Languish.org

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Caster Semenya is doing the image thing and got a makeover in a SAfrican magazine. She's got three times the testosterone of a normal female, but who gets more turned on by her Me or Martinus?

To be honest, I'm leaning towards Martinus.

voted tranny.

Still looks like a dude.

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He's a man baby

I've seen drag queens who looked way more feminine. This may of course be a hermaphrodite or a particularly masculine-looking woman, but all signs post to this being a dude.

For the record, guys in drag (while I find them entertaining as drag artists, and of course recognize their sartorial autonomy and gender identity) are one of the biggest turn-offs for me. So I'm afraid, Viking, that I am not turned on more than you are.

Quote from: Martinus on September 08, 2009, 10:14:07 AM
For the record, guys in drag (while I find them entertaining as drag artists, and of course recognize their sartorial autonomy and gender identity) are one of the biggest turn-offs for me. So I'm afraid, Viking, that I am not turned on more than you are.

Trying to pick up gay guys by dressing like a woman does seem particularly idiotic to me...but what do I know?  Clearly it helps them get something or they wouldn't do it.

Quote from: Valmy on September 08, 2009, 10:16:52 AM

Quote from: Martinus on September 08, 2009, 10:14:07 AM
For the record, guys in drag (while I find them entertaining as drag artists, and of course recognize their sartorial autonomy and gender identity) are one of the biggest turn-offs for me. So I'm afraid, Viking, that I am not turned on more than you are.

Trying to pick up gay guys by dressing like a woman does seem particularly idiotic to me...but what do I know?  Clearly it helps them get something or they wouldn't do it.

From what I understand, most don't do it to pick up gay guys.

However, apparently there is a whole category of "straight" men (called trannie chasers or clown fuckers) who have a fetish for a chick with a dick, which some drag queens exploit. From my anecdotal information (from the US gay talk shows), they are more numerous among Latino and black than white MSM* - could be a cultural thing against self-identification as gay.

*MSM meaning "Men having Sex with Men", not "Main Stream Media".

Quote from: Valmy on September 08, 2009, 10:16:52 AM
Trying to pick up gay guys by dressing like a woman does seem particularly idiotic to me...but what do I know?  Clearly it helps them get something or they wouldn't do it.

Presumably some people are attracted to androgynous figures. Heck, a lot of male "heart throbs" have pretty faces and slender bodies, but that doesn't mean the women who are into them are lesbians.

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 08, 2009, 10:22:33 AM
Presumably some people are attracted to androgynous figures. Heck, a lot of male "heart throbs" have pretty faces and slender bodies, but that doesn't mean the women who are into them are lesbians.

No more than being attracted to amazon women makes one gay.

However, dressing up like a woman does not make one look androgynous it makes one look like a female.

Looks like a dude, but could be an ugly chick.  Chyna looks even more ridiculous than that.

Quote from: Martinus on September 08, 2009, 10:19:37 AM
However, apparently there is a whole category of "straight" men (called trannie chasers or clown fuckers)

I have heard of such people but... :lol: to that name.


I've always wondered: would trannys be popular with bisexuals?
I'd guess it gives them all the hotness of a girl but with one of those dick things the gays seem to like so much.
___



Its a bloke.
Needs implants. Then at least attention will be taken from the face.

Quote from: Valmy on September 08, 2009, 10:28:28 AM
However, dressing up like a woman does not make one look androgynous it makes one look like a female.

Not always, often it just makes them look like men in women's clothes(Rodman or Giuliani for example)  :lol: But there's far more than 2 different sets of aesthetic sensibilities and not all can be neatly classified as male or female.

Quote from: Valmy on September 08, 2009, 10:28:28 AM
However, dressing up like a woman does not make one look androgynous it makes one look like a female.

Some are into that.

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 08, 2009, 10:44:08 AM
Not always, often it just makes them look like men in women's clothes(Rodman or Giuliani for example)  :lol: But there's far more than 2 different sets of aesthetic sensibilities and not all can be neatly classified as male or female.

Thanks Buddha :P

As I said clearly it helps them get something or they wouldn't do it.

Meh. Not into black women.

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 08, 2009, 10:44:08 AM

Quote from: Valmy on September 08, 2009, 10:28:28 AM
However, dressing up like a woman does not make one look androgynous it makes one look like a female.

Not always, often it just makes them look like men in women's clothes(Rodman or Giuliani for example)  :lol: But there's far more than 2 different sets of aesthetic sensibilities and not all can be neatly classified as male or female.

I don't think it is the question of "it makes them look like" but rather that people often confuse these things.

Transgendered people. cross-dressers, drag queens and androgyns are completely different things, and we lump them together only because that's how they were traditionally perceived. For the record, the same really goes for lumping all GLBT folk together - the "T" is really a different animal from the "GLB".

The G is a bit different from L. The B's should really just be split between G and L.

My perception at least is that most guys who self-identify as 'gay' prefer guys who appear more typically masculine.

Quote from: garbon on September 08, 2009, 05:28:43 PM
The G is a bit different from L. The B's should really just be split between G and L.

Still, each of the G, L and B deals with sexuality/sexual attraction, whereas the T deals with the gender identity which is something else.

Quote from: Malthus on September 08, 2009, 05:29:15 PM
My perception at least is that most guys who self-identify as 'gay' prefer guys who appear more typically masculine.

Indeed. That is why gender scholars came up with the "MSM" concept, which captures more than just gay men (for example, homosexual and bisexual men from cultures that do not have the concept of "gay" like the Arabic/Muslim ones; or men in the West, usually from a sub-culture with a strong machismo element, such as Latino, who do not want to identify as gay). It appears that for such men, homosexual desire often manifests itself by an attraction to men with more feminine/androgynous qualities.

On a side note, I read recently something about the fetal development of humans that could, imo, shed some light on how sexuality appears.

Essentially, it appears that the fetus starts as "female" and only then either stays as a female or develops/mutates into male. It's not such a stretch of imagination from that point to consider that the process of transformation from a female to male can be partial, thus creating a continuum of a straight woman -> a lesbian -> a gay man -> a straight man.

"Glamour girl"... :lol:

S/he does look like something out of the WNBA, for whatever that's worth.

What was the upshot on this story?  Is he/she a tranny, or a genetic freak, or what?

Quote from: Martinus on September 08, 2009, 05:31:46 PM

Quote from: garbon on September 08, 2009, 05:28:43 PM
The G is a bit different from L. The B's should really just be split between G and L.

Still, each of the G, L and B deals with sexuality/sexual attraction, whereas the T deals with the gender identity which is something else.

The Ts get lumped in because they're usually attracted to people of the same sex they actually are. :contract:

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 08, 2009, 07:32:12 PM
The Ts get lumped in because they're usually attracted to people of the same sex they actually are. :contract:

Really?

Quote from: Valmy on September 08, 2009, 09:46:18 PM

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 08, 2009, 07:32:12 PM
The Ts get lumped in because they're usually attracted to people of the same sex they actually are. :contract:

Really?

I'm going to assume you're not being sarcastic. I did see a m-to-f lesbian on a talk show once, but they seem to be the exception.

If you're asking if I think gender is a matter of chromosomes and not a psychological state, then yes, really. :mellow:

Given this conversation I really recommend Paris is Burning, if any of you get the chance:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Is_Burning_%28film%29

I saw a link Foxnews.com had to some magazine's site on the "10 Hottest Women in Sports" with both the Williams sisters in there.  They obviously were not looking around too hard.

Quote from: Tonitrus link=email]topic[/email]=2171.msg104065#msg104065 date=1252469970]
I saw a link Foxnews.com had to some magazine's site on the "10 Hottest Women in Sports" with both the Williams sisters in there.  They obviously were not looking around too hard.

I've heard it argued that there is some kind of racial component and that white people are really only attracted to black women who look like white women, like Rashida Jones and Halle Berry.  I think there is probably some truth to this; I find my self substantially less attracted to women of Central/South-American Native, Austronesian, and various peoples of Sub-Saharan African descent. 

I think even the gay men on here would probably admit that
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.alldesktopentertainment.com%2Fdownload%2Fmaria-sharapova%2Fmaria-sharapova-3.jpg&hash=0ebea4b0c26c8b5f89833ee585ef08a43d5d3395)
looks better than
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That said, I really don't buy that there is a racial component to the controversy over this South African "girl".  The vast majority of men don't look anywhere near that masculine. 

Quote from: Queequeg on September 09, 2009, 12:20:59 AM

I've heard it argued that there is some kind of racial component and that white people are really only attracted to black women who look like white women, like Rashida Jones

:blink:

Is she really black or is it just a one drop kind of thing?

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 09, 2009, 12:25:10 AM

Quote from: Queequeg on September 09, 2009, 12:20:59 AM

I've heard it argued that there is some kind of racial component and that white people are really only attracted to black women who look like white women, like Rashida Jones

:blink:

Is she really black or is it just a one drop kind of thing?

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With her arguably equally cute (and more obviously part African-American) sister.  Half Jewish, half Black. 

Rashida got the better of the mixture.

Also, that doesn't explain why other races also seem to prefer white chicks. the old sterotype of rich black men marrying white chicks or asian business men who are obsessed with white women.


*edit* to clarify, the stereotypes seem to imply that when give the opertunity they'll go for the white women over women of their own race.

Quote from: HVC on September 09, 2009, 12:32:32 AM
Also, that doesn't explain why other races also seem to prefer white chicks. the old sterotype of rich black men marrying white chicks or asian business men who are obsessed with white women.


*edit* to clarify, the stereotypes seem to imply that when give the opertunity they'll go for the white women over women of their own race.

:lol:

Quote from: garbon on September 09, 2009, 12:42:46 AM

Quote from: HVC on September 09, 2009, 12:32:32 AM
Also, that doesn't explain why other races also seem to prefer white chicks. the old sterotype of rich black men marrying white chicks or asian business men who are obsessed with white women.


*edit* to clarify, the stereotypes seem to imply that when give the opertunity they'll go for the white women over women of their own race.

:lol:

It's 1:30 in the morning, and i haven't slept in a while, so my theorizing on race relations is probably way off :lol:

Quote from: HVC on September 09, 2009, 12:32:32 AM
Rashida got the better of the mixture.

Also, that doesn't explain why other races also seem to prefer white chicks. the old sterotype of rich black men marrying white chicks or asian business men who are obsessed with white women.


*edit* to clarify, the stereotypes seem to imply that when give the opertunity they'll go for the white women over women of their own race.

Traditional ideas of beauty in most cultures; paler=hotter.

Quote from: TonitrusI saw a link Foxnews.com had to some magazine's site on the "10 Hottest Women in Sports" with both the Williams sisters in there.  They obviously were not looking around too hard.

I'm sure one of them at least is not too bad.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 08, 2009, 07:14:33 PM
What was the upshot on this story?  Is he/she a tranny, or a genetic freak, or what?

Genetic freak, apparently. Way more testosterone than a normal woman, still a lot less than a normal man.

Maybe she's just someone whose genetic make-up and training have allowed her to be more talented in her chosen field than most.

Quote from: HVC on September 09, 2009, 12:32:32 AM
Rashida got the better of the mixture.

Also, that doesn't explain why other races also seem to prefer white chicks. the old sterotype of rich black men marrying white chicks or asian business men who are obsessed with white women.


*edit* to clarify, the stereotypes seem to imply that when give the opertunity they'll go for the white women over women of their own race.

What about White guys who obsess about Asian women?

I think at least part of the attraction both ways is the lure of the exotic, so long as it is not *too* exotic.  :D

Quote from: HVC on September 09, 2009, 12:32:32 AM
Rashida got the better of the mixture.

Also, that doesn't explain why other races also seem to prefer white chicks. the old sterotype of rich black men marrying white chicks or asian business men who are obsessed with white women.


*edit* to clarify, the stereotypes seem to imply that when give the opertunity they'll go for the white women over women of their own race.

All Asian dudes I've ever known want to fuck a white chick, especially a blond, but all but one prefer Asian chicks in general. 

I think this has less to do with any racial preferences, and more to do with "culturalization".

The ideal of beauty is largely defined by images in popular culture, and there is certainly more "white" culture being projected to non-white people than vice versa, through movies and the like.

Quote from: DisturbedPervert on September 09, 2009, 08:13:27 AM
All Asian dudes I've ever known want to fuck a white chick, especially a blond, but all but one prefer Asian chicks in general. 

I can see that.  I would have to say most straight guys would like to fuck a chick from each major world racial group at least once.

Quote from: Martinus on September 09, 2009, 08:16:12 AM
I think this has less to do with any racial preferences, and more to do with "culturalization".

The ideal of beauty is largely defined by images in popular culture, and there is certainly more "white" culture being projected to non-white people than vice versa, through movies and the like.

I guess I do not get the distinction.  Why is it not a racial preference just because it is based on culture?  Does that mean nothing is a preference which has any possible cultural cause?

'I like chocolate' 'Um no you do not really like chocolate you are 'culturalized' to like chocolate.'


Anyway I do not even agree with the premise.  I think most people prefer mates that look sorta like them but may dabble in the exotic for fun.

Quote from: Martinus on September 09, 2009, 08:16:12 AM
I think this has less to do with any racial preferences, and more to do with "culturalization".

The ideal of beauty is largely defined by images in popular culture, and there is certainly more "white" culture being projected to non-white people than vice versa, through movies and the like.

This is, I think, a lot more true than a simple racial bias.  For instance, the BMI that men like in women has changed dramatically over the last 500 years, from the fatter the better (Suleyman the Magnificent, who probably had more oppurtunity with more types of women and men than really anyone but Ghenghis Khan, was desperately in love with a 500 pound Armenian woman he named "kuchuk shekerlik", little bit of sugar) to skeletal thinness. 

Spellus, that's because 500 years ago gay men didn't tell straight men what to admire in a woman.... instead they hid in monasteries.  :)

There's lots of horsey women out there, also lots of pretty boys, she falls into the former category for me

Quote from: Queequeg on September 09, 2009, 12:29:03 PM
This is, I think, a lot more true than a simple racial bias.  For instance, the BMI that men like in women has changed dramatically over the last 500 years, from the fatter the better (Suleyman the Magnificent, who probably had more oppurtunity with more types of women and men than really anyone but Ghenghis Khan, was desperately in love with a 500 pound Armenian woman he named "kuchuk shekerlik", little bit of sugar) to skeletal thinness. 

Strange I never found greek statues of Aphrodite incredibly obese.  And I sorta question that men today really like skeletal thinness.  That is just what the fashion industry likes.

Quote from: Queequeg on September 09, 2009, 12:29:03 PMSuleyman the Magnificent, who probably had more oppurtunity with more types of women and men than really anyone but Ghenghis Khan, was desperately in love with a 500 pound Armenian woman he named "kuchuk shekerlik", little bit of sugar

They have people like this today.  Some feeders even get off on getting their partner so fat they are immobile.

Quote from: Caliga on September 09, 2009, 12:30:34 PM
Spellus, that's because 500 years ago gay men didn't tell straight men what to admire in a woman.... instead they hid in monasteries.  :)

That's probably true for the West, but I'm pretty sure not for the court of Suleyman the Magnificent. In fact, gay men were probably running his court. :P

Quote from: Valmy on September 09, 2009, 12:34:41 PM

Strange I never found greek statues of Aphrodite incredibly obese.  And I sorta question that men today really like skeletal thinness.  That is just what the fashion industry likes.

Obviously they shift.
This is from 25,000 years ago. (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/50/Venus_von_Willendorf_01.jpg)
This is from 4th Century BC Greece. (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ee/Knidiska_Afrodite,_Nordisk_familjebok.png)

One of my favorite examples of how beauty can change is this:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.nationalgeographic.com%2Fnews%2F2007%2F12%2Fphotogalleries%2Fafghan-pictures%2Fimages%2Fprimary%2F6_461.jpg&hash=8bba7313067941ba337da6bc94c7a071c45a7253)

The upper image is obviously of Ancient Greek origin, but the latter is also of Hellenistic origin; it is Greco-Bactrian.   If you look closely, the techniques are also quite similar (Hellenistic Sculpture had a huge influence on Indian, and through Indian all Asian styles of sculpture; that's why Buddha has a Toga).  The difference is that the Bactrian ideal woman went from the Greek plump woman with small breasts to the seemingly more modern Bactrian ideal woman with fantastically huge breasts and a tiny waist. 

Is it me or does the second one look like a slightly chubby guy? :D

Awww, those crazy Greeks. :P

Quote from: Martinus on September 09, 2009, 12:49:36 PM

Quote from: Caliga on September 09, 2009, 12:30:34 PM
Spellus, that's because 500 years ago gay men didn't tell straight men what to admire in a woman.... instead they hid in monasteries.  :)

That's probably true for the West, but I'm pretty sure not for the court of Suleyman the Magnificent. In fact, gay men were probably running his court. :P

"Gay" is misleading.  It was pedarety-intensive.  After the relative heterosexuality of the Byzantine Period, the Turks began a renaissance of adolescent fucking. The Turks may have been able to take the Greek's language and religion, but never their love of boys!

Quote from: Martinus on September 09, 2009, 12:54:51 PM
Is it me or does the second one look like a slightly chubby guy? :D

Awww, those crazy Greeks. :P

The hips are too big.  I can't think of a culture that found boyish hips in women attractive, actually.  That seems pretty constant unless we get into Lolita-type creepy stuff. 

I have to say, the first photo is actually pretty sad and a little stomach turning.  I'm surprised they went with the caption "Wow! Look at her now!"  as the dress seems to remove all doubt in my mind about her masculine appearance; her shoulders are at least as broad as mine, maybe broader, I don't see any hint of breasts, her face is..well...flat and really really broad...I basically can't look at that photo and see any kind of woman, at least in the traditional sense.  I wonder if this was really the best picture, and if they just stuck with that caption so that they don't offend "her"?

Quote from: DisturbedPervert on September 09, 2009, 12:45:19 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on September 09, 2009, 12:29:03 PMSuleyman the Magnificent, who probably had more oppurtunity with more types of women and men than really anyone but Ghenghis Khan, was desperately in love with a 500 pound Armenian woman he named "kuchuk shekerlik", little bit of sugar

They have people like this today.  Some feeders even get off on getting their partner so fat they are immobile.

Indeed. My flat mate has a thing for very fat girls.
His last girl was very nice but...the beef. I guessed he just fell for her personality online or somesuch.
But then his next girl...She's even fatter and not so nice.
At least the first had the blessing of huge tits to go with the fatness, his new one is just fat.

The problem with being really fat is it covers up her secondary sexual characteristics.  I mean when a woman gets too obese her boobs and her hips just sorta get swallowed up in the formless mass.  When she has a healthy weight they stand out to be oogled.

Naturally if she gets too thin then they vanish again since she is a skeleton.

I prefer my women to be, you know, not disgustingly unhealthy either way.

Quote from: Caliga on September 09, 2009, 12:30:34 PM
Spellus, that's because 500 years ago gay men didn't tell straight men what to admire in a woman.... instead they hid in monasteries.  :)

Michelangelo's women are quite a bit more masculine than Kate Moss or Nicole Ritchie.

Quote from: Valmy on September 09, 2009, 12:34:41 PM
And I sorta question that men today really like skeletal thinness.  That is just what the fashion industry likes.

Ditto.

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 09, 2009, 02:27:23 PM

Quote from: Caliga on September 09, 2009, 12:30:34 PM
Spellus, that's because 500 years ago gay men didn't tell straight men what to admire in a woman.... instead they hid in monasteries.  :)

Michelangelo's women are quite a bit more masculine than Kate Moss or Nicole Ritchie.

are most of his models noble women getting portriats? If so it isn't his fault the rich italian families had ugly daughters lol

Quote from: HVC on September 09, 2009, 03:01:28 PM
are most of his models noble women getting portriats? If so it isn't his fault the rich italian families had ugly daughters lol

Nah, he mostly did religious themes.

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 09, 2009, 03:04:02 PM
Nah, he mostly did religious themes.

He still had to have models, I presume he didn't get Adam and God to manifest themselves before him.

Quote from: Valmy on September 09, 2009, 03:06:25 PM

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 09, 2009, 03:04:02 PM
Nah, he mostly did religious themes.

He still had to have models, I presume he didn't get Adam and God to manifest themselves before him.

I believe he actually used males for the basis of many of his women.  :lol:

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 09, 2009, 03:09:58 PM

Quote from: Valmy on September 09, 2009, 03:06:25 PM

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 09, 2009, 03:04:02 PM
Nah, he mostly did religious themes.

He still had to have models, I presume he didn't get Adam and God to manifest themselves before him.

I believe he actually used males for the basis of many of his women.  :lol:

You know your women are ugly when you have to start using men as your women :P

I know i've heard that before, but i always wondered why. I know he wasn't the only one to do so. Was cause he (and the others) were poofters, or was it something akin to the english using men as women on stage because it was immodest (and eventually illegal) for women to be actors?

Quote from: HVC on September 09, 2009, 03:14:36 PM

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 09, 2009, 03:09:58 PM

Quote from: Valmy on September 09, 2009, 03:06:25 PM

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 09, 2009, 03:04:02 PM
Nah, he mostly did religious themes.

He still had to have models, I presume he didn't get Adam and God to manifest themselves before him.

I believe he actually used males for the basis of many of his women.  :lol:

You know your women are ugly when you have to start using men as your women :P

I know i've heard that before, but i always wondered why. I know he wasn't the only one to do so. Was cause he (and the others) were poofters, or was it something akin to the english using men as women on stage because it was immodest (and eventually illegal) for women to be actors?

Michellangelo was a very weird guy. He was a loner, who lived in great modesty despite being quite well off, and was scruffy and unkempt. Some stories have him living in borderline misery and dressing almost like a beggar, despite having rich patrons. As for his sexuality, he apparently lived in monastic chastity for all his life, while being attracted to younger men, even though he also had relationships with women later in life. He had a well documented platonic relationship with another artist more than 30 years his junior, for instance, and had other similar relationships with other men, exchanging love poems and the like.

Okay, the story gets wierder: "she" is a hermaphrodite.

http://www.canada.com/South+African+sprinter+Semenya+hermaphrodite+reports/1980489/story.html

Not a shock.  Does that disqualify him/her/it?  Wasn't there a US female Olympian back in the day who lost her medals because they later found she was a hermaphrodite?  Not gonna search for that at work :D

Quote from: derspiess on September 10, 2009, 04:25:06 PM
Not a shock.  Does that disqualify him/her/it?  Wasn't there a US female Olympian back in the day who lost her medals because they later found she was a hermaphrodite?  Not gonna search for that at work :D

I don't blame you.  :lol:

Yeah, it will be interesting. Who do hermaphrodites compete with - men or women?

Neither, they compete with both.

Quote from: Malthus on September 10, 2009, 04:28:47 PM

Quote from: derspiess on September 10, 2009, 04:25:06 PM
Not a shock.  Does that disqualify him/her/it?  Wasn't there a US female Olympian back in the day who lost her medals because they later found she was a hermaphrodite?  Not gonna search for that at work :D

they'll have to create  new games for them. The Hermolympics or something :D

I don't blame you.  :lol:

Yeah, it will be interesting. Who do hermaphrodites compete with - men or women?

Yeah that's an interesting question.

I mean if they disqualify her, then it would mean hermaphrodites cannot compete in any sports - that would be discriminatory, no?

Quote from: Martinus on September 10, 2009, 06:24:54 PM
I mean if they disqualify her, then it would mean hermaphrodites cannot compete in any sports - that would be discriminatory, no?

Well it would not necessarily mean that it could just mean they could not compete in women's sports.

Which one does he/she pee out of?  That would be a good litmus test.

I feel sorry for this girl.  This whole thing has been handled awfully. 

Quote from: Sheilbh on September 10, 2009, 06:59:01 PM
I feel sorry for this girl.  This whole thing has been handled awfully. 

Not sure that there was really a good way to handle it.

Quote from: dps on September 10, 2009, 09:40:55 PM

Quote from: Sheilbh on September 10, 2009, 06:59:01 PM
I feel sorry for this girl.  This whole thing has been handled awfully. 

Not sure that there was really a good way to handle it.

Doctors realizing her condition when she was young and making the necessary modifications.

Quote from: dps on September 10, 2009, 09:40:55 PM

Quote from: Sheilbh on September 10, 2009, 06:59:01 PM
I feel sorry for this girl.  This whole thing has been handled awfully. 

Not sure that there was really a good way to handle it.

Well they could have avoided the public announcement of an investigation and just done it privately until they were sure there was something medical. 

As it turns out she's a hermaphrodite.  But if she came back totally girl imagine how awful it would've been, after an incredible success, to have to endure a pretty discussed investigation into your biological sex.

Quote from: Sheilbh on September 10, 2009, 10:38:28 PM
Well they could have avoided the public announcement of an investigation and just done it privately until they were sure there was something medical. 

As it turns out she's a hermaphrodite.  But if she came back totally girl imagine how awful it would've been, after an incredible success, to have to endure a pretty discussed investigation into your biological sex.

I don't really think it is fair to the girls.  They prepared to run against people of the same gender and therefore of a reasonably similar anatomy, not someone with a greater natural predisposition for athletic ability due to intersex status.  It would be like letting a sentient dolphin compete in the Olympics.

Quote from: Queequeg on September 10, 2009, 10:49:05 PM
I don't really think it is fair to the girls.  They prepared to run against people of the same gender and therefore of a reasonably similar anatomy, not someone with a greater natural predisposition for athletic ability due to intersex status.  It would be like letting a sentient dolphin compete in the Olympics.

Hi Marty!

Disqualifying her from all sports might be a bit extreme, but at least from my (and clearly almost everyone else's) perspective she seems to be more clearly on the "male" side of the male-female anatomical divide.  I don't see any breast development whatsoever, or even other secondary sex characteristics like widened hips, and height wise, muscle wise, and shoulder wise she clearly looks to have developed more like a man.

Quote from: Queequeg on September 10, 2009, 10:49:05 PM
I don't really think it is fair to the girls.  They prepared to run against people of the same gender and therefore of a reasonably similar anatomy, not someone with a greater natural predisposition for athletic ability due to intersex status.  It would be like letting a sentient dolphin compete in the Olympics.

Okay fine, but investigate before publicly humiliating her and then try and work out some way of dealing with it in private before any announcements are made.

Quote from: Sheilbh on September 10, 2009, 10:57:30 PM
Okay fine, but investigate before publicly humiliating her and then try and work out some way of dealing with it in private before any announcements are made.

Totally agree here.  I'm really, really surprised this wasn't checked earlier, actually.  I mean, I get it when slightly effeminate looking intersexed "men" can pull off looking like a woman, or even look like some kind of combination, but this person's musculature and distinctly male secondary sex characteristics should have raised some alarms.   

probably a feeble attempt to keep others from doing the same. Public shame has for a very long time been used as a deterent for unwanted behavior.

Quote from: Sheilbh on September 10, 2009, 10:38:28 PM

Quote from: dps on September 10, 2009, 09:40:55 PM

Quote from: Sheilbh on September 10, 2009, 06:59:01 PM
I feel sorry for this girl.  This whole thing has been handled awfully. 

Not sure that there was really a good way to handle it.

Well they could have avoided the public announcement of an investigation and just done it privately until they were sure there was something medical. 

As it turns out she's a hermaphrodite.  But if she came back totally girl imagine how awful it would've been, after an incredible success, to have to endure a pretty discussed investigation into your biological sex.

Well, yeah, if it had turned out that's she's just a very masculine looking female, obviously it would have been better to not say anything publicly about the matter.  But given the actual outcome of the medical tests, it was going to be a humiliating experience regardless of how it was handled.

And yeah, Peter Wiggin is right--it would have been better if  the medical facts had been discovered and dealt with before the person ever became a competitive runner.  I'm sure that it would have still been an unpleasant and probably traumatic ordeal, but it least it wouldn't have played out in public.

Quote from: Sheilbh on September 10, 2009, 10:57:30 PM
Okay fine, but investigate before publicly humiliating her and then try and work out some way of dealing with it in private before any announcements are made.

Well the international track and field people have been known to botch things like this up.

Quote from: Valmy on September 10, 2009, 06:29:27 PM

Quote from: Martinus on September 10, 2009, 06:24:54 PM
I mean if they disqualify her, then it would mean hermaphrodites cannot compete in any sports - that would be discriminatory, no?

Well it would not necessarily mean that it could just mean they could not compete in women's sports.

Can women compete in men's sports?

Quote from: Sheilbh on September 10, 2009, 06:59:01 PM
I feel sorry for this girl.  This whole thing has been handled awfully.

Surely he/she could have avoided a great part of the media circus by approaching the authorities before hand and getting some clarification. 

Quote from: Martinus on September 10, 2009, 06:24:54 PM
Yeah that's an interesting question.

I mean if they disqualify her, then it would mean hermaphrodites cannot compete in any sports - that would be discriminatory, no?

The only issue is whether they get to compete with the women.

Men tend to have the advantage in sports - although obviously a female athlete could easily kick our collective male Languisite asses, they can't generally win against the top male athletes, who are on average larger, stronger and faster.

Thus, a person who is not strictly a "woman" may have physical advantages over biological women. There would be no such advantages in competing with men.

Quote from: Martinus on September 11, 2009, 04:11:25 AM
Can women compete in men's sports?

There would be *unfairness* in having a butch woman competing with the men.

There would be great unfairness in having a good male athlete dressing in drag and competing with the "women".

Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 11, 2009, 05:02:20 AM
Surely he/she could have avoided a great part of the media circus by approaching the authorities before hand and getting some clarification.

She's been raised and lived her life as a girl (which is why I think it's only polite to refer to her as a girl not as a he-she).  The sort of hermaphroditism she has is a form where she'll have internal testes and, I believe, no ovaries or wombs.  But she'll have entirely female genitalia.  When she was born the doctors would have told her parents that she's a girl and she'll have been raised and treated accordingly.  So someone could have suggested something before but why would she not believe she was a masculine and very strong woman? 

After a life led as a girl she's been turned into a global sideshow.  I think it's really very sad.

Quote from: Queequeg on September 10, 2009, 10:49:05 PM

Quote from: Sheilbh on September 10, 2009, 10:38:28 PM
Well they could have avoided the public announcement of an investigation and just done it privately until they were sure there was something medical. 

As it turns out she's a hermaphrodite.  But if she came back totally girl imagine how awful it would've been, after an incredible success, to have to endure a pretty discussed investigation into your biological sex.

I don't really think it is fair to the girls.  They prepared to run against people of the same gender and therefore of a reasonably similar anatomy, not someone with a greater natural predisposition for athletic ability due to intersex status.  It would be like letting a sentient dolphin compete in the Olympics.

But men and women are so supposed to be equal?!?

Quote from: Sheilbh on September 11, 2009, 09:35:42 AM

Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 11, 2009, 05:02:20 AM
Surely he/she could have avoided a great part of the media circus by approaching the authorities before hand and getting some clarification.

She's been raised and lived her life as a girl (which is why I think it's only polite to refer to her as a girl not as a he-she).  The sort of hermaphroditism she has is a form where she'll have internal testes and, I believe, no ovaries or wombs.  But she'll have entirely female genitalia.  When she was born the doctors would have told her parents that she's a girl and she'll have been raised and treated accordingly.  So someone could have suggested something before but why would she not believe she was a masculine and very strong woman? 

After a life led as a girl she's been turned into a global sideshow.  I think it's really very sad.

I find it very difficult to believe, looking as she does and being a top athlete, that the issue of her gender has never occurred to anyone until now.

I find it amusing that since this story broke that in South African media there has been a shit storm about how whites weren't supporting a black athlete against these racist accusations and it turns out she's a hermaphrodite after all.

Quote from: DisturbedPervert on September 11, 2009, 09:51:31 AM
I find it amusing that since this story broke that in South African media there has been a shit storm about how whites weren't supporting a black athlete against these racist accusations and it turns out she's a hermaphrodite after all.

I even recall seeing some bollocks where it was saying white women are little girls and black women just naturally look stronger and what others would call 'manlier'.
And this woman is of course the prime example of a African woman.
So we are all teh racist.

I've heard the word 'butch' used by fellow female athletes, I've heard the phrase ''something like that' A bunch of stick in the muds - all top athletes are different somehow - that's what makes them winners - this one is just streets ahead.

Quote from: DisturbedPervert on September 11, 2009, 09:51:31 AM
I find it amusing that since this story broke that in South African media there has been a shit storm about how whites weren't supporting a black athlete against these racist accusations and it turns out she's a hermaphrodite after all.

People who cry racism all the time tend to have a rather short/selective memory, so they've probably already forgotten about this whole episode :D

Hmmmm ....

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmagazine.web.de%2Fimages%2F122%2F8896122.jpg&hash=c51f651908ed43ab24e8fbd97e9e6756f7ff0948)

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F_2QJSeWQoKyA%2FRzDbDfjE4II%2FAAAAAAAACzI%2FXLVJx2nmSMY%2Fs400%2F5-4l.jpg&hash=d2a240b803141ed60c38e0318aea95fd7c0cb8f5)

Do you know, the first picture almost made me cry - she looks so proud of how well she's done.  For the second picture, you, sir, deserve a :boff: