Strip seareches in middle school? Ew.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/24/us/24savana.html?_r=1&pagewanted=1&emc=eta1
QuoteStrip-Search of Girl Tests Limit of School Policy
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By ADAM LIPTAK
Published: March 23, 2009
SAFFORD, Ariz. — Savana Redding still remembers the clothes she had on — black stretch pants with butterfly patches and a pink T-shirt — the day school officials here forced her to strip six years ago. She was 13 and in eighth grade.
Savana Redding, 19, was strip searched six years ago when teachers suspected she had brought prescription pills to school.
An assistant principal, enforcing the school's antidrug policies, suspected her of having brought prescription-strength ibuprofen pills to school. One of the pills is as strong as two Advils.
The search by two female school employees was methodical and humiliating, Ms. Redding said. After she had stripped to her underwear, "they asked me to pull out my bra and move it from side to side," she said. "They made me open my legs and pull out my underwear."
Ms. Redding, an honors student, had no pills. But she had a furious mother and a lawyer, and now her case has reached the Supreme Court, which will hear arguments on April 21.
The case will require the justices to consider the thorny question of just how much leeway school officials should have in policing zero-tolerance policies for drugs and violence, and the court is likely to provide important guidance to schools around the nation.
In Ms. Redding's case, the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit, in San Francisco, ruled that school officials had violated the Fourth Amendment's ban on unreasonable searches. Writing for the majority, Judge Kim McLane Wardlaw said, "It does not require a constitutional scholar to conclude that a nude search of a 13-year-old child is an invasion of constitutional rights."
"More than that," Judge Wardlaw added, "it is a violation of any known principle of human dignity."
Judge Michael Daly Hawkins, dissenting, said the case was in some ways "a close call," given the "humiliation and degradation" involved. But, Judge Hawkins concluded, "I do not think it was unreasonable for school officials, acting in good faith, to conduct the search in an effort to obviate a potential threat to the health and safety of their students."
Richard Arum, who teaches sociology and education at New York University, said he would have handled the incident differently. But Professor Arum said the Supreme Court should proceed cautiously.
"Do we really want to encourage cases," Professor Arum asked, "where students and parents are seeking monetary damages against educators in such school-specific matters where reasonable people can disagree about what is appropriate under the circumstances?"
The Supreme Court's last major decision on school searches based on individual suspicion — as opposed to systematic drug testing programs — was in 1985, when it allowed school officials to search a student's purse without a warrant or probable cause as long their suspicions were reasonable. It did not address intimate searches.
In a friend-of-the-court brief in Ms. Redding's case, the federal government said the search of her was unreasonable because officials had no reason to believe she was "carrying the pills inside her undergarments, attached to her nude body, or anywhere else that a strip search would reveal."
The government added, though, that the scope of the 1985 case was not well established at the time of the 2003 search, so the assistant principal should not be subject to a lawsuit.
Sitting in her aunt's house in this bedraggled mining town a two-hour drive northeast of Tucson, Ms. Redding, now 19, described the middle-school cliques and jealousies that she said had led to the search. "There are preppy kids, gothic kids, nerdy types," she said. "I was in between nerdy and preppy."
One of her friends since early childhood had moved in another direction. "She started acting weird and wearing black," Ms. Redding said. "She started being embarrassed by me because I was nerdy."
When the friend was found with ibuprofen pills, she blamed Ms. Redding, according to court papers.
Kerry Wilson, the assistant principal, ordered the two school employees to search both students. The searches turned up no more pills.
Mr. Wilson declined a request for an interview and referred a reporter to the superintendent of schools, Mark R. Tregaskes. Mr. Tregaskes did not respond to a message left with his assistant.
Lawyers for the school district said in a brief that it was "on the front lines of a decades-long struggle against drug abuse among students." Abuse of prescription and over-the-counter medications is on the rise among 12- and 13-year-olds, the brief said, citing data from the Office of National Drug Control Policy.
Given that, the school district said, the search was "not excessively intrusive in light of Redding's age and sex and the nature of her suspected infraction."
Adam B. Wolf, a lawyer with the American Civil Liberties Union, which represents Ms. Redding, said her experience was "the worst nightmare for any parent."
"When you send your child off to school every day, you expect them to be in math class or in the choir," Mr. Wolf said. "You never imagine their being forced to strip naked and expose their genitalia and breasts to their school officials."
In a sworn statement submitted in the case, Safford Unified School District v. Redding, No. 08-479, Mr. Wilson said he had good reason to suspect Ms. Redding. She and other students had been unusually rowdy at a school dance a couple of months before, and members of the school staff thought they had smelled alcohol. A student also accused Ms. Redding of having served alcohol at a party before the dance, Mr. Wilson said.
Ms. Redding said she had served only soda at the party, adding that her accuser was not there. At the dance, she said, school administrators had confused adolescent rambunctiousness with inebriation. "We're kids," she said. "We're goofy."
The search was conducted by Peggy Schwallier, the school nurse, and Helen Romero, a secretary. Ms. Redding "never appeared apprehensive or embarrassed," Ms. Schwallier said in a sworn statement. Ms. Redding said she had kept her head down so the women could not see that she was about to cry.
Ms. Redding said she was never asked if she had pills with her before she was searched. Mr. Wolf, her lawyer, said that was unsurprising.
"They strip-search first and ask questions later," Mr. Wolf said of school officials here.
Ms. Redding did not return to school for months after the search, studying at home. "I never wanted to see the secretary or the nurse ever again," she said.
In the end, she transferred to another school. The experience left her wary, nervous and distrustful, she said, and she developed stomach ulcers. She is now studying psychology at Eastern Arizona College and hopes to become a counselor.
Ms. Redding said school officials should have taken her background into account before searching her.
"They didn't even look at my records," she said. "They didn't even know I was a good kid."
The school district does not contest that Ms. Redding had no disciplinary record, but says that is irrelevant.
"Her assertion should not be misread to infer that she never broke school rules," the district said of Ms. Redding in a brief, "only that she was never caught."
Ms. Redding grew emotional as she reflected on what she would have done if she had been told as an adult to strip-search a student. Dabbing her eyes with a tissue, she said she would have refused.
"Why would I want to do that to a little girl and ruin her life like that?" Ms. Redding asked.
Wait. So students can't bring prescription drugs to school? What about students that are suffering from diseases and need to take them during school hours?
Quote"Her assertion should not be misread to infer that she never broke school rules," the district said of Ms. Redding in a brief, "only that she was never caught."
Oh my. That is just too sweet. Are they deliberately trying to dig their own grave? This quote is like something a cartoon totalitarian villain would say.
Quote from: Martinus on March 28, 2009, 06:45:25 PM
Wait. So students can't bring prescription drugs to school? What about students that are suffering from diseases and need to take them during school hours?
You take them to the school nurse(or office, as nurses are starting to become rarer in schools these days) and they are kept there. You go to the nurse to gets your pills.
It is impossible through words to describe my utter contempt for America.
Quote from: The Brain on March 28, 2009, 06:51:40 PM
It is impossible through words to describe my utter contempt for America.
GOD DAMN AMERICA.
See? it isn't so hard.
Quote from: Ed Anger on March 28, 2009, 06:53:16 PM
Quote from: The Brain on March 28, 2009, 06:51:40 PM
It is impossible through words to describe my utter contempt for America.
GOD DAMN AMERICA.
See? it isn't so hard.
ty
Quote from: Ed Anger on March 28, 2009, 06:47:23 PM
Quote from: Martinus on March 28, 2009, 06:45:25 PM
Wait. So students can't bring prescription drugs to school? What about students that are suffering from diseases and need to take them during school hours?
You take them to the school nurse(or office, as nurses are starting to become rarer in schools these days) and they are kept there. You go to the nurse to gets your pills.
:lmfao:
Quote from: Martinus on March 28, 2009, 06:45:25 PM
Wait. So students can't bring prescription drugs to school? What about students that are suffering from diseases and need to take them during school hours?
So, in Poland kids can just bring any prescribed drug they want to school and self-medicate without any adult guidance?
Quote from: Strix on March 28, 2009, 07:00:12 PM
Quote from: Martinus on March 28, 2009, 06:45:25 PM
Wait. So students can't bring prescription drugs to school? What about students that are suffering from diseases and need to take them during school hours?
So, in Poland kids can just bring any prescribed drug they want to school and self-medicate without any adult guidance?
.
Dude, we're talking ibuprofen here. Jesus fucking Christ. It's not morphine, you know.
Quote from: Iormlund on March 28, 2009, 07:01:01 PM
Quote from: Strix on March 28, 2009, 07:00:12 PM
Quote from: Martinus on March 28, 2009, 06:45:25 PM
Wait. So students can't bring prescription drugs to school? What about students that are suffering from diseases and need to take them during school hours?
So, in Poland kids can just bring any prescribed drug they want to school and self-medicate without any adult guidance?
.
Dude, we're talking ibuprofen here. Jesus fucking Christ. It's not morphine, you know.
We are discussing prescribed drugs here.
Quote from: Strix on March 28, 2009, 07:04:58 PM
We are discussing prescribed drugs here.
Quote from: Original Article
An assistant principal, enforcing the school's antidrug policies, suspected her of having brought prescription-strength ibuprofen pills to school. One of the pills is as strong as two Advils.
Quote from: Iormlund on March 28, 2009, 07:07:24 PM
Quote from: Strix on March 28, 2009, 07:04:58 PM
We are discussing prescribed drugs here.
Quote from: Original Article
An assistant principal, enforcing the school's antidrug policies, suspected her of having brought prescription-strength ibuprofen pills to school. One of the pills is as strong as two Advils.
I am guessing you are unable to read that part that states "prescription-strength" in that section?
If it's Ibuprofen or Suboxnel it falls under the rule that most schools use which is prescription drugs are kept at the nurses office and are dispensed there. I certainly don't want kids self-medicating or 'sharing' their prescriptions and I also certainly don't want the school security flunkies to decide what is or is not serious medication.
So, it's simple...if it's prescription you follow the rules.
Even Ibuprofen can cause issues if abused.
She could have been hiding the Ibuprofen in her anal cavity. Maybe even some Tylenol up there as well.
I remember people having prescription drugs in school. I guess it wasn't technically allowed, but they didn't seem to be making a big deal out of hunting them down. When they searched people they were looking for weapons and weed.
Quote from: Strix on March 28, 2009, 07:13:50 PM
Even Ibuprofen can cause issues if abused.
Indeed, it can make you unusually rowdy at a student dance, for example. Unacceptable.
And you people complain about Europe's nanny state. :lol:
Quote from: Strix on March 28, 2009, 07:13:50 PMI am guessing you are unable to read that part that states "prescription-strength" in that section?
The part where it says "as strong as 2 normal Advil" really screws that.
OH GOD NO! SHE ONLY HAS TO TAKE HALF AS MANY TO ABUSE THIS VERSION!!!!111!!!
Quote from: Iormlund on March 28, 2009, 07:23:08 PM
Quote from: Strix on March 28, 2009, 07:13:50 PM
Even Ibuprofen can cause issues if abused.
Indeed, it can make you unusually rowdy at a student dance, for example. Unacceptable.
And you people complain about Europe's nanny state. :lol:
Dude, it's Strix.
In my day, we used to bring in whatever we wanted. Hell, in my junior year, I was popping enough aspirin to fight off the headaches the school(I am still convinced the building was trying to kill me) was giving me.
I'm glad I got out when I did. They pussified the schools soon afterward. Class of '89 baby.
Now, they coddle the kids and they turn out all emo. A stint in the army will shape them up.
Strix brings up a good point, though. A school is full of dangers - for example glue. I presume the school nurse has to keep all that as well, lest a kid starts to inhale it.
And don't get me started on waxed floors or playground structures ...
Quote from: Iormlund on March 28, 2009, 07:23:08 PM
Quote from: Strix on March 28, 2009, 07:13:50 PM
Even Ibuprofen can cause issues if abused.
Indeed, it can make you unusually rowdy at a student dance, for example. Unacceptable.
And you people complain about Europe's nanny state. :lol:
It can cause serious issues with a person's stomach and intestines and can be fatal if they are allergic to it especially when it it a
higher prescription dose.
But, hey, they are kids. They know best what's good for their bodies. :lol:
Quote from: Martinus on March 28, 2009, 07:26:43 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on March 28, 2009, 07:23:08 PM
Quote from: Strix on March 28, 2009, 07:13:50 PM
Even Ibuprofen can cause issues if abused.
Indeed, it can make you unusually rowdy at a student dance, for example. Unacceptable.
And you people complain about Europe's nanny state. :lol:
Dude, it's Strix.
You're correct sir. Which means unless we are discussing issues related to your imaginary law degree I know a whole lot more than some backwards uncivilized eastern european Pollack. :hug:
You can save on that lecture. I'm perfectly aware of what Ibuprofen is, since I'm a) alergic and b) a sufferer of Crohn's disease.
And even as a kid I was smart enough to know I couldn't take any - not to mention any kind of random pill. Not that my friends would offer theirs. By the time we were 13 they were too busy getting hammered to care about doing some NSAIDs.
Quote from: Iormlund on March 28, 2009, 07:37:05 PM
You can save on that lecture. I'm perfectly aware of what Ibuprofen is, since I'm a) alergic and b) a sufferer of Crohn's disease.
And even as a kid I was smart enough to know I couldn't take any - not to mention any kind of random pill. Not that my friends would offer theirs. By the time we were 13 they were too busy getting hammered to care about doing some NSAIDs.
Honestly, the danger is that a lot of high school age (and younger) kids engage in what are called 'Pharm' parties. They grab prescription medications from their parents and relatives than mix and match eating them like a bunch of skittles to see what happens.
I don't know if this school had an issue with this or if it was having an issue with kids abusing prescription medications. I just know they put rules in place to avoid confusion and unfortunate accidents.
And, yes, kids are coddled too much in the US today. As a result we need these kinds of rules to save them from themselves.
Quote from: Iormlund on March 28, 2009, 07:23:08 PM
Indeed, it can make you unusually rowdy at a student dance, for example. Unacceptable.
And you people complain about Europe's nanny state. :lol:
Oh jesus fucking christ. The obvious danger is having kids bringing perscription drugs to school and handing them out to other students.
Like good school officials they were going by the letter of the law and not the spirit and went overboard.
But surely you are not so dense or moronic you cannot comprehend the simple logic of not allowing drugs judged too dangerous to be sold over the counter being used without adult supervision.
Quote from: Valmy on March 28, 2009, 07:48:30 PMLike good school officials they were going by the letter of the law and not the spirit and went overboard.
If the letter of the law says "strip search for all prescription drugs" it's more than a little fucked up.
Quote from: ulmont on March 28, 2009, 07:56:11 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 28, 2009, 07:48:30 PMLike good school officials they were going by the letter of the law and not the spirit and went overboard.
If the letter of the law says "strip search for all prescription drugs" it's more than a little fucked up.
No I assure you it did not. They clearly are in the wrong in this particular case, even if they turned up bags of crack in her ass.
Following on the saving of themselves thing, having a nurse at school up to date (and to take over with really dangerous stuff and small kids) is great, but to me it seems you (as in Americans although I've seen it often here as well) would rather shield kids from reality. And that's really dangerous because adults often fuck up as well. I've had to point out to nurses or doctors that I'm allergic to this or I'm taking that when they were going to make a mistake. It happens. We're all humans. I routinely ask what they are going to administrate me, why and how it works.
A kid, and especially a sick kid has to know exactly what he takes, what he cannot take, what may happen if he takes something he should not, why he cannot share his medicine, etc. And of course the home drug cabinet should be locked.
You want to keep kids from doing shit? That's something you can't delegate. It's your fucking job as a parent. And IMHO one of the most difficult, probably because of all the drug users I've known.
Quote from: Valmy on March 28, 2009, 07:58:37 PM
Quote from: ulmont on March 28, 2009, 07:56:11 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 28, 2009, 07:48:30 PMLike good school officials they were going by the letter of the law and not the spirit and went overboard.
If the letter of the law says "strip search for all prescription drugs" it's more than a little fucked up.
No I assure you it did not. They clearly are in the wrong in this particular case, even if they turned up bags of crack in her ass.
Well that's what the SC is going to elucidate, isn't it?
If this were a male who had to strip down to his boxers, would there be nearly as much outrage?
Quote from: Fate on March 28, 2009, 08:25:38 PM
If this were a male who had to strip down to his boxers, would there be nearly as much outrage?
Depends on whether it was a Catholic School or not ...
Quote from: Iormlund on March 28, 2009, 08:28:54 PM
Quote from: Fate on March 28, 2009, 08:25:38 PM
If this were a male who had to strip down to his boxers, would there be nearly as much outrage?
Depends on whether it was a Catholic School or not ...
Let's assume the same facts as this case (a public school), except for the individual's gender.
Quote from: Fate on March 28, 2009, 08:25:38 PM
If this were a male who had to strip down to his boxers, would there be nearly as much outrage?
Of course not.
Quote from: Fate on March 28, 2009, 08:25:38 PM
If this were a male who had to strip down to his boxers, would there be nearly as much outrage?
This is an OUTRAGE. Stripping in public is a RIGHT guaranteed in the CONSTITUTION. By God!
Quote from: Valmy on March 28, 2009, 07:48:30 PM
But surely you are not so dense or moronic you cannot comprehend the simple logic of not allowing drugs judged too dangerous to be sold over the counter being used without adult supervision.
Back when I was in jr. high and high school, we were considered to have enough sense to follow the directions on the label. Of course, generally if you had been given a perscription, you were sick enough that you were going to be held out of school while you were taking it anyway. Unless it was for a chronic condition, in which case you were supposed to learn how to administer it youself at as young an age as possible.
Quote from: Strix on March 28, 2009, 07:42:12 PM
Honestly, the danger is that a lot of high school age (and younger) kids engage in what are called 'Pharm' parties. They grab prescription medications from their parents and relatives than mix and match eating them like a bunch of skittles to see what happens.
You're an idiot.
Quote from: Fireblade on March 28, 2009, 11:31:33 PM
Quote from: Strix on March 28, 2009, 07:42:12 PM
Honestly, the danger is that a lot of high school age (and younger) kids engage in what are called 'Pharm' parties. They grab prescription medications from their parents and relatives than mix and match eating them like a bunch of skittles to see what happens.
You're an idiot.
This guy says the whole thing is little more than media hysteria, with roots in 'fruit salad parties' in the 1960s.
http://www.slate.com/id/2187499/
Soon "Spin the bottle" will be punishable with 3 to 10 years in prison. :(
Schools here don't even have a nurse that could administer drugs to the students.
Quote from: Syt on March 29, 2009, 04:33:22 AM
Soon "Spin the bottle" will be punishable with 3 to 10 years in prison. :(
Youth prostitution! :o :ultra:
Quote from: Strix on March 28, 2009, 07:00:12 PM
So, in Poland kids can just bring any prescribed drug they want to school and self-medicate without any adult guidance?
They can in the UK, after a certain age. If it's a six year old then the parents will probably tell the teachers who'll do the medicine for them.
When I was younger I had problems with tonsilitis quite often and I'd bring my own antibiotics in and take them as prescribed.
This sounds, to me, like something the Daily Mail would describe as POLITICAL CORRECTNESS GONE MAD! and I'd be inclined to agree.
Quote from: Sheilbh on March 29, 2009, 06:05:42 AM
This sounds, to me, like something the Daily Mail would describe as POLITICAL CORRECTNESS GONE MAD! and I'd be inclined to agree.
You and the Daily Mail have a weird definition of political correctness.
What about kids with asthma inhalers? Do they get to expire somewhere whilst waiting for a "competent" adult, or are they allowed to keep their inhalers on them?
Quote from: Sheilbh on March 29, 2009, 06:05:42 AM
They can in the UK, after a certain age. If it's a six year old then the parents will probably tell the teachers who'll do the medicine for them.
When I was younger I had problems with tonsilitis quite often and I'd bring my own antibiotics in and take them as prescribed.
This sounds, to me, like something the Daily Mail would describe as POLITICAL CORRECTNESS GONE MAD! and I'd be inclined to agree.
Interesting. So, in Britain, kids can bring any prescritption drugs in any amounts they want to school? They won't have any prescription with them, of course, just the label on the bottle.
Sounds like what the Daily Mail would describe as NEGLIGENCE GONE MAD! and I'd be inclined to agree. That is a recipe for disaster.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on March 29, 2009, 06:32:43 AM
What about kids with asthma inhalers? Do they get to expire somewhere whilst waiting for a "competent" adult, or are they allowed to keep their inhalers on them?
What do you think?
I would assume they keep their inhalers on them, but the drugs the inhalers use are powerful and can give you a hit, so given the fuss about ibuprofen maybe not.
Quote from: Ed Anger on March 28, 2009, 07:27:50 PM
In my day, we used to bring in whatever we wanted. Hell, in my junior year, I was popping enough aspirin to fight off the headaches the school(I am still convinced the building was trying to kill me) was giving me.
Where the lights there by any chance of the long tube type? I think they're called halogenelamps, or is it neon? Soit, they make a buzzing sound and can appear to be flickering.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on March 29, 2009, 06:40:18 AM
I would assume they keep their inhalers on them, but the drugs the inhalers use are powerful and can give you a hit, so given the fuss about ibuprofen maybe not.
In our school, inhalers are generally required to be left in lockers, except during sports. If a student needs to use their inhaler, they have pemission to leave class and do so. Exceptions can be made, of course, for cases in which the student has a special need.
The possibilities for exceptions are true, of course, for any such prescription drugs, but the general rule is that the parent sends the drugs to school, where the nurse dispenses them as needed. This may seem nanny-statish to people who have not thought out the problem, but once someone thinks about it, and the possibility that the prescriptions could be stolen from a student and the student would not then have the drugs when they need them, the nanny-statish-thinkers will realize they are going over the top.
The rules in a school need to be simple, due to the nature of the people who must follow them (these are children, not adults). I entirely disagree with the decision that the school officials made in this particular case (following rules to the letter violates their spirit, as others have noted) but the general rule about controlling student access to prescription drugs is a wise and sound policy, is easy to implement, and can be easily understood by the students.
How entirely moronic. The kids stealing prescription meds from other pupils severely need one over the head, not the sick one. Rules need to be simple, my ass.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on March 29, 2009, 06:44:17 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on March 28, 2009, 07:27:50 PM
In my day, we used to bring in whatever we wanted. Hell, in my junior year, I was popping enough aspirin to fight off the headaches the school(I am still convinced the building was trying to kill me) was giving me.
Where the lights there by any chance of the long tube type? I think they're called halogenelamps, or is it neon? Soit, they make a buzzing sound and can appear to be flickering.
Yeah. Also, in the design of my HS, there was an inner ring of classrooms with no windows. So the air got nasty, especially when somebody popped a fart.
Parents can't have it both ways. They can't hold the schools entirely responsible for the kids during school hours, and then leave the schools powerless when it comes to drugs. As for the 19-year old girl with the waterworks, get over it.
Quote from: Fireblade on March 28, 2009, 11:31:33 PM
Quote from: Strix on March 28, 2009, 07:42:12 PM
Honestly, the danger is that a lot of high school age (and younger) kids engage in what are called 'Pharm' parties. They grab prescription medications from their parents and relatives than mix and match eating them like a bunch of skittles to see what happens.
You're an idiot.
That isn't so meaningful coming from a waste case such as yourself. Get a job and a life than get back to me on that.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 29, 2009, 06:26:04 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on March 29, 2009, 06:05:42 AM
This sounds, to me, like something the Daily Mail would describe as POLITICAL CORRECTNESS GONE MAD! and I'd be inclined to agree.
You and the Daily Mail have a weird definition of political correctness.
The Daily Mail views things like 'baa-baa rainbow sheep', EU regulations on anything, 'elf and safety laws' and anything indicative of a nanny state as POLITICAL CORRECTNESS GONE MAD! Of course with this story that would be the line they'd take, if a kid went to hospital because of a 'pharm party' (never heard of anything like that) then the line would be something about a school failing children and why we're all doomed.
QuoteInteresting. So, in Britain, kids can bring any prescritption drugs in any amounts they want to school? They won't have any prescription with them, of course, just the label on the bottle.
I don't remember ever having to show the prescription or anything to the school staff. Though I think that probably is in the rules, yeah.
I've done a quick search of this in the UK and can't find anything about it, though there are numerous stories about the concerns outlined here in the US. I think that kids in the UK are too busy trying to get booze and finding the pubs that'll serve older-under-agers that they don't care about this sort of stuff. Plus the kids who are interested in drugs, in my experience, don't care or even really know about most prescribed ones. They're far more difficult to get than the illegal ones.
Quote from: SheilbhPlus the kids who are interested in drugs, in my experience, don't care or even really know about most prescribed ones. They're far more difficult to get than the illegal ones.
How can that be? Prescription drugs are present in every house at one time or another.
Quote from: Sheilbh on March 29, 2009, 09:58:27 AMI think that kids in the UK Europe are too busy trying to get booze and finding the pubs that'll serve older-under-agers that they don't care about this sort of stuff. Plus the kids who are interested in drugs, in my experience, don't care or even really know about most prescribed ones. They're far more difficult to get than the illegal ones.
This.
The only story I've found is that the UK is trending like the US in terms of prescription drugs. But the Home Office Minister describes prescription drug abuse as being pretty small with there being only 'anecdotal evidence' of a large black market. School policy here seems to be that you're responsible for your own drugs (by high school) but if you're taking prescribed drugs without a prescription then it's like taking illegal drugs.
But the UK's considering using more drug testing in schools.
The other difference from the article that struck me was that we don't have school nurses or school security.
Quote from: Sheilbh on March 29, 2009, 10:03:12 AM
The only story I've found is that the UK is trending like the US in terms of prescription drugs. But the Home Office Minister describes prescription drug abuse as being pretty small with there being only 'anecdotal evidence' of a large black market. School policy here seems to be that you're responsible for your own drugs (by high school) but if you're taking prescribed drugs without a prescription then it's like taking illegal drugs.
But the UK's considering using more drug testing in schools.
The other difference from the article that struck me was that we don't have school nurses or school security.
Who decides if a kid's really sick and has to go home or if they're faking it? What if a kid gets hurt or falls ill and requires first aid?
Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 29, 2009, 10:02:30 AM
How can that be? Prescription drugs are present in every house at one time or another.
Yeah, but it's mostly antibiotics and stuff like that. Who wants to take pennicillin when you know someone who can get you some pot?
Plus in the UK at least we don't get prescribed a lot and if it's long-term then you need to go for a check-up every now and then (I think quaterly) to make sure it's working. So you generally don't get prescribed for more than a month in advance, or, for short-term conditions for more than say fortnight. You need to get repeat prescriptions.
I know my house never had many prescribed stuff (except for my dad's asthma) because if any of us got antibiotics my mother would make sure we finished the course because that's why we had it that long, to make sure whatever we had was really killed off :D
Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 29, 2009, 10:05:24 AM
Who decides if a kids really sick and has to go home or if they're faking it? What if a kid gets hurt or falls ill and requires first aid?
All teachers are first aiders and some percentage have to be trained to a very high level.
Generally the teachers and the secretary decide if you go home or if you're faking it. Luckily I was always friendly with the secretary (her and my personal tutor used to bin bad reports about me before they got to the headmaster :lol:).
Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 29, 2009, 10:02:30 AM
How can that be? Prescription drugs are present in every house at one time or another.
Not ones that can get you high. Dad's pills for the clap aren't much use when you can ask any stoner in school for an 1/8th.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 29, 2009, 10:02:30 AM
Quote from: SheilbhPlus the kids who are interested in drugs, in my experience, don't care or even really know about most prescribed ones. They're far more difficult to get than the illegal ones.
How can that be? Prescription drugs are present in every house at one time or another.
When it comes to taking stuff from home, my guess is most kids would rather take a bottle of whiskey rather than a box of any random medicine.
As for illegal drugs, they are very easy to obtain, especially weed and designer shit.
Quote from: Iormlund on March 29, 2009, 10:09:44 AM
When it comes to taking stuff from home, my guess is most kids would rather take a bottle of whiskey rather than a box of any random medicine.
As for illegal drugs, they are very easy to obtain, especially weed and designer shit.
Yeah, that's very true. I'd never have stolen drugs from home but unless the stuff looked really really nice I wouldn't object to stealing/drinking from the spirits cupboard.
Quote from: Iormlund on March 29, 2009, 10:09:44 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 29, 2009, 10:02:30 AM
Quote from: SheilbhPlus the kids who are interested in drugs, in my experience, don't care or even really know about most prescribed ones. They're far more difficult to get than the illegal ones.
How can that be? Prescription drugs are present in every house at one time or another.
When it comes to taking stuff from home, my guess is most kids would rather take a bottle of whiskey rather than a box of any random medicine.
As for illegal drugs, they are very easy to obtain, especially weed and designer shit.
They don't take random stuff, they go for the pain killers like Oxycontin. There's a huge black market in this.
Quote from: Strix on March 29, 2009, 09:20:55 AM
Quote from: Fireblade on March 28, 2009, 11:31:33 PM
Quote from: Strix on March 28, 2009, 07:42:12 PM
Honestly, the danger is that a lot of high school age (and younger) kids engage in what are called 'Pharm' parties. They grab prescription medications from their parents and relatives than mix and match eating them like a bunch of skittles to see what happens.
You're an idiot.
That isn't so meaningful coming from a waste case such as yourself. Get a job and a life than get back to me on that.
You don't know a goddamned thing about me. But that's not what's important. What's important is that you're a dipshit who doesn't know what he's talking about. "Pharm Parties" exist only in the feeble minds of the media and drug warriors like yourself.
So what are you again? A prison guard? I hope you get murdered in a prison riot.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 29, 2009, 10:11:39 AM
They don't take random stuff, they go for the pain killers like Oxycontin. There's a huge black market in this.
Sweet Jesus. Who the fuck is stupid enough to leave an opiate unlocked and unsupervised at home?
In Spain, at least, obtaining that shit is hard. You need a special kind of prescription. Definitely much easier to score some shit on the streets.
Quote from: Fireblade on March 29, 2009, 10:12:46 AM
Quote from: Strix on March 29, 2009, 09:20:55 AM
Quote from: Fireblade on March 28, 2009, 11:31:33 PM
Quote from: Strix on March 28, 2009, 07:42:12 PM
Honestly, the danger is that a lot of high school age (and younger) kids engage in what are called 'Pharm' parties. They grab prescription medications from their parents and relatives than mix and match eating them like a bunch of skittles to see what happens.
You're an idiot.
That isn't so meaningful coming from a waste case such as yourself. Get a job and a life than get back to me on that.
You don't know a goddamned thing about me. But that's not what's important. What's important is that you're a dipshit who doesn't know what he's talking about. "Pharm Parties" exist only in the feeble minds of the media and drug warriors like yourself.
So what are you again? A prison guard? I hope you get murdered in a prison riot.
No, I am the guy you will be reporting to once you finish serving your first term in prison. Just like the other 70% of my caseload who are drug abusers.
Drink some more Shine. I wouldn't expect someone from ARkansas to know much about what's going on in the States that matter.
Quote from: Strix on March 29, 2009, 10:18:08 AM
No, I am the guy you will be reporting to once you finish serving your first term in prison. Just like the other 70% of my caseload who are drug abusers.
Drink some more Shine. I wouldn't except someone from ARkansas to know much about what's going on in the States that matter.
:lol: Strix, you're so worthless it's not even really worth insulting you.
There's two issues here: whether strip searches are a reasonable action for school officials, and whether the cause for this particular incident was reasonable.
Strip searches are, by nature, incredibly invasive and humiliating. That kind of authority should not be given to anyone outside law enforcement or certified security professionals.
The student had no disciplinary record, and teenage girls are well-known for bullying each other with rumors and false accusations. The rationale the district provided about her lack of disciplinary record simply meaning she had just gotten away with it violates the US premise of innocent until proven guilty; I think schools' tendency to search under that assumption is what needs to be addressed here.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 29, 2009, 10:05:24 AM
Who decides if a kid's really sick and has to go home or if they're faking it? What if a kid gets hurt or falls ill and requires first aid?
What a waste of money.
Has Strix always been like this or when did he change into Paul Atreides II.
(II stands for number of eyes.)
Quote from: Syt on March 29, 2009, 11:09:06 AM
Has Strix always been like this or when did he change into Paul Atreides II.
(II stands for number of eyes.)
What? Paul would be demanding that the kids be allowed to shoot heroin in school. Paul is almost the anti-Strix.
Quote from: DontSayBanana on March 29, 2009, 11:01:50 AM
Strip searches are, by nature, incredibly invasive and humiliating. That kind of authority should not be given to anyone outside law enforcement or certified security professionals.
For the record the girl was told to strip to her undies and shake them out. No spread eagle latex fist up her ass or coochie.
Quote from: Iormlund on March 29, 2009, 10:15:49 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 29, 2009, 10:11:39 AM
They don't take random stuff, they go for the pain killers like Oxycontin. There's a huge black market in this.
Sweet Jesus. Who the fuck is stupid enough to leave an opiate unlocked and unsupervised at home?
In Spain, at least, obtaining that shit is hard. You need a special kind of prescription. Definitely much easier to score some shit on the streets.
The discussion is about perscription drugs.
And yeah, gernerally it is easier to get drugs that are outright illegal than it is to get perscription drugs without a perscription.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 29, 2009, 11:19:52 AM
For the record the girl was told to strip to her undies and shake them out. No spread eagle latex fist up her ass or coochie.
For the record, I don't know of anyone who claimed that there was a cavity search such as you describe, so I am unsure why you felt it important that the record show that there was no cavity search. :huh:
Quote from: grumbler on March 29, 2009, 11:31:36 AM
For the record, I don't know of anyone who claimed that there was a cavity search such as you describe, so I am unsure why you felt it important that the record show that there was no cavity search. :huh:
I can live with that.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 29, 2009, 10:05:24 AMWho decides if a kid's really sick and has to go home or if they're faking it?
The teacher.
QuoteWhat if a kid gets hurt or falls ill and requires first aid?
With younger children, the parents will be called and have to pick them up. With older children (middle school an up), you either go home alone or another student walks with you to the next doctor. If there is doubt that they can make it to the next doctor on their own, an ambulance is called.
Having a school nurse seems to be wasteful from my school experience. They would just twiddle their thumbs 95% of the time.
Quote from: Syt on March 29, 2009, 11:09:06 AM
Has Strix always been like this or when did he change into Paul Atreides II.
(II stands for number of eyes.)
:huh: They don't seem at all similar to me.
Quote from: Zanza2 on March 29, 2009, 11:39:37 AM
The teacher.
A smart teacher won't make that call. A smart teacher will have the child calll his/her parent, and have the parent make that call. After all, the parent is gonna have to pick the kid up, anyway, and as a teacher I would never put myself in the position of having denied the parent the right to make that decision. That's asking for trouble.
QuoteWith younger children, the parents will be called and have to pick them up. With older children (middle school an up), you either go home alone or another student walks with you to the next doctor. If there is doubt that they can make it to the next doctor on their own, an ambulance is called.
Again, no school I am aware of would have a student leave and go home without contacting a parent and having them make the decision. Schools are surely required to have someone trained in first aid, and unless the situation obviously calls for an ambulence, the parent should be allowed to dictate how the child is treated beyond first aid.
Quote from: grumbler on March 29, 2009, 11:47:11 AMAgain, no school I am aware of would have a student leave and go home without contacting a parent and having them make the decision. Schools are surely required to have someone trained in first aid, and unless the situation obviously calls for an ambulence, the parent should be allowed to dictate how the child is treated beyond first aid.
Yeah this is true. But if the teachers think a kid is ill but they can't get in touch with the parent or what have you and still think the child's pretty ill then, generally, they'll pull them out of classes and put them in a quiet room near the office. That only happened to me once (I had broken my ankle and my dad was about 40 minutes drive away so I had to wait) I just sat there while the receptionist made me tea and got me a glass of water :)
QuoteIn Spain, at least, obtaining that shit is hard. You need a special kind of prescription. Definitely much easier to score some shit on the streets.
It's similar in the UK. Stuff like that's heavily regulated and doctors generally don't like prescribing it.
Quote from: Iormlund on March 29, 2009, 10:15:49 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 29, 2009, 10:11:39 AM
They don't take random stuff, they go for the pain killers like Oxycontin. There's a huge black market in this.
Sweet Jesus. Who the fuck is stupid enough to leave an opiate unlocked and unsupervised at home?
In Spain, at least, obtaining that shit is hard. You need a special kind of prescription. Definitely much easier to score some shit on the streets.
It's not that hard to get in NY and NC. Basically go to the emergency room and fake some symptoms. The local hospitals prescribe Hydrocodone and Oxycodone like it was candy. It's gotten so bad that I give my parolees a condition they cannot be prescribed a narcotic without clearing it with me first.
Quote from: Zanza2 on March 29, 2009, 11:39:37 AM
[Having a school nurse seems to be wasteful from my school experience. They would just twiddle their thumbs 95% of the time.
We had a school nurse when I was in elementary school, but not jr high or high school. But even in elementary school, she wasn't actually at the school most of the time. She was employed by the school system, and travelled to the various elementary schools. Mostly she would come to a school when they had scheduled immunizations at that particular school, or to give a lecture about some aspect of health. At the time, I think there were at least 30 elementary schools in our county school system, so she was only at any given school a few days a school year.
Quote from: Neil on March 29, 2009, 11:14:12 AM
Quote from: Syt on March 29, 2009, 11:09:06 AM
Has Strix always been like this or when did he change into Paul Atreides II.
(II stands for number of eyes.)
What? Paul would be demanding that the kids be allowed to shoot heroin in school. Paul is almost the anti-Strix.
I think the similarity is one of style rather than substance.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 29, 2009, 10:05:24 AM
Who decides if a kid's really sick and has to go home or if they're faking it? What if a kid gets hurt or falls ill and requires first aid?
I once broke a finger in a high school gym class. It took me two hours to convince the idiots in charge to let me out of the school, so that I can go to ER and have it splinted, and it was only after I walked back to the nurse's office with vice principal in tow. It didn't exactly leave me with a good impression of the intelligence level of the average school nurse, or the whole bureaucracy involved.
Quote from: DGuller on March 29, 2009, 10:30:16 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 29, 2009, 10:05:24 AM
Who decides if a kid's really sick and has to go home or if they're faking it? What if a kid gets hurt or falls ill and requires first aid?
I once broke a finger in a high school gym class. It took me two hours to convince the idiots in charge to let me out of the school, so that I can go to ER and have it splinted, and it was only after I walked back to the nurse's office with vice principal in tow. It didn't exactly leave me with a good impression of the intelligence level of the average school nurse, or the whole bureaucracy involved.
How old were ya? Here after 16 (IIRC) you can just leave anytime you want. even then, if you just didn't show up for next class at worst you'd get a call home.
Quote from: HVC on March 29, 2009, 11:02:17 PM
How old were ya? Here after 16 (IIRC) you can just leave anytime you want. even then, if you just didn't show up for next class at worst you'd get a call home.
I was 15 at the time. I guess I could physically leave school if I really had to, but the complication was that I had three finals later that day, and I would've gotten a zero on all those tests automatically had I left the school without permission. I didn't have faith in the bureaucrats to apply common sense and make an exception in case I did bolt, for obvious reason, so it was strictly a last resort option for me. Thankfully the vice principal came through for me, and as a bonus the nurses were pretty pissed.
Ah, finals. Guess they thought you had incentive to fake a broken finger :p
Quote from: HVC on March 29, 2009, 11:41:56 PM
Ah, finals. Guess they thought you had incentive to fake a broken finger :p
They didn't know I had finals.
Quote from: DGuller on March 29, 2009, 11:42:42 PM
Quote from: HVC on March 29, 2009, 11:41:56 PM
Ah, finals. Guess they thought you had incentive to fake a broken finger :p
They didn't know I had finals.
How were finals like in your school? In my two highschools it was always the last week of the semester, so there was no school unless you had tests (gym class had a physical test, whch is what i thought you were refering to in your opening post once you mentioned finals).
Quote from: HVC on March 29, 2009, 11:44:51 PM
How were finals like in your school? In my two highschools it was always the last week of the semester, so there was no school unless you had tests (gym class had a physical test, whch is what i thought you were refering to in your opening post once you mentioned finals).
My high school was unusual in that it had four quarters rather than two semesters. The final was simply the last and biggest test of the quarter, and was administered during the usual class time. It just so happened that three finals lined up on the same day, and I had a gym class before them.
We did have something called Regents exams at the end of the year (I think it's a New York state thing), where you did come to school only to take them, and go home when you were done.
When I broke my arm in gym class and my arm was shaped like an N, the school nurse told me that she thought it might be broken. She was also convinced that I didn't know English.
Quote from: DGuller on March 29, 2009, 10:30:16 PM
I once broke a finger in a high school gym class. It took me two hours to convince the idiots in charge to let me out of the school, so that I can go to ER and have it splinted, and it was only after I walked back to the nurse's office with vice principal in tow. It didn't exactly leave me with a good impression of the intelligence level of the average school nurse, or the whole bureaucracy involved.
I broke my toe in middle school. The gym teacher tried to get me to walk it off. :D
Quote from: HVC on March 29, 2009, 11:44:51 PMHow were finals like in your school? In my two highschools it was always the last week of the semester, so there was no school unless you had tests (gym class had a physical test, whch is what i thought you were refering to in your opening post once you mentioned finals).
My high school didn't really have 'finals.' Some classes had a comprehensive end of semester test, some just a normal test on whatever you were working on, and some nothing. It was nothing like in university, and all administered during the normal schedule.
Maybe people in the US have actually their homes full of prescription drugs (are Americans a nation that overmedicates?) I think it's probably different in Europe.
Quote from: grumbler on March 29, 2009, 11:47:11 AM
Quote from: Zanza2 on March 29, 2009, 11:39:37 AM
The teacher.
A smart teacher won't make that call. A smart teacher will have the child calll his/her parent, and have the parent make that call. After all, the parent is gonna have to pick the kid up, anyway, and as a teacher I would never put myself in the position of having denied the parent the right to make that decision. That's asking for trouble.
QuoteWith younger children, the parents will be called and have to pick them up. With older children (middle school an up), you either go home alone or another student walks with you to the next doctor. If there is doubt that they can make it to the next doctor on their own, an ambulance is called.
Again, no school I am aware of would have a student leave and go home without contacting a parent and having them make the decision. Schools are surely required to have someone trained in first aid, and unless the situation obviously calls for an ambulence, the parent should be allowed to dictate how the child is treated beyond first aid.
It could be a result of the difference in legal culture in the US and Europe, too. The US is a very litigious society and lawsuits against schools are quite common so I can imagine that teachers would be very reluctant to do anything like that.
Quote from: Strix on March 29, 2009, 12:46:14 PMIt's not that hard to get in NY and NC. Basically go to the emergency room and fake some symptoms. The local hospitals prescribe Hydrocodone and Oxycodone like it was candy. It's gotten so bad that I give my parolees a condition they cannot be prescribed a narcotic without clearing it with me first.
So probably such an approach is indeed needed in America. It's one of those cultural differences, I guess, like the obesity problem.
Quote from: Martinus on March 30, 2009, 07:36:57 AM
Maybe people in the US have actually their homes full of prescription drugs (are Americans a nation that overmedicates?) I think it's probably different in Europe.
I don't know what the situation in Europe is like, but there are a lot of people here, based on personal experience, who seem extremely reliant on drugs for both major and minor medical issues. I suspect this is due to the massive marketing and lobbying efforts made by pharmas.
Quote from: Martinus on March 30, 2009, 07:36:57 AM
Maybe people in the US have actually their homes full of prescription drugs (are Americans a nation that overmedicates?) I think it's probably different in Europe.
There are plenty of news stories in Britain about the exact same overmedication issue, so perhaps the divide is not America/Europe as you believe.
I think that there is no question, though, that American doctors over-medicate, and especially they over-medicate "hyperactive" school students.
GOD DAMN AMERICA.
This seems to have been an issue that arose after I left school. When we were in high school, everyone dealt with their own medicine without any controversy, apparently - as far as I know, I never even saw the school nurse, let alone handed meds over to her to dole back to me. I never even heard of such a thing until recently. Either no such policy existed or it was not enforced.
Quote from: Malthus on March 30, 2009, 09:14:12 AM
This seems to have been an issue that arose after I left school. When we were in high school, everyone dealt with their own medicine without any controversy, apparently - as far as I know, I never even saw the school nurse, let alone handed meds over to her to dole back to me. I never even heard of such a thing until recently. Either no such policy existed or it was not enforced.
I don't think we can assume that Canada follows the US model on this sort of thing.
Quote from: Jacob on March 30, 2009, 12:50:38 PM
Quote from: Malthus on March 30, 2009, 09:14:12 AM
This seems to have been an issue that arose after I left school. When we were in high school, everyone dealt with their own medicine without any controversy, apparently - as far as I know, I never even saw the school nurse, let alone handed meds over to her to dole back to me. I never even heard of such a thing until recently. Either no such policy existed or it was not enforced.
I don't think we can assume that Canada follows the US model on this sort of thing.
Well, certainly Malthus' experience in Canada seems to pretty much mine in the US. Whether current conditions in the 2 countries are likewise similar is another question.
Quote from: Jacob on March 30, 2009, 12:50:38 PM
Quote from: Malthus on March 30, 2009, 09:14:12 AM
This seems to have been an issue that arose after I left school. When we were in high school, everyone dealt with their own medicine without any controversy, apparently - as far as I know, I never even saw the school nurse, let alone handed meds over to her to dole back to me. I never even heard of such a thing until recently. Either no such policy existed or it was not enforced.
I don't think we can assume that Canada follows the US model on this sort of thing.
You could well be right - I have no idea whether such policies exist in Canada now or not.
What about all you who grew up in the US or Canada? Did such policies exist when you were going to school?
I sorta suspect that they were enacted because of the increased use in the '90s of amphetimine type drugs used to treat hyperactivity, such as Ritalin - that stuff wasn't commonly prescribed back in the early '80s. I read that some kids would indeed sell or trade them because when abused, you could get high off them. I suppose a policy of tighter control over such drugs makes some sense.
The thought of handing over one's antibiotics or ibuprofin makes considerably less sense.
With Ritalin I would think that academic doping would also be of concern.
I suppose there was a system in place (give drugs to nurse) but I never paid it any attention. We're a pharmaceutical family; we know our drugs.
I graduated high school in the early 90s and I've never heard of something like "hand your double strength ibuprofene to the nurse". Nor have I heard about anything like it from friends and acquaintances who've graduated later. Not that I've asked, mind you.
Quote from: Malthus on March 30, 2009, 01:22:01 PM
Quote from: Jacob on March 30, 2009, 12:50:38 PM
Quote from: Malthus on March 30, 2009, 09:14:12 AM
This seems to have been an issue that arose after I left school. When we were in high school, everyone dealt with their own medicine without any controversy, apparently - as far as I know, I never even saw the school nurse, let alone handed meds over to her to dole back to me. I never even heard of such a thing until recently. Either no such policy existed or it was not enforced.
I don't think we can assume that Canada follows the US model on this sort of thing.
You could well be right - I have no idea whether such policies exist in Canada now or not.
What about all you who grew up in the US or Canada? Did such policies exist when you were going to school?
I sorta suspect that they were enacted because of the increased use in the '90s of amphetimine type drugs used to treat hyperactivity, such as Ritalin - that stuff wasn't commonly prescribed back in the early '80s. I read that some kids would indeed sell or trade them because when abused, you could get high off them. I suppose a policy of tighter control over such drugs makes some sense.
The thought of handing over one's antibiotics or ibuprofin makes considerably less sense.
i went to school in the 90's (several in fact :P ) and we didn't have that policy. One kid had a Ritalin prescription in my calss, and he had the bottle on him. He just had to go to the prinicple during lunch to make sure he took his meds
And only one of my high schhols (and none of my elementary schools) had a full time nurse.
Quote from: Ed Anger on March 29, 2009, 08:26:42 AM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on March 29, 2009, 06:44:17 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on March 28, 2009, 07:27:50 PM
In my day, we used to bring in whatever we wanted. Hell, in my junior year, I was popping enough aspirin to fight off the headaches the school(I am still convinced the building was trying to kill me) was giving me.
Were the lights there by any chance of the long tube type? I think they're called halogenelamps, or is it neon? Soit, they make a buzzing sound and can appear to be flickering.
Yeah.
figures, they've been known to cause headaches
Quote from: Malthus on March 30, 2009, 01:22:01 PM
I sorta suspect that they were enacted because of the increased use in the '90s of amphetimine type drugs used to treat hyperactivity, such as Ritalin - that stuff wasn't commonly prescribed back in the early '80s. I read that some kids would indeed sell or trade them because when abused, you could get high off them. I suppose a policy of tighter control over such drugs makes some sense.
The thought of handing over one's antibiotics or ibuprofin makes considerably less sense.
:mmm: Adderall