http://news.yahoo.com/s/usnews/20090910/ts_usnews/whichhighschoolstudentsaremostlikelytograduatefromcollege
QuoteParents: Stop fretting so much about which high school your youngsters attend or how they score on the SATs. If you want your student to make it to a bachelor's degree, it's far more important for him or her to earn at least B's in high school and reach for the best possible college. Oh, and saving a few thousand bucks by sending your kid to a community college could turn out to be an expensive mistake.
Some of the nation's best-respected educational researchers are likely to reconsider much conventional wisdom today with the release of surprising findings from an analysis of educational records of more than 200,000 freshmen who started at public four-year colleges in 1999.
In the new "Crossing the Finish Line," William Bowen, a former president of Princeton University, argues that so many undergrads are dropping out (44 percent) that the country is in danger of losing its competitive edge to other nations.
He and coauthor Michael McPherson, former president of Macalester College, warn that America is likely to fall even further behind in the educational race because coming crops of high schoolers are filled with the kinds of low-income and minority students who tend to have the least educational success. In fact, despite billions of dollars in financial aid and scores of government and private efforts, the college graduation rate for low-income Americans who are the first in their families to go to college has been falling. "We're not doing as good a job as we should of creating genuine opportunity. We haven't continued to make progress the way other places have," Bowen said in an interview. (Harvard doctoral candidate Matthew Chingos also contributed to the book.)
The new research finds distressing signs that demographic factors such as gender, race, and parental education play large roles in determining a student's fate, no matter how smart or hardworking the particular student is. Those from families with below-average earnings or parents who didn't finish college, as well as African-Americans, Hispanics, and males, are failing college at disproportionate rates, even when compared with students with similar grades and test scores. Wealthy undergrads earn 11 percent more degrees from flagship universities than comparable students from the poorest income quartile, for example. White men are 6 percent more likely to graduate than black men with similar grades and scores. Women earn degrees at much higher rates than men. Failing to open educational opportunities to all students will endanger "the long-term health of our country," the authors warn.
Their findings about the actions that parents, students, and politicians should--and shouldn't--take to fix the problems are already sparking controversy:
High school grades are key: High school grades are the single best gauge of how well a student will do in college, no matter how "easy" or "tough" the high school's grading system is. "High school grades measure a student's ability to 'get it done' in a more powerful way than do SAT scores. . . . They reveal qualities of motivation and perseverance--as well as the presence of good study habits and time management skills--that tell us a great deal about the chances that a student will complete a college program," Bowen writes.
But the nature of the high school doesn't make much difference: The size, location, and racial mix of a student's high school don't appear to influence his or her ability earn a college degree, the study finds. Students who attend wealthier high schools do seem to enjoy a slight edge in enrolling in college. And elite high schools appear to help the very best students succeed at the most selective public universities. Interestingly, an analysis of eighth-grade reading and math test scores in North Carolina found that they were far more significant predictors of college enrollment than most other factors, including high school characteristics and student race. (The authors didn't research the correlation between eighth-grade test scores and college graduation, however.) That doesn't mean students or teachers should cram for eighth-grade tests, though, says coauthor McPherson. "The high scores identify students who study hard, pay attention, and do their best. It's these qualities that parents and teachers should aim to develop. And if they succeed in doing that, then those students are likely to do better in their eighth-grade tests and in later life," McPherson says.
Students shouldn't settle for less in a college: Thousands of bright, qualified students apply only to lower-ranked schools where their grades and tests scores are above those of the average student. But the new study finds that those who attend such "safety" schools are far more likely to drop out than those who get into "reach" schools. "It is counterintuitive," Bowen says. "You might think that if Sally goes to a school where she is top dog, she will have a much easier time graduating. But that's not true. She has a better chance of graduating if she goes to school with other people as talented she is."
Admissions tests don't predict graduation: SAT and ACT test scores are no help in predicting who will graduate from many, if not most, colleges. The widely used tests do help identify those likely to succeed at elite schools, the study found. But for many less selective colleges, students with higher scores were actually more likely to drop out. Representatives for the testing organizations noted that the tests are designed to--and do--predict college freshmen's grades, not college graduation. "We would be the first to acknowledge that the tests are not a perfect prediction," says Jon Erickson, vice president of the organization that runs the ACT. But Erickson argues that standardized test scores are helpful because, for example, they allow college admission officers to account for grade inflation at different high schools.
True achievement tests are useful indicators: Advanced Placement scores tell colleges more about a student's ability to complete college than other tests, the study found. Advanced Placement courses directly match the curriculum for entry-level college courses, and, at many universities, students can earn credit hours for high scores on AP tests.
B minuses aren't good enough: The new research confirms other findings that students who earn at least a 3.0 grade-point average are far more likely to graduate from college than students just under that mark. At less selective colleges, for example, 58 percent of students who entered with a 3.0 to 3.3 GPA graduated, compared with only 47 percent of sub-B students. The gap was even bigger at more selective colleges. "High school grades are tremendously important. It will not do for high school students to believe that 'just getting through' is enough," Bowen says. "You've got to work. You've got to pay your dues. You've got to achieve. If you do, you will succeed."
Today's community colleges are not the best solution: Bright, well-prepared community college students are 36 percent less likely to make it through to a bachelor's than similarly qualified students who start their degrees at four-year schools. Bowen realizes that message is likely to rile politicians and students who are hoping to use community colleges to save money in this economy but notes that his findings confirm those of others: "It is pretty hard to argue with the data . . . . If you want a bachelor's and you can start out at a good four-year institution, that is what you should do."
Why do community college students fall by the educational wayside so often? Other research has shown the influence of motivated and challenging peers, who are not always present in community college classrooms. Many community college students also have complained over the years about the failure of their schools to direct them to classes that will count as transfer credits. In addition, Bowen says many students are probably put off by complicated transfer processes.
Spokesmen for community colleges were distressed by the findings. "Community college officials are acutely aware that they must do more to maximize the number of students who graduate; it's a huge and growing concern," says David Baime, the American Association of Community Colleges' vice president for government relations. But Baime says much of the problem is caused by "the utterly unjustifiable practices of many four-year institutions that prevent would-be community college transfers from enrolling with appropriate credit."
Cash helps but is not a cure-all: More generous scholarships, or lower net tuition prices, can boost graduation rates by 5 to 10 percent. But scholarships and true costs need to be communicated to parents far earlier than the current system's six-month lead, and much more clearly, the authors say. In addition, combining sufficient aid with extra support services for students and parents does even more to shepherd students through to graduation.
Some colleges are doing a much better job than others: Colleges where most students live on campus and schools that create "honors" groups and "learning communities" are far more successful at graduating students than other universities.
There is some hope: The graduation rate success of experiments such as the Posse program, which provides teams of 10 low-income and minority students at elite schools lots of scholarships, mentoring, counseling, and peer support, shows that "graduation rates can be increased substantially if enough resources--and creativity--are put to work," the authors say.
By this report, I suppose affirmative action should go away?
Actually, I want MORE affirmative action, MORE programs to let everyone into college. Really, it is pure self-interest on my part since I teach mostly 1st semester freshmen who will flunk out later, but still it makes sense to me.
Quote from: garbon on September 11, 2009, 12:07:25 PMWomen earn degrees at much higher rates than men.
Rise up against our feminist oppressors. :mad:
QuoteFailing to open educational opportunities to all students will endanger "the long-term health of our country," the authors warn.
How does this follow? In the same paragraph they point that all these kids given opportunities keep dropping out...
edit: Oh, those opportunities weren't genuine opportunities.
Kids should be required to go to Keggers more than study for the SAT Test. Yes, knowledge is a powerful tool but if you can't get up for class after drinking all night than it doesn't matter how high your SAT scores were. :cheers:
Let the devaluation of education continue. I don't really think it matters. There are much bigger problems than that.
Quote from: Strix on September 11, 2009, 12:14:34 PM
Yes, knowledge is a powerful tool but if you can't get up for class after drinking all night than it doesn't matter how high your SAT scores were. :cheers:
Why would a student need to go to class, in college? :huh:
huge percentages of first year students at 4 year institutions also drop out as undergrads. I don't think fingering community colleges as being "of less value" makes much sense.
it's the entire post secondary establishment. my impression is that high intakes of froshes is largely about revenue in order to pay people like PDH and my brother (who has a similar gig). meanwhile PDH et al use the teaching income to support their own professional academic work of arguably greater value and utility.
QuoteIf you want your student to make it to a bachelor's degree
:huh: Why the fuck would anyone...?
Interesting that the study doesn't mention "gifted and talented" kids. Last I heard, they had the highest college drop-out rate of any group regardless of SES status, race or gender.
EDIT: Disregard that statement. It actually had a great deal to do with the SES, race and gender of the gifted students. I must have mis-remembered:
http://gcq.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/44/4/261 (http://gcq.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/44/4/261)
QuoteGifted Dropouts: The Who and the Why
Joseph S. Renzulli
The University of Connecticut
Sunghee Park
The University of Connecticut
Two studies were conducted to obtain comprehensive information about ifted high school dropouts and to examine factors that are related to their dropout behavior using the Dropout and Student questionnaires of the National Education Longitudinal Study of 1988 (NELS:88). The results indicated that mwny gifted dropouts were from low socioeconomic-status families and racial minority groups; had parents with low levels of education; and participated less in extracurricular activities. Also, reasons for gifted male dropouts were More related to econornic issues, while reasons for gifted teniale dropouts were more related to personal issues, although both males and femiales were likely to offer school-related reasons. The logistic regression analysis results indicated that dropout behavior for gifted students was significantly related to students' educational aspirations. pregnancy or child-rearing, gender, father's highest level of education, and mother's highest level of education.
Yeah, Merri. I bet juvenile delinquents fare much better than the gifted and talented kids. You go on believing the dream, girl. :lmfao:
Edit: Also, I guess an article about the quality of education would carry more weight, if it wasn't full of typos.
Quote from: garbon on September 11, 2009, 12:07:25 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/usnews/20090910/ts_usnews/whichhighschoolstudentsaremostlikelytograduatefromcollege
QuoteAdmissions tests don't predict graduation: SAT and ACT test scores are no help in predicting who will graduate from many, if not most, colleges.
This statement, which flies in the face of hundreds, and maybe thousands, of studies of college success rates, makes me doubt the whole study.
I hate the influence of ACT and SAT on admissions, but have never been able to find a logical reason to challenge them - studies over decades have always shown that they are the single most accurate (though not, obviously, all
that accurate) predictor of student graduation rates.
The recent trend towards a near-100% participation in "SAT Cram" courses may make the decades of data obsolete, but I don't trust one limited study to reveal that.
Quote from: Martinus on September 11, 2009, 05:39:34 PM
Edit: Also, I guess an article about the quality of education would carry more weight, if it wasn't full of typos.
:face:
Uh, yeah. WTF is up with that?
Weird.
Uni is usually a in for a penny in for a pound buisness for the poor.
If you manage to scrape up the money and grades to get there you finish it.
I was part of a gifted and talented education program. :goodboy:
Quote from: Martinus on September 11, 2009, 05:39:34 PM
Yeah, Merri. I bet juvenile delinquents fare much better than the gifted and talented kids. You go on believing the dream, girl. :lmfao:
Edit: Also, I guess an article about the quality of education would carry more weight, if it wasn't full of typos.
Gifted kids do struggle at university, though. Most of the time, it's because they've never had to apply themselves, so when confronted with classes that don't come easily, they don't know how to study.
There was a study around a few years ago that showed that gifted kids had a slightly higher drop out rate than non-gifted kids, but I can't find it at the moment. I didn't remember SES, race, or gender being discussed in that study, but that doesn't mean those weren't factors.
Quote from: Tyr on September 11, 2009, 06:54:40 PM
Weird.
Uni is usually a in for a penny in for a pound buisness for the poor.
If you manage to scrape up the money and grades to get there you finish it.
In the US, things are a bit different. Something like 50% of the high school graduates attend college. Clearly, not all of them are prepared to succeed. A 44% dropout rate still leaves a 56% graduation rate, which translates to a college graduation rate equal to 28% of all high school graduates, which (if the old numbers I saw still hold true) is something like 100% better than the average for the OECD countries.
The question for the US is how to recognize and correct the admission of students not prepared to succeed in college.
Quote from: Tyr on September 11, 2009, 06:54:40 PM
Weird.
Uni is usually a in for a penny in for a pound buisness for the poor.
If you manage to scrape up the money and grades to get there you finish it.
Yeah. The drop-out rate in this country's low. I think around 7% but even that, I believe, disproportionately effects the poor.
Of course, not all poor kids who drop out of college do so because they can't cut it academically. Some of them end up having to drop out so that they can go to work full time.
Quote from: merithyn on September 11, 2009, 07:25:25 PM
Gifted kids do struggle at university, though. Most of the time, it's because they've never had to apply themselves, so when confronted with classes that don't come easily, they don't know how to study.
While not the case across the board (and certainly would have been different had a stuck in my CS track), I found the majority of classes that I took to require less personal application than my classes in high school.
If you have to apply yourself to get through university how exactly are you gifted?
Quote from: garbon on September 11, 2009, 07:04:03 PM
I was part of a gifted and talented education program. :goodboy:
WHAT HAPPEN
Quote from: merithyn on September 11, 2009, 07:25:25 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 11, 2009, 05:39:34 PM
Yeah, Merri. I bet juvenile delinquents fare much better than the gifted and talented kids. You go on believing the dream, girl. :lmfao:
Edit: Also, I guess an article about the quality of education would carry more weight, if it wasn't full of typos.
Gifted kids do struggle at university, though. Most of the time, it's because they've never had to apply themselves, so when confronted with classes that don't come easily, they don't know how to study.
There was a study around a few years ago that showed that gifted kids had a slightly higher drop out rate than non-gifted kids, but I can't find it at the moment. I didn't remember SES, race, or gender being discussed in that study, but that doesn't mean those weren't factors.
I was part of a gifted pupil programme at the elementary school and the high school, and I graduated from the uni with honors. In fact, I'd say the uni required less work than highschool or the elementary school.
I'm starting to get really sick of these over-targeted statistics. A pretty large percentage of the student body at my school (including me) already "fulfilled the prophecy" of dropping out and are returning to earn a degree; 17.8% of attending students were over 35 during the Fall 2008 semester:
http://www.njintouch.state.nj.us/highereducation/statistics/Enr2008Age.htm
Approximately 15% (about 50,000) of ALL public institutions' students in NJ were over the age of 35; I just wonder if the research reflects the huge number of returning students.
Quote from: garbon on September 12, 2009, 01:18:40 AM
While not the case across the board (and certainly would have been different had a stuck in my CS track), I found the majority of classes that I took to require less personal application than my classes in high school.
Yeap. There was little to no busy work in college compared to the mountain I would get in high school.
Quote from: The Brain on September 12, 2009, 02:39:15 AM
WHAT HAPPEN
When I moved to Massachusetts, they didn't have such a program.
Quote from: DontSayBanana on September 12, 2009, 09:16:12 AM
I'm starting to get really sick of these over-targeted statistics. A pretty large percentage of the student body at my school (including me) already "fulfilled the prophecy" of dropping out and are returning to earn a degree; 17.8% of attending students were over 35 during the Fall 2008 semester:
http://www.njintouch.state.nj.us/highereducation/statistics/Enr2008Age.htm
Approximately 15% (about 50,000) of ALL public institutions' students in NJ were over the age of 35; I just wonder if the research reflects the huge number of returning students.
Why would they? I don't think that the various people in that article would consider that as a positive.
QuoteFailing to open educational opportunities to all students will endanger "the long-term health of our country," the authors warn.
It sounds like lots of people are getting opportunities they just are not doing the work.
Quote from: Valmy on September 14, 2009, 08:38:07 AM
QuoteFailing to open educational opportunities to all students will endanger "the long-term health of our country," the authors warn.
It sounds like lots of people are getting opportunities they just are not doing the work.
Well, if you graduate from a crappy high school that really didn't do anything to educate you, and then you can't cut it at college, an argument can be made that you didn't have a real opportunity to succeed at college.
Quote from: dps on September 14, 2009, 01:14:03 PM
Well, if you graduate from a crappy high school that really didn't do anything to educate you, and then you can't cut it at college, an argument can be made that you didn't have a real opportunity to succeed at college.
QuoteHigh school grades are key: High school grades are the single best gauge of how well a student will do in college, no matter how "easy" or "tough" the high school's grading system is. "High school grades measure a student's ability to 'get it done' in a more powerful way than do SAT scores. . . . They reveal qualities of motivation and perseverance--as well as the presence of good study habits and time management skills--that tell us a great deal about the chances that a student will complete a college program," Bowen writes.
But the nature of the high school doesn't make much difference: The size, location, and racial mix of a student's high school don't appear to influence his or her ability earn a college degree, the study finds. Students who attend wealthier high schools do seem to enjoy a slight edge in enrolling in college. And elite high schools appear to help the very best students succeed at the most selective public universities. Interestingly, an analysis of eighth-grade reading and math test scores in North Carolina found that they were far more significant predictors of college enrollment than most other factors, including high school characteristics and student race. (The authors didn't research the correlation between eighth-grade test scores and college graduation, however.) That doesn't mean students or teachers should cram for eighth-grade tests, though, says coauthor McPherson. "The high scores identify students who study hard, pay attention, and do their best. It's these qualities that parents and teachers should aim to develop. And if they succeed in doing that, then those students are likely to do better in their eighth-grade tests and in later life," McPherson says.
I see nothing in that article that suggests that that is the factor. Rather that things like hard work and study habits are the predictors.
I worked with a "gifted" class earlier this year.
Dumbshits, 95% of them. Yeah, they have the intelligence and can grasp stuff better at an earlier age than the majority of their peers but they are completely dysfunctional.
I...
I got a B+?
*hyperventilate*
There was one kid though I hated, but only because I was jealous of him. :P He was like a star athlete (but of tennis, not a real sport), popular at the school, especially with the girls, too smart for anything the school could throw at him (instead of classwork in history, he just wrote term papers on each unit and pretty good ones at that for a 15 year old), and he played the violin very well. I was looking at my own high school experience like WTF.
At the end of the year though he ended up being accepted into some nerd school in New England, Exeter or something like that.
Quote from: Jaron on September 14, 2009, 02:48:49 PM
Yeah, they have the intelligence and can grasp stuff better at an earlier age than the majority of their peers but they are completely dysfunctional.
I...
I got a B+?
*hyperventilate*
We can't all set low standards for ourselves, like you do. -_-