Went to my first meeting for the upcoming football season.
Had a interesteing case play presented for discussion:
QuoteThe score A-6, B-7 with 1 minute to play in the game. A's ball 4th and goal at the 10. A1 throws a legal forward pass which is intercepted by B1 in the end zone. B1 immediately after making the catch in celebrating his teams stop of A throws the ball which lands at the 20 yard line. B1 was never down.
Anyone interested in taking a stab at the ruling? It isn't that hard, just an interesting situation.
Quote from: Berkut on July 30, 2009, 09:37:09 AM
Went to my first meeting for the upcoming football season.
Had a interesteing case play presented for discussion:
QuoteThe score A-6, B-7 with 1 minute to play in the game. A's ball 4th and goal at the 10. A1 throws a legal forward pass which is intercepted by B1 in the end zone. B1 immediately after making the catch in celebrating his teams stop of A throws the ball which lands at the 20 yard line. B1 was never down.
Anyone interested in taking a stab at the ruling? It isn't that hard, just an interesting situation.
Well it's an illegal forward pass by B1 right?
Quote from: Berkut on July 30, 2009, 09:37:09 AM
Anyone interested in taking a stab at the ruling?
Intentional grounding of the ball in the end zone by B1, equals a safety, score now A-8, B-7?
Interception. Illegal forward pass in the endzone. Safety.
ulmont: You can't call intentional grounding, as the defender isn't in the pocket and presumably isn't facing pressure from the defence.
Quote from: ulmont on July 30, 2009, 09:41:45 AM
Quote from: Berkut on July 30, 2009, 09:37:09 AM
Anyone interested in taking a stab at the ruling?
Intentional grounding of the ball in the end zone by B1, equals a safety, score now A-8, B-7?
You have it right between the two of you.
Illegal forward pass, not intentional grounding, and yes, it will result in a safety for team A, who wins the game.
And that poor kid has to drop out of school and move to another state.
This one generated a LOT of argument:
A1 running down the sideline steps out of bounds, runs a couple yards out of bounds, then:
A) Jumps in the air, catches a pass, then lands in bounds.
B) Steps in bounds, catches a pass, and is then tackled in bounds.
C) Leaps into the air, strikes a pass while in the air, which is then caught by A2 who is in bounds.
Ruling?
Quote from: Berkut on July 30, 2009, 09:51:10 AM
Illegal forward pass, not intentional grounding, and yes, it will result in a safety for team A, who wins the game.
Yeah, hadn't thought through the pass quite far enough.
Quote from: Berkut on July 30, 2009, 09:51:10 AM
And that poor kid has to drop out of school and move to another state.
But of course.
Quote from: Berkut on July 30, 2009, 09:51:10 AM
A1 running down the sideline steps out of bounds, runs a couple yards out of bounds, then:
A) Jumps in the air, catches a pass, then lands in bounds.
B) Steps in bounds, catches a pass, and is then tackled in bounds.
C) Leaps into the air, strikes a pass while in the air, which is then caught by A2 who is in bounds.
Ruling?
A) Ineligible receiver. Going out of bounds loses your eligibility until such time as an eligible receiver or defensive player touches the ball.
B) Still ineligible.
C) Still ineligible when he struck the pass, but the ball stays in in play, so the catch by A2 should be legal.
Incorrect.
Incorrect.
Incorrect, but close.
Quote from: Berkut on July 30, 2009, 10:00:20 AM
Incorrect.
Incorrect.
Incorrect, but close.
Well, shit. Was looking at this:
QuoteArticle 3 An eligible receiver becomes ineligible if he goes out of bounds (prior to or during a pass) and remains ineligible until an eligible receiver or any defensive player touches the pass
Obviously missed some additional caveat, but you didn't say that the receiver was blocked out of bounds or anything magic like that.
In all cases that would be an inelligible receiver penalty, as the player has to immediately re-establish himself in bounds.
I guess it isn't ineligible receiver, but illegal touching. Either way, if he runs out and is the first to touch a forward pass, it's a five-yard penalty.
Quote from: ulmont on July 30, 2009, 10:02:11 AM
Quote from: Berkut on July 30, 2009, 10:00:20 AM
Incorrect.
Incorrect.
Incorrect, but close.
Well, shit. Was looking at this:
QuoteArticle 3 An eligible receiver becomes ineligible if he goes out of bounds (prior to or during a pass) and remains ineligible until an eligible receiver or any defensive player touches the pass
Obviously missed some additional caveat, but you didn't say that the receiver was blocked out of bounds or anything magic like that.
Where is that rule cite coming from?
Quote from: Berkut on July 30, 2009, 10:13:18 AM
Quote from: ulmont on July 30, 2009, 10:02:11 AM
Quote from: Berkut on July 30, 2009, 10:00:20 AM
Incorrect.
Incorrect.
Incorrect, but close.
Well, shit. Was looking at this:
QuoteArticle 3 An eligible receiver becomes ineligible if he goes out of bounds (prior to or during a pass) and remains ineligible until an eligible receiver or any defensive player touches the pass
Obviously missed some additional caveat, but you didn't say that the receiver was blocked out of bounds or anything magic like that.
Where is that rule cite coming from?
NFL 2006 Official Rulebook, which is the only one I can easily find online (the NFL site just has the digest up). http://blogmedia.thenewstribune.com/media/2006%20NFL%20RULEBOOK.pdf
The NCAA 2009-10 equivalent appears to be:
QuoteARTICLE 4. No eligible offensive receiver who goes out of bounds during a
down shall touch a legal forward pass in the field of play or end zones or while
airborne until it has been touched by an opponent or official (A.R. 7-3-4-I-III).
[Exception: This does not apply to an eligible offensive player who attempts
to return inbounds immediately after going out of bounds due to contact by an
opponent (A.R. 7-3-4-IV)].
http://www.ncaapublications.com/Uploads/PDF/Football_Rules_5_2204c0005d-845f-4813-8391-54f15136079d.pdf
Quote from: Neil on July 30, 2009, 10:08:38 AM
I guess it isn't ineligible receiver, but illegal touching. Either way, if he runs out and is the first to touch a forward pass, it's a five-yard penalty.
IN each case, the receiver is eligible, under NFHS (high school) rules. The pass and catch is actually perfectly legal. The thing is, OOB for a player is defined as
touching anything out of bounds - therefore, even though he never touched "in bounds", he was actually in bounds when he leaped in the air,since he was no longer touching OOB.
In A), you have a legal pass and catch, but a penalty on A1 for illegal participation. No player who goes out of bounds can return to the field of play and participate in a play. The catch was legal, but his landing back in the field of play is illegal participation, 15 yard penalty.
In B), same thing.
However, the kicker is C. Here we have a player that goes OOB, but when he hits the ball, he is NOT out of bounds, nor has he "returned to the field of play" - he is in bounds (since he is not out of bounds - there is no definition for in bounds), but he has NOT returned to the field of play.
This play, by rule, is perfectly legal.
Quote from: ulmont on July 30, 2009, 10:14:46 AM
Quote
Where is that rule cite coming from?
NFL 2006 Official Rulebook, which is the only one I can easily find online (the NFL site just has the digest up). http://blogmedia.thenewstribune.com/media/2006%20NFL%20RULEBOOK.pdf
Ahh, ok, we are going with high school (NFHS) rules.
Which, rather fucking annoyingly, are not online since the NFHS apaprently wants you to pay them for them. Freaking stupid.
Quote from: ulmont on July 30, 2009, 10:19:24 AM
The NCAA 2009-10 equivalent appears to be:
QuoteARTICLE 4. No eligible offensive receiver who goes out of bounds during a
down shall touch a legal forward pass in the field of play or end zones or while
airborne until it has been touched by an opponent or official (A.R. 7-3-4-I-III).
[Exception: This does not apply to an eligible offensive player who attempts
to return inbounds immediately after going out of bounds due to contact by an
opponent (A.R. 7-3-4-IV)].
http://www.ncaapublications.com/Uploads/PDF/Football_Rules_5_2204c0005d-845f-4813-8391-54f15136079d.pdf
The NCAA has a MUCH better rule than the NFHS here, IMO.
Alternatively, they need to define "out of bounds" the way it is in basketball - once you go out of bounds, you remain out of bounds until you establish yourself in bounds.
Quote from: Berkut on July 30, 2009, 10:22:27 AM
Quote from: ulmont on July 30, 2009, 10:14:46 AM
Quote
Where is that rule cite coming from?
NFL 2006 Official Rulebook, which is the only one I can easily find online (the NFL site just has the digest up). http://blogmedia.thenewstribune.com/media/2006%20NFL%20RULEBOOK.pdf
Ahh, ok, we are going with high school (NFHS) rules.
Which, rather fucking annoyingly, are not online since the NFHS apaprently wants you to pay them for them. Freaking stupid.
Of course they do.
I don't know anything about US high school rules.
Quote from: Berkut on July 30, 2009, 09:37:09 AM
Went to my first meeting for the upcoming football season.
Had a interesteing case play presented for discussion:
QuoteThe score A-6, B-7 with 1 minute to play in the game. A's ball 4th and goal at the 10. A1 throws a legal forward pass which is intercepted by B1 in the end zone. B1 immediately after making the catch in celebrating his teams stop of A throws the ball which lands at the 20 yard line. B1 was never down.
Anyone interested in taking a stab at the ruling? It isn't that hard, just an interesting situation.
I haven't read any other responses before posting this.
Should be an illegal forward pass, which would be post possession, meaning the ball would stay with B; the penalty being committed in B's end zone should make it a safety though. 2 points for A and B kicks the ball back to A?
EDIT- WOOHOO!!