 28, 2009, 09:56:03 PM
Quote from: Martinus on December 28, 2009, 10:02:08 AM
The only way I know who Cao Cao was is from KOEI's "Romance of Three Kingdoms".  :homestar:
That needs updating.
Title: Re: Cao Cao's Tomb Discovered!
Post by: Tonitrus on December 28, 2009, 11:50:11 PM
Quote from: Jacob on December 28, 2009, 02:44:11 PM
Pinyin, the currently used for rendering Chinese into the Roman alphabet, was apparently developed with Russian sensibilities.  In English, the closest spelling would probably be Tsao Tsao.

Which is funny to me, as the Chinese said a while back that we need to say "Beijing" for the capital city, while the Russians still call it "Peking".
Title: Re: Cao Cao's Tomb Discovered!
Post by: HisMajestyBOB on December 29, 2009, 12:40:25 AM
Quote from: Tonitrus on December 28, 2009, 11:50:11 PM
Quote from: Jacob on December 28, 2009, 02:44:11 PM
Pinyin, the currently used for rendering Chinese into the Roman alphabet, was apparently developed with Russian sensibilities.  In English, the closest spelling would probably be Tsao Tsao.

Which is funny to me, as the Chinese said a while back that we need to say "Beijing" for the capital city, while the Russians still call it "Peking".

I prefer "New Tokyo"
Title: Re: Cao Cao's Tomb Discovered!
Post by: Josquius on December 29, 2009, 09:49:05 AM
Quote from: Jacob on December 28, 2009, 02:44:11 PM
Quote from: Tyr on December 28, 2009, 08:51:16 AMI must bitch about Chinese language here though; on the news they were pronouncing it Sow Sow. I always thought it was Cow Cow.

Pinyin, the currently used for rendering Chinese into the Roman alphabet, was apparently developed with Russian sensibilities.  In English, the closest spelling would probably be Tsao Tsao.
Aha, that explains things a bit - but still, making their language more understandable by going through a language just as alien to them as ours and quite alien to us? Illogical.

Doesn't explain what Koei was playing at though
Title: Re: Cao Cao's Tomb Discovered!
Post by: The Larch on December 29, 2009, 11:17:44 AM
Quote from: Tyr on December 29, 2009, 09:49:05 AM
Quote from: Jacob on December 28, 2009, 02:44:11 PM
Quote from: Tyr on December 28, 2009, 08:51:16 AMI must bitch about Chinese language here though; on the news they were pronouncing it Sow Sow. I always thought it was Cow Cow.

Pinyin, the currently used for rendering Chinese into the Roman alphabet, was apparently developed with Russian sensibilities.  In English, the closest spelling would probably be Tsao Tsao.
Aha, that explains things a bit - but still, making their language more understandable by going through a language just as alien to them as ours and quite alien to us? Illogical.

Doesn't explain what Koei was playing at though

There you go:

QuoteThe dubbed English voice from the second installment till the fifth incorrectly pronounces Cao Cao's name as "Cow Cow" and of those from the Cao clan as well. The correct pronunciation, according to Wades-Giles romanization, is phonetically similar to "Tsao Tsao", as used in the Warriors Orochi series. The correct pronunciation is used in Dynasty Warriors 6.
Title: Re: Cao Cao's Tomb Discovered!
Post by: Caliga on December 29, 2009, 11:22:23 AM
When will they find Gao Qiu's tomb?  :)
Title: Re: Cao Cao's Tomb Discovered!
Post by: Ed Anger on December 29, 2009, 11:26:16 AM
Who is buried in Grant's tomb?
Title: Re: Cao Cao's Tomb Discovered!
Post by: MadImmortalMan on December 29, 2009, 12:23:49 PM
Quote from: Caliga on December 29, 2009, 11:22:23 AM
When will they find Gao Qiu's tomb?  :)

I want to see Zhuge Liang's. It says they buried him sitting upright in a chair.
Title: Re: Cao Cao's Tomb Discovered!
Post by: Martim Silva on December 29, 2009, 07:10:02 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on December 28, 2009, 12:34:38 PM
I wonder if the younger chick is one of the Qiao sisters. The age seems off though. He said he wanted to retire and spend the rest of his old age with them, IIRC. I'd love to see the goodies they get out of the tomb. Maybe a little bronze bird will be in there. Wouldn't that be something.  :P

That's more an idea created by the book. IRL, Cao Cao showed little interest for the sisters. Besides, Xiao Qiao's tomb has already been found.

The older woman could be Bian, buried later on after she died. She's the one Cao Cao would have wanted with him after death. The younger girl could be a servant of her, I suppose.

Burying people alive with their rulers, while practised, was not well seen in Cao Cao's days. Sun Quan did that with the concubine of one of his men, and he got badmouthed for it, even at the time.

Besides, Cao Cao cared too much about his women to do that - his will provides specifically for each one, so that excludes the possibility that he wanted or concieved any of them being buried alive with him. Also, he insisted that he wanted a very simple burial, without any fancy stuff.

Quote from: Tyr
Why do Koei do Cow though? Just idiocy or is it the Japanese way- researching myself it seems the Cantonese say something totally different to Tsao.

It's the translators. They used the offical romanization.

The Japanese themselves say the names as they interpret the ideograms, and the result is a total fuck up. Cao Cao is known as 'Moutoku Sousou' in Japan.

The others get similar treatment, to the point you have no idea whatsoever about who they are talking about.
Title: Re: Cao Cao's Tomb Discovered!
Post by: Camerus on December 29, 2009, 07:11:19 PM
Quote from: Tyr on December 29, 2009, 09:49:05 AM

Aha, that explains things a bit - but still, making their language more understandable by going through a language just as alien to them as ours and quite alien to us? Illogical.

Doesn't explain what Koei was playing at though

Pinyin is the "official" way of rendering Chinese into English now; virtually nobody - including historians of China, political scientists, etc. - uses Wade-Giles anymore.  Aside from being less accurate than pinyin, W-G also has some unpleasant connotations.  That explains why Koei would also use pinyin.
Title: Re: Cao Cao's Tomb Discovered!
Post by: Viking on December 29, 2009, 07:41:37 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on December 29, 2009, 11:26:16 AM
Who is buried in Grant's tomb?

Lettowite hopes and dreams.
Title: Re: Cao Cao's Tomb Discovered!
Post by: Jacob on December 30, 2009, 12:57:16 AM
Quote from: Martim Silva on December 29, 2009, 07:10:02 PMThe Japanese themselves say the names as they interpret the ideograms, and the result is a total fuck up. Cao Cao is known as 'Moutoku Sousou' in Japan.

Interesting, funny and not surprising.