QuoteCzech leader signs Lisbon Treaty
Czech President Vaclav Klaus has signed the European Union's Lisbon Treaty, the final step in its ratification.
The Czech Republic was the only EU country not to have approved the treaty, which was drawn up to streamline decision-making in the EU.
Mr Klaus signed the treaty shortly after the Czech constitutional court rejected a complaint against it.
Among its measures, the treaty creates a European Council president and alters the way member states vote.
The treaty could now come into force as early as December.
The treaty's supporters say it will allow the EU to operate more efficiently and give it greater influence in world affairs. Critics say it will cede too many national powers to Brussels.
LISBON TREATY
Creates new post of EU president (President of European Council)
New post of high representative for foreign affairs
More decisions by majority vote rather than unanimity
Ratified by all member states except Czech Republic
Only Irish Republic held referendum on it - twice ('Yes' vote second time)
Took a decade of negotiations
Was intended to take effect in January 2009
Britain's Conservative Party, which has opposed the treaty, said it would announce its response on Wednesday.
A BBC correspondent says Mr Klaus accused the court of bias and said the Czech Republic was no longer sovereign.
The Eurosceptic Czech leader had recently said he would no longer attempt to block the treaty, after receiving the promise of an opt-out from the EU's Charter of Fundamental Rights.
Mr Klaus said the opt-out was needed to avoid property claims from ethnic Germans expelled from Czechoslovakia after World War II.
The Lisbon Treaty replaced an earlier draft constitution, which was rejected in referendums in France and the Netherlands in 2005.
It would create the post of a new European Council president who would serve a term of two-and-a-half years.
It also provides for a new foreign policy chief, combining the posts of the existing foreign affairs representative and the external affairs commissioner.
European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso said earlier that he hoped the EU could move "as quickly as possible" to make appointments to the new posts.
:yeah:
How is a majority determined? By simpled country count, or weighted by populations?
Quote from: DGuller on November 03, 2009, 11:19:46 AM
How is a majority determined? By simpled country count, or weighted by populations?
It's the mix of the two. Essentially each country has a number of votes, which is related to its size/population but is not truly proportional. Sorta like with the US and congressmen from individual states.
Long Live President Blair!
The votes in the Council are:
29 votes: France, Germany, Italy, and the United Kingdom,
27 votes: Spain and Poland,
14 votes: Romania,
13 votes: The Netherlands,
12 votes: Belgium, the Czech Republic, Greece, Hungary, and Portugal,
10 votes: Austria, Bulgaria, and Sweden,
7 votes: Denmark, Finland, Ireland, Lithuania, and Slovakia,
4 votes: Cyprus, Estonia, Latvia, Luxembourg, and Slovenia,
3 votes: Malta.
Forecast for the immediate future: Be on the lookout for new waves of Euro-sanctimony, 80% chance of cross Atlantic stupidity.
Psst, a word of advice: when some countries start talking about secession, you should immediately crush the traitors outright (or ask Americans to do it for you). Trust me, in the long run, it'll be better that way.
Good for you, Europe. Might have had something...simpler. This is better than nothing.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on November 03, 2009, 12:11:55 PM
Good for you, Europe. Might have had something...simpler. This is better than nothing.
Since when are big international treaties simple?
What happened to the Tories' pledging to have a referendum?
Quote from: Faeelin on November 03, 2009, 12:15:04 PM
What happened to the Tories' pledging to have a referendum?
Kinda hard to have a retroactive referendum on a treaty already in force.
Great. So could you please conquer Russia now? :)
Quote from: Caliga on November 03, 2009, 12:18:12 PM
Great. So could you please conquer Russia now? :)
Why would we want to do that?
Quote from: Martinus on November 03, 2009, 12:16:31 PM
Quote from: Faeelin on November 03, 2009, 12:15:04 PM
What happened to the Tories' pledging to have a referendum?
Kinda hard to have a retroactive referendum on a treaty already in force.
So there's no way to withdraw? Interesting.
Quote from: Martinus on November 03, 2009, 12:18:45 PM
Why would we want to do that?
Russia's a menace, that's why. A menace 2 society.
Quote from: Martinus on November 03, 2009, 12:18:45 PM
Why would we want to do that?
Prime Siberian realestate.
*shrug* Or I guess don't conquer Russia, and wait for Russia to conquer you. :)
Now we can finally get something done.
QuoteKinda hard to have a retroactive referendum on a treaty already in force.
Thats what happened with Britain entering the EEC.
Which is worrying.
Quote from: Caliga on November 03, 2009, 12:24:49 PM
*shrug* Or I guess don't conquer Russia, and wait for Russia to conquer you. :)
Russia couldn't conquer a kindergarten sandbox.
Quote from: The Larch on November 03, 2009, 12:12:56 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on November 03, 2009, 12:11:55 PM
Good for you, Europe. Might have had something...simpler. This is better than nothing.
Since when are big international treaties simple?
:P
I said simpl
er.
Quote from: Faeelin on November 03, 2009, 12:19:44 PMSo there's no way to withdraw? Interesting.
The treaty has a provision for a country wishing to leave the EU. But that's not what the Tories want. They wanted to keep the EU as it was before the treaty.
If Britain actually leaves the EU because of some referendum, they can't really expect a good deal. As The Economist expressed it: you get the free book when you join the bookclub, not when you leave... ;)
What kind of stuff will be subject to a vote?
Oh, and do the voting weights get adjusted automatically with population growth/decline, or do they have to be renegotiated?
Quote from: DGuller on November 03, 2009, 11:33:03 AM
Psst, a word of advice: when some countries start talking about secession, you should immediately crush the traitors outright (or ask Americans to do it for you). Trust me, in the long run, it'll be better that way.
They should start with the ones in Switzerland and Norway.
EUROPE! EUROPE! EUROPE! :yeah:
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 03, 2009, 12:36:42 PM
Oh, and do the voting weights get adjusted automatically with population growth/decline, or do they have to be renegotiated?
It should be like the UNSC where France, Britain, the USA, Russia, and China are just assumed to be the dominant world powers for all eternity.
Quote from: Valmy on November 03, 2009, 12:46:29 PM
It should be like the UNSC where France, Britain, the USA, Russia, and China are just assumed to be the dominant world powers for all eternity.
Well, considering one of those seats changed hands already those positions aren't really set in stone.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 03, 2009, 12:35:52 PM
What kind of stuff will be subject to a vote?
Everything is by qualified majority voting except when explicitely stated otherwise in the treaties (e.g. defense or security policy which are unianimous).
Here is what the EU does:
Quote
Exclusive competence
The Union has exclusive competence to make directives and conclude international agreements when provided for in a Union legislative act.
* the customs union
* the establishing of the competition rules necessary for the functioning of the internal market
* monetary policy for the Member States whose currency is the euro
* the conservation of marine biological resources under the common fisheries policy
* common commercial (trade) policy
Shared competence
Member States cannot exercise competence in areas where the Union has done so.
* the internal market
* social policy, for the aspects defined in this Treaty
* economic, social and territorial cohesion
* agriculture and fisheries, excluding the conservation of marine biological resources
* environment
* consumer protection
* transport
* trans-European networks
* energy
* the area of freedom, security and justice
* common safety concerns in public health matters, for the aspects defined in this Treaty
Supporting competence
The Union can carry out actions to support, coordinate or supplement Member States' actions.
* the protection and improvement of human health
* industry
* culture
* tourism
* education, youth, sport and vocational training
* civil protection (disaster prevention)
* administrative cooperation
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 03, 2009, 12:36:42 PM
Oh, and do the voting weights get adjusted automatically with population growth/decline, or do they have to be renegotiated?
They have to be renegotiated.
Germany has about 200 times the population of Malta, but only 9 times the voting weight.
QuoteExclusive competence
The Union has exclusive competence to make directives and conclude international agreements when provided for in a Union legislative act.
* the conservation of marine biological resources under the common fisheries policy
BTW, I think this is awesome and should come into action ASAP.
Quote from: The Larch on November 03, 2009, 01:15:33 PM
QuoteExclusive competence
The Union has exclusive competence to make directives and conclude international agreements when provided for in a Union legislative act.
* the conservation of marine biological resources under the common fisheries policy
BTW, I think this is awesome and should come into action ASAP.
:lol:
Quote from: Faeelin on November 03, 2009, 12:19:44 PM
Quote from: Martinus on November 03, 2009, 12:16:31 PM
Quote from: Faeelin on November 03, 2009, 12:15:04 PM
What happened to the Tories' pledging to have a referendum?
Kinda hard to have a retroactive referendum on a treaty already in force.
So there's no way to withdraw? Interesting.
[/quote
Well, they could unilaterally abandon the EU, I guess. Which would be an economical suicide considering a number of ties they have that rely on the free movement of goods, workers, services and capital.
Quote from: Neil on November 03, 2009, 01:18:30 PM
Quote from: The Larch on November 03, 2009, 01:15:33 PM
QuoteExclusive competence
The Union has exclusive competence to make directives and conclude international agreements when provided for in a Union legislative act.
* the conservation of marine biological resources under the common fisheries policy
BTW, I think this is awesome and should come into action ASAP.
:lol:
So?
Quote from: The Larch on November 03, 2009, 01:24:04 PM
Quote from: Neil on November 03, 2009, 01:18:30 PM
Quote from: The Larch on November 03, 2009, 01:15:33 PM
QuoteExclusive competence
The Union has exclusive competence to make directives and conclude international agreements when provided for in a Union legislative act.
* the conservation of marine biological resources under the common fisheries policy
BTW, I think this is awesome and should come into action ASAP.
:lol:
So?
:lol: = OMG I LAUGH AT THINGS I DO NOT UNDERSTAND LOL
Quote from: The Larch on November 03, 2009, 01:24:04 PM
So?
I laugh at the idea of a Spaniard being in favour of using the word 'conservation' in relation to fisheries.
Quote from: Neil on November 03, 2009, 01:29:53 PM
Quote from: The Larch on November 03, 2009, 01:24:04 PM
So?
I laugh at the idea of a Spaniard being in favour of using the word 'conservation' in relation to fisheries.
You shouldn't.
345 Votes total
29 votes: France, Germany, Italy, and the United Kingdom, = 8.41% each (116 votes for 33.62% amongst the 4 largest countries).
27 votes: Spain and Poland, = 7.83% each
14 votes: Romania, = 4.06%
13 votes: The Netherlands, = 3.77%
12 votes: Belgium, the Czech Republic, Greece, Hungary, and Portugal, =3.48% each
10 votes: Austria, Bulgaria, and Sweden, = 2.90% each
7 votes: Denmark, Finland, Ireland, Lithuania, and Slovakia, = 2.03% each
4 votes: Cyprus, Estonia, Latvia, Luxembourg, and Slovenia, = 1.16% each
3 votes: Malta. =0.87%
... you know, in case you were wondering.
However, thanks to the double majority and their big population (53.6%), the four big countries can block every legislation.
Quote from: Zanza on November 03, 2009, 02:14:29 PM
However, thanks to the double majority and their big population, the four big countries can block every legislation.
How often do France, Germany, Italy and the UK agree?
Quote from: Jacob on November 03, 2009, 02:15:38 PMHow often do France, Germany, Italy and the UK agree?
I don't have numbers, but generally a lot of stuff the EU does is consensual, even with the majority voting rules. So I guess they agree most of the time.
That said, there are no real fixed alliances between countries in the EU anymore. The old Franco-German "engine" is no more.
Simple majority for everything, or do some things require a super majority?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 03, 2009, 02:47:28 PM
Simple majority for everything, or do some things require a super majority?
The "simple" majority is actually this:
* To pass: Majority of countries (55% or 72%) representing 65% of the population or condition to block not met
* To block: At least 4 countries against the proposal or in cases where, under the Treaties, not all members participate the minimum number of members representing more than 35% of the population of the participating Member States, plus one member are against the proposal
But there are also some decisions that need unanimity, i.e. 100%. Examples are institutional changes, new countries joining, defense and security policy, etc.
Here is David Cameron explaining his future EU policy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZUOkGxGUVs
:lol:
Good stuff.
QuoteTories rule out treaty referendum
Mr Hague says it is a 'bad day for democracy'
The Conservatives will not hold a referendum on the EU treaty if they win a general election, shadow foreign secretary William Hague has announced.
Mr Hague said ratification of the treaty by the Czech Republic - the last EU country to do so - meant the Tory campaign for a referendum "ends today".
He said Tory leader David Cameron would set out details of a new policy on Europe on Wednesday.
Mr Cameron has been under pressure to hold a post-ratification referendum.
Eurosceptics in his own party have accused him of reneging on a "cast iron" guarantee made in 2007 to hold a referendum on any treaty that emerged from EU talks if he became prime minister.
Mr Cameron said the treaty passing into European law would "create a new situation" and he would set out his response in a speech at 1600 GMT on Wednesday.
'Passionate belief'
It is believed he could pledge to repatriate some powers from Europe and hold a referendum on any future treaty.
Mr Hague said the Conservatives' hand had been forced by Czech President Vaclav Klaus's decision earlier on Tuesday to sign the treaty, which is now set to come into force across Europe on 1 December.
He told the BBC: "What has happened today means that it is no longer possible to have a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty.
"We have campaigned for that referendum for many years, we believe passionately that there should have been a referendum so that the British people could be consulted.
"But now that the treaty is going to become European law and is going to enter into force, that means that a referendum can no longer prevent the creation of the President of the European Council, the loss of British national veto.
"These things will already have happened and a referendum cannot unwind them or prevent them - and that means that our campaign for a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty therefore comes to an end today. We think that is a bad day for democracy."
Mr Hague said the Conservatives would "not let people forget whose fault that was," adding: "Gordon Brown and the Labour Party promised people a referendum at the last election and people have never been consulted in a referendum or a general election."
'Not fit'
Foreign Secretary David Miliband said: "So much for David Cameron's cast-iron guarantee to hold a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty.
"But he is still not being honest with people. The fact is you can't simply opt out of treaty obligations because to do so you need the agreement of the 26 other member states.
"David Cameron's position on Europe is false and dangerous. He is willing to risk Britain's standing and the rights of British people because he is still not prepared to stand up to the right of his own party."
Labour insists the Lisbon Treaty is not the same as the defunct constitutional treaty, on which it had promised voters a say.
Liberal Democrat foreign affairs spokesman Edward Davey said earlier that if Mr Cameron could not make his position on Europe clear "he is not fit for government".
'Badly advised'
UK Independence Party leader Nigel Farage said: "Mr Hague says it is 'no longer possible' to have a referendum.
"Well, to me and millions of others it is apparent that it is no longer possible to trust the Tory party or David Cameron when they make promises about Europe."
Eurosceptic Conservative MP Bill Cash said he had written to Mr Cameron urging him to "reconsider" his decision not to hold a referendum, saying the Tory leader had been "badly advised".
Sources say there is likely to be an EU summit next week to discuss who will fill the posts of President of the European Council and High Representative for Foreign Affairs, which will be created when the treaty comes into force.
Former UK Prime Minister Tony Blair is widely seen as a candidate for president.
Despite his insistence that he is "not available" to take the job, David Miliband is being considered as a possible High Representative - in effect Europe's first foreign minister, sources have told the BBC.
God, that must be embarassing for the Tories. :bowler:
Quote from: The Larch on November 03, 2009, 01:36:00 PM
Quote from: Neil on November 03, 2009, 01:29:53 PM
Quote from: The Larch on November 03, 2009, 01:24:04 PM
So?
I laugh at the idea of a Spaniard being in favour of using the word 'conservation' in relation to fisheries.
You shouldn't.
Of course I should. Spaniards are the Great Enemy of the Newfoundlanders, and I happen to live in the largest population centre of Newfoundlanders.
Quote from: The Larch on November 03, 2009, 01:36:00 PM
Quote from: Neil on November 03, 2009, 01:29:53 PM
I laugh at the idea of a Spaniard being in favour of using the word 'conservation' in relation to fisheries.
You shouldn't.
Spain doesn't exactly have a reputation for responsible stewardship of ocean resources.
Spain sucks.
Spain, KY sucks too. Or it would if there were such a place.
Quote from: Neil on November 03, 2009, 03:59:43 PMOf course I should. Spaniards are the Great Enemy of the Newfoundlanders, and I happen to live in the largest population centre of Newfoundlanders.
You're aware that things have been patched up between Canada and Spain in fishing stuff since the 90s, and that there's no real beef anymore, right?
Quote from: Jacob on November 03, 2009, 04:29:46 PM
Quote from: The Larch on November 03, 2009, 01:36:00 PM
Quote from: Neil on November 03, 2009, 01:29:53 PM
I laugh at the idea of a Spaniard being in favour of using the word 'conservation' in relation to fisheries.
You shouldn't.
Spain doesn't exactly have a reputation for responsible stewardship of ocean resources.
Which of course means that each and every single one of us is radically opposed to proper environmental stewardship and resource conservation, right? :rolleyes:
I didn't expect that from you, Jacob.
Anyway, I guess the Czechs have chosen Option A.
Quote from: The Larch on November 03, 2009, 05:09:21 PMWhich of course means that each and every single one of us is radically opposed to proper environmental stewardship and resource conservation, right? :rolleyes:
I didn't expect that from you, Jacob.
No it doesn't. I was just hoping you'd elaborate a bit on the current state of conservation in Spain and in Europe. I know it's not the norm on Languish (and perhaps I could've been more explicit), but it wasn't meant to be a potshot but rather an opportunity for you to elaborate :)
Quote from: The Larch on November 03, 2009, 05:05:35 PM
Quote from: Neil on November 03, 2009, 03:59:43 PMOf course I should. Spaniards are the Great Enemy of the Newfoundlanders, and I happen to live in the largest population centre of Newfoundlanders.
You're aware that things have been patched up between Canada and Spain in fishing stuff since the 90s, and that there's no real beef anymore, right?
There can never be peace so long as a single Iberian lives! Or somebody that speaks one of their ridiculous languages.
Quote from: Neil on November 03, 2009, 05:42:01 PM
There can never be peace so long as a single Iberian lives! Or somebody that speaks one of their ridiculous languages.
Throw in speakers of all the Latin-based languages.
A thought- doesn't this treaty remove the block on further members joining?
Wonder how long it'll be before Croatia and Iceland enter....
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on November 03, 2009, 05:59:50 PM
Quote from: Neil on November 03, 2009, 05:42:01 PM
There can never be peace so long as a single Iberian lives! Or somebody that speaks one of their ridiculous languages.
Throw in speakers of all the Latin-based languages.
becomes a bit iffy for the anglos then what with all the french stuff they have in their language :p. Better make sure and get rid of it too then :p
Quote from: Tyr on November 03, 2009, 07:22:28 PM
A thought- doesn't this treaty remove the block on further members joining?
Wonder how long it'll be before Croatia and Iceland enter....
Croatia will join in 2012, Iceland as well if their populace votes for it in a referendum.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on November 04, 2009, 01:27:50 AM
becomes a bit iffy for the anglos then what with all the french stuff they have in their language :p. Better make sure and get rid of it too then :p
English speakers are fine. English speakers educated in French schools are what I had in mind. :P
Quote from: The Larch on November 03, 2009, 05:05:35 PM
Quote from: Neil on November 03, 2009, 03:59:43 PMOf course I should. Spaniards are the Great Enemy of the Newfoundlanders, and I happen to live in the largest population centre of Newfoundlanders.
You're aware that things have been patched up between Canada and Spain in fishing stuff since the 90s, and that there's no real beef anymore, right?
There's no real cod anymore, either, now :( :lol:
Quote from: Jacob on November 03, 2009, 05:18:02 PM
No it doesn't. I was just hoping you'd elaborate a bit on the current state of conservation in Spain and in Europe. I know it's not the norm on Languish (and perhaps I could've been more explicit), but it wasn't meant to be a potshot but rather an opportunity for you to elaborate :)
That same thing happens to me every time I try to ask a question here: people always assume it's a loaded one.