From the epitome of journalism, The Guardian:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/aug/20/malaysia-model-alcohol-cane (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/aug/20/malaysia-model-alcohol-cane)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic.guim.co.uk%2Fsys-images%2FGuardian%2FAbout%2FGeneral%2F2009%2F8%2F20%2F1250753701446%2FKartika-Sari-Dewi-Shukarn-001.jpg&hash=eb4980bf450dfdec93a5e4968753677665e125e2)
QuoteA Muslim model will receive six strokes from a rattan cane after admitting in an Islamic court to the crime of drinking beer in a bar.
Kartika Sari Dewi Shukarno, 32, said todaythat she asked Malaysian authorities to punish her in public instead of in a prison, but they refused to go against official procedures.
Shukarno, 32, is scheduled to be the first woman in this Muslim-majority country to be flogged under Islamic law after she was arrested in a raid and sentenced by a sharia court for drinking alcohol at a hotel lounge last year.
"I want to send a message that I really regret what I did, so I want to be punished in front of other people," Kartika said in a telephone interview from her northern home state of Perak. "If other Muslims can see me being caned, I hope it will convince them not to drink."
The news of her impending punishment comes just weeks after the case of Lubna Hussein, a Sudanese woman who faces 40 lashes for wearing trousers in public, in what has become a public test of Sudan's indecency laws. Hussein, a former journalist and UN press officer, was arrested with 12 other women during a party at a Khartoum restaurant in July and charged with being indecently dressed.
Kartika said prison officials turned down her request today, saying she will be lashed six times with a rattan cane without any public witnesses sometime early next week.
Authorities have insisted Kartika will not feel much physical pain because the rattan cane will be smaller and lighter than the one for men, and its purpose was to "educate" rather than punish.
Her penalty has led to criticism by some politicians and women's rights activists who say it is still too harsh. The law provides for a three-year prison term and caning for Muslims caught drinking, but most offenders are fined. Drinking is legal for non-Muslims.
Kartika said officials indicated she might have to stay inside the prison for several days ahead of the caning, but she will be separated from the regular inmates.
"I feel relieved. I was not afraid of the caning, but I was afraid of the environment in the prison. Now they said they will make me comfortable, so I'm satisfied," she said, adding thatshe had explained the matter to her seven-year-old son and five-year-old daughter.
"They both don't really understand, but my daughter told me, 'Mama, you must be strong.' Now I feel brave but sad that this is not only a punishment for me but for my family," she said.
This story is awesome! Pretty, sweet and innocent Asian model exposed to the harsh brutality and uncontrolled passions of women's prison and she gets flogged. :w00t:
:unsure:
Er, I mean it's reprehensible what the Malays are doing. :Embarrass:
IF YOU CAN'T DO THE TIME, DON'T DO THE CRIME. :mad:
I hope they beat her hard. Drinking in white people hotels. :mad:
Yeah, those moderate democratic muslims countries really give us all hope that not all is rotten with Islam.
Quote from: Martinus on August 21, 2009, 07:25:50 AM
Yeah, those moderate democratic muslims countries really give us all hope that not all is rotten with Islam.
Malaysia's not democratic :huh:
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 21, 2009, 07:27:46 AM
Quote from: Martinus on August 21, 2009, 07:25:50 AM
Yeah, those moderate democratic muslims countries really give us all hope that not all is rotten with Islam.
Malaysia's not democratic :huh:
Well, here's a thread in which you are citing Malaysia as an example of a ("to an extent") democratic muslim country. ;)
http://languish.org/forums/index.php?topic=559.0
In the same thread Eochaid lists it among the democratic, moderate Muslim countries, too.
In that thread (in which I claimed Malaysia is not a proper democracy), Eochaid's response was:
QuoteMalaysia: so? Divorce was illegal in Irleand until 1995 and abortion, for whatever reason, still is. Because the Church says so. DO you claim Ireland isn't a Democracy.
Yet I didn't see you arguing with him, Sheilbh (despite your otherwise very active participation).
Selim the Sot would have pardoned her.
Quote from: Martinus on August 21, 2009, 07:33:38 AMWell, here's a thread in which you are citing Malaysia as an example of a ("to an extent") democratic muslim country. ;)
http://languish.org/forums/index.php?topic=559.0
In the same thread Eochaid lists it among the democratic, moderate Muslim countries, too.
They are, to an extent. My understanding is that they're roughly like South Korea or Taiwan were. The nearest analogy is Singapore I think. They have a parliament and a government which is elected and there is some competition - unlike in one party states or dictatorships - but in practice one party has made it difficult for a real opposition to form or succeed. The opposition hasn't helped by being pretty fractious. But at the last election they won less than the two-thirds of seats necessary for constitutional amendments and I believe they're currently facing a very strong coalition opposition including an array of parties from secular Chinese to Islamists (Economist had an article about this last week). So there is speculation that another government could form which would make them some sort of full democracy.
I also think that Malaysia's federal so each state has laws of differing severity on these sorts of things. They've not pushed the law to the full extent and this is the first time a woman's been punished like this in Malaysia's post-independence history, according to the article.
I think you get caned in Singapore for littering don't you, or is that an urban myth?
What isn't, but is terrifying, is that the Isle of Man, where some of my family are from, which is just between England and Ireland is technically independent. So it has it's own laws, though it's recently and reluctantly been brought under EU human rights law. Public birching there was only abolished in, I think, 1997 after the ECHR ruled that it was 'cruel and unusual'. It was until then the standard punishment for minor crimes like shoplifting or homosexuality which was only legalised in the 90s. The Isle of Man is still deeply unhappy at EU laws and, so far as I can tell, every week or so they have a new article bemoaning the abolition of birching and the death penalty (also abolished in the 90s) :bleeding: :lol:
Quote from: Martinus on August 21, 2009, 07:37:33 AM
QuoteMalaysia: so? Divorce was illegal in Irleand until 1995 and abortion, for whatever reason, still is. Because the Church says so. DO you claim Ireland isn't a Democracy.
Yet I didn't see you arguing with him, Sheilbh (despite your otherwise very active participation).
I said Malaysia was a democracy, to an extent. I think it is. It's an authoritarian democracy like Singapore, or in the past Taiwan or South Korea. There's nothing shocking about a flawed emerging democracy.
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 21, 2009, 07:47:28 AM
What isn't, but is terrifying, is that the Isle of Man, where some of my family are from, which is just between England and Ireland is technically independent. So it has it's own laws, though it's recently and reluctantly been brought under EU human rights law. Public birching there was only abolished in, I think, 1997 after the ECHR ruled that it was 'cruel and unusual'. It was until then the standard punishment for minor crimes like shoplifting or homosexuality which was only legalised in the 90s. The Isle of Man is still deeply unhappy at EU laws and, so far as I can tell, every week or so they have a new article bemoaning the abolition of birching and the death penalty (also abolished in the 90s) :bleeding: :lol:
Yeah but the Isle of Man is a tiny backwater universally loathed by the few who even know of its existance...and I only know of its existance thanks to Crusader Kings. Malaysia is not only a fairly large and wealthy country but is also held up as an example as a progressive moderate Muslim country so this is rather a bit more embarrasing.
Singapore is a totalitarian paradise everybody knows that also.
Also the arguement it is great for bad stuff to happen in a country because, you know, bad stuff also happens in other countries is a little weird.
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 21, 2009, 07:52:14 AM
a democracy, to an extent. I think it is. It's an authoritarian democracy like Singapore, or in the past Taiwan or South Korea. There's nothing shocking about a flawed emerging democracy.
I don't really see the connection between beatings for drinking and political democracy. Is this beating unpopular over there?
After all the United States is a Democracy and we made drinking illegal for awhile.
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 21, 2009, 07:47:28 AM
I think you get caned in Singapore for littering don't you, or is that an urban myth?
Quote from: Weird Al - Headline News
Once there was this kid who
Took a trip to Singapore
And brought along his spray paint
And when he finally came back
He had cane marks all over his bottom
He said that it was from when
The warden whacked it so hard...
:contract:
Quote from: Valmy on August 21, 2009, 07:54:40 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 21, 2009, 07:52:14 AM
a democracy, to an extent. I think it is. It's an authoritarian democracy like Singapore, or in the past Taiwan or South Korea. There's nothing shocking about a flawed emerging democracy.
I don't really see the connection between beatings for drinking and political democracy. Is this beating unpopular over there?
I said Malaysia wasn't democratic, when I'd earlier said Malaysia was a democracy to some extent. I think my earlier comment was more accurate and I'm trying to explain why.
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 21, 2009, 07:56:47 AM
I said Malaysia wasn't democratic, when I'd earlier said Malaysia was a democracy to some extent. I think my earlier comment was more accurate and I'm trying to explain why.
Well yeah this doesn't really hurt Malaysia's "democratic" cred but rather it's "moderate" cred.
Quote from: Valmy on August 21, 2009, 07:53:06 AM
Also the arguement it is great for bad stuff to happen in a country because, you know, bad stuff also happens in other countries is a little weird.
Oh I'm not making that argument with the Isle of Man. I just enjoy that story because my family come from there, the most savage, terrifying part of Britain. A place with a bridge that when you cross you have to say 'hello faeries' or the faeries will torment you for the rest of your life and deny you happiness - that's the version my aunty told me anyway.
I always think of the Isle of Man when I read stories about caning :)
QuoteA place with a bridge that when you cross you have to say 'hello faeries' or the faeries will torment you for the rest of your life and deny you happiness - that's the version my aunty told me anyway.
:lol:
Quote from: Valmy on August 21, 2009, 08:01:22 AM
Well yeah this doesn't really hurt Malaysia's "democratic" cred but rather it's "moderate" cred.
Yeah, I agree. Though I wonder the degree to which this is a cultural thing given the Singaporean example. I believe the major Islamist party in Malaysia wants Sharia law nationwide because at current only certain states (where they've done well) have it and generally speaking Malaysia's Muslim-laws are only influenced by Sharia. So I wonder for what else is caning the punishment.
Reading around, though, this story's bizarre. The cane legally can't be thicker than a little finger and the cane can't be swung so that the upper arm is separated from the torso and she'll be fully dressed. The legalism of corporal punishment seems very odd. What I find weirdest though is that she's asking for it to be in public, she's said she's using her status as a part-time model to attract press attention so that it will be made public and doesn't want the sentence commuted or anything :blink:
From one article:
QuoteKartika says, "I really regret what I did, so I want to be punished in front of other people."
:blink:
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 21, 2009, 08:07:50 AM
Reading around, though, this story's bizarre. The cane legally can't be thicker than a little finger and the cane can't be swung so that the upper arm is separated from the torso and she'll be fully dressed. The legalism of corporal punishment seems very odd. What I find weirdest though is that she's asking for it to be in public, she's said she's using her status as a part-time model to attract press attention so that it will be made public and doesn't want the sentence commuted or anything :blink:
From one article:
QuoteKartika says, "I really regret what I did, so I want to be punished in front of other people."
:blink:
She's been a ba-a-a-a-ad girl. :ph34r:
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 21, 2009, 08:07:50 AM
From one article:
QuoteKartika says, “I really regret what I did, so I want to be punished in front of other people.“
:blink:
This maybe a total Asia stereotype but sometimes over there showing excess shame is a good way to save face publicly if you have done something wrong.
Quote from: Savonarola on August 21, 2009, 08:13:19 AM
She's been a ba-a-a-a-ad girl. :ph34r:
:lol: I think if Malaysia would allow this to be not just public but filmed and not make her be fully clothed this could be a pay-per-view hit. I'm fairly sure CdM would watch an exhibitionist Malaysian model being caned.
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 21, 2009, 08:18:44 AM
Quote from: Savonarola on August 21, 2009, 08:13:19 AM
She's been a ba-a-a-a-ad girl. :ph34r:
:lol: I think if Malaysia would allow this to be not just public but filmed and not make her be fully clothed this could be a pay-per-view hit. I'm fairly sure CdM would watch an exhibitionist Malaysian model being caned.
This entire incident sounds like it was created for CdM. Asian model getting imprisoned and then caned. CdM's karma must be much better than I would have thought.
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 21, 2009, 07:47:28 AM
What isn't, but is terrifying, is that the Isle of Man, where some of my family are from, which is just between England and Ireland is technically independent. So it has it's own laws, though it's recently and reluctantly been brought under EU human rights law. Public birching there was only abolished in, I think, 1997 after the ECHR ruled that it was 'cruel and unusual'. It was until then the standard punishment for minor crimes like shoplifting or homosexuality which was only legalised in the 90s. The Isle of Man is still deeply unhappy at EU laws and, so far as I can tell, every week or so they have a new article bemoaning the abolition of birching and the death penalty (also abolished in the 90s) :bleeding: :lol:
terrifying? :lol:
I don't see anything wrong with most of this. I'd like to hear a nice, rational, non-weenie argument against caning in favor of, say imprisonment.
Quote from: Maximus on August 21, 2009, 09:04:16 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 21, 2009, 07:47:28 AM
What isn't, but is terrifying, is that the Isle of Man, where some of my family are from, which is just between England and Ireland is technically independent. So it has it's own laws, though it's recently and reluctantly been brought under EU human rights law. Public birching there was only abolished in, I think, 1997 after the ECHR ruled that it was 'cruel and unusual'. It was until then the standard punishment for minor crimes like shoplifting or homosexuality which was only legalised in the 90s. The Isle of Man is still deeply unhappy at EU laws and, so far as I can tell, every week or so they have a new article bemoaning the abolition of birching and the death penalty (also abolished in the 90s) :bleeding: :lol:
terrifying? :lol:
I don't see anything wrong with most of this. I'd like to hear a nice, rational, non-weenie argument against caning in favor of, say imprisonment.
The government should stay out of the bedroom.
Every Malaysian I've ever known, and my ex girlfriend was Malaysian, has wanted to get the fuck out of there, whether it's to Singapore or Australia or wherever. The non Muslim minority that makes up 40% of the population is heavily discriminated against.
In addition to this they also just last week sentenced a Thai woman to death for possession of marijuana.
Quote from: Martinus on August 21, 2009, 07:33:38 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 21, 2009, 07:27:46 AM
Quote from: Martinus on August 21, 2009, 07:25:50 AM
Yeah, those moderate democratic muslims countries really give us all hope that not all is rotten with Islam.
Malaysia's not democratic :huh:
Well, here's a thread in which you are citing Malaysia as an example of a ("to an extent") democratic muslim country. ;)
http://languish.org/forums/index.php?topic=559.0
In the same thread Eochaid lists it among the democratic, moderate Muslim countries, too.
Funny how some Euros attempt to rationalize Mooselimbs, huh?
One day, they'll figure it out.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 22, 2009, 09:52:37 AM
Funny how some Euros attempt to rationalize Mooselimbs, huh?
One day, they'll figure it out.
I hope not, otherwise we won't be able to see video of their heads being sawed off.
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 21, 2009, 08:02:22 AM
A place with a bridge that when you cross you have to say 'hello faeries' or the faeries will torment you for the rest of your life and deny you happiness - that's the version my aunty told me anyway.
I always thought that was in SF at the bottom of Lombard Street.
Quote from: The Brain on August 21, 2009, 10:35:50 PM
Quote from: Maximus on August 21, 2009, 09:04:16 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 21, 2009, 07:47:28 AM
What isn't, but is terrifying, is that the Isle of Man, where some of my family are from, which is just between England and Ireland is technically independent. So it has it's own laws, though it's recently and reluctantly been brought under EU human rights law. Public birching there was only abolished in, I think, 1997 after the ECHR ruled that it was 'cruel and unusual'. It was until then the standard punishment for minor crimes like shoplifting or homosexuality which was only legalised in the 90s. The Isle of Man is still deeply unhappy at EU laws and, so far as I can tell, every week or so they have a new article bemoaning the abolition of birching and the death penalty (also abolished in the 90s) :bleeding: :lol:
terrifying? :lol:
I don't see anything wrong with most of this. I'd like to hear a nice, rational, non-weenie argument against caning in favor of, say imprisonment.
The government should stay out of the bedroom.
:lol:
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 21, 2009, 07:47:28 AM
I think you get caned in Singapore for littering don't you, or is that an urban myth?
You get caned in Singapore for vandalism, not littering. If you litter in Singapore, the punishment is doing time to clean up the streets, while a TV crew broadcast the show live on TV.