Let's say he is not... quite what Europe's leftists like me expected.
Was RFK Junior ever on a good path, as an environmental lawyer, or has he always been a milk-drinking sociopath?
The Kennedy legacy is, obviously, powerful. Lots of strange people seem to claim John junior is alive and is Trump's co-pilot. And oddity, really.
But let me ask you Americans, was RFK Junior sort of doomed from the off? His father's legacy was short-lived, but it seems to me, RFK 2.0. had every chance of stepping behind Ted and become a liberal icon, but rather snorted charlie off toilet seats and then at a late stage, remembered, oh, shit I need to leave a mark too.
I would probably, if I were American, have voted for a younger RFK or the philandering Ted up to the noughthies.
So where did it all go wrong?
Yeah so...while I was aware of his environmental past you have to understand the weird granola -> fascist pipeline we have in the US. Like we used to have cranks and weirdos on the left who talked about natural whatever and crystal meditation blah blah and rejected modern science and medicine and all that. And a large number of those people went crazy far right during the COVID epidemic. Now is RFK Jr one of those sorts of people? I don't know but he sort of became their guy.
They genuinely believe that all health problems are due to modernity and if we just attuned to nature and sat in saunas and exercised we would all be super healthy. Obviously very reactionary nonsense, but given all the pollution and shenanigans pharma and health insurance companies get up to you can understand the appeal.
The idea he was going to work for the environment was obviously a lie once he signed on with Trump.
As for if he had the potential to be some liberal leftwing icon, I have to admit I had never heard of him prior to his rightward turn and how he suddenly became the darling of every insane person I knew during COVID. So I don't know.
Personally I'm not a fan of political dynasties, so the fact that he's a Kennedy actually works against him. That he's also nuts just reinforces my distaste.
Same as Valmy he wasn't really on my radar until his crazy became obvious.
Quote from: Valmy on February 19, 2026, 10:13:52 AMThey genuinely believe that all health problems are due to modernity and if we just attuned to nature and sat in saunas and exercised we would all be super healthy. Obviously very reactionary nonsense, but given all the pollution and shenanigans pharma and health insurance companies get up to you can understand the appeal.
Sad to say, we did that before you. Most offshoots of the Rudolf Steiner schools believe measles and death are good for you.
Taking a pill for something is like suicide for your soul etc.
While covid somewhat culled the herd in Europe (and killed a lot of old people just trying not to die), the MAHA trend has surprisingly low traction here.
A quick search shows that RFK jr. has sought the Democratic party's nomination quite a few times. The anti-vaccine crowd is... probably a greater threat to human existence than heart disease and smoking are. Didn't we have some of those "listen to your body" types here?
All know Trump's administration will hardly open new national parks or say, hey, why don't we pay Brazil's socialist president to stop chopping down trees in the Amazonas, just for fun?
I will give Bobby this, he said what Trump eats is "poison".
Quote from: Valmy on February 19, 2026, 10:13:52 AMAnd a large number of those people went crazy far right during the COVID epidemic.
It started before that. The paleo/raw food movement gained a lot of traction in the young, "manly" right with shit like the Caveman Diet. It tied pretty closely to the right's glorification of (distorted views of) ancient Greece and Rome. Another instance of the horseshoe, where two seemingly opposed groups come to roughly the same point from opposite directions.
I'm not sure how long this will last. There are some in the MAGAt camp who stand to make a lot of money, directly or indirectly, off the medicines that RFK, Jr. Dr. Oz, and their ilk are demonizing and defunding. At some point it will come down to the money or the cult, and I'm not sure which one is stronger at the moment.
The Cult will kill a lot of children while also costing them so much potential money. I don't know how the Cult can survive that.
The New Agey MAGA stuff is mostly orthogonal to US political divisions. Kennedy could have endorsed either side; he went Trump b/c Trump offered him a cabinet slot and Harris wouldn't. Those ideas have an anti-establishment vibe so tended left in the 60s-70s but is more receptive to the right now.
He did coke from toilet seats. This made him the darling of any US administration.
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on February 19, 2026, 10:56:19 AMQuote from: Valmy on February 19, 2026, 10:13:52 AMAnd a large number of those people went crazy far right during the COVID epidemic.
It started before that. The paleo/raw food movement gained a lot of traction in the young, "manly" right with shit like the Caveman Diet. It tied pretty closely to the right's glorification of (distorted views of) ancient Greece and Rome. Another instance of the horseshoe, where two seemingly opposed groups come to roughly the same point from opposite directions.
I'm not sure how long this will last. There are some in the MAGAt camp who stand to make a lot of money, directly or indirectly, off the medicines that RFK, Jr. Dr. Oz, and their ilk are demonizing and defunding. At some point it will come down to the money or the cult, and I'm not sure which one is stronger at the moment.
There is lot of money to be made defunding science and vaccines by promoting other products to replace them, which explains the MAHA movement. And btw is largely how Oz made his money.
Quote from: Norgy on February 19, 2026, 09:58:38 AMSo where did it all go wrong?
I kinda wonder what might have been different in US politics if JFK Jr wasn't into flying.
Quote from: crazy canuck on February 19, 2026, 12:46:15 PMQuote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on February 19, 2026, 10:56:19 AMQuote from: Valmy on February 19, 2026, 10:13:52 AMAnd a large number of those people went crazy far right during the COVID epidemic.
It started before that. The paleo/raw food movement gained a lot of traction in the young, "manly" right with shit like the Caveman Diet. It tied pretty closely to the right's glorification of (distorted views of) ancient Greece and Rome. Another instance of the horseshoe, where two seemingly opposed groups come to roughly the same point from opposite directions.
I'm not sure how long this will last. There are some in the MAGAt camp who stand to make a lot of money, directly or indirectly, off the medicines that RFK, Jr. Dr. Oz, and their ilk are demonizing and defunding. At some point it will come down to the money or the cult, and I'm not sure which one is stronger at the moment.
There is lot of money to be made defunding science and vaccines by promoting other products to replace them, which explains the MAHA movement. And btw is largely how Oz made his money.
Especially if the product is tap water and some food coloring or some mostly non-poisonous food like paste. SOmething that costs pennies to get to the shelves but can be sold for a premium.
Quote from: Tonitrus on February 19, 2026, 02:22:00 PMQuote from: Norgy on February 19, 2026, 09:58:38 AMSo where did it all go wrong?
I kinda wonder what might have been different in US politics if JFK Jr wasn't into flying.
You'd have a prettier coked up Kennedy? :unsure:
Anti-vaccination, whole food, raw milk stuff codes extremely progressive and left-wing here. These people wear home-knitted wool sweaters like this.
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQVc70WbamG-DY5a_iMp8aWgjL7aIDP3Xqb_Q&s)
They are also big into gardening and vegetable growing for home-use. My wife maps very well onto this minus the positive thoughts on raw milk and measles.
You're about a decade and a half behind us. Give it time. . The right has an uncanny way of co-opting loony left stuff and somehow making it worse.
Quote from: Legbiter on February 19, 2026, 04:37:48 PMAnti-vaccination, whole food, raw milk stuff codes extremely progressive and left-wing here. These people wear home-knitted wool sweaters like this.
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQVc70WbamG-DY5a_iMp8aWgjL7aIDP3Xqb_Q&s)
They are also big into gardening and vegetable growing for home-use. My wife maps very well onto this minus the positive thoughts on raw milk and measles.
I am not sure what you are complaining about there
Quote from: HVC on February 19, 2026, 04:52:18 PMYou're about a decade and a half behind us. Give it time. . The right has an uncanny way of co-opting loony left stuff and somehow making it worse.
Probably, but euro food isn't as crappy as us food due to regulation.
But loonies will loon, and we've got our fair share of anti-vac idiots too here.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on February 19, 2026, 11:32:25 AMThe New Agey MAGA stuff is mostly orthogonal to US political divisions. Kennedy could have endorsed either side; he went Trump b/c Trump offered him a cabinet slot and Harris wouldn't. Those ideas have an anti-establishment vibe so tended left in the 60s-70s but is more receptive to the right now.
:lol: Yeah so this is an area I feel slightly orthogonal to as well - because I think there is a degree of negative polarisation.
So I think the FBI and the CIA are bad - I might even, if I were being melodramatic, call them a deep state. They advance a set of interests that occasionally overlap with things I think are good but broadly speaking we've got, say, 100 years of the FBI and generally speaking I don't think it's a good thing for a democratic society. They have a long record of being hostile to freedom and to democratic power and I don't thing it's wise to give that position up just because there's a degree of hostility with Trump.
Similarly there is no area where I feel more fully European than the idea that food and drug regulation are fundamntally different spheres. Unpasteurised milk does wonderful things, you can't make champagne in California and just because you nuke something with a million chemical additives doesn't make it "healthy".
So I kind of think it's okay for Mitt Romney to be aligned with the FBI and Twinkies - I'm not sure it works for the Democrats :ph34r:
Quote from: HVC on February 19, 2026, 03:59:17 PMQuote from: Tonitrus on February 19, 2026, 02:22:00 PMQuote from: Norgy on February 19, 2026, 09:58:38 AMSo where did it all go wrong?
I kinda wonder what might have been different in US politics if JFK Jr wasn't into flying.
You'd have a prettier coked up Kennedy? :unsure:
I am probably wrong, but I had the impression that JFK Jr was degrees more wholesome than the usual reputation for Kennedy men.
Unless he really is Q.
Quote from: crazy canuck on February 19, 2026, 05:29:08 PMI am not sure what you are complaining about there
Not complaining at all. ^_^ It's just weird to me that this outlook is now right-wing coded in the US.
Quote from: Tonitrus on February 19, 2026, 05:59:19 PMQuote from: HVC on February 19, 2026, 03:59:17 PMQuote from: Tonitrus on February 19, 2026, 02:22:00 PMQuote from: Norgy on February 19, 2026, 09:58:38 AMSo where did it all go wrong?
I kinda wonder what might have been different in US politics if JFK Jr wasn't into flying.
You'd have a prettier coked up Kennedy? :unsure:
I am probably wrong, but I had the impression that JFK Jr was degrees more wholesome than the usual reputation for Kennedy men.
Unless he really is Q.
My, perhaps faulty, recollection was that he was a playboy addict with a failing business and not much upstairs. You know, a Kennedy :D
*Good rollerblader though :P
Hmm... I'm pro-home-knitted-sweaters, pro-raw-milk-cheese on the basis of flavour, but also pro-vaccination. I'm in favour of growing vegetables for home use, but too lazy to actually do it.
I guess that makes me a moderate?
The raw milk crowd is usually talking about the actual milk, not cheese. They're the ones you hear about in the news once in a while dying from things like listeria and e coli. Not sure of the process but I guess cheesifying the milk makes it safer. I think most cheese is Europe is produced from raw milk, isn't it?
*edit*
Google, so everyone knows the caveats
"Aging Process: In the U.S. and Canada, cheese made from raw milk must be aged for a minimum of 60 days before it can be sold legally. This aging period, combined with the development of acidity and salt content in the cheese, creates an environment where most pathogenic bacteria struggle to survive or are outcompeted by beneficial bacteria."
You can buy raw milk in lots of European countries.
It's nothing to do with safety - it's industrial capture of regulators in America and MacDonaldisation and mass production of food is not "safer".
As I say on drugs I find RFK Jr despicable - but on the food industry in the US, I'm less sure. I'm really sorry but I'm not going to take what the FDA - the regulatory backstop behind bread with a six month expiry date - as the sine qua non of food safety.
Isn't europes most common milk the UHT pasteurized kind that comes in boxes and is self stabile for an insane amount of time? I remember being weirded out by unrefrigertaed milk on shelves last time I was there :D tastes weird too,
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 19, 2026, 05:51:33 PMSimilarly there is no area where I feel more fully European than the idea that food and drug regulation are fundamntally different spheres. Unpasteurised milk does wonderful things, you can't make champagne in California and just because you nuke something with a million chemical additives doesn't make it "healthy".
So I kind of think it's okay for Mitt Romney to be aligned with the FBI and Twinkies - I'm not sure it works for the Democrats :ph34r:
Historically the origin of food regulation in the US is from the first Progressive era. That's a movement which crossed party lines but was somewhat more associated with "good government" Republicans. Their political descendants also cross-party lines today but are more concentrated in the wonkish wing of the Democrats.
The politics of "food MAHAism" is still not clear to me - but my sense is that the working poor are not as committed to the idea of natural foods or terroir based wine making . . .
All this is really irrelevant to RFK though, because FDA regulation isn't being replaced by enlightened naturalism, but by a deregulatory void for corporate exploitation. That may be by intention or just because RFK doesn't have a clue about how to run an agency, but the result is the same.
:lol: Sure but that's just because only children drink milk :P
But also I really think there is a huge problem in the US of regulatory capture around food and I think a politics that is really into that and the FBI is not a winner. You need space for at least some of the hippy-dippy new agey types (or, indeed, Obelix types following a family tradition and curing meat and making cheese in a barn).
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 19, 2026, 06:40:46 PMYou can buy raw milk in lots of European countries.
It's nothing to do with safety - it's industrial capture of regulators in America and MacDonaldisation and mass production of food is not "safer".
Oh my, so much misinformation, so little time to correct it.
Raw milk definitely has safety risks, namely food poisoning. Pasteurization eliminates that risk. If a source of raw milk can be found where there is a high degree of confidence that the practices used to obtain, store and ship the milk has a low chance of being contaminated with salmonella, E. coli and listeria then of course the risk is reduced.
But have you ever actually been to a diary farm? You do realize there is shit every where right? You would need to have a very high degree confidence the diary farmer has taken all necessary precautions.
Cheese from raw milk is a different matter - the risk there is much lower.
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 19, 2026, 06:53:09 PM:lol: Sure but that's just because only children drink milk :P
But also I really think there is a huge problem in the US of regulatory capture around food and I think a politics that is really into that and the FBI is not a winner. You need space for at least some of the hippy-dippy new agey types (or, indeed, Obelix types following a family tradition and curing meat and making cheese in a barn).
Not all of us drink blended bleached grass seed juice :P
I'm not actually a milk person, probably haven't a glass of milk in over a year. The raw milk crowd just annoys me. Well, the ones I'm aware of in NA. European ones may well differ.
That being said, Minsky put it well. RFK isn't the safer food Jesus, he's just deregulating everything and seeing we're the chips fall. And historically we know what happens when food safety is ignored. An imperfect system isn't great, but it's better then no system.
Quote from: Legbiter on February 19, 2026, 06:06:07 PMQuote from: crazy canuck on February 19, 2026, 05:29:08 PMI am not sure what you are complaining about there
Not complaining at all. ^_^ It's just weird to me that this outlook is now right-wing coded in the US.
Because they don't have any good consumer pointed regulations and their healthcare system is stupid, they are easily coerced against their interest by those that pretend that they will help them.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on February 19, 2026, 06:51:29 PMHistorically the origin of food regulation in the US is from the first Progressive era. That's a movement which crossed party lines but was somewhat more associated with "good government" Republicans. Their political descendants also cross-party lines today but are more concentrated in the wonkish wing of the Democrats.
The politics of "food MAHAism" is still not clear to me - but my sense is that the working poor are not as committed to the idea of natural foods or terroir based wine making . . .
All this is really irrelevant to RFK though, because FDA regulation isn't being replaced by enlightened naturalism, but by a deregulatory void for corporate exploitation. That may be by intention or just because RFK doesn't have a clue about how to run an agency, but the result is the same.
Yeah - I agree but I think he's filling a void (I think it's a bit like unease around conversations about masculinity and young men - the gap will be filled).
In RFK's case I think there is a a vague suspicion that American food regulation isn't healthy - and 25 years ago I suspect every single person on this forum currently defending American food regulation as a good thing would have agreed that it's unhealthy and been on the side of Jose Bove. And they would have been right. I think we're negatively polarised away from that - a distasteful person who is wrong is talking about it so we oppose which I don't think is adequate.
American food regulation has absolutely been captured by not just big business but some of the most objectionable companies in the world - we should have a language for talking about that and 25 years ago the left did. From a Euro-perpsective I still think there is an alternative which is a different type of regulation around production and terroir not just nuking food with enough chemicals to make it safe after the event - I'm not convinced by a food regulation system that needs pasteurisation but allows pumping cattle full of hormones or washing chicken carcasses in chlorine. Great for mass, low standard production and companse that can buy the necessary chemicals but it's a regime that's actively hostile to slower food that has good production values at all stages.
The point isn't that RFK is right - but that "we love the FDA" isn't an adequate respone. Or, more broadly I think the anti-MAGA coalition needs space for people who may not buy into "deep state" stuff but are civil libertarians and hate the FBI (as they shoud) and it also needs space for hippy-dippy raw milk moms.
And I agree on the politics of food MAHAism - but I do think the aesthetics of it are interesting. Because from a UK perspective what it most resembles is the people campaigning against "ultra-processed food" plus crossfit :lol: My own view is that I think we probably need both and should allow both and it's not helpful (or, perhaps, healthy) to polarise politically on these aesthetic issues (and, as a European food snob, it'll be a cold day in hell before I consider American food regulationat something worth defending :ph34r: I think there's fabulous food and produce in the US but I think that's often at high cost and in spite of big company favouring regulations).
Quote from: crazy canuck on February 19, 2026, 06:56:11 PMQuote from: Sheilbh on February 19, 2026, 06:40:46 PMYou can buy raw milk in lots of European countries.
It's nothing to do with safety - it's industrial capture of regulators in America and MacDonaldisation and mass production of food is not "safer".
Oh my, so much misinformation, so little time to correct it.
Raw milk definitely has safety risks, namely food poisoning. Pasteurization eliminates that risk. If a source of raw milk can be found where there is a high degree of confidence that the practices used to obtain, store and ship the milk has a low chance of being contaminated with salmonella, E. coli and listeria then of course the risk is reduced.
But have you ever actually been to a diary farm? You do realize there is shit every where right? You would need to have a very high degree confidence the diary farmer has taken all necessary precautions.
Cheese from raw milk is a different matter - the risk there is much lower.
This was the public safety lesson learnt in the the early 20th century, I don't know why people think in the 21st century that a different one can be an outcome?
It is part of a larger revolt against elites. All experts, including health officials and doctors are part of the elite class. If not by wealth than by education.
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 19, 2026, 07:43:11 PMIn RFK's case I think there is a a vague suspicion that American food regulation isn't healthy - and 25 years ago I suspect every single person on this forum currently defending American food regulation as a good thing would have agreed that it's unhealthy and been on the side of Jose Bove. And they would have been right. I think we're negatively polarised away from that - a distasteful person who is wrong is talking about it so we oppose which I don't think is adequate.
I definitely wouldn't of agreed with you 25 years ago. The conservative push towards deregulation had already started by then, and I was very skeptical of the benefits of that. Every large organization can benefit from reform, but that's very different from advocating for its elimination on principle and we already had the start of that movement.
Quote from: mongers on February 19, 2026, 08:07:23 PMQuote from: crazy canuck on February 19, 2026, 06:56:11 PMQuote from: Sheilbh on February 19, 2026, 06:40:46 PMYou can buy raw milk in lots of European countries.
It's nothing to do with safety - it's industrial capture of regulators in America and MacDonaldisation and mass production of food is not "safer".
Oh my, so much misinformation, so little time to correct it.
Raw milk definitely has safety risks, namely food poisoning. Pasteurization eliminates that risk. If a source of raw milk can be found where there is a high degree of confidence that the practices used to obtain, store and ship the milk has a low chance of being contaminated with salmonella, E. coli and listeria then of course the risk is reduced.
But have you ever actually been to a diary farm? You do realize there is shit every where right? You would need to have a very high degree confidence the diary farmer has taken all necessary precautions.
Cheese from raw milk is a different matter - the risk there is much lower.
This was the public safety lesson learnt in the the early 20th century, I don't know why people think in the 21st century that a different one can be an outcome?
My pet theory is that a lot of people's knowledge extends only as far back as an Internet search will reach.
Pasteurisation was probably the fundamental change that made dairy products more available even for kids in the city.
Milk from the cow, if you had one, had a shelf life of one to two days before pasteurisation.
The MAHA crowd seems to reject any idea of eating vegetables and firmly grasps "proteins" as what will make you ripped and healthy. Joe Rogan is one such person.
I think the health secretary may have confused raw milk with whole milk. But that is just a theory.
Most Europeans, I believe, look at the lax regulation of American food industries and nod at how the EU has banned this and that additive (even though allowing huge amounts of antibiotics in animal feed).
The fact of the matter that across continents, people eat a lot of affordable crap instead of healthy, and somewhat unaffordable foods. A good cut of a farmed salmon is around 30 to 38 Euro per kilo in Norway. And we produce this shit. A frozen ultra-processed pizza is 4 Euro. For 700 grams or so of flour, "cheese" and "ham" and some red stuff claiming to be tomato.
The label "ultra-processed" is somewhat problematic as well, as it applies to both Doritos and the method of making liver paste and some traditional sausages.
Quote from: mongers on February 19, 2026, 08:07:23 PMQuote from: crazy canuck on February 19, 2026, 06:56:11 PMQuote from: Sheilbh on February 19, 2026, 06:40:46 PMYou can buy raw milk in lots of European countries.
It's nothing to do with safety - it's industrial capture of regulators in America and MacDonaldisation and mass production of food is not "safer".
Oh my, so much misinformation, so little time to correct it.
Raw milk definitely has safety risks, namely food poisoning. Pasteurization eliminates that risk. If a source of raw milk can be found where there is a high degree of confidence that the practices used to obtain, store and ship the milk has a low chance of being contaminated with salmonella, E. coli and listeria then of course the risk is reduced.
But have you ever actually been to a diary farm? You do realize there is shit every where right? You would need to have a very high degree confidence the diary farmer has taken all necessary precautions.
Cheese from raw milk is a different matter - the risk there is much lower.
This was the public safety lesson learnt in the the early 20th century, I don't know why people think in the 21st century that a different one can be an outcome?
Because truth is dead, knowledge is suspect and we now have a tradition of idiots trying the same thing over and over and over in the hope results will be different this time round
We have a whole generation or two of people who think doing their own "research" makes their ideas more valid than the people who do real research.
Quote from: crazy canuck on February 20, 2026, 12:53:54 PMWe have a whole generation or two of people who think doing their own "research" makes their ideas more valid than the people who do real research.
Nah, man. This is our time.
To stand up, and say no, we believe a science-based approach to any issue is needed.
I believe in facts not the ones who run for office on hearsay and...
Oh. Right.
We lost, didn't we? Well, at least our forebrethren ended slavery.
THEY DID NOT? Norwegian evangelicals thought those blacks were half human? Jesus.
What next? That Norwegian immigrants were Republicans. That my great grandfather was.
Well. At least daddy's Labour Party was very much at the forefront of human rights. Right? RIGHT?
Oh. They believed themselves better than niggers and accepted apartheid. So...
Did we... do any good? Our leaders were cohorts of Jeffrey Epstein? Right.
Anything else?
We failed both Israel and the PLO?
Right.
But I think at least mrs. Brundtland did something good?
Oh, dear, she was in the pay of Pepsico like Nixon? Damn. We really know how to pick them.
What about her report on human condition?
"She could not care less". Right'o. And the environment? "Let us just agree on something inane like sustainable development".
Oh, dear.
So we lost?
Yeah, big time, mate. Want some carbs?
Quote from: Norgy on February 20, 2026, 02:49:35 AMThe MAHA crowd seems to reject any idea of eating vegetables and firmly grasps "proteins" as what will make you ripped and healthy. Joe Rogan is one such person.
Oh yeah absolutely. Paleo plus steroids.
QuoteI think the health secretary may have confused raw milk with whole milk. But that is just a theory.
Most Europeans, I believe, look at the lax regulation of American food industries and nod at how the EU has banned this and that additive (even though allowing huge amounts of antibiotics in animal feed).
The fact of the matter that across continents, people eat a lot of affordable crap instead of healthy, and somewhat unaffordable foods. A good cut of a farmed salmon is around 30 to 38 Euro per kilo in Norway. And we produce this shit. A frozen ultra-processed pizza is 4 Euro. For 700 grams or so of flour, "cheese" and "ham" and some red stuff claiming to be tomato.
Yeah I think these are connected though - especially in the US. That it isn't just lax regulation but also the structure of the regulation that gives an advantage to that mass-produced, chemical heavy food industy. It isn't just lax regulation but the type of regulation designed to advantage big players and entrench their market position.
As I say I don't think RFK is a good thing but let's not rush to pretend that the American food industry - or regulatory framework that produced it (or vice-versa) - was a model of high-minded, disinterest solely motivated by safety and quality. I don't think we should form a shieldwall around the FDA.
I think there is something to the argument that our food is part of what is making us unwell and if the only people making that argument are on the right that's not a good thing. See also the crisis in masculinity or the FBI.
QuoteThe label "ultra-processed" is somewhat problematic as well, as it applies to both Doritos and the method of making liver paste and some traditional sausages.
Yes it is. There's a doctor who wrote a hit book here about "ultra-processed food", he gets loads of column inches in the Guardian and TV shows etc. The book was very well reviewed - but also absolutely torn apart by science journalists. For example he basically doesn't seem to believe in calories being relevant for weight loss/gain - in his view it's all about the type of food the makeup of the diet.
But I saw a clip of him being pushed on what "UPF" actually is, with examples like you gave of relatively traditional products that on his definition are "ultra-processed" and he ended up saying that what matters is whether it's made for profit or with love :lol: :bleeding:
But as I say I'm a food ponce. I generally believe if you make food from real ingredients as much as you can and you'll probably be fine.
Problem I have with the "natural food" pushers is that chemically they're the same. I remember during the 90s msg scare when people were saying to use mushrooms or seaweed stock as alternatives for umami flavour. You know why those foods did that? Because they're super high in Glutamate :lol: . Sure it's missing the sodium, but you can thankfully make up for that with the table salt you use :P . Like most natural food crazes it was a fear of science more than anything else. And well some racism thrown in for msg.
Same shit with pink salt (the presevative, not the rip off mountain salt). Too much nitrate or nitrite is bad sure, but thats why it's used in miniscule quanitites in deli meats. Historically people either salted their meats and sausages so much modern people would find it unpalatable or used saltpeter or calcium nitrate found by scrapped off the walls of caves or cheese cellars. People knew food was dangerous. Too few people die from foodborne illness now (good) but it makes people do and think some dumb stuff.
Also, you know what's chock full of nitrates? Healthy Arugula and spinach.
In closing i told you all this was a trigger for me. Also, i hate everyone.
Not you sheilbh, I still love you :P
Thats not to say there arent bad product or processes out there. It's just that the majority of it is emotive and uninformed. I'm hungry now.
Quote from: HVC on February 20, 2026, 04:53:46 PMNot you sheilbh, I still love you :P
:lol: :ph34r:
In my partial defence I'm not really into natural food either.
And I don't particularly care about chemicals themselves as chemicals - I'm just more anti food industry :ph34r: (And 100% with you on MSG - and I'm not a pink salt person but I swear by Maldon sea salt).
All fancy (non preserving kind) sea salts are like 99% sodium chloride. I doubt you could pass a blind taste test :D . Different presentations like flake or kosher can impart different "tastes" (really varying salt concentrations) but you can get that much cheaper from "normal" salt in different grains. Most (all? ) mined salt comes from ancient seabeds, so it's all sea salt, some is just a few million or billion years old :lol:
And now I swing again :lol: :P Because I strongly disagree - food is not just chemicals. It is ingredients (and, yes, terroir) and skill and centuries of technique and knowledge behind it.
I was a convert to Maldon because I tried it I think in a restaurant and it blew me away. But it's not just the taste so much (though that is factor) but also the texture. I'm confident I could taste the difference (although I disagree with flavoured salts - I can just about accept smoking it :ph34r: It's like a local bakery near me that is fantastic but just keeps on doing "innovative" takes on the classics and I don't like it a good pain suisse is a fabulous thing but we don't need to be doing chai versions, not everything needs to be Starbucks <_< :lol:).
But there's been salt production in salt pans in Maldon since at least the Roman times, the company I buy from has been going since the 19th century - I think it is a better product and that stuff matters but that stuff is also why it's a better product that cannot be replicated by anti-septic mostly American food multinationals because it's not just chemicals :P :ph34r:
That's what im saying though, it's the texture and different concentrations of saltiness you get from larger grain sizes that make it that way. You can get that cheaper (and less pretentious :P ) in "normal" flake salt (or try different grain sizes)
If you still want you can get fancy salt from the algarve much cheaper and has been taken from salt pans since before the Roman's swept in
As for " centuries of technique", everything was new once. Hell go back a generation or two the classics you love now were very much different in both technique and taste. You're worse than an Italian :ph34r:
Quote from: HVC on February 20, 2026, 05:47:16 PMAs for " centuries of technique", everything was new once. Hell go back a generation or two the classics you love now were very much different both technique and taste. You're worse than an Italian :ph34r:
:lol: :ph34r:
Of course technique and taste and accessibility of ingredients has changed and tomorrow's will be different too. But it is from centuries of technique in any event - especially when connected to the land. The produce of a region combining with the genius of its peasants leading to what we now consider classics (obviously this didn't happen in England because we destroyed the peasantry and adopted a capitalist proletarianised agriculture very, very early).
But every recipe is grounded on the centuries of skilled technique, knowledge, invention and labour often of women in a region even (perhaps precisely) as it changes and adapts. It's of a culture, which doesn't mean it's unchanging or pure or exclusive - one of the things I love about food is that it is so open to us all and democratic. You don't even need subtitles or translation to enjoy it, it's immediate.
Quote from: HVC on February 20, 2026, 05:40:58 PMThat's what im saying though, it's the texture and different concentrations of saltiness you get from larger grain sizes that make it that way. You can get that cheaper (and less pretentious :P ) in "normal" flake salt (or try different grain sizes)
If you still want you can get fancy salt from the algarve much cheaper and has been taken from salt pans since before the Roman's swept in
I just looked at Tesco and I dont think that is true. They have no "normal" flake salt. Maldon looks to be the cheapest flaky salt.
Huh, is that a UK thing of a tesco thing? I can get flake salt here pretty easily. Use it for grilled meat. Kosher for grilled fish. And table salt for anything liquid. For me anyway.
If it's cheap then by all means use it. I was under the impression from speaking with sheilbh that it was an expensive fad salt, which is where my ire lies.
Oh no - it's not an expensive fad salt. It's everywhere and affordable but life-changing having grown up with table salt in a shaker :lol:
The only really fancy salt I've ever got tempted into is Welsh sea salt - but all your points stand v Maldon which is easier to get and cheaper.
Quote from: Legbiter on February 19, 2026, 04:37:48 PMAnti-vaccination, whole food, raw milk stuff codes extremely progressive and left-wing here. These people wear home-knitted wool sweaters like this.
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQVc70WbamG-DY5a_iMp8aWgjL7aIDP3Xqb_Q&s)
They are also big into gardening and vegetable growing for home-use. My wife maps very well onto this minus the positive thoughts on raw milk and measles.
Yeah that used to be the case here. But well those people went far right here.
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 20, 2026, 05:09:11 PMQuote from: HVC on February 20, 2026, 04:53:46 PMNot you sheilbh, I still love you :P
:lol: :ph34r:
In my partial defence I'm not really into natural food either.
And I don't particularly care about chemicals themselves as chemicals - I'm just more anti food industry :ph34r: (And 100% with you on MSG - and I'm not a pink salt person but I swear by Maldon sea salt).
Well then you will be delighted to know that RFK Jr endorsed Trump's big move to massively increase the use of Glyphosate-based herbicides for food. So we will get a massive number of chemicals in our food PLUS no vaccines. Cool.