So... There's this big story in the US of a crazy guy shooting a insurance company ceo.
Apparently a big take today is that this guy was part of a game club at University and played a game where he pretended to be an assassin and this is how he came to be a killer.
Among us.
He played among us.
Quote from: Josquius on December 10, 2024, 04:46:51 PMSo... There's this big story in the US of a crazy guy shooting a insurance company ceo.
Apparently a big take today is that this guy was part of a game club at University and played a game where he pretended to be an assassin and this is how he came to be a killer.
Among us.
He played among us.
Main coverage I saw today was thirsty people oogling him.
Quote from: Josquius on December 10, 2024, 04:46:51 PMSo... There's this big story in the US of a crazy guy shooting a insurance company ceo.
Apparently a big take today is that this guy was part of a game club at University and played a game where he pretended to be an assassin and this is how he came to be a killer.
Among us.
He played among us.
He's turning into the folk hero of our time.
Quote from: garbon on December 10, 2024, 05:04:34 PMMain coverage I saw today was thirsty people oogling him.
:lol: Same.
Quote from: garbon on December 10, 2024, 05:04:34 PMQuote from: Josquius on December 10, 2024, 04:46:51 PMSo... There's this big story in the US of a crazy guy shooting a insurance company ceo.
Apparently a big take today is that this guy was part of a game club at University and played a game where he pretended to be an assassin and this is how he came to be a killer.
Among us.
He played among us.
Main coverage I saw today was thirsty people oogling him.
And a lot of lack of sympathy for the victim, which, given how his insurance handles business (and generally the insurance system in the US which causes people to die, bankrupt etc.) is not really surprising - at least from my admittedly outside perspective.
Well, when you lose your house because a family member had a catastrophic illness, you can understand why people don't like insurance guys. You know, like me.
https://www.kenklippenstein.com/p/luigis-manifesto
QuoteI've obtained a copy of suspected killer Luigi Mangione's manifesto — the real one, not the forgery circulating online. Major media outlets are also in possession of the document but have refused to publish it and not even articulated a reason why. My queries to The New York Times, The Washington Post, CNN and NBC to explain their rationale for withholding the manifesto, while gladly quoting from it selectively, have not been answered.
I'll have more to say on this later — on how unhealthy the media's drift away from public disclosure is — but for now, here's the manifesto:
Quote"To the Feds, I'll keep this short, because I do respect what you do for our country. To save you a lengthy investigation, I state plainly that I wasn't working with anyone. This was fairly trivial: some elementary social engineering, basic CAD, a lot of patience. The spiral notebook, if present, has some straggling notes and To Do lists that illuminate the gist of it. My tech is pretty locked down because I work in engineering so probably not much info there. I do apologize for any strife of traumas but it had to be done. Frankly, these parasites simply had it coming. A reminder: the US has the #1 most expensive healthcare system in the world, yet we rank roughly #42 in life expectancy. United is the [indecipherable] largest company in the US by market cap, behind only Apple, Google, Walmart. It has grown and grown, but as our life expectancy? No the reality is, these [indecipherable] have simply gotten too powerful, and they continue to abuse our country for immense profit because the American public has allwed them to get away with it. Obviously the problem is more complex, but I do not have space, and frankly I do not pretend to be the most qualified person to lay out the full argument. But many have illuminated the corruption and greed (e.g.: Rosenthal, Moore), decades ago and the problems simply remain. It is not an issue of awareness at this point, but clearly power games at play. Evidently I am the first to face it with such brutal honesty."
Unsure if reliable/authentic.
From what I've seen of the killers views - lots of social media screen grabs flying about - it does seem to have been a big leopards ate my face sequence of events for him.
Who is Ken Klippenstein?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Klippenstein
Quote from: Syt on December 11, 2024, 05:01:24 AMhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Klippenstein
So a person who has a wikipedia article with a section dedicated to online pranks? :P
This widespread approval of vigilante murder is really disturbing me. I'm not saying that health insurance industry is a nice one, or that UHC is the comparatively nice player in that nice industry, but reality is always a lot more complex.
Yes, one side of that business is denial of claims, but another side of that business is providers trying to get as much money out of insurance company as they can. In my family's experience, more than once we went "how did insurance company agree to pay for this, and pay so much". If insurance companies approved every claim, then the astronomical cost of health insurance would become even more astronomical. Sure, obviously you want to deny the bogus claims and approve the legitimate claims, but that's like saying that police needs to catch the bad guys and keep the good guys free. Easy to state as a principle, much harder to act on when it's your job.
The reality is, the system is utterly broken, and all the players in that systems are forced to play this macabre game. As a provider, you have to shoot for the moon, and as the insurance company, you have to push back. The fault lies with those who fight to maintain this clusterfuck. The only thing I can say for sure is, if you read an article that says that the company deployed an AI model with a 90% error rate, you should assume that whoever published that article has no interest in reporting anything resembling the truth.
Quote from: DGuller on December 11, 2024, 10:14:19 AMThe fault lies with those who fight to maintain this clusterfuck.
So insurance companies and their lobbyists? :unsure:
Yes. That's where my sympathy for the ceo would plummet. If it comes out he has been actively fighting to keep the broken system and clearly valuing continued profits over human suffering.
Which I have to say does sound a bit likely... But still, murder is a bit wrong innit.
DGuller's faith in AI is unshakable
Quote from: DGuller on December 11, 2024, 10:14:19 AMThis widespread approval of vigilante murder is really disturbing me. I'm not saying that health insurance industry is a nice one, or that UHC is the comparatively nice player in that nice industry, but reality is always a lot more complex.
Yes, one side of that business is denial of claims, but another side of that business is providers trying to get as much money out of insurance company as they can. In my family's experience, more than once we went "how did insurance company agree to pay for this, and pay so much". If insurance companies approved every claim, then the astronomical cost of health insurance would become even more astronomical. Sure, obviously you want to deny the bogus claims and approve the legitimate claims, but that's like saying that police needs to catch the bad guys and keep the good guys free. Easy to state as a principle, much harder to act on when it's your job.
The reality is, the system is utterly broken, and all the players in that systems are forced to play this macabre game. As a provider, you have to shoot for the moon, and as the insurance company, you have to push back. The fault lies with those who fight to maintain this clusterfuck. The only thing I can say for sure is, if you read an article that says that the company deployed an AI model with a 90% error rate, you should assume that whoever published that article has no interest in reporting anything resembling the truth.
I generally agree with what you're saying, assuming that providers and insurances are profit driven enterprises.
However, who are the actors who keep it alive in your statement? And what can the average (under-)insured schmoe do to improve their situation or affect changes of the system itself?
Quote from: Syt on December 11, 2024, 10:26:42 AMI generally agree with what you're saying, assuming that providers and insurances are profit driven enterprises.
However, who are the actors who keep it alive in your statement? And what can the average (under-)insured schmoe do to improve their situation or affect changes of the system itself?
Not voting for Trump would be a start.
Quote from: HVC on December 11, 2024, 10:17:04 AMQuote from: DGuller on December 11, 2024, 10:14:19 AMThe fault lies with those who fight to maintain this clusterfuck.
So insurance companies and their lobbyists? :unsure:
That part gets more nuanced, but I'd say that lobbying is part of the system. If you're a CEO of an insurance company, you're almost legally obligated to defend the interests of your company. Ultimately it's on politicians to define the system.
Quote from: Josquius on December 11, 2024, 10:34:12 AMQuote from: Syt on December 11, 2024, 10:26:42 AMI generally agree with what you're saying, assuming that providers and insurances are profit driven enterprises.
However, who are the actors who keep it alive in your statement? And what can the average (under-)insured schmoe do to improve their situation or affect changes of the system itself?
Not voting for Trump would be a start.
That's basically it. Ultimately it's down to voters who don't keep politicians accountable (to say the least). Ideas are out there, like the public option or Medicare for all, but it's the voters who make them unpalatable to act on. I'm sure Obama would've gone further than Obamacare if he felt the political mandate for it was there, but he barely pushed through what he did, because people where going on and on about death panels.
Quote from: Syt on December 11, 2024, 01:43:33 AMAnd a lot of lack of sympathy for the victim, which, given how his insurance handles business (and generally the insurance system in the US which causes people to die, bankrupt etc.) is not really surprising - at least from my admittedly outside perspective.
Their whole business model is figuring out how to fuck you over in your moment of pain. And it is done in the most unfair way possible. You get the treatment and then after the fact they decide how much they are going to cover. In most businesses people tell you the price and then you decide. But in health care here in the US it is gamble. Do you feel lucky?
My son fell off his scooter and fractured his wrist. Getting him care for this pretty routine childhood injury cost me about $2,000 with insurance. So I guess if you are poor just rub some dirt on it and tell junior to toughen up? Bullshit.
And this CEO in particular had introduced an AI system of denying claims and was under investigation for fraud so...as Clarence Darrow, not Mark Twain, once said "I've never wished a man dead, but I have read some obituaries with great pleasure."
Not that it really will change much institutionally, just one cog in the corporate death panel machine being murdered, but I am not going to cry about it too much. Especially in a country where school shootings are a regular occurrence.
Quote from: DGuller on December 11, 2024, 10:46:49 AMThat's basically it. Ultimately it's down to voters who don't keep politicians accountable (to say the least). Ideas are out there, like the public option or Medicare for all, but it's the voters who make them unpalatable to act on. I'm sure Obama would've gone further than Obamacare if he felt the political mandate for it was there, but he barely pushed through what he did, because people where going on and on about death panels.
Yeah we could do away with this whole corrupt system if we wanted to. Now we have corporate death panels who are financially incentivized to deny you life saving care.
And yet the killer was some kind of right wing guy and many conservatives are cheering on his actions. I don't get it. This is what you want right? Private health care?
And we will never have like a cheap shitty version of health care for the poors, like the dollar tree of health care. The liability risk is too high. So the idea that a free market version that functions can exist seems like a fantasy story to me.
One thing that is quite telling with this shooting is how much attention it is getting vs the hundreds of other murders per day. Really shines a light on the value of different lives.
Hundreds of Americans are murdered a week, so you need a hook to catch peoples attention. Sometimes it's pretty young blondes, sometimes it's scummy CEOs.
Quote from: Valmy on December 11, 2024, 11:08:10 AMQuote from: Syt on December 11, 2024, 01:43:33 AMAnd a lot of lack of sympathy for the victim, which, given how his insurance handles business (and generally the insurance system in the US which causes people to die, bankrupt etc.) is not really surprising - at least from my admittedly outside perspective.
... snip ....
My son fell off his scooter and fractured his wrist. Getting him care for this pretty routine childhood injury cost me about $2,000 with insurance. So I guess if you are poor just rub some dirt on it and tell junior to toughen up? Bullshit.
... snip...
That's crazy, as you say it's just a routine childhood injury, easy to treat and something parents less well of than you shouldn't have to worry about.
Agreed. I know several families who would have gone broke if stuff like that wasn't covered. Not saying there's no issues with our healthcare over here, but given the choice I know which one I'd pick.
Quote from: Syt on December 11, 2024, 12:55:32 PMAgreed. I know several families who would have gone broke if stuff like that wasn't covered. Not saying there's no issues with our healthcare over here, but given the choice I know which one I'd pick.
Yes, parents with kids, people with elderly relatives or caring for those with complex needs, certainly don't need that kind of additional BS in their situations.
edit:
And as Raz has attested further up in the thread, it can have devastating effects on the whole family.
Quote from: Valmy on December 11, 2024, 11:12:08 AMAnd we will never have like a cheap shitty version of health care for the poors, like the dollar tree of health care. The liability risk is too high. So the idea that a free market version that functions can exist seems like a fantasy story to me.
I heard a person who has studied Obamacare interviewed recently, amongst the interesting points she made was that Obamacare was supposed to create an affordable insurance option for the people who don't quality for the existing medical programs for the poor and how don't get the gold plated health care insurance through their employers.
In her view the intention was good but the implementation was terrible. It apparently did not include the kinds of guardrails that would prevent insurance company shenanigans. It better than having nothing (especially for folks with pre-existing conditions) who would be otherwise uninsurable. But it is not the best option.
Single payer health systems, for all their problems, at least have the benefit of not bankrupting the people who are being treated.
Quote from: mongers on December 11, 2024, 01:03:15 PMQuote from: Syt on December 11, 2024, 12:55:32 PMAgreed. I know several families who would have gone broke if stuff like that wasn't covered. Not saying there's no issues with our healthcare over here, but given the choice I know which one I'd pick.
Yes, parents with kids, people with elderly relatives or caring for those with complex needs, certainly don't need that kind of additional BS in their situations.
edit:
And as Raz has attested further up in the thread, it can have devastating effects on the whole family.
Valmy's story made me think of when I was a kid. I think I broke or fractured some bone in my body every year for several years in a row. My parent's would have had to sell me for medical experiments if we were Americans. :D
Which makes me wonder, is there some kind of special health coverage for student athletes and their sports related injuries?
Quote from: Josquius on December 11, 2024, 12:18:20 PMOne thing that is quite telling with this shooting is how much attention it is getting vs the hundreds of other murders per day. Really shines a light on the value of different lives.
It was infuriating when this crook got so much attention by the mayor of New York and the NYPD. And then some McDonald's employee found him anyway despite all the public money being mobilized.
How about expending this kind of effort on innocent people getting murdered? Not some asshole under investigation for fraud?
Quote from: crazy canuck on December 11, 2024, 01:18:15 PMQuote from: mongers on December 11, 2024, 01:03:15 PMQuote from: Syt on December 11, 2024, 12:55:32 PMAgreed. I know several families who would have gone broke if stuff like that wasn't covered. Not saying there's no issues with our healthcare over here, but given the choice I know which one I'd pick.
Yes, parents with kids, people with elderly relatives or caring for those with complex needs, certainly don't need that kind of additional BS in their situations.
edit:
And as Raz has attested further up in the thread, it can have devastating effects on the whole family.
Valmy's story made me think of when I was a kid. I think I broke or fractured some bone in my body every year for several years in a row. My parent's would have had to sell me for medical experiments if we were Americans. :D
Which makes me wonder, is there some kind of special health coverage for student athletes and their sports related injuries?
Well there is a certain out of pocket amount I have to pay every year before the insurance starts covering most of the costs so I think if Henry just kept breaking bones eventually it wouldn't cost as much.
I presume the school has insurance which covers student athlete related injuries, otherwise they would be in court constantly from being sued.
Quote from: Valmy on December 11, 2024, 02:18:11 PMQuote from: Josquius on December 11, 2024, 12:18:20 PMOne thing that is quite telling with this shooting is how much attention it is getting vs the hundreds of other murders per day. Really shines a light on the value of different lives.
It was infuriating when this crook got so much attention by the mayor of New York and the NYPD. And then some McDonald's employee found him.
How about expending this kind of effort on innocent people getting murdered? Not some asshole under investigation for fraud?
Some people are
more equal richer than others.
Still, with all the horror stories about medical insurance in the U.S., I'm surprised that insurance companies aren't shot up/bombed more often. :P
Quote from: Syt on December 11, 2024, 02:21:54 PMSome people are more equal richer than others.
Still, with all the horror stories about medical insurance in the U.S., I'm surprised that insurance companies aren't shot up/bombed more often. :P
Thus far the media have managed to direct people's anger towards the opposing political parties. But one thing we are definitely seeing is right wing men starting to just target anybody they can blame. So we had two of them go after Trump and now we have this dude shooting the United CEO instead of shooting up schools, minorities, and left wing protestors. So I guess Marx would say they are starting to become class conscious or something.
I do not know why the left doesn't seem to do these sorts of things outside of mob violence during protests gone nasty. So far we don't have antifa assassins gunning down CEOs and politicians.
But hey we might be headed that way. Really ever since the Cold War ended the people in the United States have been fed up and want country to change. But nothing really seems to.
Well, politicians need the public to get elected, but they also need increasingly deep pockets to even compete in the political arena in the first place. And they're incentivized to keep their donors happy due to it (see threats of funding primaries against "disloyal" politicians). Money isn't everything you need to get elected (see Dr Oz, Bloomberg), but not having it is a major disadvantage.
Quote from: Valmy on December 11, 2024, 02:29:32 PMI do not know why the left doesn't seem to do these sorts of things outside of mob violence during protests gone nasty. So far we don't have antifa assassins gunning down CEOs and politicians.
A number years ago Oex took the time to explain to me the difference between right wing and left wing populism. Reading your observation made me think about that.
I could not give his description justice, so I won't try. But maybe he will chime in on this point.
Quote from: Valmy on December 11, 2024, 02:29:32 PMReally ever since the Cold War ended the people in the United States have been fed up and want country to change. But nothing really seems to.
I wanted to address this as a separate point. I think you are dating the urge for change too early. The early 90s were a kind of golden age. Everything seemed possible now that the Cold War was over. We had won and the world was going be become a Liberal Democratic paradise. It was the end of history.
It didn't take long for that dream to turn into a nightmare, but I would date it to a decade later.
Quote from: crazy canuck on December 11, 2024, 03:47:35 PMQuote from: Valmy on December 11, 2024, 02:29:32 PMReally ever since the Cold War ended the people in the United States have been fed up and want country to change. But nothing really seems to.
I wanted to address this as a separate point. I think you are dating the urge for change too early. The early 90s were a kind of golden age. Everything seemed possible now that the Cold War was over. We had won and the world was going be become a Liberal Democratic paradise. It was the end of history.
It didn't take long for that dream to turn into a nightmare, but I would date it to a decade later.
There was a lot of frustration that the end of the Cold War didn't mean the end of American international adventures and big deficits and all that. Hence why Ross Perot happened in 1992 and 1996. I do agree that that round of unhappiness and unrest died down by the late 1990s and it seemed like things might work out and then everybody rallied to the flag after 9/11 but by 2003 all that was gone.
It just seems like the whole damn world now is on fire and in decline. I keep thinking things are really bad here but then I look around the world and think "holy shit, maybe we have it good?"
I agree. One of the things that got worse over time, and at an accelerating pace, was wealth inequality. To your point about class consciousness, I think we are seeing the effects of the destruction of what had been a comfortable middle class life.
Quote from: Valmy on December 11, 2024, 02:29:32 PMThus far the media have managed to direct people's anger towards the opposing political parties. But one thing we are definitely seeing is right wing men starting to just target anybody they can blame. So we had two of them go after Trump and now we have this dude shooting the United CEO instead of shooting up schools, minorities, and left wing protestors. So I guess Marx would say they are starting to become class conscious or something.
I don't think it that would be class consciousness - the key to class consciousness is exactly that it is about class. It is about common shared interests and opponents. It's nothing to do with the hyper-individualist lone wolf gunman/terrorist.
It might play some role in anarchism and propaganda of the deed but I'm not sure that's at play in any of these cases.
Sadly I think class consciousness is still declining (in part slowing growth probably hurts here) and still more atomised, zero sum views.
QuoteI do not know why the left doesn't seem to do these sorts of things outside of mob violence during protests gone nasty. So far we don't have antifa assassins gunning down CEOs and politicians.
There's periods of that type of violence - anarchists in the late 19th century, nihilists in Tsarist Russia, the years of lead in Europe. The more I've read about this the more it feels not a million miles from the sort of action by nihilists.
FWIW and for all the talk of the 30s, I find myself thinking there's a lot of echoes of the 1890s (which sort of makes sense Gilded Age economic outcomes producing Gilded Age political trends? :hmm:) - which isn't necessarily much more reassuring.
QuoteBut hey we might be headed that way. Really ever since the Cold War ended the people in the United States have been fed up and want country to change. But nothing really seems to.
I think there's something to Timothy Shenk's argument that in effect the traditional re-alignments every thirty years or so in American politics sort of stopped in the 60s. Neither side was able to win as completely as previous re-alignments/moments of parties building durable legislative and executive majorities have. So politics has become more heated and polarised precisely as (and because) it's become less able to resolve.
Not sure I'm fully sold as basically every developed democracy has a similar story of the traditional part of the left being taken over by educated, higher income, more urban and suburban voters and losing their traditional vote. There's variations and specific factors in each country but I think there's a structural shift going on (and I've got some ideas but I'm not really sure what structural shift is or what's causing it). I think one side effect is that it does often make those parties small-c conservative which is not a great place to be when, as you say, people want (and are voting for) change.
Yeah, get the feeling humanity is on a doom loop, and I can't see how we can get out of it. In some respects the Cold War was still worse but at least then we all knew the dangers and the Damoclean knife of nuclear MAD kept everyone's minds in focus and there at least felt there was something to hope / live for.
The rich have succeeded on taking complete control of the west. They do not fear anymore.
Quote from: Grey Fox on December 11, 2024, 04:27:59 PMThe rich have succeeded on taking complete control of the west. They do not fear anymore.
Is there a time when they didn't have complete control? Stone Age?
This might be the gloomiest strand of conversation in the off topic thread.
Quote from: HVC on December 11, 2024, 04:32:29 PMIs there a time when they didn't have complete control? Stone Age?
Parts of the twentieth century - wealth destroyed in two world wars and constrained in democratic societies by mass political mobilisation.
Quote from: Valmy on December 11, 2024, 02:29:32 PMI do not know why the left doesn't seem to do these sorts of things outside of mob violence during protests gone nasty. So far we don't have antifa assassins gunning down CEOs and politicians.
The leftwing of course did do this (and probably still does/will do that again). Most of us are, after all, old enough to at least have heard of the various far left terrorist groups targeting businessmen and politicians during the latter half of last century (RAF, CCC, Brigate Rosse, 17N, AD, GRAPO, etc etc)... And that's just Europe.
Quote from: Grey Fox on December 11, 2024, 04:27:59 PMThe rich have succeeded on taking complete control of the west. They do not fear anymore.
On the other hand: we're seen over the past few weeks that control can slip away very fast too.
Quote from: HVC on December 11, 2024, 04:32:29 PMQuote from: Grey Fox on December 11, 2024, 04:27:59 PMThe rich have succeeded on taking complete control of the west. They do not fear anymore.
Is there a time when they didn't have complete control? Stone Age?
Like Sheilbh mentioned, the post war era until the petrol crisis.
I think it's an interesting conversation to split off into its own thread, so that it won't die here. It's the kind of thread that may be bumped again and again going forward.
Quote from: Grey Fox on December 11, 2024, 04:54:50 PMQuote from: HVC on December 11, 2024, 04:32:29 PMQuote from: Grey Fox on December 11, 2024, 04:27:59 PMThe rich have succeeded on taking complete control of the west. They do not fear anymore.
Is there a time when they didn't have complete control? Stone Age?
Like Sheilbh mentioned, the post war era until the petrol crisis.
If you guys say so. That's not my understanding, but since I wasn't alive then I can't really say. My understanding is that the middle class flourished, but that the rich were around and still very much in charge.
In charge and complete control is not the same thing.
1963s top income tax bracket in the USA was 91%. Today is, iirc, in the lower 30s. Poise to be eliminated in the next years.
30% is just for the honest ones. There are plenty of ways to pay less. Blame lawyers. They're the actual bad guys :P
I'm reading a book on the elites in this country, and their ideology. Talking about the top 1% is a bit of an obfuscation. They are elites, but not the only ones. In fact, a lot of them on are on this board as we speak...
Quote from: Valmy on December 11, 2024, 02:29:32 PMQuote from: Syt on December 11, 2024, 02:21:54 PMSome people are more equal richer than others.
Still, with all the horror stories about medical insurance in the U.S., I'm surprised that insurance companies aren't shot up/bombed more often. :P
Thus far the media have managed to direct people's anger towards the opposing political parties. But one thing we are definitely seeing is right wing men starting to just target anybody they can blame. So we had two of them go after Trump and now we have this dude shooting the United CEO instead of shooting up schools, minorities, and left wing protestors. So I guess Marx would say they are starting to become class conscious or something.
I do not know why the left doesn't seem to do these sorts of things outside of mob violence during protests gone nasty. So far we don't have antifa assassins gunning down CEOs and politicians.
But hey we might be headed that way. Really ever since the Cold War ended the people in the United States have been fed up and want country to change. But nothing really seems to.
The American left is generally way more interested in pointless slap fighting and purity testing.
Quote from: Razgovory on December 11, 2024, 08:58:01 PMI'm reading a book on the elites in this country, and their ideology. Talking about the top 1% is a bit of an obfuscation. They are elites, but not the only ones. In fact, a lot of them on are on this board as we speak...
I am pretty sure a lot of of the American one percent is not on this board as we speak
Quote from: crazy canuck on December 11, 2024, 11:18:26 PMQuote from: Razgovory on December 11, 2024, 08:58:01 PMI'm reading a book on the elites in this country, and their ideology. Talking about the top 1% is a bit of an obfuscation. They are elites, but not the only ones. In fact, a lot of them on are on this board as we speak...
I am pretty sure a lot of of the American one percent is not on this board as we speak
What about the top quintile?
On a global scale, I think pretty much all of us might be in the top 1% of the world's population, wealth wise.
Quote from: Syt on December 12, 2024, 01:54:40 AMOn a global scale, I think pretty much all of us might be in the top 1% of the world's population, wealth wise.
I'm not sure there, that's 80,000,000 people. A lot but still just a fraction of the west.
Also depends how you count it really. In terms of raw numbers a cleaner in Norway might be richer than a middle class person in Kenya, but in terms of general experience, quality of life, etc...?
Quote from: Syt on December 12, 2024, 01:54:40 AMOn a global scale, I think pretty much all of us might be in the top 1% of the world's population, wealth wise.
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/11/01/how-much-money-you-need-to-be-part-of-the-1-percent-worldwide.html
Fair enough. But we'll still be near the top. :P
Quote from: Razgovory on December 12, 2024, 12:51:42 AMQuote from: crazy canuck on December 11, 2024, 11:18:26 PMQuote from: Razgovory on December 11, 2024, 08:58:01 PMI'm reading a book on the elites in this country, and their ideology. Talking about the top 1% is a bit of an obfuscation. They are elites, but not the only ones. In fact, a lot of them on are on this board as we speak...
I am pretty sure a lot of of the American one percent is not on this board as we speak
What about the top quintile?
How many Americans on this board do you think are in the top quintile?
You made the claim that a lot of the American elite are on this board? My comment was more of a joke, but come on, if you want to take it seriously not a lot of American elites are here. There just isn't a lot of Americans here compared to the population of the United States. There isn't a lot of people here in general. :P
Here's what looks to be recent US census data on household income:
Lowest Quintile 16345
Second Quintile 46381
Third Quintile 78202
Fourth Quintile 123006
Highest Quintile 281866
Top 5 Percent 506793
https://data.census.gov/table/ACSDT1Y2023.B19081?q=income%20quintile&y=2023
Well mean.
Maybe upper limit makes more sense?
Lowest Quintile 31942
Second Quintile 61190
Third Quintile 97458
Fourth Quintile 155515
Lower Limit of Top 5 Percent 250,000+
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/11/07/how-much-money-you-need-to-be-in-the-richest-10-percent-worldwide.html
QuoteTo be among the global top 10 percent, you may not need as much money as you think. According to the 2018 Global Wealth Report from Credit Suisse Research Institute, you don't even need six figures.
A net worth of $93,170 U.S. is enough to make you richer than 90 percent of people around the world, Credit Suisse reports. The institute defines net worth, or "wealth," as "the value of financial assets plus real assets (principally housing) owned by households, minus their debts."
More than 102 million people in America are in the 10 percent worldwide, Credit Suisse reports, far more than from any other country.
You need significantly less to be among the global 50 percent: If you have just $4,210 to your name, you're still richer than half of the world's residents. And it takes a net worth of $871,320 to join the global 1 percent. More than 19 million Americans qualify, Credit Suisse reports.
These numbers reflect the extreme level of persistent wealth inequality. As Credit Suisse puts it, "While the bottom half of adults collectively owns less than 1 percent of total wealth, the richest decile (top 10 percent of adults) owns 85 percent of global wealth, and the top percentile alone accounts for almost half of all household wealth (47 percent)."
Pre-pandemic, obvs.
Quote from: crazy canuck on December 12, 2024, 07:22:04 AMQuote from: Razgovory on December 12, 2024, 12:51:42 AMQuote from: crazy canuck on December 11, 2024, 11:18:26 PMQuote from: Razgovory on December 11, 2024, 08:58:01 PMI'm reading a book on the elites in this country, and their ideology. Talking about the top 1% is a bit of an obfuscation. They are elites, but not the only ones. In fact, a lot of them on are on this board as we speak...
I am pretty sure a lot of of the American one percent is not on this board as we speak
What about the top quintile?
How many Americans on this board do you think are in the top quintile?
You made the claim that a lot of the American elite are on this board? My comment was more of a joke, but come on, if you want to take it seriously not a lot of American elites are here. There just isn't a lot of Americans here compared to the population of the United States. There isn't a lot of people here in general. :P
No, I meant that a lot of the board falls into the elite category.
Our demographics are more lawyer heavy than the general population yes.
Quote from: Razgovory on December 12, 2024, 08:59:39 AMQuote from: crazy canuck on December 12, 2024, 07:22:04 AMQuote from: Razgovory on December 12, 2024, 12:51:42 AMQuote from: crazy canuck on December 11, 2024, 11:18:26 PMQuote from: Razgovory on December 11, 2024, 08:58:01 PMI'm reading a book on the elites in this country, and their ideology. Talking about the top 1% is a bit of an obfuscation. They are elites, but not the only ones. In fact, a lot of them on are on this board as we speak...
I am pretty sure a lot of of the American one percent is not on this board as we speak
What about the top quintile?
How many Americans on this board do you think are in the top quintile?
You made the claim that a lot of the American elite are on this board? My comment was more of a joke, but come on, if you want to take it seriously not a lot of American elites are here. There just isn't a lot of Americans here compared to the population of the United States. There isn't a lot of people here in general. :P
No, I meant that a lot of the board falls into the elite category.
My apologies
Quote from: Syt on December 12, 2024, 07:42:25 AMhttps://www.cnbc.com/2018/11/07/how-much-money-you-need-to-be-in-the-richest-10-percent-worldwide.html
QuoteTo be among the global top 10 percent, you may not need as much money as you think. According to the 2018 Global Wealth Report from Credit Suisse Research Institute, you don't even need six figures.
A net worth of $93,170 U.S. is enough to make you richer than 90 percent of people around the world, Credit Suisse reports. The institute defines net worth, or "wealth," as "the value of financial assets plus real assets (principally housing) owned by households, minus their debts."
More than 102 million people in America are in the 10 percent worldwide, Credit Suisse reports, far more than from any other country.
You need significantly less to be among the global 50 percent: If you have just $4,210 to your name, you're still richer than half of the world's residents. And it takes a net worth of $871,320 to join the global 1 percent. More than 19 million Americans qualify, Credit Suisse reports.
These numbers reflect the extreme level of persistent wealth inequality. As Credit Suisse puts it, "While the bottom half of adults collectively owns less than 1 percent of total wealth, the richest decile (top 10 percent of adults) owns 85 percent of global wealth, and the top percentile alone accounts for almost half of all household wealth (47 percent)."
Pre-pandemic, obvs.
Net worth isn't really a very good indicator of wealth ironically.
The reason for that is a lot of people have an inflated net worth simply because the house they bought has increased significantly in value. But many of those same people are still struggling financially to pay their mortgage and the cost of living.
Measuring wealth is your keeping to do because the truly wealthy don't actually have an income that can be taxable. Rather, they live basically tax-free by sophisticated instruments averaged against their shareholdings.
Quote from: Josquius on December 12, 2024, 10:02:48 AMOur demographics are more lawyer heavy than the general population yes.
Not really, the vast majority of the people who are here are not lawyers.
Quote from: crazy canuck on December 12, 2024, 10:16:15 AMNot really, the vast majority of the people who are here are not lawyers.
But an even vaster majority of the general population are not lawyers :P
Quote from: crazy canuck on December 12, 2024, 10:11:47 AMQuote from: Razgovory on December 12, 2024, 08:59:39 AMQuote from: crazy canuck on December 12, 2024, 07:22:04 AMQuote from: Razgovory on December 12, 2024, 12:51:42 AMQuote from: crazy canuck on December 11, 2024, 11:18:26 PMQuote from: Razgovory on December 11, 2024, 08:58:01 PMI'm reading a book on the elites in this country, and their ideology. Talking about the top 1% is a bit of an obfuscation. They are elites, but not the only ones. In fact, a lot of them on are on this board as we speak...
I am pretty sure a lot of of the American one percent is not on this board as we speak
What about the top quintile?
How many Americans on this board do you think are in the top quintile?
You made the claim that a lot of the American elite are on this board? My comment was more of a joke, but come on, if you want to take it seriously not a lot of American elites are here. There just isn't a lot of Americans here compared to the population of the United States. There isn't a lot of people here in general. :P
No, I meant that a lot of the board falls into the elite category.
My apologies
No prob. I still love you.
Quote from: crazy canuck on December 12, 2024, 10:16:15 AMQuote from: Josquius on December 12, 2024, 10:02:48 AMOur demographics are more lawyer heavy than the general population yes.
Not really, the vast majority of the people who are here are not lawyers.
Out of the regular posters left, we have like 3 lawyers and 3 non-lawyers. :P
So, now this killer is something of eye candy for women, it seems.
"I can change him". :rolleyes:
The number of reasons for just staying a single, bitter old man are just piling up.
First rule of political change in a better direction: Don't shoot people.
Quote from: Norgy on December 12, 2024, 12:02:09 PMSo, now this killer is something of eye candy for women, it seems.
"I can change him". :rolleyes:
The number of reasons for just staying a single, bitter old man are just piling up.
First rule of political change in a better direction: Don't shoot people.
I think you are making the mistake I've seen guardian writers making on this topic, reading too much into meme posts about the killer.
Quote from: Tamas on December 12, 2024, 11:10:13 AMQuote from: crazy canuck on December 12, 2024, 10:16:15 AMQuote from: Josquius on December 12, 2024, 10:02:48 AMOur demographics are more lawyer heavy than the general population yes.
Not really, the vast majority of the people who are here are not lawyers.
Out of the regular posters left, we have like 3 lawyers and 3 non-lawyers. :P
:D
Quote from: garbon on December 12, 2024, 12:18:23 PMQuote from: Norgy on December 12, 2024, 12:02:09 PMSo, now this killer is something of eye candy for women, it seems.
"I can change him". :rolleyes:
The number of reasons for just staying a single, bitter old man are just piling up.
First rule of political change in a better direction: Don't shoot people.
I think you are making the mistake I've seen guardian writers making on this topic, reading too much into meme posts about the killer.
I am hardly a great authority on pop culture, so you are probably right.
And The Guardian is, well, The Guardian still, for better or worse.
I think I learned at some impromptu course at work that they have more people working on content marketing than actual journalists these days. Which sums up my line of work well.
Still, the killer has killer abs.
Quote from: Razgovory on December 11, 2024, 08:58:01 PMI'm reading a book on the elites in this country, and their ideology. Talking about the top 1% is a bit of an obfuscation. They are elites, but not the only ones. In fact, a lot of them on are on this board as we speak...
I don't think you just need some money to be an elite. It requires access to institutional power. That may or may not be people on this board, but just owning a house in an expensive place doesn't make you a national level elite.
Quote from: Norgy on December 12, 2024, 12:02:09 PMSo, now this killer is something of eye candy for women, it seems.
"I can change him". :rolleyes:
The number of reasons for just staying a single, bitter old man are just piling up.
First rule of political change in a better direction: Don't shoot people.
Ok first plenty of men have also thirsted for this guy.
Secondly these are Americans, we think shooting people is cool.
I don't think this applies to Norwegian women.
Quote from: Valmy on December 12, 2024, 12:48:20 PMI don't think this applies to Norwegian women.
If it wasn't for the clause in Norwegian criminal law that the state can deny letters and phones to inmates, I am pretty sure the Utøya massacre bloke Breivik would get a lot of attention from Norwegian women.
But now I am just being a misogynist. And I shouldn't be.
I've seen this, what can I say, rather short manifesto of this killer quoted. Not a great writer.
There definitely is a subset of women really into the whole true crime thing and very bad boys in prison.
Far from all women but a notable enough number to regard it as a real phenomena.
ok, I need a translation. Does thirsty mean that people like his looks?
Here it means you're an alcoholic.
Quote from: Valmy on December 12, 2024, 12:45:15 PMI don't think you just need some money to be an elite. It requires access to institutional power. That may or may not be people on this board, but just owning a house in an expensive place doesn't make you a national level elite.
I think its a bit of the other way around, one can have access to institutional power without being wealthy.
Judging from the personal stories of people here over the years, Raz is correct in saying there have been a disproportionate number of folks who would fit that description.
Quote from: crazy canuck on December 12, 2024, 01:03:43 PMok, I need a translation. Does thirsty mean that people like his looks?
Like a tall drink of water.
Quote from: garbon on December 12, 2024, 01:33:59 PMQuote from: crazy canuck on December 12, 2024, 01:03:43 PMok, I need a translation. Does thirsty mean that people like his looks?
Like a tall drink of water.
Ah, many thanks
Quote from: Valmy on December 12, 2024, 12:45:15 PMQuote from: Razgovory on December 11, 2024, 08:58:01 PMI'm reading a book on the elites in this country, and their ideology. Talking about the top 1% is a bit of an obfuscation. They are elites, but not the only ones. In fact, a lot of them on are on this board as we speak...
I don't think you just need some money to be an elite. It requires access to institutional power. That may or may not be people on this board, but just owning a house in an expensive place doesn't make you a national level elite.
When I finish the book I'll create a thread on this, but in short people in the knowledge economy, the professional-managerial class, or the creative class are elites. They aren't the only ones of course, but they are elites. I'm beginning to suspect that when Trump supporters talk about fighting the "elites", this is who they are talking about. They may never meet a billionaire, but they do come into contact with lawyers, doctors, programmers, engineers, etc.
Quote from: Josquius on December 12, 2024, 12:59:18 PMThere definitely is a subset of women really into the whole true crime thing and very bad boys in prison.
Far from all women but a notable enough number to regard it as a real phenomena.
I mean we don't need to overanalyse this - he's also just good looking :lol:
Every time I see this story on TV, "Feels So Good" pops into my head. It's becoming annoying I'm not a fan of the song.
Quote from: Razgovory on December 12, 2024, 02:05:04 PMQuote from: Valmy on December 12, 2024, 12:45:15 PMQuote from: Razgovory on December 11, 2024, 08:58:01 PMI'm reading a book on the elites in this country, and their ideology. Talking about the top 1% is a bit of an obfuscation. They are elites, but not the only ones. In fact, a lot of them on are on this board as we speak...
I don't think you just need some money to be an elite. It requires access to institutional power. That may or may not be people on this board, but just owning a house in an expensive place doesn't make you a national level elite.
When I finish the book I'll create a thread on this, but in short people in the knowledge economy, the professional-managerial class, or the creative class are elites.
It would be lovely if it were true. But no.
QuoteThey aren't the only ones of course, but they are elites. I'm beginning to suspect that when Trump supporters talk about fighting the "elites", this is who they are talking about. They may never meet a billionaire, but they do come into contact with lawyers, doctors, programmers, engineers, etc.
I would say its key to populist right wing bollocks that many working class people DON'T meet people in these good but attainable jobs.
If you want to get work in those areas you usually have to move to a select few big cities - places where the working class is also less likely to fall for trump nonsense
Quote from: Josquius on December 12, 2024, 02:56:07 PMI would say its key to populist right wing bollocks that many working class people DON'T meet people in these good but attainable jobs.
If you want to get work in those areas you usually have to move to a select few big cities - places where the working class is also less likely to fall for trump nonsense
I know anecdotes are not the same as data, but my brother, my in-laws, the guys I play hockey with (except for the guy I recruited from work) - I don't think any of them have university degrees, never mind law degrees.
Maybe it's just a Canada thing, but I don't think the world is that segregated.
Quote from: Barrister on December 12, 2024, 03:05:15 PMQuote from: Josquius on December 12, 2024, 02:56:07 PMI would say its key to populist right wing bollocks that many working class people DON'T meet people in these good but attainable jobs.
If you want to get work in those areas you usually have to move to a select few big cities - places where the working class is also less likely to fall for trump nonsense
I know anecdotes are not the same as data, but my brother, my in-laws, the guys I play hockey with (except for the guy I recruited from work) - I don't think any of them have university degrees, never mind law degrees.
Maybe it's just a Canada thing, but I don't think the world is that segregated.
If you're the only one with a degree in your peer group maybe you're just slumming it :P
While not as segregated as super rich and poor, I do still see some segregation. I mean how many barristas or day laborers do you hang out with?
I think when people think of elites, they think of people that make them feel inferior, a lower class of people. That's why an average Joe may regard a humanities professor lecturing them on pronouns as an elite, but not a billionaire validating all their ugly thoughts. That may be the case even though the humanities professor had ramen noodles for dinner while the billionaire had a well-done steak with A1 sauce.
You don't have to go to New York to meet members of the "creative class".
Quote from: DGuller on December 12, 2024, 03:12:10 PMthe billionaire had a well-done steak with A1 sauce.
He must be purged :yuk:
Quote from: Razgovory on December 12, 2024, 02:05:04 PMWhen I finish the book I'll create a thread on this, but in short people in the knowledge economy, the professional-managerial class, or the creative class are elites. They aren't the only ones of course, but they are elites. I'm beginning to suspect that when Trump supporters talk about fighting the "elites", this is who they are talking about. They may never meet a billionaire, but they do come into contact with lawyers, doctors, programmers, engineers, etc.
That sounds like Ehrenreich.
I think there's two levels and I think that's absolutely part of it. I think it also ties into "woke"/"identity politics", because I think that was a conscious decision by more centrist Democrats to lean into that as a way to outflank a more populist left challenge - one heartily picked up by corporates (because it's relatively cheap). I think that has helped undermine both those causes and the Democrats that the cause and politics becomes intermingled with sort of middle management we all deal with in our day to day lives and emails from corporate bosses about social justice. I could be wrong but I also think that plays into a perception of corruption around the Democrats.
The other level though is that I think there's also been a cultural and an economic elite which don't always overlap. They've not always overlapped (though as I say above in recent years the latter have been stealing the rhetoric of the former).
Framing it so the elite just means billionaires, or wealth, or even titles is, I think, just being wilfully obtuse at this point.
QuoteMaybe it's just a Canada thing, but I don't think the world is that segregated.
I agree and I would add that the discourse on this is particularly extreme in Britain where it's seen as a huge failure of regional inequality that someone might have to travel twenty miles from Wigan to Manchester for work. This then results in very thinly spread jam of government spending so everyone gets a cut which increases regional inequality more severely.
QuoteI agree and I would add that the discourse on this is particularly extreme in Britain where it's seen as a huge failure of regional inequality that someone might have to travel twenty miles from Wigan to Manchester for work. This then results in very thinly spread jam of government spending so everyone gets a cut which increases regional inequality more severely.
It's not the having to travel 20 miles which is the issue.
It's the infrequent unreliable slow and shit busses that are the only way to get there which means a city 20 miles away can be almost
another planet to a kid growing up in a small town.
Then there's the morans I stuff which means often within the same town the world's can be seperate.
I think you originally shared this?
https://www.ons.gov.uk/visualisations/dvc1371/#/E07000223
Quote from: Razgovory on December 12, 2024, 03:12:24 PMYou don't have to go to New York to meet members of the "creative class".
Not necessarily NYC. I know there's a fair number in other major cities too.
But I'd be surprised if there's many of them to be found in random rust belt towns.
Quote from: Josquius on December 12, 2024, 03:43:48 PMNot necessarily NYC. I know there's a fair number in other major cities too.
But I'd be surprised if there's many of them to be found in random rust belt towns.
Seriously? There are plenty of lawyers and doctors and other professionals in small towns across the US.
I'd say public transport not buses. We have a lot of buses compared to other similar European countries (and a lot of bus stops which is part of why they're slow) - what few cities have but is standard elsewhere is an integrated local public transport network.
Interesting that's your conclusion from that map because mine was literally the opposite :lol:
Quote from: Razgovory on December 12, 2024, 03:55:59 PMQuote from: Josquius on December 12, 2024, 03:43:48 PMNot necessarily NYC. I know there's a fair number in other major cities too.
But I'd be surprised if there's many of them to be found in random rust belt towns.
Seriously? There are plenty of lawyers and doctors and other professionals in small towns across the US.
Doctors and lawyers I expect so.
But creatives? Programmers? Myriad other professional jobs?
Doctors, lawyers, teachers, accountants, various management folks... These are quite unique professions and by their service based nature not mass employment.
You've got these "obvious" professional jobs with a clear path in front of you. But the more abstract high end white collar stuff is quite locked away in the cities.
Do to the nature of the work there are probably more rural programmers then there are doctors and lawyers. That actually might go for most creative that don't need to be in the "scene" like writers.
QuoteI'd say public transport not buses. We have a lot of buses compared to other similar European countries (and a lot of bus stops which is part of why they're slow) - what few cities have but is standard elsewhere is an integrated local public transport network.
I say bus as its what I had and empathises the shit.
Certainly though our local trains tend not to do their job.
QuoteInteresting that's your conclusion from that map because mine was literally the opposite :lol:
Maybe depends what cities youre looking at?
Quote from: HVC on December 12, 2024, 04:22:50 PMDo to the nature of the work there are probably more rural programmers then there are doctors and lawyers. That actually might go for most creative that don't need to be in the "scene" like writers.
Post covid things shifted certainly (though shifting back again somewhat).
But still it's generally the case if you want to work in tech or write you move to the major cities.
But surely it's been the case for most of human history that if you want to work in the cutting edge you have to go to the major cities - and I can't see that it'll ever change. Cities are the engines of change (precisely, in part, because they have lots of people moving in and out).
Good work by the mod or whoever split this off from the other thread.
Man, how weird is the UK outside London.
Quote from: Josquius on December 12, 2024, 04:14:51 PMQuote from: Razgovory on December 12, 2024, 03:55:59 PMQuote from: Josquius on December 12, 2024, 03:43:48 PMNot necessarily NYC. I know there's a fair number in other major cities too.
But I'd be surprised if there's many of them to be found in random rust belt towns.
Seriously? There are plenty of lawyers and doctors and other professionals in small towns across the US.
Doctors and lawyers I expect so.
But creatives? Programmers? Myriad other professional jobs?
Doctors, lawyers, teachers, accountants, various management folks... These are quite unique professions and by their service based nature not mass employment.
You've got these "obvious" professional jobs with a clear path in front of you. But the more abstract high end white collar stuff is quite locked away in the cities.
My dad was a programmer. We lived in a town of about 40k. It's not that unusual. Maybe Britain is different.
Quote from: Norgy on December 12, 2024, 12:41:05 PMQuote from: garbon on December 12, 2024, 12:18:23 PMQuote from: Norgy on December 12, 2024, 12:02:09 PMSo, now this killer is something of eye candy for women, it seems.
"I can change him". :rolleyes:
The number of reasons for just staying a single, bitter old man are just piling up.
First rule of political change in a better direction: Don't shoot people.
I think you are making the mistake I've seen guardian writers making on this topic, reading too much into meme posts about the killer.
I am hardly a great authority on pop culture, so you are probably right.
And The Guardian is, well, The Guardian still, for better or worse.
I think I learned at some impromptu course at work that they have more people working on content marketing than actual journalists these days. Which sums up my line of work well.
Still, the killer has killer abs.
Quote from: Norgy on December 12, 2024, 12:02:09 PMSo, now this killer is something of eye candy for women, it seems.
"I can change him". :rolleyes:
The number of reasons for just staying a single, bitter old man are just piling up.
First rule of political change in a better direction: Don't shoot people.
No worse than one of our Languish election polls. :P
Agreed. :lol:
Isn't it a common phenomenon that some folks are drawn to "dangerous boys" or "dangerous girls"? Plenty stories of murderers in jail getting "fan mail" or getting hitched with a fan.
Here's Charles Manson and his then 26-year-old wife in 2014:
(https://i.imgur.com/fztXO4n.jpeg)
Don't think Fritzl's getting much fan mail anymore. Well. That he can read and remember at least.
Quote from: Syt on December 13, 2024, 08:09:06 AMIsn't it a common phenomenon that some folks are drawn to "dangerous boys" or "dangerous girls"? Plenty stories of murderers in jail getting "fan mail" or getting hitched with a fan.
Here's Charles Manson and his then 26-year-old wife in 2014:
(https://i.imgur.com/fztXO4n.jpeg)
How are you defining common?
Maybe better to phrase it: "oft reported" though maybe not overly common.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/dec/13/florida-woman-health-insurance-threat
QuoteA Florida woman has been arrested and charged after allegedly using the same language associated with the suspect in the murder of a top health insurance executive while on a phone call with her healthcare firm.
Briana Boston, 42, had just had a medical claim denied and was talking on a phone call with a representative from Blue Cross Blue Shield. The Lakeland resident then allegedly said: "Delay, deny, depose. You people are next."
The healthcare revolution is starting!
Mangione moved to New York today and was then escorted, publicly, with a huge team of people in various sorts of uniform holding all sorts of guns - and even the mayor was there:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GfLz7OvasAAUdot?format=jpg&name=900x900)
It feels like everyone almost deliberately performing a scene in a film (not to get all Baudrillard but did America make Hollywood or vice versa) in ways that I'm not sure is necessarily sending the message it's intended to.
If you're concerned about sympathy for this guy, which I would understand, I'm not really sure that posing him like a comic book villain is necessarily helpful. It seems very, very weird.
Edit: Also Mangione is not a mass shooter, but I can't help but think of this Charlie Brooker piece on mass shooters. Especially the last bit from 1.45:
They are going to have such a hard time finding a jury for this.
Quote from: Grey Fox on December 19, 2024, 10:43:08 PMThey are going to have such a hard time finding a jury for this.
Plus, the insurance companies probably won't want him using the trial as a pulpit. Maybe they get lucky and he meets an unfortunate accident or suddenly hangs himself. :P :tinfoil:
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 19, 2024, 09:03:24 PMEdit: Also Mangione is not a mass shooter, but I can't help but think of this Charlie Brooker piece on mass shooters. Especially the last bit from 1.45:
"Make it as boring as possible" is not advice likely to be followed by rabidly competitive, ratings-starved media outlets.
Quote from: Syt on December 20, 2024, 12:45:50 AMQuote from: Grey Fox on December 19, 2024, 10:43:08 PMThey are going to have such a hard time finding a jury for this.
Plus, the insurance companies probably won't want him using the trial as a pulpit. Maybe they get lucky and he meets an unfortunate accident or suddenly hangs himself. :P :tinfoil:
If he wanted to end on another FU he should put out a "I'm not suicidal" statement and then off himself :ph34r:. I mean, he killed a rich dude, he's not leaving prison in anything but a body bag, either now or in fifty years.
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 19, 2024, 09:03:24 PMMangione moved to New York today and was then escorted, publicly, with a huge team of people in various sorts of uniform holding all sorts of guns - and even the mayor was there:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GfLz7OvasAAUdot?format=jpg&name=900x900)
It feels like everyone almost deliberately performing a scene in a film (not to get all Baudrillard but did America make Hollywood or vice versa) in ways that I'm not sure is necessarily sending the message it's intended to.
If you're concerned about sympathy for this guy, which I would understand, I'm not really sure that posing him like a comic book villain is necessarily helpful. It seems very, very weird.
Rich and powerful people are still just people, if something truly scares them they are bound to make mistakes.
I have seen many likening this photo of him being lead away to being like they just caught the joker.
Really does seem like they want copycats.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on December 20, 2024, 02:28:29 AM"Make it as boring as possible" is not advice likely to be followed by rabidly competitive, ratings-starved media outlets.
I know - but I think that does have a bodycount. Although in this case it's not even the media you'd blame - it's the NYPD and the Mayor deciding to make it a maximum show for some reason. Maybe I'm wrong and it is normal for criminals from other states to be brought in on a helicopter with 20 heavily armed NYPD people around them and the Mayor there for some reason.
I suppose the NYPD can make the case that given Mangione's notoriety and how the murder has been celebrated online they wanted to dissuade possible rioters.
Yeah and I am sure there is a reasoning behind it.
Though my instinct, especially given the presence of the Mayor, is that the ultimate explanation is that they think it looks cool. They're watching the same movies and recreating the same scene - just maybe not realising that another portion of the audience think it makes the Joker look cool more than the Gotham police.
The reason is it's yet another opportunity for the NYPD to justify wanting more firepower than Ukraine.
:lmfao:
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on December 20, 2024, 12:04:06 PMThe reason is it's yet another opportunity for the NYPD to justify wanting more firepower than Ukraine.
:D
You know VM you might be onto something there, I wonder what the firearms total held by US police and government non-military agencies is versus the armed forces of other countries?
I always found that tactical gear to be silly and counterproductive outside of SWAT raid settings. It never made me feel safer to see these guys in transit every time a terrorist act happened somewhere, it just made me question the judgment of whoever dressed them up like that.
One other thing I realized is that the choice of a new NYPD commissioner is a bit unfortunate for this case. When I first heard Jessica Tisch's name, I wondered if she was related to Tisch hospital in Langone medical center. Turns out she was. Definitely doesn't help the optics to have a trust fund baby run the police department and order such spectacle for Mangione.