This is retarded, millions more Japanese would have died if the bombs hadn't been dropped, the majority of which would have been civilians.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/1207/p06s19-woeu.html
Quote
Is Hiroshima memorial a fair legacy for Harry Truman?
In Potsdam, Germany, debate rises over a memorial that marks President Harry Truman's 1945 decision to drop an atomic bomb on Hiroshima, Japan.
By Robert Marquand | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor
from the December 7, 2009 edition
Potsdam, Germany - Handsome villas on Karl Marx street here look out on the bending Griebnitzsee River. In one villa, occupied by Harry Truman in July 1945, history itself would fatefully bend.
President Truman called it "the little White House" – and it was here, while he was in Berlin for the Potsdam Conference, that word arrived of the first atom bomb test in New Mexico July 14. With strong urging from Winston Churchill, the Americans sent a letter to Japan, asking for surrender, or a "terrible destruction." The reply: mokusatsu – roughly, forget it.
Thus a new history began, a cold-war era stamped with a mushroom cloud.
During the cold war, Truman's villa was a propaganda tool for Soviet East Germany – labeled "nightmare house" for the American imperialists' decision to drop the atomic bomb. The Berlin Wall ran through its back garden, adding symbolic punch. Yet when the wall fell, the East German view of the home and its meaning did not.
The Potsdam city government, former communists, tried to make it a Hiroshima memorial. American expats and diplomats lobbied against a depiction of Truman, who initiated the Marshall plan and rebuilt Europe, as someone whose central legacy is destroying two Japanese cities and their inhabitants.
The place was sold to a think tank for the Free Democrats, the liberal party now in a ruling coalition with German Chancellor Angela Merkel. The dispute seemed to fade.
Truman Place or Hiroshima Place?
Yet not entirely. In 2006 a small triangle of turf at an intersection directly opposite the Truman house – home to two trees – was nearly named "Trumanplatz" (Truman Place) But Potsdam officials intervened, calling it instead "Hiroshimaplatz."
Next a Hiroshima memorial, to be privately funded, was approved; the project has a website with lecture notices and bank account numbers for donations. Text for the not-yet-built memorial is now tacked to a leaning 1-by-4-foot wooden slat, on site; it reads in part:
"[F]rom 17 July to 2 August the US President Harry S. Truman lived in the villa opposite. During this period the order to drop the Atomic Bomb was given ... by the president. Its destructive power killed hundreds of thousands and brought terrible suffering to the people."
Sources at the "Hiroshima Platz Potsdam" say the group wants to finish the memorial for a "Mayors for Peace" conference next year. They've raised $15,000 of $45,000, with another $15,000 pledged from Japan – to keep "the memory of the victims of Hiroshima and Nagasaki alive," as the website states.
Expat Robert Mackay, founder of Friends of Truman House, says the memorial is a "bad idea." He calls it provocative, a distortion of Truman and the history of the decision to drop the bomb, and possibly offensive to publics in East Asia and other places liberated from Japanese occupation when the war ended shortly after the Nagasaki atomic blast.
"It's ironic," says Mr. Mackay, former head of the US Chamber of Commerce in Berlin. "Truman ordered the Berlin airlift, he supported the German Constitution, he brought the UN to the US. It would be a very different Germany in 1949 without his leadership. Usually George Marshall gets credit for rebuilding. But Truman is key; he withstood efforts in the State Department to turn Germany into an agrarian society."
Yet some local German advocates say the memorial fits. A German scholar who works near the site argues that "You make historic decisions and they have consequences. That's life. You live with it. I'm not sympathetic with the American critics. This is where the bomb decision was made; it's an East German context."
No memorial for Stalin's victims?
Mackay counters by saying that Joseph Stalin also lived a few houses away during the Potsdam Conference. But the city has not remembered millions of victims of Stalin's Gulag. (The conference divided Europe into zones of Allied responsibility after the war, and arguably initiated the cold war.) "There is no rush to put a plaque up at Stalin's villa, protesting that he killed 30 million kulaks. But there is approval for an 'anti-Truman memorial,'" Mackay says.
During an earlier debate, Friends of Truman House cited historians that said that once the atomic test at Alamagordo, N.M., was successful, it was unlikely anything would stop the Allied use of a weapon to end the Pacific war against a state that vowed never to quit. Had the US public discovered a war-ending weapon that Truman did not use, his presidency would have ended, is another argument posed. (The issue is not one of historical consensus.)
At Potsdam, Truman cautiously told Stalin about the weapon, without giving many details. Stalin feigned ignorance. What was not known until the 1990s was that Stalin was aware of the bomb through a German-born scientist named Klaus Fuchs, who worked at Los Alamos, N.M., and fed information to a Soviet spy network. The Friends say the decision to drop the bomb was conditional – that Japan was given the option to surrender (though the offer did not describe the new bomb).
The 'most terrible bomb'
The issue has arisen amid a significant popular spike in stature of Truman himself during the 1990s, following the Pultizer Prize-winning biography by David McCullough. In his day, and after, Truman never matched the popularity or appeal of his predecessor, Franklin Roosevelt. But Mr. McCullough illustrates an ordinary man who accomplished extraordinary things with a philosophy of "work hard, do your best, speak the truth, assume no airs, trust in God, have no fear."
Columbia University historian David Brinkley says McCullough does not grapple with the decision to drop the bomb. But, "Perhaps most important, Mr. McCullough argues, he was a decent man with common sense. Knowing that about himself, he relied on his instincts, which were usually (although not always) correct," Mr. Brinkley finds.
Truman did not sleep well at Potsdam, according to McCullough's account. On July 25, the day the order went to the Air Force to deliver the bomb to the Pacific air command, Truman wrote in his diary, "We have discovered the most terrible bomb in the history of the world."
Pretty funny coming from the only country that was even remotely in the atomic race with us in WW2.
I suggest we rename Truman's home in Independence, MO, "Auschwitz Haus".
And my wargaming buddy wonders why I so enjoy killing his precious little white-on-black SS counters. Fucking Krauts.
It's just one city government. I'd like to see what the rest of Germany thinks of the idea.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 07, 2009, 08:10:51 PM
It's just one city government. I'd like to see what the rest of Germany thinks of the idea.
They're Germans. They're like the Borg, all neuro-connected in their anti-Semitic passivity.
Those Germans are pretty fucking ballsy, criticizing the decisions of those who put their rampage to an end.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 07, 2009, 08:10:51 PM
It's just one city government. I'd like to see what the rest of Germany thinks of the idea.
Useless symbolic acts apparently are all the rage amongst leftists in the past few years. In my town they do that with street names.
There is a Carl-Peters-Straße the city government wants to rename because that name doesn't appear to be likable enough. (Carl Peters went to school here.) So they tried to get rid of it by asking the people living in the Carl-Peters-Straße. They didn't give an askari ass about it and voted for keeping the name.
Next bit was a new use for the abandoned Schlieffen barracks area. The city planners called the new quarter after the old barracks and got lots of protests from the Greens and the Left. How could they dare using the traditional name of Schlieffen who was directly responsible for the Herero massacre on a planning map!
Since there obviously is nothing else to talk about in local politics we now have the Hindenburgstraße on the agenda. Hindenburg, the most evil predecessor of Adolf Nazi. the man who created a monster, how could he have a street named after him! Some people talk about it and write their letters to the local newspaper, bitching about the opposite opinion, but mainly its just a lot of smoke without a fire. hardly anyone seems to care.
Christian Science Monitor, eh. Glad someone takes interest in these useless debates.
Well, I was hoping for retarded and offensive rather more than useless and silly.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 07, 2009, 09:10:19 PM
Well, I was hoping for retarded and offensive rather more than useless and silly.
Useless or not, it's stupid and insulting to even be considered.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 07, 2009, 09:35:06 PM
Useless or not, it's stupid and insulting to even be considered.
Uh, what now?
Quote from: syk on December 07, 2009, 08:48:52 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 07, 2009, 08:10:51 PM
It's just one city government. I'd like to see what the rest of Germany thinks of the idea.
Useless symbolic acts apparently are all the rage amongst leftists in the past few years. In my town they do that with street names.
There is a Carl-Peters-Straße the city government wants to rename because that name doesn't appear to be likable enough. (Carl Peters went to school here.) So they tried to get rid of it by asking the people living in the Carl-Peters-Straße. They didn't give an askari ass about it and voted for keeping the name.
Next bit was a new use for the abandoned Schlieffen barracks area. The city planners called the new quarter after the old barracks and got lots of protests from the Greens and the Left. How could they dare using the traditional name of Schlieffen who was directly responsible for the Herero massacre on a planning map!
Since there obviously is nothing else to talk about in local politics we now have the Hindenburgstraße on the agenda. Hindenburg, the most evil predecessor of Adolf Nazi. the man who created a monster, how could he have a street named after him! Some people talk about it and write their letters to the local newspaper, bitching about the opposite opinion, but mainly its just a lot of smoke without a fire. hardly anyone seems to care.
Christian Science Monitor, eh. Glad someone takes interest in these useless debates.
Obviously they name the streets after good leftists. Perhaps Baaderstrasse and Meinhofstrasse, or Honeckerstrasse
Good leftists should include Stalin and Beria.
Really? In Little Rock, we name our streets after Confederate generals.
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=longstreet+little+rock&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=41.496446,93.076172&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Longstreet+Dr,+Little+Rock,+Pulaski,+Arkansas+72206&ll=34.723317,-92.190088&spn=0.005273,0.011362&z=17 (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=longstreet+little+rock&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=41.496446,93.076172&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Longstreet+Dr,+Little+Rock,+Pulaski,+Arkansas+72206&ll=34.723317,-92.190088&spn=0.005273,0.011362&z=17)
That's very common in Memphis too. Here in Martin, there's actually a Joseph E Johnston building for some department or another. (Not humanities, interestingly..)
And of course the ubiquitous Lee street.
Fucking Modern apoligistism.
QuoteHad the US public discovered a war-ending weapon that Truman did not use, his presidency would have ended, is another argument posed
:huh: It did end.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi13.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa299%2FSlayhem%2Ftruman.jpg&hash=123cc8b9e3e3b20cbe57c6b61329738afa076593)
We have a little crappy street in South Austin named Robert E Lee. Fitting for a man whose only positive contribution was a brief presidency of a small Virginia University.
Quote from: Valmy on December 08, 2009, 04:04:45 PM
We have a little crappy street in South Austin named Robert E Lee. Fitting for a man whose only positive contribution was a brief presidency of a small Virginia University.
What about his service in the Mexican American War?
Also, I think that the way in which he ended the war, forbidding the dispersal of the army to wage a guerrilla conflict and urging reconciliation was positive.
Have Potsdam marked as S.E.D. gebiet Potsdam on official U.S. maps.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 08, 2009, 07:33:09 PM
Also, I think that the way in which he ended the war, forbidding the dispersal of the army to wage a guerrilla conflict and urging reconciliation was positive.
Was it really?
Quote from: Neil on December 08, 2009, 08:35:06 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 08, 2009, 07:33:09 PM
Also, I think that the way in which he ended the war, forbidding the dispersal of the army to wage a guerrilla conflict and urging reconciliation was positive.
Was it really?
Well, I suppose Lettow and his ilk may disagree, but I can't see why anyone else would. :huh:
Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 08, 2009, 08:44:09 PM
Quote from: Neil on December 08, 2009, 08:35:06 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 08, 2009, 07:33:09 PM
Also, I think that the way in which he ended the war, forbidding the dispersal of the army to wage a guerrilla conflict and urging reconciliation was positive.
Was it really?
Well, I suppose Lettow and his ilk may disagree, but I can't see why anyone else would. :huh:
Because the annihilation of the Southern race would give America a much healthier perspective on relations with blacks. Sure, most Northerners are virulently racist, but without the spectre of slavery hanging over them, they'd be more capable of becoming wise.
Quote from: Neil on December 08, 2009, 09:02:35 PM
Sure, most Northerners are virulently racist,
It's not that they're racist, they just don't want to be around them. Hell if you'll find me at a Red Lobster on a Friday night. Shrcrimp platter. Mmm-hmm, hunnay. *snap*
Quote from: The Brain on December 08, 2009, 12:46:57 PM
QuoteHad the US public discovered a war-ending weapon that Truman did not use, his presidency would have ended, is another argument posed
:huh: It did end.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi13.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa299%2FSlayhem%2Ftruman.jpg&hash=123cc8b9e3e3b20cbe57c6b61329738afa076593)
Apparantly, someone thinks he's still President.
Though I have to say that a zombie Harry S Truman would probably be a better President than the past 4 we've had.
What would Truman have done that Bush 41 didn't?
Quote from: dps on December 08, 2009, 11:30:51 PM
Quote from: The Brain on December 08, 2009, 12:46:57 PM
QuoteHad the US public discovered a war-ending weapon that Truman did not use, his presidency would have ended, is another argument posed
:huh: It did end.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi13.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa299%2FSlayhem%2Ftruman.jpg&hash=123cc8b9e3e3b20cbe57c6b61329738afa076593)
Apparantly, someone thinks he's still President.
Though I have to say that a zombie Harry S Truman would probably be a better President than the past 4 we've had.
A better president dead than any man alive. :yes:
Quote from: syk on December 07, 2009, 08:48:52 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 07, 2009, 08:10:51 PM
It's just one city government. I'd like to see what the rest of Germany thinks of the idea.
Useless symbolic acts apparently are all the rage amongst leftists in the past few years. In my town they do that with street names.
There is a Carl-Peters-Straße the city government wants to rename because that name doesn't appear to be likable enough. (Carl Peters went to school here.) So they tried to get rid of it by asking the people living in the Carl-Peters-Straße. They didn't give an askari ass about it and voted for keeping the name.
Next bit was a new use for the abandoned Schlieffen barracks area. The city planners called the new quarter after the old barracks and got lots of protests from the Greens and the Left. How could they dare using the traditional name of Schlieffen who was directly responsible for the Herero massacre on a planning map!
Since there obviously is nothing else to talk about in local politics we now have the Hindenburgstraße on the agenda. Hindenburg, the most evil predecessor of Adolf Nazi. the man who created a monster, how could he have a street named after him! Some people talk about it and write their letters to the local newspaper, bitching about the opposite opinion, but mainly its just a lot of smoke without a fire. hardly anyone seems to care.
Christian Science Monitor, eh. Glad someone takes interest in these useless debates.
We have the same in Poland, only going the opposite way, with the crazy rightists trying to rename any street that is named after someone with even remote ties to communism (and I am not just talking communist era apparatschiks here, but, say, Polish socialist writers of 1890s or something). Of course the people least willing to follow through with this crap are people actually living in a given street, since they couldn't care less about the name but don't want to go through all the hassle of changing your address on documents and stuff.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 08, 2009, 10:37:54 PM
Quote from: Neil on December 08, 2009, 09:02:35 PM
Sure, most Northerners are virulently racist,
It's not that they're racist, they just don't want to be around them. Hell if you'll find me at a Red Lobster on a Friday night. Shrcrimp platter. Mmm-hmm, hunnay. *snap*
:lol:
Quote from: Neil on December 08, 2009, 09:02:35 PM
Sure, most Northerners are virulently racist,
And the further north you go, the more virulent the racism.
There are still wonderfully named streets in East Berlin. I loved KarlMarxAllee (renamed from StalinStrasse) and RosaLuxemburgPlatz - though how a Soviet system could honour the founder of Luxemburgist communism is beyond me.
KarlMarxAllee:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgpsmission.com%2Fmedia%2F8596109.jpg&hash=46bf06d589dfa40b00967f658b990c57e221e346)
:mmm:
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 08, 2009, 10:37:54 PM
It's not that they're racist, they just don't want to be around them. Hell if you'll find me at a Red Lobster on a Friday night. Shrcrimp platter. Mmm-hmm, hunnay. *snap*
:lol:
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 09, 2009, 10:23:11 AM
though how a Soviet system could honour the founder of Luxemburgist communism is beyond me.
They did that all the time. They went out of their way to honor every known German communist. When they ran out of them, they found some socialists. And when they ran out of *those*, they cherry-picked certain older figures from German/Prussian history that may have had somewhat liberal viewpoints for their time. E.g., the East German army had medals named after Gneisenau & Scharnhorst.
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 09, 2009, 10:23:11 AMI loved KarlMarxAllee (renamed from StalinStrasse) and RosaLuxemburgPlatz - though how a Soviet system could honour the founder of Luxemburgist communism is beyond me.
With all the Luxemburgists dead the Stalinists can steal their thunder. Just like they stole Marx' thunder.
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 09, 2009, 10:23:11 AM
There are still wonderfully named streets in East Berlin. I loved KarlMarxAllee (renamed from StalinStrasse) and RosaLuxemburgPlatz - though how a Soviet system could honour the founder of Luxemburgist communism is beyond me.
I liked how East Germany regularly arrested people in RosaLuxemburgPlatz for quoting Rosa Luxemburg.
I am Sparticist!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ9AC7GH9Sc&feature=player_embedded
Quote from: grumbler on December 09, 2009, 10:19:01 AM
Quote from: Neil on December 08, 2009, 09:02:35 PM
Sure, most Northerners are virulently racist,
And the further north you go, the more virulent the racism.
:mad:
Quote from: Ed Anger on December 09, 2009, 07:20:32 PM
Quote from: Barrister on December 09, 2009, 07:18:42 PM
Quote from: grumbler on December 09, 2009, 10:19:01 AM
Quote from: Neil on December 08, 2009, 09:02:35 PM
Sure, most Northerners are virulently racist,
And the further north you go, the more virulent the racism.
:mad:
Nobody cares about Canada.
Grumbler clearly does. :mad:
Quote from: Barrister on December 09, 2009, 07:24:11 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on December 09, 2009, 07:20:32 PM
Quote from: Barrister on December 09, 2009, 07:18:42 PM
Quote from: grumbler on December 09, 2009, 10:19:01 AM
Quote from: Neil on December 08, 2009, 09:02:35 PM
Sure, most Northerners are virulently racist,
And the further north you go, the more virulent the racism.
:mad:
Nobody cares about Canada.
Grumbler clearly does. :mad:
The dude is nuts.
Quote from: Barrister on December 09, 2009, 07:18:42 PM
Quote from: grumbler on December 09, 2009, 10:19:01 AM
Quote from: Neil on December 08, 2009, 09:02:35 PM
Sure, most Northerners are virulently racist,
And the further north you go, the more virulent the racism.
:mad:
If you weren't, you'd have plenty of them up there.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 09, 2009, 07:41:26 PM
Quote from: Barrister on December 09, 2009, 07:18:42 PM
Quote from: grumbler on December 09, 2009, 10:19:01 AM
Quote from: Neil on December 08, 2009, 09:02:35 PM
Sure, most Northerners are virulently racist,
And the further north you go, the more virulent the racism.
:mad:
If you weren't, you'd have plenty of them up there.
If you take all of northern Canada, I'm in the minority.