:bleeding: Time to get out...
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/03/24/BAVQ16LMV9.DTL&feed=rss.bayarea
QuoteNew bike lanes and bike racks could come to San Francisco streets as early as July, ending a court-imposed ban on bicycle improvement projects in the city, officials said Monday.
Just over 1,000 days have passed since a San Francisco Superior Court judge blocked implementation of the citywide bike plan until City Hall analyzed how each of the nearly 60 proposed projects would affect everything from traffic flow to parking availability.
The study was demanded by a small group of citizens who sued over the plan. They are upset at what they view as the city's willingness to appease cyclists at the expense of motorists. San Francisco's official Transit First policy discourages the use of the private automobile.
In addition to adding more bike lanes and bike parking, the city also is looking at setting up a bike-sharing program and allowing two-wheelers on the Municipal Railway's light-rail system. Certain traffic signals also would be retimed to benefit cyclists.
"We want to make bicycling an integral part of life in San Francisco," Timothy Papandreou, assistant deputy director of planning and development for the Municipal Transportation Agency, said at a City Hall hearing Monday.
The impact study is expected to be adopted as early as June, with the first projects uncorked in July or August, Papandreou said.
However, the agency faces a $129 million deficit in the new fiscal year, and budget officials said that implementation of the bike plan may have to be slowed.
The planned projects carry a combined price tag of about $13 million over five years. Officials don't know where they will get all of that, said agency spokesman Judson True.
In the proposed budget for the fiscal year that starts July 1, $2.9 million in transportation sales tax funding has been dedicated to bike improvements, True said.
True said San Francisco hopes to get federal stimulus money to pay for some of the bike projects, but because of the injunction the city has yet to apply for that funding.
Bicycle advocates, a potent political force in San Francisco, have criticized city officials for not aggressively completing the court-mandated review. The advocates want assurances that the projects will move forward quickly once the injunction is lifted.
It has been nearly three years "since the city has striped a new bike lane, installed a new bike rack, put up new signage," said Leah Shahum, executive director of the San Francisco Bicycle Coalition. "I think we all share the irony of that when the city has set very strong environmental, health, livability and congestion-decreasing goals and still we've been held up."
Never been to S.F. but isn't the stereotype that the place has to many hills? That's hard on the cyclists.
What's wrong with bike lanes? :huh:
Kevin
You can't remain the gay capital without always striving to gay up the town that little bit more.
Bicycle advocates, a potent political force in San Francisco, have criticized city officials for not aggressively completing the court-mandated review. The advocates want assurances that the projects will move forward quickly once the injunction is lifted.
Nothing against bikes or riders,good idea over all if someone wants to ride. But sometimes "advocates" take on an overly zealous attitude about things.
Quote from: PRC on March 24, 2009, 11:34:38 AM
Never been to S.F. but isn't the stereotype that the place has to many hills? That's hard on the cyclists.
My thoughts too, god could have chosen a better city to prove to America that this is a good thing.
I'd like to see a feasability study of the plans they've proposed. It's always good to add more bike options, but not usually good to add them at the expense of the rest of traffic.
Quote from: Eochaid on March 24, 2009, 12:35:05 PM
What's wrong with bike lanes? :huh:
Kevin
My street already has bike lanes, however bicyclists don't stick to them. They bike wherever the fuck they feel like. I hate bike riders so much! In fact, a lot of city traffic is generated because they move so fucking slow. :mad:
Quote from: garbon on March 24, 2009, 01:07:52 PM
My street already has bike lanes, however bicyclists don't stick to them. They bike wherever the fuck they feel like. I hate bike riders so much! In fact, a lot of city traffic is generated because they move so fucking slow. :mad:
Yeah, cyclists should be ticketed more aggressively.
Quote from: Tyr on March 24, 2009, 12:55:52 PM
Quote from: PRC on March 24, 2009, 11:34:38 AM
Never been to S.F. but isn't the stereotype that the place has to many hills? That's hard on the cyclists.
My thoughts too, god could have chosen a better city to prove to America that this is a good thing.
The key areas of San Francisco (i.e. downtown and then up market, castro, mission, hayes valley and lower haight, marina) aren't really that bad for biking. The most militant bicyclists are all in the mission, which is not coincidentally almost entirely flat. :D
Is it Seattle that has that occasional mob of cyclists who intentionally shut down as much of the city as possible by blocking all the major car lanes to make some sort of point about cars=bad? Mass Effect or some such.
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on March 24, 2009, 01:13:29 PM
Is it Seattle that has that occasional mob of cyclists who intentionally shut down as much of the city as possible by blocking all the major car lanes to make some sort of point about cars=bad? Mass Effect or some such.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_Mass
It rides down my street. I'm so thankful that it always occurs at a time that I'm safely at home. :)
:bleeding: = I'm so glad this smilie is back.
In a perfect world cities would be off limits for cars and only those who need it to work would be allowed to use one.
It would cut down on stupid drivers, split workdays and fat people.
Quote from: Iormlund on March 24, 2009, 02:05:40 PM
In a perfect world cities would be off limits for cars and only those who need it to work would be allowed to use one.
It would cut down on stupid drivers, split workdays and fat people.
Only an ignorant fool would say such a thing.
Quote from: Caliga on March 24, 2009, 02:05:15 PM
:bleeding: = I'm so glad this smilie is back.
There is hope on Languish becoming the cuddly place it used to be, or was it that cuddly?
Quote from: Neil on March 24, 2009, 02:28:50 PM
Only an ignorant fool would say such a thing.
:yes:
Quote from: Neil on March 24, 2009, 02:28:50 PM
Only an ignorant fool would say such a thing.
Meh. As much as I like driving, I hate sharing the streets with other drivers even more. I rarely use my car for anything but work.
And there's always the track if I want to floor the gas (karting is great fun).
Quote from: Iormlund on March 24, 2009, 03:31:23 PM
Quote from: Neil on March 24, 2009, 02:28:50 PM
Only an ignorant fool would say such a thing.
Meh. As much as I like driving, I hate sharing the streets with other drivers even more. I rarely use my car for anything but work.
And there's always the track if I want to floor the gas (karting is great fun).
Cars are required for life in the western part of North America.
I'm probably going to begin biking to and from work two days a week starting this spring. I'd try to do it more often, but I need to have the car with me to pick up my daughters several nights a week.
My city spent tens of thousands of dollars putting in bike lanes last year. I loath them. And the bike people who use them.
Fuck cyclists & their bycles.
That said, having their own lanes is a good thing. I'm tired of having to share the proper lanes with them.
They don't stick with them. They go on the sidewalks and they blow through red lights and stop signs and just act like tools.
I can see this working if it's part of a planned integrated transport system, rather than a tick box exercise along the lines of "hey we put in 50 miles of bike lines" and just putting these things all over the place.
Oh and the bike riders / hipsters need to follow the rules of the road for it to pay dividends in the long run.
Vienna does a lot for cyclists. However, some cyclists are assholes (same as motorists or pedestrians). Anyways, the main shopping street has recently been turned into a pedestrian area that looks like this, from one end of the street to the other:
[normal street] - ["encounter zone"*] - [pedestrian zone, with bike traffic permitted] - [normal street] - [encounter zone] - [normal street]
*cars, bikes and pedestrians have equal rights on the street
The sidewalks in this street are already 15 to 20 feet wide. Now a two lane street (four lanes, if you count the parking bays) has been added. Result: pedestrians stick to the sidewalks, and the cyclists race through the street like there's no tomorrow. Basically, the "pedestrian area" is a glorified high speed bicycle road:wacko:
Cyclists are pretentious and arrogant as a rule.
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on May 05, 2014, 07:18:30 AM
Cyclists are pretentious and arrogant as a rule.
You should visit Copenhagen, there's no pretentioness or arrogance involved with cycling, and less than 30% are assholes, but I guess that's the standard figure for everyone in traffic.
Quote from: mongers on May 05, 2014, 07:12:30 AM
I can see this working if it's part of a planned integrated transport system, rather than a tick box exercise along the lines of "hey we put in 50 miles of bike lines" and just putting these things all over the place.
I think you mean if it's not part of a plan :P
I agree. There's lots more to do in London but the progress here's been enormous.
QuoteOh and the bike riders / hipsters need to follow the rules of the road for it to pay dividends in the long run.
But that goes both ways taxi drivers and pedestrians are also very bad at not following the rules.
Generally I've never had a problem with cyclists.
Pedestrians are generally slow moving and not that big of an issue. Bicyclists really suck for both pedestrians and motorists.
Quote from: garbon on May 05, 2014, 07:40:42 AM
Pedestrians are generally slow moving and not that big of an issue. Bicyclists really suck for both pedestrians and motorists.
Pedestrians cut into the road without looking. They hear cars so don't step out nearly as much, but because cyclists are quiet (sometimes they've time to shout) they've got to swerve to avoid pedestrians or crash.
Cabbies are horrible, very aggressive drivers - bus drivers are great.
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on May 05, 2014, 07:11:59 AM
They don't stick with them. They go on the sidewalks and they blow through red lights and stop signs and just act like tools.
I rather they use the sidewalks than the streets.
http://www.bikereader.com/contributors/misc/menace.html
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on May 05, 2014, 07:11:59 AM
They don't stick with them. They go on the sidewalks and they blow through red lights and stop signs and just act like tools.
When there is a proper network of bike lanes ala Holland they do. When things are done in the verey patchy style that is common in the UK...well you often have to go onto the pavement, bike lines start and end rather irregularly.
A big thing I hate and always see in Japan- towns install bike lanes....but decide to plonk lampposts and trees in the middle of them. Not to mention lazy motorists who use them as convenient parking spots. :ultra:
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 05, 2014, 07:50:45 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 05, 2014, 07:40:42 AM
Pedestrians are generally slow moving and not that big of an issue. Bicyclists really suck for both pedestrians and motorists.
Pedestrians cut into the road without looking. They hear cars so don't step out nearly as much, but because cyclists are quiet (sometimes they've time to shout) they've got to swerve to avoid pedestrians or crash.
Cabbies are horrible, very aggressive drivers - bus drivers are great.
Or they could just leave their bicycles at home. :P
What really pisses me off is when someone thinks they need to take their bike onto a crowded subway during rush hour. Which is not allowed during the high traffic hours, but of course no one would tell them to get off the train (because one thing Viennese hate more than people acting like jackasses is getting involved with people they don't know - also, it gives them something to grumble and be indignant about, which is always welcome).
Quote from: Syt on May 05, 2014, 08:28:19 AM
What really pisses me off is when someone thinks they need to take their bike onto a crowded subway during rush hour. Which is not allowed during the high traffic hours, but of course no one would tell them to get off the train (because one thing Viennese hate more than people acting like jackasses is getting involved with people they don't know - also, it gives them something to grumble and be indignant about, which is always welcome).
When did Vienna have a sudden influx of Londoners/Brits?
Quote from: mongers on May 05, 2014, 08:30:08 AM
Quote from: Syt on May 05, 2014, 08:28:19 AM
What really pisses me off is when someone thinks they need to take their bike onto a crowded subway during rush hour. Which is not allowed during the high traffic hours, but of course no one would tell them to get off the train (because one thing Viennese hate more than people acting like jackasses is getting involved with people they don't know - also, it gives them something to grumble and be indignant about, which is always welcome).
When did Vienna have a sudden influx of Londoners/Brits?
:secret:
Syt had a thread about this.
Quote from: garbon on May 05, 2014, 08:39:39 AM
Quote from: mongers on May 05, 2014, 08:30:08 AM
Quote from: Syt on May 05, 2014, 08:28:19 AM
What really pisses me off is when someone thinks they need to take their bike onto a crowded subway during rush hour. Which is not allowed during the high traffic hours, but of course no one would tell them to get off the train (because one thing Viennese hate more than people acting like jackasses is getting involved with people they don't know - also, it gives them something to grumble and be indignant about, which is always welcome).
When did Vienna have a sudden influx of Londoners/Brits?
:secret:
Syt had a thread about this.
Not related to you point, but I think many megacities evolve this as a similar sub/part of their culture.
Quote from: mongers on May 05, 2014, 08:46:55 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 05, 2014, 08:39:39 AM
Quote from: mongers on May 05, 2014, 08:30:08 AM
Quote from: Syt on May 05, 2014, 08:28:19 AM
What really pisses me off is when someone thinks they need to take their bike onto a crowded subway during rush hour. Which is not allowed during the high traffic hours, but of course no one would tell them to get off the train (because one thing Viennese hate more than people acting like jackasses is getting involved with people they don't know - also, it gives them something to grumble and be indignant about, which is always welcome).
When did Vienna have a sudden influx of Londoners/Brits?
:secret:
Syt had a thread about this.
Not related to you point, but I think many megacities evolve this as a similar sub/part of their culture.
Actually my point in the mentioned thread is that I thought grumbling was a common activity in many cities*. :P
*though not specifically about getting involved with people they don't know, though I agree with that too.
Quote from: Neil on March 24, 2009, 03:33:55 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on March 24, 2009, 03:31:23 PM
Quote from: Neil on March 24, 2009, 02:28:50 PM
Only an ignorant fool would say such a thing.
Meh. As much as I like driving, I hate sharing the streets with other drivers even more. I rarely use my car for anything but work.
And there's always the track if I want to floor the gas (karting is great fun).
Cars are required for life in the western part of North America.
Does it need to be that way? I live ~10 miles from work and at rush hour it takes me ~40-45 minutes to get to the office. If I had a safe option, I could bike the 10 miles, probably faster.
Quote from: Neil on March 24, 2009, 03:33:55 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on March 24, 2009, 03:31:23 PM
Quote from: Neil on March 24, 2009, 02:28:50 PM
Only an ignorant fool would say such a thing.
Meh. As much as I like driving, I hate sharing the streets with other drivers even more. I rarely use my car for anything but work.
And there's always the track if I want to floor the gas (karting is great fun).
Cars are required for life in the western part of North America.
I wont quarrel with you that cars are required if you live in the middle of nowhere - say Edmonton. But if you live in a civilized region - say the Pacific coast - getting around by bike is a convenient, enjoyable and in many ways the preferred option so long as the distance travelled is reasonable.
The last time we were in SF we rented some bikes to tour the city. It was great fun. The city already seems bike friendly so I am not sure what the big uproar is about.
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 05, 2014, 12:16:29 PM
I wont quarrel with you that cars are required if you live in the middle of nowhere - say Edmonton. But if you live in a civilized region - say the Pacific coast - getting around by bike is a convenient, enjoyable and in many ways the preferred option so long as the distance travelled is reasonable.
Most of the pacific coast requires a car.
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 05, 2014, 12:16:29 PM
The last time we were in SF we rented some bikes to tour the city. It was great fun. The city already seems bike friendly so I am not sure what the big uproar is about.
Well my complaint is now 5 years old.
Quote from: Syt on May 05, 2014, 08:28:19 AM
What really pisses me off is when someone thinks they need to take their bike onto a crowded subway during rush hour. Which is not allowed during the high traffic hours, but of course no one would tell them to get off the train (because one thing Viennese hate more than people acting like jackasses is getting involved with people they don't know - also, it gives them something to grumble and be indignant about, which is always welcome).
:secret: Another common Germanic heritage between Germany and Austria! Do they do it in trams as well?
Vancouver got a bunch of bike lanes recently. I think they're great :)
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 05, 2014, 12:16:29 PM
The last time we were in SF we rented some bikes to tour the city. It was great fun. The city already seems bike friendly so I am not sure what the big uproar is about.
My friends in the US say it's way more of a political issue over there. I remember that WSJ interview and the row between a couple of pedestrians and a cyclist in DC and I think it's probably yet another front in the culture wars.
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 05, 2014, 01:07:44 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 05, 2014, 12:16:29 PM
The last time we were in SF we rented some bikes to tour the city. It was great fun. The city already seems bike friendly so I am not sure what the big uproar is about.
My friends in the US say it's way more of a political issue over there. I remember that WSJ interview and the row between a couple of pedestrians and a cyclist in DC and I think it's probably yet another front in the culture wars.
I don't know. I've seen bicyclists be militant but I don't know that there is an organized anti-bicyclist crowd.
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 05, 2014, 01:07:44 PM
My friends in the US say it's way more of a political issue over there. I remember that WSJ interview and the row between a couple of pedestrians and a cyclist in DC and I think it's probably yet another front in the culture wars.
It does seem like simple issues of civic governance have a tendency to be turned into acrimonious us vs them fights.
Gun racks don't work very well on bicycles, thus they are un-American.
Quote from: garbon on May 05, 2014, 01:10:11 PM
I don't know. I've seen bicyclists be militant but I don't know that there is an organized anti-bicyclist crowd.
You may not be organized, but there sure is a lot of visceral anti-bicyclist sentiment being expressed.
It's not just a US thing, though; we get some of it here in Vancouver too.
Quote from: Jacob on May 05, 2014, 01:12:29 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 05, 2014, 01:10:11 PM
I don't know. I've seen bicyclists be militant but I don't know that there is an organized anti-bicyclist crowd.
You may not be organized, but there sure is a lot of visceral anti-bicyclist sentiment being expressed.
It's not just a US thing, though; we get some of it here in Vancouver too.
Of course, my opposition stems from a rationale place and not an emotional one as you suggest. I don't mind bicyclists in suburbs or bicyclists traveling along the Henry Hudson river path. I do take issue when bike zoning gets rid of streets/parking, bicyclists have extensive bike paths but insist on driving in the middle of car lanes/on sidewalks, bicyclists participate in events like Critical Mass which seem to be a celebration of how they can ensnarl car traffic.
Quote from: garbon on May 05, 2014, 01:17:17 PMOf course, my opposition stems from a rationale place and not an emotional one as you suggest. I don't mind bicyclists in suburbs or bicyclists traveling along the Henry Hudson river path. I do take issue when bike zoning gets rid of streets/parking, bicyclists have extensive bike paths but insist on driving in the middle of car lanes/on sidewalks, bicyclists participate in events like Critical Mass which seem to be a celebration of how they can ensnarl car traffic.
I'm sure your opposition is rationally based, garbon. Nonetheless, much of the opposition is expressed in very visceral terms whether it's rationally based or not.
And yeah, Critical Mass is a bunch of bullshit; we get it once in a while up here.
Quote from: Jacob on May 05, 2014, 01:20:32 PM
Nonetheless, much of the opposition is expressed in very visceral terms whether it's rationally based or not.
Well that often happens when people are angry. Given that there is no organized anti-bicyclist crowd (which would also be odd to have - given the health benefits), it shouldn't be surprising that said frustration bubbles out in angry, emotive terms.
Quote from: garbon on May 05, 2014, 12:19:34 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 05, 2014, 12:16:29 PM
I wont quarrel with you that cars are required if you live in the middle of nowhere - say Edmonton. But if you live in a civilized region - say the Pacific coast - getting around by bike is a convenient, enjoyable and in many ways the preferred option so long as the distance travelled is reasonable.
Most of the pacific coast requires a car.
I said if you live in a civilized region. I understand that there are large amounts of the US pacific coast in which cars are necessary. But there are also oasis of civility.
Why pack an entire civilization into a 10 mile radius when you can drive a car and have some space and quiet?
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 05, 2014, 04:54:05 PM
Why pack an entire civilization into a 10 mile radius when you can drive a car and have some space and quiet?
Space and quiet? In LA?
I need a car to get away from the subhumans that surround the Wolf's Lair.
Quote from: Jacob on May 05, 2014, 01:11:04 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 05, 2014, 01:07:44 PM
My friends in the US say it's way more of a political issue over there. I remember that WSJ interview and the row between a couple of pedestrians and a cyclist in DC and I think it's probably yet another front in the culture wars.
It does seem like simple issues of civic governance have a tendency to be turned into acrimonious us vs them fights.
If people need cars to get around, and at certain times of the day the traffic is very bad say on a 2 lane road, it can be fustrating to have bikers going along at 10-15 mph when the flow of traffic picks up to a bit faster, but no one can safely get by the biker.
At the same time, it isn't so safe for the bikers.
The bottom line is that roads are scarce, it is difficult to have people traveling at different speeds, and bikes don't go as fast as cars.
Quote from: Ed Anger on May 05, 2014, 04:58:49 PM
I need a car to get away from the subhumans that surround the Wolf's Lair.
By leaving the Wolf's Lair dont you necessarily (and perhaps unnecessarily) expose yourself to a greater danger of such contact?
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 05, 2014, 04:46:50 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 05, 2014, 12:19:34 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 05, 2014, 12:16:29 PM
I wont quarrel with you that cars are required if you live in the middle of nowhere - say Edmonton. But if you live in a civilized region - say the Pacific coast - getting around by bike is a convenient, enjoyable and in many ways the preferred option so long as the distance travelled is reasonable.
Most of the pacific coast requires a car.
I said if you live in a civilized region. I understand that there are large amounts of the US pacific coast in which cars are necessary. But there are also oasis of civility.
You said civilized region - say Pacific Coast. The fact that most of the region apparently isn't civilized by your standards, hardly supports your assertion.
By region, he means Vancouver, Seattle, Portland and San Francisco.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 05, 2014, 06:09:10 PM
By region, he means Vancouver, Seattle, Portland and San Francisco.
But that's not really a region but just a few isolated pockets within a region. I'd also note that I found a car helpful (though I suppose not strictly necessary) in SF, Vancouver and Portland.
Now if by civilization in North America he meant Chicago, NYC, Toronto and Boston - then sure I could see it.
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 05, 2014, 05:20:42 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on May 05, 2014, 04:58:49 PM
I need a car to get away from the subhumans that surround the Wolf's Lair.
By leaving the Wolf's Lair dont you necessarily (and perhaps unnecessarily) expose yourself to a greater danger of such contact?
That is what the glock is for.
gluck
Quote from: garbon on May 05, 2014, 06:17:01 PM
Now if by civilization in North America he meant Chicago, NYC, Toronto and Boston - then sure I could see it.
Garbon you should try cycling, physically you get to look down upon people. :cool:
Quote from: mongers on May 05, 2014, 07:29:53 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 05, 2014, 06:17:01 PM
Now if by civilization in North America he meant Chicago, NYC, Toronto and Boston - then sure I could see it.
Garbon you should try cycling, physically you get to look down upon people. :cool:
Alternatively, you can pitch into my fund to buy an Escalade Hybrid.
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 05, 2014, 07:50:45 AM
Cabbies are horrible, very aggressive drivers - bus drivers are great.
In Korea bus drivers are the worst. They have the biggest vehicle and so they feel that everyone else has to make way for them, especially since they're on a strict schedule.
Make for them?
My mistake
make way for them
I was going to put you down as another one of the scatologically inclined.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 05, 2014, 06:09:10 PM
By region, he means Vancouver, Seattle, Portland and San Francisco.
It takes a civilized person to know what I meant. :cheers:
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 06, 2014, 06:38:05 AM
My mistake
make way for them
We make way for your mistakes all the time.
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 06, 2014, 10:52:31 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 05, 2014, 06:09:10 PM
By region, he means Vancouver, Seattle, Portland and San Francisco.
It takes a civilized person to know what I meant. :cheers:
Civilization seems to have a very elastic definition in your mind.
Quote from: garbon on May 06, 2014, 12:37:33 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 06, 2014, 10:52:31 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 05, 2014, 06:09:10 PM
By region, he means Vancouver, Seattle, Portland and San Francisco.
It takes a civilized person to know what I meant. :cheers:
Civilization seems to have a very elastic definition in your mind.
What do you have against Peter :(