I came across a link to an archive of Soviet paintings for WW2; it's truly amazing stuff; I choked a couple of times looking at some of these.
http://www.allworldwars.com/Soviet%20War%20Paintings.html
And it has the best "Oh snap!" moment ever, depicting German prisoners of War marching through the capital.
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The title? "They Saw Moscow."
Bookmarked. Very nice. Thanks
Very nice. Many of those paintings are surprisingly effective.
Quote from: Faeelin on October 28, 2009, 02:03:36 PM
I came across a link to an archive of Soviet paintings for WW2; it's truly amazing stuff; I choked a couple of times looking at some of these.
http://www.allworldwars.com/Soviet%20War%20Paintings.html
And it has the best "Oh snap!" moment ever, depicting German prisoners of War marching through the capital.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.allworldwars.com%2Fimage%2F008%2FSovietPictures153.jpg&hash=20d3dacd6f6746a1df9a01b5dee856e283ec5996)
The title? "They Saw Moscow."
Yea warcrimes? :huh:
I too choked a couple of times. Communism ftl.
Quote from: derspiess on October 28, 2009, 02:52:17 PM
Yea warcrimes? :huh:
You know, as war crimes in WW2 go, using prisoners from an army led with the goal of enslaving the peoples of Eastern Europe in a parade is pretty low on the list.
The Soviet Union, I suppose, did not have the goal of enslaving the peoples of eastern europe, but it just happened to work out that way :)
Quote from: Faeelin on October 28, 2009, 02:03:36 PM
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The title? "They Saw Moscow."
I wonder how many of them ever saw Germany again.
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:cry:
Quote from: Faeelin on October 28, 2009, 03:23:27 PM
You know, as war crimes in WW2 go, using prisoners from an army led with the goal of enslaving the peoples of Eastern Europe in a parade is pretty low on the list.
Still a warcrime. Not to mention what happened to them after the parade, as Berkut alluded to.
Quote from: Lettow77 on October 28, 2009, 03:29:36 PM
The Soviet Union, I suppose, did not have the goal of enslaving the peoples of eastern europe, but it just happened to work out that way :)
It did? I must have missed when that happened.
Quote from: Tyr on October 28, 2009, 04:10:34 PM
It did? I must have missed when that happened.
LOL were you born: after the cold war?
Probably most of them survived. This was 1944, and those that marched weren't wounded or diseased, so they were even less likely to be among those that died in captivity.
Quote from: DGuller on October 28, 2009, 04:14:07 PM
Probably most of them survived. This was 1944, and those that marched weren't wounded or diseased, so they were even less likely to be among those that died in captivity.
Yay, just 10ish years left in camps!
Quote from: The Brain on October 28, 2009, 04:15:19 PM
Quote from: DGuller on October 28, 2009, 04:14:07 PM
Probably most of them survived. This was 1944, and those that marched weren't wounded or diseased, so they were even less likely to be among those that died in captivity.
Yay, just 10ish years left in camps!
It toughened them up.
Quote from: derspiess on October 28, 2009, 04:08:27 PM
Still a warcrime.
:o
What kind of triumph would it be without a parade of exotic prisoners?
Am I the only one who finds it a little silly to complain about parading prisoners during WWII? If I were a German POW, the parade would probably be the most pleasant part of my captivity. If I were a Soviet POW in German hands, I would be wishing that I were in shape to be in such a parade.
Yeah...what's the big deal. It was summer in Moscow. Languish in a crowded gulag in Siberia, or go for a nice walk? They took them through the nice touristy parts of Moscow too. Very nice of them. Try do that now, it would cost you an arm and a leg. Uncle Joe was nothing if not a nice, friendly dictator. He even offered to put most of them up in Russia for life.
Seriously if I was captured by the Soviets as a Axis soldier I would be delighted if the worst that happened to me was marching in a parade.
Quote from: Josephus on October 28, 2009, 04:44:15 PM
Languish in a crowded gulag in Siberia,
They had internet in those gulags? Man Stalin was so thoughtful.
Quote from: Valmy on October 28, 2009, 04:45:20 PM
Quote from: Josephus on October 28, 2009, 04:44:15 PM
Languish in a crowded gulag in Siberia,
They had internet in those gulags? Man Stalin was so thoughtful.
He wasn't that thoughtful, it was 56k.
In Soviet Russia, internet downloads you.
It is certainly the case that no matter how bad the German POWs had it at the hands of the Russian captors, they were a hell of a lot better off than the Soviet POWs in German hands were.
Quote from: derspiess on October 28, 2009, 04:13:16 PM
Quote from: Tyr on October 28, 2009, 04:10:34 PM
It did? I must have missed when that happened.
LOL were you born: after the cold war?
As bad as things may have been for people in the eastern block poor conditions generally fell a long long way short of actual slavery.
Their destiny was not their own, and exchange for their labour the state provided for their needs, albeit with shoddy and cheaply produced amenities.
I mean, it looks like slavery and it sounds like slavery, but infact it is communism, which is worse.
Quote from: Lettow77 on October 28, 2009, 05:20:47 PM
Their destiny was not their own, and exchange for their labour the state provided for their needs, albeit with shoddy and cheaply produced amenities.
I mean, it looks like slavery and it sounds like slavery, but infact it is communism, which is worse.
Not really no.
Emo fight?
Quote from: Berkut on October 28, 2009, 03:40:00 PM
Quote from: Faeelin on October 28, 2009, 02:03:36 PM
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The title? "They Saw Moscow."
I wonder how many of them ever saw Germany again.
I wonder how many of them never even got the chance to execute a Jew or other undesirable.
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on October 28, 2009, 05:53:34 PM
I wonder how many of them never even got the chance to execute a Jew or other undesirable.
:cry:
They died before really knowing the joy of being a Nazi.
Or shit on the chest of another woman. :cry:
Quote from: Ed Anger on October 28, 2009, 05:59:00 PM
Or shit on the chest of another woman. :cry:
Tragic.
for the women, I mean.
Quote from: DGuller on October 28, 2009, 04:41:06 PM
Am I the only one who finds it a little silly to complain about parading prisoners during WWII? If I were a German POW, the parade would probably be the most pleasant part of my captivity. If I were a Soviet POW in German hands, I would be wishing that I were in shape to be in such a parade.
Yes, the Soviets treated the Germans quite well. I remember learning in history class that out of the 90,000 (or so) Germans taken prisoner at Stalingrad only 5,000 survived the 10 years to be released back to Germany.
It must have been such a worker's paradise that the other 85,000 refused to leave.
But the Russians were the good guys in WW2! How dare you.
Quote from: Strix on October 28, 2009, 06:46:06 PM
Quote from: DGuller on October 28, 2009, 04:41:06 PM
Am I the only one who finds it a little silly to complain about parading prisoners during WWII? If I were a German POW, the parade would probably be the most pleasant part of my captivity. If I were a Soviet POW in German hands, I would be wishing that I were in shape to be in such a parade.
Yes, the Soviets treated the Germans quite well. I remember learning in history class that out of the 90,000 (or so) Germans taken prisoner at Stalingrad only 5,000 survived the 10 years to be released back to Germany.
It must have been such a worker's paradise that the other 85,000 refused to leave.
Where did I say that the Soviets treated the Germans well?
Quote from: Faeelin on October 28, 2009, 02:03:36 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.allworldwars.com%2Fimage%2F008%2FSovietPictures153.jpg&hash=20d3dacd6f6746a1df9a01b5dee856e283ec5996)
The title? "They Saw Moscow."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MD9fqcFijUA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MD9fqcFijUA) :cool:
Quote from: Tyr on October 28, 2009, 04:10:34 PM
Quote from: Lettow77 on October 28, 2009, 03:29:36 PM
The Soviet Union, I suppose, did not have the goal of enslaving the peoples of eastern europe, but it just happened to work out that way :)
It did? I must have missed when that happened.
You're so ridiculous when you say things like this I wonder if you're a parody. :lol:
Quote from: Strix on October 28, 2009, 06:46:06 PM
Yes, the Soviets treated the Germans quite well. I remember learning in history class that out of the 90,000 (or so) Germans taken prisoner at Stalingrad only 5,000 survived the 10 years to be released back to Germany.
It must have been such a worker's paradise that the other 85,000 refused to leave.
Think of it as a really bad road game.
Quote from: Strix on October 28, 2009, 06:46:06 PM
Quote from: DGuller on October 28, 2009, 04:41:06 PM
Am I the only one who finds it a little silly to complain about parading prisoners during WWII? If I were a German POW, the parade would probably be the most pleasant part of my captivity. If I were a Soviet POW in German hands, I would be wishing that I were in shape to be in such a parade.
Yes, the Soviets treated the Germans quite well. I remember learning in history class that out of the 90,000 (or so) Germans taken prisoner at Stalingrad only 5,000 survived the 10 years to be released back to Germany.
It must have been such a worker's paradise that the other 85,000 refused to leave.
Most died of typus and malnutrition resulting from the battle. The Germans captured at Stalingrad were in really poor shape. A major die off was all but inevitable. Officers had a 50% chance of survival, enlisted 10%. Guess who was better fed in the siege?
Quote from: Razgovory on October 28, 2009, 09:05:57 PM
Quote from: Strix on October 28, 2009, 06:46:06 PM
Quote from: DGuller on October 28, 2009, 04:41:06 PM
Am I the only one who finds it a little silly to complain about parading prisoners during WWII? If I were a German POW, the parade would probably be the most pleasant part of my captivity. If I were a Soviet POW in German hands, I would be wishing that I were in shape to be in such a parade.
Yes, the Soviets treated the Germans quite well. I remember learning in history class that out of the 90,000 (or so) Germans taken prisoner at Stalingrad only 5,000 survived the 10 years to be released back to Germany.
It must have been such a worker's paradise that the other 85,000 refused to leave.
Most died of typus and malnutrition resulting from the battle. The Germans captured at Stalingrad were in really poor shape. A major die off was all but inevitable. Officers had a 50% chance of survival, enlisted 10%. Guess who was better fed in the siege?
That doesn't disqualify the horrid conditions they were kept in as prisoners until the fucking 1950s, you ass.
Quote from: Berkut on October 28, 2009, 04:52:02 PM
It is certainly the case that no matter how bad the German POWs had it at the hands of the Russian captors, they were a hell of a lot better off than the Soviet POWs in German hands were.
I suppose my thing is that whiel I recognize the USSR was an evil monstrous regime, the Soviet people themselves fought a struggle to the death to ensure their children would not be serfs for Nazi farmers, unable to read or write, exterminated in the millions for a state that aimed to create golgotha on Earth.
But YMMV.
Quote from: Faeelin on October 28, 2009, 09:26:01 PM
I suppose my thing is that whiel I recognize the USSR was an evil monstrous regime, the Soviet people themselves fought a struggle to the death to ensure their children would not be serfs for Nazi farmers, unable to read or write, exterminated in the millions for a state that aimed to create golgotha on Earth.
As opposed to, say, ensuring their children would not be serfs for collective farms, unable to read or write, exterminated in the millions for a man named Stalin that aimed to create Golgotha on Earth.
Quote from: CountDeMoney
That doesn't disqualify the horrid conditions they were kept in as prisoners until the fucking 1950s, you ass.
No argument.
Our point, is, though, that at least, starving as they might have been, they were let out for some excercise from time to time. After all, nothing beats marching up and down the square.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLJ8ILIE780 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLJ8ILIE780)
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 28, 2009, 09:32:19 PM
Quote from: Faeelin on October 28, 2009, 09:26:01 PM
I suppose my thing is that whiel I recognize the USSR was an evil monstrous regime, the Soviet people themselves fought a struggle to the death to ensure their children would not be serfs for Nazi farmers, unable to read or write, exterminated in the millions for a state that aimed to create golgotha on Earth.
As opposed to, say, ensuring their children would not be serfs for collective farms, unable to read or write, exterminated in the millions for a man named Stalin that aimed to create Golgotha on Earth.
Soviet Union had near universal literacy rate, so just that already make life under Stalin better.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 28, 2009, 09:12:26 PM
That doesn't disqualify the horrid conditions they were kept in as prisoners until the fucking 1950s, you ass.
Most of the Stalingrad guys died well before that. There was a massive die off in the first few months.
Quote from: DGuller on October 28, 2009, 09:45:20 PM
Soviet Union had near universal literacy rate, so just that already make life under Stalin better.
How else could they be properly educated by readying Pravda everyday?
Speaking of Pravda, why in the world would anyone name a newspaper like that? Didn't anyone realize how Orwellian it sounded?
Most likely not, as it was founded in 1908.
I fee like posting in this thread, it's just so full of assholes it's hard to do so.
Quote from: DGuller on October 28, 2009, 10:24:38 PM
Speaking of Pravda, why in the world would anyone name a newspaper like that? Didn't anyone realize how Orwellian it sounded?
Its a really old Bolshevik symbol; the early Bolsheviks taught of the light of Pravda getting even with the capitalists and the dark of lies. It was semi-religious at first, as the Bolshevik's biggest supporters were largely retarded ex-farmers.
Besides, when Pravda started Orwellianism didn't exist outside of Kafka's head. They kind of helped invent it.
I'm no Brain. :cry:
Quote from: syk on October 29, 2009, 12:06:41 AM
I fee like posting in this thread, it's just so full of assholes it's hard to do so.
You've made your first step :hug:
Quote from: syk on October 29, 2009, 12:06:41 AM
I fee like posting in this thread, it's just so full of assholes it's hard to do so.
Too much competition?
Quote from: grumbler on October 29, 2009, 09:05:09 AM
Quote from: syk on October 29, 2009, 12:06:41 AM
I fee like posting in this thread, it's just so full of assholes it's hard to do so.
Too much competition?
I actually wanted to take the nazi care bear role.
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They deserved it.
Quote from: Grey Fox on October 29, 2009, 10:27:21 AM
They deserved it.
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That's right. Soviet Russia rapes you!
QuoteThey deserved it.
I thought the point of winning that war was to reject that kind of thinking.
Quote from: Warspite on October 29, 2009, 11:49:31 AM
I thought the point of winning that war was to reject that kind of thinking.
Well, in theory maybe :Embarrass:
Quote from: Warspite on October 29, 2009, 11:49:31 AM
QuoteThey deserved it.
I thought the point of winning that war was to reject that kind of thinking.
Stalin's regime was all about ruthless conquest. His barbarian horde subjects were more than willing to buy into it, and we (the west) did what we could to stay out of his way.
Hmmm.....ever heard of "socialism in one country"?
One of the unpleasant consequences of Hitler's vile stupidity was getting that Soviet policy to change.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on October 29, 2009, 12:07:30 PM
Hmmm.....ever heard of "socialism in one country"?
One of the unpleasant consequences of Hitler's vile stupidity was getting that Soviet policy to change.
I was really referring to the end of the war & beginning of the Cold War. But since you mentioned it, was it really socialism in one country or socialism in 1 country plus Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, half of Poland, Finland (attempted), and Ukraine?
Stalin, like a lot of Russians still do, saw Tsarist Russia as its natural borders. so, ya, "one country."
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on October 29, 2009, 12:07:30 PM
Hmmm.....ever heard of "socialism in one country"?
One of the unpleasant consequences of Hitler's vile stupidity was getting that Soviet policy to change.
Socialism in one country was always intended as a temporary state of affairs. Hitler's actions sped up the Soviet timetable, but didn't change any policies, IMO.
Quote from: derspiess on October 29, 2009, 12:04:54 PM
Quote from: Warspite on October 29, 2009, 11:49:31 AM
QuoteThey deserved it.
I thought the point of winning that war was to reject that kind of thinking.
Stalin's regime was all about ruthless conquest. His barbarian horde subjects were more than willing to buy into it, and we (the west) did what we could to stay out of his way.
Are you sure that you're not the one from Argentina?
I dunno, socialism in one country does still kind of hold valid. Even if things were all about Russia uber alles its better to have a eastern european buffer of the same ideology even if spreading that ideology isn't your primary goal.
It wasn't like they were important countries anyways. I mean really, nobody gives a shit about Poland, Hungary, Romania and what not.
Stalin was a cautious paranoid man who died (probably :D) of natural causes. I think that, without the push provided by the Nazis, he might have found that Socialism in one country suited him fine right until his end. Soviet expansionism apart from WW2-related Eastern european occupations was very limited in scope, maybe because whenever they tried they always achieved rather indifferent results.
Rather than Stalin's regime being all about ruthless conquest I would say it was all about ruthless internal repression and the preservation of Stalin's personal paramount role in the state. I accept that this may look a rather perverse opinion when the bugger occupied half of Europe :huh:; but having been forced to participate in a massive war of survival it would have been very curious for any Russian regime/state not to have arranged matters in Eastern Europe to it's own satisfaction.
Quote from: Josephus on October 29, 2009, 02:24:57 PM
It wasn't like they were important countries anyways. I mean really, nobody gives a shit about Poland, Hungary, Romania and what not.
I do. They have the hottest women.
Quote from: grumbler on October 29, 2009, 01:43:47 PM
One of the unpleasant consequences of Hitler's vile stupidity was getting that Soviet policy to change.
Socialism in one country was always intended as a temporary state of affairs. Hitler's actions sped up the Soviet timetable, but didn't change any policies, IMO.
[/quote]
I'm really trying to find any evidence of this, given how Soviet rearmament was tied directly to the rise of Nazism and the fact the USSR spent the 1930s pleading iwth teh west for a united front and collective security.
If it was, it certainly wasn't something Stalin was planning on doing for a while yet. By 1941, as we all know from playing HOI, the Soviet army was in disarray. Finland was a bust. It hardly looked like anything getting ready for world domination.