This little community was always multi-cultural and multi-lingual. From bmolsson's barely legible Swedo-English to The Brain's and Syt's perfect English.
Despite all the reading and listening I do in English, I feel my grasp has deteriorated quite a bit. When I travel, I am on the level of the people I speak to, although with a British accent.
And, to be honest, that doesn't always improve relations the way 25 gold in EU IV would.
I have, for some reason, found it easier to express myself in English than Norwegian. Which is a drawback when your job is, uhm, let me check my notes, yes. Writing. Stuff.
So I have two questions:
1) How do you native speakers think we are holding up?
2) For us with English as a second or third language, how much of the information you consume in a day is in English? And how do you keep up with slang?
There are English words I have read so many times yet still fail to understand. Like "maladroit".
To be completely honest, Spanish is probably my third language nowadays. Catalan for my family/friend interactions, English for professional stuff and general internet life. Spanish I think nowadays I only use for posting on the Spanish Paradox forums and the occasional Spanish work gig.
And yes, my job is also writing stuff. I feel there's a decision one has to make between learning more languages "just" to communicate in them or learning one well enough that you can use it professionally. I kinda dislike that I never learnt anything other than English (I dabbled semi-seriously in German years ago), but English is what keeps me employed nowadays.
What I do is try to keep me immersed in as much English as I can. Movies, media, even beers with expat friends, etc...
And slang is a bitch indeed. Not as much understanding it, but using it properly (I very rarely try).
Quote2) For us with English as a second or third language, how much of the information you consume in a day is in English? And how do you keep up with slang?
I guess two thirds of my work-related communication is (simple) English as all the techies are from India.
Privately, significantly less. But I do regularly consume English media (news, other online content, Netflix, video games, etc.).
I make no active effort to learn slang. I pick up the business bullshit terms in daily communication anyway.
I live 95% of my life in English (except right now as I'm visiting Denmark), so no problem at all. I still make a few mistakes when speaking/ writing - enough that attentive people can identify that am an ESL speaker, but nothing that interferes at all.
As for Danish - I keep up with it through reading news and listening and reading online every so often. I probably have to think a bit more before I speak and occasionally use non-standard Anglicisms (there are a lot more accepted ones since I left). I probably also speak a little more old fashioned than the cool urban youth - but that could just be age too.
As a native English speaker, I would say that it would be hard for me, if I had no prior knowledge, to reliably sort the ESL writers here from the native-English writers. Part of this may be due to the fact that some of our native-English writers (maybe even including me) don't make enough of an effort to communicate clearly and concisely.
Quote from: Jacob on August 27, 2024, 10:18:47 AMI live 95% of my life in English (except right now as I'm visiting Denmark), so no problem at all. I still make a few mistakes when speaking/ writing - enough that attentive people can identify that am an ESL speaker, but nothing that interferes at all.
As for Danish - I keep up with it through reading news and listening and reading online every so often. I probably have to think a bit more before I speak and occasionally use non-standard Anglicisms (there are a lot more accepted ones since I left). I probably also speak a little more old fashioned than the cool urban youth - but that could just be age too.
Danes and Norwegians do not understand each other well when speaking. I always wondered how it was going off and living in a new country like you did.
I guess in my work, I am 100 percent Norwegian. However, most of what I consume in my spare time is in English, be it books, TV serials or audiobooks/podcasts.
By using the Duolingo app, I managed to learn some Italian, which actually is the easier of the Latin languages to pronounce for a Norwegian. Spanish is not easy, and the only way I recognise Portuguese is by the sibillants. Bom dia my butt.
I wish I had kept practising my German, but when I was in Berlin two years ago, I was :huh: :unsure: :uffda: and spoke mostly English.
I'm a straight-up anglophone. Studied French in school such that I can pick up the odd word or phrase, took a course in Ukrainian but can't really say more than a dozen words.
Trying to think of the non-English speakers from Languish I've met. I guess that's Tamas and Martinus. Both of their english was excellent in person if accented (this was a long time ago I'm willing to bet that Tamas's accent has faded substantially living in the UK now).
Other than BMolsson (or going back maybe I-killed-kenny), everyone's written english is indistinguishable from a native speaker.
So we hosted international students for several years here at the Barrister home. One of the primary reasons they come to Canada is to improve their english. From my observations it really depends on how much you throw yourself into a language. We had three girls from Spain, but their english was already excellent when they arrived. We had two boys from Germany - their english was rougher but they were watching english media and throwing themselves into talking with us, so their english really improved.
We also had a girl from Japan. Admittedly going from Japanese to English is a bigger transition than from German or Spanish - but she really didn't try much and we were still having to rely on google translate pretty regularily just to have fairly basic conversations with her.
Books, movies, TV shows, games etc are overwhelmingly but not exclusively English. Professionally it's a mix of Swedish and English. There's a lot of difference between different subject matters; some I feel very confident writing about in English (like history for instance), others find me searching for the right word.
Slang I guess mostly through YT videos.
Quote from: The Brain on August 27, 2024, 12:06:52 PMBooks, movies, TV shows, games etc are overwhelmingly but not exclusively English. Professionally it's a mix of Swedish and English. There's a lot of difference between different subject matters; some I feel very confident writing about in English (like history for instance), others find me searching for the right word.
Slang I guess mostly through YT videos.
Your English has always been impeccable. Some Swedes' on the P'dox forums, not so much. Peo. If you remember him. :lol:
:Embarrass:
There are errors that are made every now and then. Some of the French speakers make some grammatical errors. But it is always easy to understand what they are trying to communicate. Oex of course writes better than most English speakers here. Me included.
Quote from: Norgy on August 27, 2024, 12:35:52 PMQuote from: The Brain on August 27, 2024, 12:06:52 PMBooks, movies, TV shows, games etc are overwhelmingly but not exclusively English. Professionally it's a mix of Swedish and English. There's a lot of difference between different subject matters; some I feel very confident writing about in English (like history for instance), others find me searching for the right word.
Slang I guess mostly through YT videos.
Your English has always been impeccable. Some Swedes' on the P'dox forums, not so much. Peo. If you remember him. :lol:
Thanks! Remember him, yeah maybe his English wasn't always perfect.
So I am basically almost alone in not using English at work, it seems.
Quote from: Norgy on August 27, 2024, 07:56:14 AMDespite all the reading and listening I do in English, I feel my grasp has deteriorated quite a bit. When I travel, I am on the level of the people I speak to, although with a British accent.
...
I have, for some reason, found it easier to express myself in English than Norwegian. Which is a drawback when your job is, uhm, let me check my notes, yes. Writing. Stuff.
This seems contradictory. Your English has deteriorated, but you still feel it's easier to express yourself in it, rather than Norwegian?
It is paradoxal, I agree.
I've always been quite jealous of Scandis and Dutch. They have their own private local language all totally walled off and protected with its own ecosystem, but at the same time English is close enough that learning it isn't too much bother (and they learn how to learn languages with it).
The closest thing to a non-native "tell" is that folk here are usually always using "proper" text-book English. But then there's plenty of native speakers who do this too so.... Yeah. Its not like in speaking where there's some shibboleths and other common slips folk make- though with those I think you tend to have to be familiar with a particular language's speakers, for instance the French misuse of normally.
As to people working in English...again this is impressive. When I worked in a Japanese office or visit Switzerland I find the whole experience of being surrounded by another language for most of the day quite mentally exhausting.
Quote from: Norgy on August 27, 2024, 02:25:20 PMSo I am basically almost alone in not using English at work, it seems.
No. :)
I obviously worked, and lived, almost exclusively in English when I taught in the United States - which does wonders for picking up slang... But this was, as Josquius notes, quite mentally taxing, in ways that native English-speaking folks often can't imagine - and ways I hadn't imagined either. As my partner then was Irish, I also did not have a "safe heaven", a household where I could retreat to, and speak French - unless I called my parents. Only a few French colleagues I met for a beer, from time to time.
Since I've returned home almost four years ago, I work and teach almost exclusively in French - which means my English likely has deteriorated. I still read in English (but not exclusively, as history still welcomes publishing in a variety of languages), talk to some ex-colleagues and deal with colleagues from the Rest of Canada over the phone, but it's quite a (welcome) change.
My American in-laws seem to understand me well enough, and I make a point of not correcting their grammar too often.
Quote from: Josquius on August 28, 2024, 02:54:22 AMI've always been quite jealous of Scandis and Dutch. They have their own private local language all totally walled off and protected with its own ecosystem, but at the same time English is close enough that learning it isn't too much bother (and they learn how to learn languages with it).
To be fair, the English language does contain a lot of loan words from Norse and Danish, and when the tables turned, our languages have had a serious impact from English.
The Scottish dialects have a lot of old Norse in them, like "ken". Aye, I ken.
A danger is that many words look kinda similar in Swedish and English but don't mean the same thing. Examples:
Construction - konstruktion
Massive - massiv
Eventually - eventuellt
Quote from: Norgy on August 28, 2024, 06:08:41 AMQuote from: Josquius on August 28, 2024, 02:54:22 AMI've always been quite jealous of Scandis and Dutch. They have their own private local language all totally walled off and protected with its own ecosystem, but at the same time English is close enough that learning it isn't too much bother (and they learn how to learn languages with it).
To be fair, the English language does contain a lot of loan words from Norse and Danish, and when the tables turned, our languages have had a serious impact from English.
The Scottish dialects have a lot of old Norse in them, like "ken". Aye, I ken.
You don't have to tell me ;)
(https://i.redd.it/2ebgja6djtn81.jpg)
When I was living in Sweden people always thought I was Danish.
Despite spending a decade working full time jobs in Hungary before moving to England, I have never held a job that didn't have English as its official language. :)
Quote from: Norgy on August 27, 2024, 11:44:58 AMBy using the Duolingo app, I managed to learn some Italian, which actually is the easier of the Latin languages to pronounce for a Norwegian. Spanish is not easy, and the only way I recognise Portuguese is by the sibillants. Bom dia my butt.
The hardest part is not the sibilants, not that difficult to pronounce or recognise (Lisbon dialect might be different :P ) nor that many, even the hushing sibilants (shibilants) in Portuguese but the nasal vowels, namely the diphtongs. There are like 23 vowels, compared to 5 in Castilian (Spanish a.k.a the pentavocalists) to give you an idea. Italian has a bit more than Castilian, on par with Catalan I'd say (heptavocalists).
Stress is roughly the same as Castilian, so no problem there though not the same as Italian, more singing, except in the Alentejano variety of Portuguese, "singing" as well.
QuoteI wish I had kept practising my German, but when I was in Berlin two years ago, I was :huh: :unsure: :uffda: and spoke mostly English.
Given the trouble I went to learn German I try to practice it every now and then.
My english is awesome. If you disagree you can blame yourself. I've learned it here since I was 16 years old.
Well your English certainly takes a tire iron and beats my French into a bloody pulp.
Quote from: Grey Fox on August 28, 2024, 03:08:50 PMMy english is awesome. If you disagree you can blame yourself. I've learned it here since I was 16 years old.
:D
Quote from: Norgy on August 27, 2024, 07:56:14 AM2) For us with English as a second or third language, how much of the information you consume in a day is in English?
3)And how do you keep up with slang?
4) There are English words I have read so many times yet still fail to understand. Like "maladroit".
2) A lot. I read the news everyday in English, I read about finance and economics, I read here a few times during the week. More than half of what I read during a day is in English.
3) Ah. Well, I watch television mostly during Winter. So, it really depends on the tv show. Game of Thrones and Star Wars are not good shows for slang. The Sopranos and BoardWalk Empire were better. :)
Otherwise, I don't meet English speaking folks. Languishites are the only English speakers I know personally and they don't travel much toward Eastern Quebec, for some reason. :P
4) I can help with that one: It's a French word :P Gauche? Ah, damn. :P
Clumsy. :) Droit = right. "To be right", like a right angle. Therefore, maladroit is mal = bad, wrong. Constantly wrongly right: maladroit.
Stick with the English vocabulary, it'll be easier for you. :D :P
Quote from: Barrister on August 27, 2024, 11:56:48 AMWe also had a girl from Japan. Admittedly going from Japanese to English is a bigger transition than from German or Spanish - but she really didn't try much and we were still having to rely on google translate pretty regularily just to have fairly basic conversations with her.
My cousin's girlfriend is Mexican. She's been in Quebec for close to 4 years now. They've been together for 2, live together for 1. She still does not speak a word of French and they mostly rely on a translation app on their phone to communicate.
Quote from: Norgy on August 27, 2024, 02:25:20 PMSo I am basically almost alone in not using English at work, it seems.
No, I work mostly in French. I read and will later answer e-mails in English. I put my Excel and my browsers in English (to the annoyance of colleagues who need to use my computer), I'll have to talk on the phone in English later on too, but right now, it's almost all in French. Boss and colleagues are Francos, most clients are Francos, but some are English Speakers and suppliers are half and half.
I'm just trying to catch up with the late work as I'm new and figure out the needlessly complex systems they've set for themselves. Rewriting the Excel tables, using formulas and macros along the way. I just found a Python script to split a PDF file in multiple pages. This is going to save me so much time right now.
Quote from: Oexmelin on August 28, 2024, 03:36:53 AMI obviously worked, and lived, almost exclusively in English when I taught in the United States - which does wonders for picking up slang... But this was, as Josquius notes, quite mentally taxing, in ways that native English-speaking folks often can't imagine - and ways I hadn't imagined either. As my partner then was Irish, I also did not have a "safe heaven", a household where I could retreat to, and speak French - unless I called my parents. Only a few French colleagues I met for a beer, from time to time.
Never had to totally immerse myself like that.
The closest I've been was in Ottawa, by my closest working unit were separatist Francos in 1995 :menace:
I still unofficially managed the rest of the team and the programmer exclusively in English though, despite the presence of French speakers. It was the Federal government, after all. :P
And of course, my family there were all Franco-Ontarians, so I could see them on the week-ends I wasn't working. I had no roommates for this part, and wasn't attending that 5 à 7 with the other university students as I was mostly always working late and didn't know anyone either.
Still, I enjoyed that part. Working exclusively in English this time didn't bother as much as the last time when we were all French speakers and there was one English speaker. In a bilingual position. I had cable tv with only English channels, I think. Didn't watch the French stuff anyway, just Babylon 5 and Star Trek.
Quote from: The Brain on August 28, 2024, 06:19:51 AMConstruction - konstruktion
absolut konstruktion
translated as:absolute construction.
Yeah. Someone is messing with me on the internet. :glare:
:P
It's architecture, right?
What I can say for certain is that this board helped me understand English better back when I joined, even with a degree in English (a lower one, for certain).
What's Wordsworth to the various ways people tell each other to eff off. :lol:
Quote from: Norgy on September 02, 2024, 04:32:08 AMWhat I can say for certain is that this board helped me understand English better back when I joined, even with a degree in English (a lower one, for certain).
What's Wordsworth to the various ways people tell each other to eff off. :lol:
I'm getting a feeling for Swedish now. Fracking language. :P
Quote from: viper37 on September 01, 2024, 07:49:56 PMQuote from: The Brain on August 28, 2024, 06:19:51 AMConstruction - konstruktion
absolut konstruktion
translated as:
absolute construction.
Yeah. Someone is messing with me on the internet. :glare:
:P
It's architecture, right?
Konstruktion is when you design something. It doesn't include manufacturing/building it.
What's building? Arkitektor? :D
Quote from: HVC on September 08, 2024, 09:51:52 AMWhat's building? Arkitektor? :D
Bygga is the verb for building something.
In German, Konstruktion would probably be best translated as design (n), i.e. the design of a car, building, machine etc.
Quote from: Norgy on September 02, 2024, 04:32:08 AMWhat I can say for certain is that this board helped me understand English better back when I joined, even with a degree in English (a lower one, for certain).
What's Wordsworth to the various ways people tell each other to eff off. :lol:
I am quite certain hanging around on Languish helped me a lot. I already had an advantage over many (most) English-speaking Hungarians of the time by having learnt the language out of practical necessity (my nerdy hobbies required it) and for practical use, so I wasn't speaking and writing the extremely lame language-course English most other people at the time had.
But then coming here reading your discussions and participating myself I think has helped a lot in learning to express my thoughts in English.
More indirectly, I think you guys helped push me away gradually from prevailing political/cultural norms in my old country which I suspect contributed in a non-insignificant way to making me want to try and live abroad.
Quote from: Tamas on September 08, 2024, 03:30:52 PMQuote from: Norgy on September 02, 2024, 04:32:08 AMWhat I can say for certain is that this board helped me understand English better back when I joined, even with a degree in English (a lower one, for certain).
What's Wordsworth to the various ways people tell each other to eff off. :lol:
I am quite certain hanging around on Languish helped me a lot. I already had an advantage over many (most) English-speaking Hungarians of the time by having learnt the language out of practical necessity (my nerdy hobbies required it) and for practical use, so I wasn't speaking and writing the extremely lame language-course English most other people at the time had.
But then coming here reading your discussions and participating myself I think has helped a lot in learning to express my thoughts in English.
More indirectly, I think you guys helped push me away gradually from prevailing political/cultural norms in my old country which I suspect contributed in a non-insignificant way to making me want to try and live abroad.
AND you learned the Union zerg-rush in 1862 could have been a thing.
Quote from: PDH on September 08, 2024, 05:19:52 PMAND you learned the Union zerg-rush in 1862 could have been a thing.
:ultra: