I haven't seen this since I was 10. It is really great; the early seasons where burdened by a weird performance by Brian Blessed and the usage of the truly absurd THE BENE GESSERIT WITCH DID IT LIVIA DID IT theory of Early Imperial history, which seems to veer into Misogynist hysteria at times, and given what I know about Claudius' later life it is possible that we will soon see even more poison-loving women.
That said, Gurney Halleck Sajanus, Caligula (is there anything John Hurt can't do?) and Tiberius are wonderful, and I'm liking Derek Jacoby more as he spends less time screaming DEVIL WOMAN than he did previously.
That said, it feels false somehow. I don't think it is just the sets, but I prefered Rome; I loved the realistic depiction of non-Imperial Family life, and I can't help but shake the feeling that it is somehow too self-conscious; we have Herod speaking for our delicate Abrahamic sensibilities, various sexual morays strike me as too modern or British (I can't see anyone plopping down an iron phallus and saying "This belonged to the Suebi, a virile people", as in Rome), and there's a general feeling that I'm looking at Hollyrome or Romus Londinius rather than the chaotic city it was, though I suppose Augustus did a lot to make Rome a less chaotic, ugly place. Perhaps it is the period, though; it is really, really hard to come up with more interesting characters than the Triumvirates provide.
What do you guys think of the series?
Less Brian Blessed, more Peter Postlethwaite, dammit.
I Claudius is Da Bomb despite it's shoddy production values. Some of the best writing and acting ever done for TV right there.
You have to view it as an artifact of it's time.
Were it to be redone, it would need to be even more expensive than Rome was to make up for our modern lack of all those great actors. Or am I being cynical?
Rome had some truly fine acting. Top-notch. I don't think it was their fault they didn't have John Hurt playing Caligula in one of the best performances I've ever seen on television.
That said, I certainly prefer Ciarian Hind's Caesar to Blessed's Augustus.
I tried to watch it, but Augustus annoyed me, he was portrayed as a village buffoon or somesuch. So I stopped trying.
This is one of the best British TV series. You have to realize that there is a huge gap in terms of budgets and TV drama expectations between the era of "I, Claudius" and "Rome" - at that time, the height of American TV drama was "I Love Lucy".
Plus, you have to remember that, unlike Rome, "I, Claudius" is a book adaptation, not an original script. If you want to compare it with something, I'd say a movie like "Lion in Winter" is close, both in terms of the on-screen standards and that it adapts a piece written for a different medium.
Quote from: Martinus on July 26, 2009, 03:08:55 AM
at that time, the height of American TV drama was "I Love Lucy".
:lol:
Lucy was a comedy.
Quote from: Martinus on July 26, 2009, 03:08:55 AM
at that time, the height of American TV drama was "I Love Lucy".
I, Claudius, aired in 1976 on the BBC. Gierek and Jaroszewicz ruled in Poland (where 07 zgłoś się premiered the same year) and the following TV shows premiered in the U.S.:
Charlie's Angels, The Muppet Show, Quincy M.E., The Bionic Woman, The Gong Show, Family Feud, Jabberjaw and Scooby Doo. How's that for quality entertainment?
More importantly, I was also born in that year.
The programme has a theatrical quality, which seemed natural at the time but now seems too stagey.
Nevertheless, a very fine series.
Yeah, well, except the Muppet Show, all are rather shitty shows. :P
Quote from: Martinus on July 26, 2009, 03:22:16 AM
Yeah, well, except the Muppet Show, all are rather shitty shows. :P
Why do you hate Quincy? :(
I have it, and watched a few episodes some years ago. I sort of got into it, but it felt quite stagey. I'll give it another go. I like that Livia chick!
Quote from: Syt on July 26, 2009, 03:20:03 AM
Quote from: Martinus on July 26, 2009, 03:08:55 AM
at that time, the height of American TV drama was "I Love Lucy".
I, Claudius, aired in 1976 on the BBC. Gierek and Jaroszewicz ruled in Poland (where 07 zgłoś się premiered the same year) and the following TV shows premiered in the U.S.:
Charlie's Angels, The Muppet Show, Quincy M.E., The Bionic Woman, The Gong Show, Family Feud, Jabberjaw and Scooby Doo. How's that for quality entertainment?
More importantly, I was also born in that year.
The Gong Show. Now there was a show. Gene, the dancing machine!
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on July 26, 2009, 03:10:28 AM
Quote from: Martinus on July 26, 2009, 03:08:55 AM
at that time, the height of American TV drama was "I Love Lucy".
:lol:
Lucy was a comedy.
He is almost as clueless as Josq.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on July 26, 2009, 03:10:28 AM
Quote from: Martinus on July 26, 2009, 03:08:55 AM
at that time, the height of American TV drama was "I Love Lucy".
:lol:
Lucy was a comedy.
Sarcasm. It's what's for dinner.
I think it is terrific, "stagey" and all. Like the stage, though, you have to be willing to suspend disbelief.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on July 26, 2009, 03:22:09 AM
The programme has a theatrical quality, which seemed natural at the time but now seems too stagey.
Nevertheless, a very fine series.
Well it is a play. Almost all the action takes place away from the 3-4 sets and the acting can be a bit hammy (Brian Blessed :o). But I think the writing and the fun of it more than makes up for that.
Brian Blessed is good at bellowing, though. :P
Quote from: Martinus on July 26, 2009, 01:11:34 PM
Brian Blessed is good at bellowing, though. :P
And attacking Ming's cruisers.
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 26, 2009, 09:57:46 AM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on July 26, 2009, 03:22:09 AM
The programme has a theatrical quality, which seemed natural at the time but now seems too stagey.
Nevertheless, a very fine series.
Well it is a play. Almost all the action takes place away from the 3-4 sets and the acting can be a bit hammy (Brian Blessed :o). But I think the writing and the fun of it more than makes up for that.
Just so. I recently watched it again about 3 years back, found myself getting peeved about the production quality and whatnot, reminded myself to treat it as a play.....and then thoroughly enjoyed it.
Quote from: Martinus on July 26, 2009, 01:11:34 PM
Brian Blessed is good at bellowing, though. :P
IS THERE ANYONE IN ROME NOT SLEEPING WITH MY DAUGHTER?
WHERE ARE MY EAGLES? :lol:
I could understand Augustus being fantastically upset and, in all probability, bellowing a bit at those moments. I just don't understand how they could paint him as incompetent though. He brought stability to an overstretched Empire that had spent over half a century tearing at its own flesh and, in so doing, completely reshaped Western Europe and the rest of human history. The portrayal of him as buffoonish is fantastically silly.
That said, John Hurt's Caligula more than makes up for it. That man is a motherfuckign genius. I think of few other actors who could so totally outshine Derek Jacobi and Jonathan Rhys-Davies.
Quote from: Syt on July 26, 2009, 03:20:03 AM
Quote from: Martinus on July 26, 2009, 03:08:55 AM
at that time, the height of American TV drama was "I Love Lucy".
I, Claudius, aired in 1976 on the BBC. Gierek and Jaroszewicz ruled in Poland (where 07 zgłoś się premiered the same year) and the following TV shows premiered in the U.S.:
Charlie's Angels, The Muppet Show, Quincy M.E., The Bionic Woman, The Gong Show, Family Feud, Jabberjaw and Scooby Doo. How's that for quality entertainment?
More importantly, I was also born in that year.
1976? big budget
Roots (1977) would be a better comparison.
Quote from: Queequeg on July 26, 2009, 08:25:20 PM
I could understand Augustus being fantastically upset and, in all probability, bellowing a bit at those moments. I just don't understand how they could paint him as incompetent though. He brought stability to an overstretched Empire that had spent over half a century tearing at its own flesh and, in so doing, completely reshaped Western Europe and the rest of human history. The portrayal of him as buffoonish is fantastically silly.
Graves was a Suetonius fan. I think what intrigued him was that Augustus did all of that but couldn't control his own family. Though Blessed is a bit over the top.
Yes, the tragedy for Augustus the man is that this powerful and talented politician can't control his own family. These are different areas of human endeavour, I don't think it's fundamentally ridiculous that Augustus could be both.
Saying that Blessed's performance is a bit OTT is like saying the Pope is a catholic of course :D
Graves used to get very annoyed when people said he'd just sat down and read Suetonius and then written I, Claudius btw. He said that he had read or consulted 50 different sources. I'd still say that even so Suetonius is his guiding light.
Quote from: Queequeg on July 26, 2009, 08:25:20 PM
I could understand Augustus being fantastically upset and, in all probability, bellowing a bit at those moments. I just don't understand how they could paint him as incompetent though. He brought stability to an overstretched Empire that had spent over half a century tearing at its own flesh and, in so doing, completely reshaped Western Europe and the rest of human history. The portrayal of him as buffoonish is fantastically silly.
Wouldn't that be Robert Graves doing that and not "them" (whoever "they" are)?
Anyway, it's an artist's vision/fictionalized historical drama, not a historical documentary. It's like complaining about "Lion in Winter"'s Richard being gay, because there are no conclusive sources to confirm that.
Not sure if an autistic antisocial history-obsessed nerd can get it, though.
We know next to nothing about the personalities involved. Let the stories soar.
Quote from: saskganesh on July 26, 2009, 08:40:06 PM
Quote from: Syt on July 26, 2009, 03:20:03 AM
Quote from: Martinus on July 26, 2009, 03:08:55 AM
at that time, the height of American TV drama was "I Love Lucy".
I, Claudius, aired in 1976 on the BBC. Gierek and Jaroszewicz ruled in Poland (where 07 zgłoś się premiered the same year) and the following TV shows premiered in the U.S.:
Charlie's Angels, The Muppet Show, Quincy M.E., The Bionic Woman, The Gong Show, Family Feud, Jabberjaw and Scooby Doo. How's that for quality entertainment?
More importantly, I was also born in that year.
1976? big budget Roots (1977) would be a better comparison.
Unfortunately,
Star Wars and
Close Encounters of the Third Kind spoiled everybody at the theaters.
Quote from: Martinus on July 27, 2009, 02:18:04 AM
Wouldn't that be Robert Graves doing that and not "them" (whoever "they" are)?
Not really. Graves's portrait of Augustus is a bit more positive. A play by necessity is much less nuanced.
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 26, 2009, 08:08:41 PM
Quote from: Martinus on July 26, 2009, 01:11:34 PM
Brian Blessed is good at bellowing, though. :P
IS THERE ANYONE IN ROME NOT SLEEPING WITH MY DAUGHTER?
WHERE ARE MY EAGLES? :lol:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Ptitleijqobqvle9an?from=Main.BRIANBLESSED (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Ptitleijqobqvle9an?from=Main.BRIANBLESSED)
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on July 27, 2009, 01:32:46 AM
Saying that Blessed's performance is a bit OTT is like saying the Pope is a catholic of course :D
:lol: I do love him.
QuoteGraves used to get very annoyed when people said he'd just sat down and read Suetonius and then written I, Claudius btw. He said that he had read or consulted 50 different sources. I'd still say that even so Suetonius is his guiding light.
Yeah, I mean Penguin Classics still publish Graves's translation of Suetonius so I think it's fair to say he knew the text very well.
I should say I love the Livia did it theory because it gives Sian Phillips a great role :)
I'm a big fan of the series. I didn't mind Blessed's Augustus - it was supposed to be a portrait of an old man basically losing his grip to the vipers in his own family. Chalk it up to senility. ;)
I particularly liked Sejanus - though it is hard not to think of the actor as Captain Picard. :lol:
Quote from: Queequeg on July 25, 2009, 06:51:36 PM
I haven't seen this since I was 10. It is really great; the early seasons where burdened by a weird performance by Brian Blessed and the usage of the truly absurd THE BENE GESSERIT WITCH DID IT LIVIA DID IT theory of Early Imperial history,
It's not *that* absurd - it is basically an elaboration on the anti-Livian gossip in Tacitus.
Quote from: The Larch on July 27, 2009, 06:08:08 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 26, 2009, 08:08:41 PM
Quote from: Martinus on July 26, 2009, 01:11:34 PM
Brian Blessed is good at bellowing, though. :P
IS THERE ANYONE IN ROME NOT SLEEPING WITH MY DAUGHTER?
WHERE ARE MY EAGLES? :lol:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Ptitleijqobqvle9an?from=Main.BRIANBLESSED (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Ptitleijqobqvle9an?from=Main.BRIANBLESSED)
QuoteIT IS SAID BY SOME THAT THE CHARACTER OF DESTRUCTION (A SENTIENT PERSONIFICATION OF DIFFICULT CHANGES WHO HAS QUIT HIS JOB TO BECOME AN ARTIST) FROM THE SANDMAN IS BASED ON HIM. SINCE AUTHOR NEIL GAIMAN IS ONE OF THE ONES WHO SAYS THIS, IT IS PERHAPS TRUE BUT NO LESS UNLIKELY.
:lol:
Quote from: The Larch on July 27, 2009, 06:08:08 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 26, 2009, 08:08:41 PM
Quote from: Martinus on July 26, 2009, 01:11:34 PM
Brian Blessed is good at bellowing, though. :P
IS THERE ANYONE IN ROME NOT SLEEPING WITH MY DAUGHTER?
WHERE ARE MY EAGLES? :lol:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Ptitleijqobqvle9an?from=Main.BRIANBLESSED (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Ptitleijqobqvle9an?from=Main.BRIANBLESSED)
NOOO!!!!! Not TV Tropes! A man can got stuck in there for days!
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 27, 2009, 10:23:52 AM
NOOO!!!!! Not TV Tropes! A man can got stuck in there for days!
That's true enough. :lol: Damn addictive.
Quote from: Malthus on July 27, 2009, 10:25:31 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 27, 2009, 10:23:52 AM
NOOO!!!!! Not TV Tropes! A man can got stuck in there for days!
That's true enough. :lol: Damn addictive.
There's always another trope you've never heard of that you just have to click on.
I've spent hours and hours going through the all the tropes listed for just one anime series.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 27, 2009, 10:23:52 AM
Quote from: The Larch on July 27, 2009, 06:08:08 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 26, 2009, 08:08:41 PM
Quote from: Martinus on July 26, 2009, 01:11:34 PM
Brian Blessed is good at bellowing, though. :P
IS THERE ANYONE IN ROME NOT SLEEPING WITH MY DAUGHTER?
WHERE ARE MY EAGLES? :lol:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Ptitleijqobqvle9an?from=Main.BRIANBLESSED (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Ptitleijqobqvle9an?from=Main.BRIANBLESSED)
NOOO!!!!! Not TV Tropes! A man can got stuck in there for days!
That site is worth it just for the BRIAN BLESSED entry. :lmfao:
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 27, 2009, 09:00:52 AM
It's not *that* absurd - it is basically an elaboration on the anti-Livian gossip in Tacitus.
Augustus lived to a ripe old age and was sickly for much of his life. And mortality was common in the Ancient World, and I'd expect that with the rapid moral and political change of the period there was more than one old woman who was willing to kill his/her family members for a leg up. No reason to believe Tacitus to the letter.
I'm starting to wonder how much of the sexual "history" of both the Romans and Byzantines is bullshit. Some of the details of this seem really implausible even for fantastically rich and debauched people.
Quote from: Malthus on July 27, 2009, 08:21:39 AM
I particularly liked Sejanus - though it is hard not to think of the actor as Captain Picard. :lol:
For a long time, I had the opposite problem! :lol:
Picard: Sign it.
Data: What is it?
Picard: A confession.
Data: To what?
Picard: Your conspiracy with Geordi to subvert the computer systems. Sign it.
Quote from: Queequeg on July 27, 2009, 04:59:59 PMI'm starting to wonder how much of the sexual "history" of both the Romans and Byzantines is bullshit. Some of the details of this seem really implausible even for fantastically rich and debauched people.
I think it is generally accepted that Suetonius was quite over the top. A modern day version of Ed Anger (the real Ed Anger, not the poster). That doesn't make the read any less hilarious, of course.
Generally if an Emperor was remembered as being a tyrant, ancient people generally just lumped shitloads of character assasination on him endlessly just to underline the fact that this guy was a really really bad guy.
So in the memory he would go from being merely petty, cruel, and inneffectual to a sexually depraved combination of Skeletor and Megatron.
Quote from: Valmy on July 27, 2009, 09:05:53 PM
So in the memory he would go from being merely petty, cruel, and inneffectual to a sexually depraved combination of Skeletor and Megatron.
:lol:
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 27, 2009, 06:16:39 AM
I should say I love the Livia did it theory because it gives Sian Phillips a great role :)
:yes: !!
i haven't watched this since i was little. they used to run the it once in a while on tv (CBC for the canucks)
Yeah, we can think of him as our Super soaraway Suetonius, the Sun newspaper of classical historians :D
A very entertaining read. Also, even when he is OTT or dubious, I bet these stories were being told and believed by the Roman citizenry.
Quote from: grumbler on July 27, 2009, 06:30:53 PM
Quote from: Malthus on July 27, 2009, 08:21:39 AM
I particularly liked Sejanus - though it is hard not to think of the actor as Captain Picard. :lol:
For a long time, I had the opposite problem! :lol:
Picard: Sign it.
Data: What is it?
Picard: A confession.
Data: To what?
Picard: Your conspiracy with Geordi to subvert the computer systems. Sign it.
:lmfao:
"Now, we'll start again."
Quote from: grumbler on July 27, 2009, 06:30:53 PM
Quote from: Malthus on July 27, 2009, 08:21:39 AM
I particularly liked Sejanus - though it is hard not to think of the actor as Captain Picard. :lol:
For a long time, I had the opposite problem! :lol:
Picard: Sign it.
Data: What is it?
Picard: A confession.
Data: To what?
Picard: Your conspiracy with Geordi to subvert the computer systems. Sign it.
He has too much hair to really make the connection... :P
Quote from: The Larch on July 27, 2009, 06:08:08 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 26, 2009, 08:08:41 PM
Quote from: Martinus on July 26, 2009, 01:11:34 PM
Brian Blessed is good at bellowing, though. :P
IS THERE ANYONE IN ROME NOT SLEEPING WITH MY DAUGHTER?
WHERE ARE MY EAGLES? :lol:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Ptitleijqobqvle9an?from=Main.BRIANBLESSED (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Ptitleijqobqvle9an?from=Main.BRIANBLESSED)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ftvtropes.org%2Fpmwiki%2Fpub%2Fimages%2Fbrianblessed.jpg&hash=51cb5c83406245828f6fdc576a02085d0cdee855)
:lol:
Quote from: Queequeg on July 27, 2009, 04:59:59 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 27, 2009, 09:00:52 AM
It's not *that* absurd - it is basically an elaboration on the anti-Livian gossip in Tacitus.
And mortality was common in the Ancient World,
I may be mistaken Spellus, but I think mortality is still a common affliction. :unsure:
Quote from: Valmy on July 27, 2009, 09:05:53 PM
Generally if an Emperor was remembered as being a tyrant, ancient people generally just lumped shitloads of character assasination on him endlessly just to underline the fact that this guy was a really really bad guy.
So in the memory he would go from being merely petty, cruel, and inneffectual to a sexually depraved combination of Skeletor and Megatron.
So true.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.motifake.com%2Fimage%2Fdemotivational-poster%2F0805%2Fhitler-eviler-than-skeletor-demotivational-poster-1212187848.jpg&hash=04a5568c8f72a25dd02991bf52dc8cea20166bec) (http://www.motifake.com/hitler-eviler-than-skeletor-demotivational-poster-7296.html)
Quote from: Queequeg on July 27, 2009, 04:59:59 PM
No reason to believe Tacitus to the letter.
Of couse not. His Livia accusations are mere gossip at best. The point is that a fictionalized dramatic teleplay is perfectly justified in borrowing from a legitimate ancient source and playing up the soap opery aspects of that account.
QuoteI'm starting to wonder how much of the sexual "history" of both the Romans and Byzantines is bullshit.
I assume you don't take the Anecdota at fair value.
Remember much of ancient writings that we now call "histories" could be better termed using modern usage as propaganda or diatribe. There wasn't any kind of professional sense of strict accuracy or neutrality.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 28, 2009, 12:19:54 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on July 27, 2009, 04:59:59 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 27, 2009, 09:00:52 AM
It's not *that* absurd - it is basically an elaboration on the anti-Livian gossip in Tacitus.
And mortality was common in the Ancient World,
I may be mistaken Spellus, but I think mortality is still a common affliction. :unsure:
:lol:
@ JR :yes:
Alot of people in my college courses had trouble coming to grips with that fact... that is, until they read Herodotus. :blink:
Quote from: Caliga on July 28, 2009, 01:01:44 PM
@ JR :yes:
Alot of people in my college courses had trouble coming to grips with that fact... that is, until they read Herodotus. :blink:
Come on. How can you doubt that Indians get hoards of gold robbing it from the nests of super-swift giant desert ants and make good their escape using pre-set relays of camels?