Is the opening ceremony another act of sabotage, too?
I saw that the surfing competitions are being held not in Paris exactly (which makes sense) ... but French Polynesia :lol:
"Fuck those guys, we want them as far from the Games as possible!"
Quote from: Syt on July 26, 2024, 03:19:23 PMI saw that the surfing competitions are being held not in Paris exactly (which makes sense) ... but French Polynesia :lol:
"Fuck those guys, we want them as far from the Games as possible!"
Better waves, darling.
They're in paradise on earth, Tahiti. They are the lucky ones.
Liked the last bit of the ceremony much better. The boat bits were pretty awful imho. Particularly all those small nations with pitiful boats and then the big countries in their large superyachts. Not a good look :D
We don't have an Olympics thread?
Quote from: celedhring on July 26, 2024, 04:23:22 PMLiked the last bit of the ceremony much better. The boat bits were pretty awful imho. Particularly all those small nations with pitiful boats and then the big countries in their large superyachts. Not a good look :D
We don't have an Olympics thread?
Although Bhutan's boat was tiny but lovely.
Also the thing I found weirdest were the multi-country boats that looked like Thames Clippers - like Germany, Albania and someone else (who is before Algerie) sharing a boat :huh:
I agree. I'm not sure the opening ceremony on the river really worked too well. It was a bit bitty and disconnected. Some were great (Marie Antoinette) but because it was in different locations it didn't really seem like a show. Until the last hour or so once they got to the Eiffel Tower so it was all in one place - and that section was fantastic (although again on issues with rivers - they're quite long so the ghost rider took a while).
And on the rain - feel very, very sorry for Paris because this is just dreadful luck :lol:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GTb_dp7XIAAJFL9?format=jpg&name=medium)
The Assassin's Creed tribute was cool. But I liked the entire package.
I think it was impressive. The boat thing was a nice chance of pace from watching everyone walk on.
I enjoyed it but glad I could watch on TV so it could cut to all the bits.
Didn't spot this at the time, but on countries sharing boats - I can only imagine the Portugal, Qatar and North Korea boat must have been a bit weird :lol:
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 26, 2024, 05:09:37 PMDidn't spot this at the time, but on countries sharing boats - I can only imagine the Portugal, Qatar and North Korea boat must have been a bit weird :lol:
Unfair for Portugal to be lumped with those two. :thumbsdown:
The joys of the alphabet P,Q,R (epublic of juche Korea).
Enough to ruin a photo.
To be fair, Portugal spawned the one who said he was rubed at the beach :hug:
It's a surprise no country has ever changed its name primarily to switch seats at international events.
Speaking of korea, I heard they mixed up their north and south when introducing south Korea? :lol:
Incidentally for all I wasn't convinced by the first couple of hours jumping down the Seine, the last ten minutes of the Olympic flame and Celine Dion were incredible. Rewatched a lot of times - and particularly given what she's been through with her health, just an amazing performance from Dion.
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 27, 2024, 07:38:35 AMIncidentally for all I wasn't convinced by the first couple of hours jumping down the Seine, the last ten minutes of the Olympic flame and Celine Dion were incredible. Rewatched a lot of times - and particularly given what she's been through with her health, just an amazing performance from Dion.
A lot of times? :hmm:
Apparently lots of people triggered by the lgbtq+ artsy dance, African singers who dare not to use textbook French, and Philip Katerin as some sort of "sexy" smurf god.
It was interesting being spread across the city like so. Very different to the usual stadium based stuff. LA might as well just not bother.
No one asked for textbook French from Nakamura. :lol: Basic French would have been enough. :P Her neo-sabir, based on suburban sociolects, franglais, and Bambara is weirdly comical in a way.
Quote from: garbon on July 27, 2024, 07:57:35 AMA lot of times? :hmm:
I don't think we need to put a number on it :ph34r: :P
How exactly does a female artist become a gay icon? Is their like a vote or something? :D
As I mentioned before I'm not really into the Olympics, but I do enjoy hearing about olympic failures and snafus. Schadenfreude I guess. Anyway, because of the rain cyclists have been going down left and right.
I really liked how the opening ceremony showed off Paris and wasn't just inside some stadium. Brilliant idea. We will see what LA does to respond (if anything).
Really awesome. Hell of a show.
Quote from: Josquius on July 27, 2024, 09:07:28 AMApparently lots of people triggered by the lgbtq+ artsy dance, African singers who dare not to use textbook French, and Philip Katerin as some sort of "sexy" smurf god.
It was interesting being spread across the city like so. Very different to the usual stadium based stuff. LA might as well just not bother.
Yeah well what did they expect? A military parade?
Quote from: Valmy on July 27, 2024, 01:48:30 PMQuote from: Josquius on July 27, 2024, 09:07:28 AMApparently lots of people triggered by the lgbtq+ artsy dance, African singers who dare not to use textbook French, and Philip Katerin as some sort of "sexy" smurf god.
It was interesting being spread across the city like so. Very different to the usual stadium based stuff. LA might as well just not bother.
Yeah well what did they expect? A military parade?
Yeah, the military parade is on July 14th. :contract: :P
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/article/2024/jul/28/paris-olympics-organisers-apologise-to-christians-for-last-supper-parody
QuoteParis Olympics organisers apologise to Christians for Last Supper parody
Apology follows anger among Catholics and other groups at opening ceremony segment that resembled biblical scene
The organising committee of Paris 2024 has apologised to Catholics and other Christian groups who were outraged by a scene during the opening ceremony that evoked Leonardo da Vinci's The Last Supper painting with drag queens, a transgender model and a singer made up as the Greek god of wine.
The parody of the biblical scene, performed against the backdrop of the River Seine, was intended to interpret Dionysus and raise awareness "of the absurdity of violence between human beings", organisers wrote on X.
The committee was forced to apologise after the performance caused outrage among Catholics, Christian groups and conservative politicians around the world.
"Clearly there was never an intention to show disrespect to any religious group. [The opening ceremony] tried to celebrate community tolerance," the Paris 2024 spokesperson Anne Descamps told a press conference. "We believe this ambition was achieved. If people have taken any offence we are really sorry."
France has a rich Catholic heritage but also has a long tradition of secularism and anti-clericalism. Blasphemy is legal and considered by many to be an essential pillar of freedom of speech. Supporters of the tableau praised its message of inclusivity and tolerance.
The Catholic church in France said it deplored a ceremony that "included scenes of derision and mockery of Christianity".
Monsignor Emmanuel Gobilliard, a delegate of the bishops of France for the Games, said some French athletes had had trouble sleeping because of the fallout from the controversy.
Archbishop Charles Scicluna, the highest-ranking Catholic official in Malta and an official for the Vatican's powerful doctrinal office, said he had contacted France's ambassador to Valletta to complain about the "gratuitous insult".
The Italian bishops' conference said that what should have been a celebration of French culture took an "unexpectedly negative turn, becoming a parade of banal errors, accompanied by trite and predictable ideologies".
An article in Avvenire, the daily Italian newspaper affiliated with the Catholic church, said: "Don't take us for moralistic bigots, but what's the point of having to experience every single global event, even a sporting one, as if it were a Gay Pride?"
Matteo Salvini, the leader of the far-right League, a party in Giorgia Meloni's coalition government, described the segment as "squalid". "Opening the Olympics by insulting billions of Christians around the world was a really bad start, dear French," he added.
The Hungarian prime minister, Viktor Orbán, spoke of the "moral void of the west".
Some commentators said the controversy was another example of 21st-century culture wars turbocharged by a 24-hour news cycle and social media.
Thomas Jolly, the artistic director behind the flamboyant opening ceremony, said religious subversion had never been his intention. "We wanted to talk about diversity. Diversity means being together. We wanted to include everyone, as simple as that," he said on Saturday.
It was an Asterix parody why are they apologizing. People are sorry too quickly nowadays.
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on July 26, 2024, 05:43:10 PMQuote from: Sheilbh on July 26, 2024, 05:09:37 PMDidn't spot this at the time, but on countries sharing boats - I can only imagine the Portugal, Qatar and North Korea boat must have been a bit weird :lol:
Unfair for Portugal to be lumped with those two. :thumbsdown:
The joys of the alphabet P,Q,R (epublic of juche Korea).
Enough to ruin a photo.
Follow-up:
(https://d2r3ijz46v2k0u.cloudfront.net/40013070-95d7-4bc8-9920-6c57720a9bbe.png)
The Brazilian big bird would fit right in with that picture
(https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/002/012/884/9b1)
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 28, 2024, 01:40:11 PMIt was an Asterix parody why are they apologizing. People are sorry too quickly nowadays.
or they could try and 'insult' some harder targets... But I guess they're afraid of real and literal blowback.
I don't think they intended to insult anyone. It is just very hard to do anything in the age of social media and not have a reaction of outrage from somebody.
Just found out breakdancing is an Olympics sport now :lmfao:
Quote from: Valmy on July 28, 2024, 06:58:23 PMI don't think they intended to insult anyone. It is just very hard to do anything in the age of social media and not have a reaction of outrage from somebody.
I mean it was very poor foresight if they didn't see it coming.
Quote from: HVC on July 28, 2024, 07:00:21 PMQuote from: Valmy on July 28, 2024, 06:58:23 PMI don't think they intended to insult anyone. It is just very hard to do anything in the age of social media and not have a reaction of outrage from somebody.
I mean it was very poor foresight if they didn't see it coming.
Disagree. You have to be a pretty oversensitive freak to find it offensive. That was an awesome show.
Quote from: Valmy on July 28, 2024, 07:24:26 PMQuote from: HVC on July 28, 2024, 07:00:21 PMQuote from: Valmy on July 28, 2024, 06:58:23 PMI don't think they intended to insult anyone. It is just very hard to do anything in the age of social media and not have a reaction of outrage from somebody.
I mean it was very poor foresight if they didn't see it coming.
Disagree. You have to be a pretty oversensitive freak to find it offensive. That was an awesome show.
A drag rif on Jesus and his disciples was bound to piss off Christians. How is that not foreseeable? I mean more power to the producer guy. Art should illicit a reaction, positive or negative :D
Still though when dissing religions (of which I am a big fan of) the organisers should ask themselves: "would I dare do this with Islam?" if the answer to that is no, then maybe don't do it to others either.
Quote from: HVC on July 28, 2024, 06:59:44 PMJust found out breakdancing is an Olympics sport now :lmfao:
30 years too late. :mad:
Quote from: Tonitrus on July 28, 2024, 07:52:37 PMQuote from: HVC on July 28, 2024, 06:59:44 PMJust found out breakdancing is an Olympics sport now :lmfao:
30 years too late. :mad:
I mean it's no sillier than synchronized swimming. Though to be fair I'd snort if I was alive when that was first brought in too.
My God, this stuff is boring.
KD and Lebron looked amazing.
Jokic did too, but he had no help whatsoever.
Quote from: Tamas on July 28, 2024, 07:51:51 PMStill though when dissing religions (of which I am a big fan of) the organisers should ask themselves: "would I dare do this with Islam?" if the answer to that is no, then maybe don't do it to others either.
They played Imagine. "No religion" is incompatible with Islam.
Quote from: Tamas on July 28, 2024, 07:51:51 PMStill though when dissing religions (of which I am a big fan of) the organisers should ask themselves: "would I dare do this with Islam?" if the answer to that is no, then maybe don't do it to others either.
Why not? Does Islam define what we should dis?
Quote from: Solmyr on July 29, 2024, 03:58:50 AMQuote from: Tamas on July 28, 2024, 07:51:51 PMStill though when dissing religions (of which I am a big fan of) the organisers should ask themselves: "would I dare do this with Islam?" if the answer to that is no, then maybe don't do it to others either.
Why not? Does Islam define what we should dis?
Because if Islam isn't getting mocked out of fear of looking racist and being beheaded for your troubles but other religions do get mocked, ultimately that creates / has created an environment where the only true religion in the old (and bad) sense of being protected by taboos (ie being sacred), is Islam.
Quote from: Tamas on July 29, 2024, 04:09:58 AMQuote from: Solmyr on July 29, 2024, 03:58:50 AMQuote from: Tamas on July 28, 2024, 07:51:51 PMStill though when dissing religions (of which I am a big fan of) the organisers should ask themselves: "would I dare do this with Islam?" if the answer to that is no, then maybe don't do it to others either.
Why not? Does Islam define what we should dis?
Because if Islam isn't getting mocked out of fear of looking racist and being beheaded for your troubles but other religions do get mocked, ultimately that creates / has created an environment where the only true religion in the old (and bad) sense of being protected by taboos (ie being sacred), is Islam.
Is it better to kowtow to all religions instead of only some religions?
Quote from: Tamas on July 29, 2024, 04:09:58 AMQuote from: Solmyr on July 29, 2024, 03:58:50 AMQuote from: Tamas on July 28, 2024, 07:51:51 PMStill though when dissing religions (of which I am a big fan of) the organisers should ask themselves: "would I dare do this with Islam?" if the answer to that is no, then maybe don't do it to others either.
Why not? Does Islam define what we should dis?
Because if Islam isn't getting mocked out of fear of looking racist and being beheaded for your troubles but other religions do get mocked, ultimately that creates / has created an environment where the only true religion in the old (and bad) sense of being protected by taboos (ie being sacred), is Islam.
:wacko:
I didn't get any Last Supper vibes from that scene. After rewatching, I still don't. It's clearly a Dionysian banquet which, other than having people at a table, looks nothing like Da Vinci's composition.
Quote from: garbon on July 26, 2024, 03:41:14 PMQuote from: Syt on July 26, 2024, 03:19:23 PMI saw that the surfing competitions are being held not in Paris exactly (which makes sense) ... but French Polynesia :lol:
"Fuck those guys, we want them as far from the Games as possible!"
Better waves, darling.
The Atlantic around Lacanau (not far from Bordeaux), not the Med obviously, would have been fine as well. Political gesture for French Polynesia, I would say.
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 27, 2024, 07:38:35 AMIncidentally for all I wasn't convinced by the first couple of hours jumping down the Seine, the last ten minutes of the Olympic flame and Celine Dion were incredible. Rewatched a lot of times - and particularly given what she's been through with her health, just an amazing performance from Dion.
I liked the Gojira act though I did not lose my head over it, unlike Marie-Antoinette.
Quote from: Tamas on July 28, 2024, 07:51:51 PMStill though when dissing religions (of which I am a big fan of) the organisers should ask themselves: "would I dare do this with Islam?" if the answer to that is no, then maybe don't do it to others either.
Even the islamo-leftist Mélenchon acknowledged that, unlike the rest of his party
Quote from: HVC on July 28, 2024, 06:59:44 PMJust found out breakdancing is an Olympics sport now :lmfao:
And they took out karate (!) to make room for it. Karate will be back in L.A, and breakdance will be out. :D
Quote from: garbon on July 29, 2024, 04:12:11 AMQuote from: Tamas on July 29, 2024, 04:09:58 AMQuote from: Solmyr on July 29, 2024, 03:58:50 AMQuote from: Tamas on July 28, 2024, 07:51:51 PMStill though when dissing religions (of which I am a big fan of) the organisers should ask themselves: "would I dare do this with Islam?" if the answer to that is no, then maybe don't do it to others either.
Why not? Does Islam define what we should dis?
Because if Islam isn't getting mocked out of fear of looking racist and being beheaded for your troubles but other religions do get mocked, ultimately that creates / has created an environment where the only true religion in the old (and bad) sense of being protected by taboos (ie being sacred), is Islam.
:wacko:
What is so crazy about what he said?
Guess the opening wasn't that impressive live (https://www.instagram.com/reel/C97YqmqNAkg/?igsh=MWxvMXg5dnY4M2pieg==) :lol: . But I'm sure that's true for most olympics.
Quote from: HVC on July 29, 2024, 07:22:29 AMGuess the opening wasn't that impressive live (https://www.instagram.com/reel/C97YqmqNAkg/?igsh=MWxvMXg5dnY4M2pieg==) :lol: . But I'm sure that's true for most olympics.
Yeah they had too much going on in a bunch of locations that in person couldn't have worked like it may do a bit more in a stadium.
Quote from: HVC on July 28, 2024, 06:59:44 PMJust found out breakdancing is an Olympics sport now :lmfao:
That actually makes more sense than something like pistol shooting.
Quote from: grumbler on July 29, 2024, 09:01:09 AMQuote from: HVC on July 28, 2024, 06:59:44 PMJust found out breakdancing is an Olympics sport now :lmfao:
That actually makes more sense than something like pistol shooting.
I find your anti-Americanism disturbing.
Quote from: grumbler on July 29, 2024, 09:01:09 AMQuote from: HVC on July 28, 2024, 06:59:44 PMJust found out breakdancing is an Olympics sport now :lmfao:
That actually makes more sense than something like pistol shooting.
Yeah, the gun stuff should be removed. Darts would be better if we are going down that path.
If we're changing stuff to then the horses should get the medals at equestrian events.
Quote from: Josquius on July 29, 2024, 09:42:10 AMQuote from: grumbler on July 29, 2024, 09:01:09 AMQuote from: HVC on July 28, 2024, 06:59:44 PMJust found out breakdancing is an Olympics sport now :lmfao:
That actually makes more sense than something like pistol shooting.
Yeah, the gun stuff should be removed. Darts would be better if we are going down that path.
Gun stuff all happens on the same day to keep China happy.
Quote from: HVC on July 29, 2024, 10:22:18 AMIf we're changing stuff to then the horses should get the medals at equestrian events.
I would very much approve of this. Though we should add dog agility alongside if we are doing so.
Quote from: Maladict on July 29, 2024, 05:36:22 AMI didn't get any Last Supper vibes from that scene. After rewatching, I still don't. It's clearly a Dionysian banquet which, other than having people at a table, looks nothing like Da Vinci's composition.
I think it only became obviously Dionysian when they unveiled Philippe Katerine as a sparkling smurf. And I'm not sure it that was deliberate or it's just the vibe he brings to everything :lol:
QuoteGuess the opening wasn't that impressive live :lol: . But I'm sure that's true for most olympics.
I don't think it is because you're in a stadium - it's why stadiums exist :lol: (And why I think the bit towards the end that was focused on where the crowd was with the Trocadero was the best bit).
Having moaned about the jumping around places for the opening ceremony though, using the city as the venue for the sports is absolutely fantastic and I hope it's something future games pick up on. Some of the settings are stunning.
Quote from: HVC on July 28, 2024, 06:59:44 PMJust found out breakdancing is an Olympics sport now :lmfao:
When I was last in Toronto, I saw a breakdancing student group (team?) practicing at U of T. So it must be making a comeback.
My understanding, though, is it's become lame. The dancers are individual athletes judged on their own merits, rather than being in "Gangs" that dance off against each other.
I remember Norway bagging a summer olympics gold in something called boar shooting back in 1988. And, there hasn't been a wild boar here for a 1000 years or more.
Soon there will be medals for twerking, gaslighting and insurgency.
My pet peeve are all the "you need to be wealthy to actually play this" sports, like most of the boat stuff.
Quote from: The Brain on July 29, 2024, 09:07:25 AMQuote from: grumbler on July 29, 2024, 09:01:09 AMQuote from: HVC on July 28, 2024, 06:59:44 PMJust found out breakdancing is an Olympics sport now :lmfao:
That actually makes more sense than something like pistol shooting.
I find your anti-Americanism disturbing.
Ironically we aren't that great at shooting events.
Quote from: celedhring on July 29, 2024, 05:25:36 PMMy pet peeve are all the "you need to be wealthy to actually play this" sports, like most of the boat stuff.
We scored medals with our king in the sailing competitions in 1968. :uffda: :yeah:
Sailing was pretty much an obligatory thing to learn in Norway. Even I from the inland had to endure sailing school.
"So we don't have motor boats anymore?". Right.
I think the Olympics are boring. Pure and simple.
Quote from: celedhring on July 29, 2024, 05:25:36 PMMy pet peeve are all the "you need to be wealthy to actually play this" sports, like most of the boat stuff.
You do not need to be wealthy to be a windsurfer or race any of the dinghies or skiffs in the olympics (49ers, 470s, Nacras etc).
It'll cost me around CDN$600/year to race several of those by joining a local club, plus maybe spend CDN$300-$400 on gear as a one time cost.
I mean, yeah if you're going to regattas all the time across the continent and training intensely then it's a commitment that requires time (and therefore money), but sailing those types of boats is actually pretty accessible if you're interested (at least in the places I'm familiar with). You don't have to own the boats to race them, and most people don't.
Quote from: celedhring on July 29, 2024, 05:25:36 PMMy pet peeve are all the "you need to be wealthy to actually play this" sports, like most of the boat stuff.
That disqualifies like half the events :lol: ain't cheap having a kid with Olympic ambitions.
Quote from: Norgy on July 29, 2024, 06:10:22 PMQuote from: celedhring on July 29, 2024, 05:25:36 PMMy pet peeve are all the "you need to be wealthy to actually play this" sports, like most of the boat stuff.
We scored medals with our king in the sailing competitions in 1968. :uffda: :yeah:
Sailing was pretty much an obligatory thing to learn in Norway. Even I from the inland had to endure sailing school.
"So we don't have motor boats anymore?". Right.
I think the Olympics are boring. Pure and simple.
I love the Olympics, but then I love all sports.
Was watching a bit of the women's basketball Germany v Belgium game yesterday on the German channel. The female commentator was, I think, a former athlete and did good play by play with some background info. Her male counterpart was explaining the basics of basketball like you would to a child. I mean, I guess it makes sense to go a bit more basic for the Olympics where you'll have people not familiar with some sports tune in. But when he explains how the sport was invented in Canada with peach crates, or what a three-pointer is, or how free throws work and hyping up, "Oh, it's so far from the basket, imagine being [insert random distance example] away and having to hit this small target!" I mean ... come on. :lol:
You'd think basketball in Germany would be known enough not to need this. I wonder if they do it for football. Or the 100 metres.
"When you hear the gun the men all have to run very very fast for about the length of 55 VW beatles."
Quote from: Josquius on July 30, 2024, 12:44:48 AMYou'd think basketball in Germany would be known enough not to need this. I wonder if they do it for football. Or the 100 metres.
"When you hear the gun the men all have to run very very fast for about the length of 55 VW beatles."
That's what surprised me. Basketball is not exactly an exotic sport in Germany. It's different if you were to explain, say, the scoring system in Judo or something.
Quote from: Syt on July 30, 2024, 12:40:24 AMWas watching a bit of the women's basketball Germany v Belgium game yesterday on the German channel. The female commentator was, I think, a former athlete and did good play by play with some background info. Her male counterpart was explaining the basics of basketball like you would to a child. I mean, I guess it makes sense to go a bit more basic for the Olympics where you'll have people not familiar with some sports tune in. But when he explains how the sport was invented in Canada with peach crates, or what a three-pointer is, or how free throws work and hyping up, "Oh, it's so far from the basket, imagine being [insert random distance example] away and having to hit this small target!" I mean ... come on. :lol:
By invented in Canada do you mean in Massachusetts by a Canadian? :yeahright:
Well, the guy said "in Canada." -_-
Quote from: Syt on July 30, 2024, 02:35:26 AMWell, the guy said "in Canada." -_-
I've been to the basketball hall of fame in Springfield, Mass more times than I can care to count. -_-
1s3s5b21aafd1.jpeg
It turns out his first name....
Julius.
Those parents didn't cower from the unfortunate surname. They had ambition.
Quote from: Syt on July 30, 2024, 12:55:26 AMQuote from: Josquius on July 30, 2024, 12:44:48 AMYou'd think basketball in Germany would be known enough not to need this. I wonder if they do it for football. Or the 100 metres.
"When you hear the gun the men all have to run very very fast for about the length of 55 VW beatles."
That's what surprised me. Basketball is not exactly an exotic sport in Germany. It's different if you were to explain, say, the scoring system in Judo or something.
Then don't go to the stadia for the Olympic football tournament.
Before the game starts, they explain the basics in very simple words as if somebody had never played or seen football. :P
Biles- Wow
Quote from: crazy canuck on July 30, 2024, 01:39:23 PMBiles- Wow
Yeah - also gymnastics is the sport where I am most just in awe of the athletes.
Also very much enjoying the tennis this evening (in Murray's swansong).
Turkish guy winning silver without using special glasses or ear protectors that most competitors wear.
(https://i.imgur.com/70lloAl.png)
(Bonus points for Mikec v Dikec)
Hi.
Enjoying the Canadian chicks' footy story. They won their first two games, then lost the results of those victories because of drone spying of enemies closed practices. Heads suspended, big fine from FIFA .. then they beat Columbia and based on a single official victory, moved out of their group and into the playdowns anyway. They face Germany on Saturday in the quarterfinal.
Should be intense. Germany would have been expecting to face a more normal lower seed. Canada squad has a lot of motivation.
Sask!!!! :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Yeah, the Germans have got to be feeling like they got the short end of that deal.
Quote from: saskganesh on August 01, 2024, 03:10:39 PMHi.
Enjoying the Canadian chicks' footy story. They won their first two games, then lost the results of those victories because of drone spying of enemies closed practices. Heads suspended, big fine from FIFA .. then they beat Columbia and based on a single official victory, moved out of their group and into the playdowns anyway. They face Germany on Saturday in the quarterfinal.
Should be intense. Germany would have been expecting to face a more normal lower seed. Canada squad has a lot of motivation.
Holy Shit a Sasks post!
Welcome back dude. Hope you stick around a bit.
Quote from: Valmy on July 28, 2024, 06:58:23 PMI don't think they intended to insult anyone. It is just very hard to do anything in the age of social media and not have a reaction of outrage from somebody.
I went back in this thread and realized I never commented on the opening ceremonies.
First of all - the idea that it wasn't intended as a Last Supper parody is laughable. Obviously it was.
Second - yes a lot of right-wing trolls were just looking for something to be offended by.
Third - no, they never would have done anything like this for Islam.
Fourth - and my main point - it's just so tired and lazy. I mean making a mockery of The Last Supper with drag queens would have been edgy in the 1980s, might have got you prosecuted for blasphemy in the 1960s (not up on French blasphemy laws from the 1960s), but in 2024 I feel like the only ones who would get seriously offended (not the online trolls) would be your great-grandmother.
I don't think anyone has ever beat the 2012 London opening ceremony, with Rowan Atkinson / James Bond and Her Majesty being involved. And that includes beating the 2010 Vancouver games with Wayne Gretzky in the back of a truck in the rain for some inexplicable reason.
Quote from: Syt on August 01, 2024, 03:00:27 PMTurkish guy winning silver without using special glasses or ear protectors that most competitors wear.
(https://i.imgur.com/70lloAl.png)
(Bonus points for Mikec v Dikec)
I smell a remake of Taken.
Also on Biles just heard that she's the oldest all round gold medalist in 72 years - at the age of 27 :blink:
Don't think I'd ever realised quite how short a gymnast's elite competitive time frame is.
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 01, 2024, 04:17:21 PMAlso on Biles just heard that she's the oldest all round gold medalist in 72 years - at the age of 27 :blink:
Don't think I'd ever realised quite how short a gymnast's elite competitive time frame is.
One of the remarkable things about her is she is responsible for older gymnasts competing, simply because more strength is now required to perform the skill elements she created in the sport.
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 01, 2024, 04:17:21 PMAlso on Biles just heard that she's the oldest all round gold medalist in 72 years - at the age of 27 :blink:
Don't think I'd ever realised quite how short a gymnast's elite competitive time frame is.
It used to be the case but less so now. Since the scoring system was changed to have separate difficulty and execution scores, the anorexic pre-pubescent girls have lost their competitive advantage that they enjoyed for many decades. Difficult routines are rewarded a lot more now, and those require strong adult bodies.
I learned the other day quite how tiny Biles is.
Given it seems to be believed gymnastics stunts your growth she must be good to reach such lows.
Quote from: Josquius on August 02, 2024, 12:59:43 AMI learned the other day quite how tiny Biles is.
Given it seems to be believed gymnastics stunts your growth she must be good to reach such lows.
Her husband is large; he plays football for the Chicago Bears; so their couple pictures are like this:
(https://image-cdn.hypb.st/https%3A%2F%2Fhypebeast.com%2Fwp-content%2Fblogs.dir%2F6%2Ffiles%2F2024%2F07%2F31%2Fsimone-biles-husband-paris-olympics-2024-1.jpg?cbr=1&q=90)
Their kids are probably going to rebel and become Certified Professional Accountants or computer scientists.
Well she's getting a caesarian.
How much traction is the boxing match getting in your neck of the woods?
Quote from: HVC on August 02, 2024, 09:53:12 AMHow much traction is the boxing match getting in your neck of the woods?
It's all over Twitter - haven't seen it in the real world yet.
Boxing is a mess with no federation in place, and the IOC saying without one it won't be an Olympic sport in future.
Quote from: HVC on August 02, 2024, 09:53:12 AMHow much traction is the boxing match getting in your neck of the woods?
Being reported but not top story.
It is popping up on social media a lot though. Seems to have the scum absolutely enraged with the old trans panic card... Despite this being a cis woman who failed one chromosome test-something most sport dropped back in the 90s due to being unreliable and a rubbish way to check gender
It was the top Olympic story yesterday in the Guardian and the Times along with Murray's retirement from tennis.
Quote from: Josquius on August 02, 2024, 10:27:55 AMQuote from: HVC on August 02, 2024, 09:53:12 AMHow much traction is the boxing match getting in your neck of the woods?
Being reported but not top story.
It is popping up on social media a lot though. Seems to have the scum absolutely enraged with the old trans panic card... Despite this being a cis woman who failed one chromosome test-something most sport dropped back in the 90s due to being unreliable and a rubbish way to check gender
Yup - count on you to go with the most left-wing response.
So true - a lot of people seem to be saying the Algerian boxer is trans. She is not. She was "assigned female at birth" as the activists like to say.
It's hard to get details but it does seem like the Algerian boxer has DSD - Disorder of Sex Development. It's very much the same story as the South African runner Caster Semenya.
These are complicated questions. In men's sports we don't disqualify someone who has a freakish genetic disorder that makes them better at a sport. But women's sports? The entire concept of a separate women's category means we accept the idea that certain people (let's call them "men") shouldn't compete against women.
So should this Algerian boxer not compete? Again it's complicated. The IBA has disqualified her - but then again the IBA has been disavowed by the IOC. Contrary to Jos chromosomal testing is not "unreliable" and "rubbish" (back in the day they did physical genital exams), but neither is it the be-all and end-all.
So for me - I think what sways me is that this boxer is hardly dominant at the sport, with a very mixed record. I know the Italian boxer complained about how hard she was hit, but given how many other women have beat the Algerian it's hard to say she has an unfair advantage. How can we say this is just completely unfair and the Algerian boxer shouldn't be allowed to compete.
But is this a fair conversation to have? Absolutely. At some point people who are female-presenting but with DSD are so close to men that they should not be allowed to compete against women. Where do you draw that line? That's the tough part though, isn't it.
And we shouldn't allow the fact that some bad-faith actors (on both sides) are trying to use this story to further their own agendas from acknowledging what the controversy is.
No bad faith needed here. The truth serves those who favour rationality and women's rights just fine.
The hate brigade are usually very keen to pretend intersex people don't exist, or are thoroughly irrelevant to the "debate"- despite being the entire reason sports have gender checks in the first place.
So if it turns out she is so... Well they'll just ignore it and find something else. But the evidence is there and supports the balanced position on trans women in sport.
Needs highlighting though - we don't know if she's intersex. Trust you to go to the most right wing response. After years as a boxer (presumably being tested many times) she recently failed a single, known to be unreliable, test.
It was fine in 2021 for the Tokyo Olympics, it is still fine in 2024.
AFAIK, she's not trans, never identified as a male, she's always been a woman. She's stronger than other people but not all, too bad.
What's so problematic about a simple swab test?
Quote from: Grey Fox on August 02, 2024, 11:00:45 AMIt was fine in 2021 for the Tokyo Olympics, it is still fine in 2024.
AFAIK, she's not trans, never identified as a male, she's always been a woman. She's stronger than other people but not all, too bad.
She almost certainly has an XY chromosome but not the receptor that creates external genitalia. It's called 5-ARD.
IOC did test with a cheek swap up until 1996 but discontinued the tests despite more than 90% of female athletes supporting them.
But the IOC doesn't give a fuck about women and is happy to see them smashed up rather than undertake a simple test or have to decide on a policy
Quote from: Gups on August 02, 2024, 01:43:28 PMQuote from: Grey Fox on August 02, 2024, 11:00:45 AMIt was fine in 2021 for the Tokyo Olympics, it is still fine in 2024.
AFAIK, she's not trans, never identified as a male, she's always been a woman. She's stronger than other people but not all, too bad.
She almost certainly has an XY chromosome but not the receptor that creates external genitalia. It's called 5-ARD.
IOC did test with a cheek swap up until 1996 but discontinued the tests despite more than 90% of female athletes supporting them.
But the IOC doesn't give a fuck about women and is happy to see them smashed up rather than undertake a simple test or have to decide on a policy
Yes, nature gave her an advantage against other female boxer. Sorry, not sorry.
Like Phelps with webbed fingers & toes and his lover level of lactid acid production. No one cry fouled back then.
If the Italian women was black instead of white, none of this would have surfaced. Racism wrapped in the arms of (un)righteous anti-transism.
Quote from: Barrister on August 01, 2024, 03:48:52 PMQuote from: Valmy on July 28, 2024, 06:58:23 PMI don't think they intended to insult anyone. It is just very hard to do anything in the age of social media and not have a reaction of outrage from somebody.
I went back in this thread and realized I never commented on the opening ceremonies.
First of all - the idea that it wasn't intended as a Last Supper parody is laughable. Obviously it was.
Second - yes a lot of right-wing trolls were just looking for something to be offended by.
Third - no, they never would have done anything like this for Islam.
Fourth - and my main point - it's just so tired and lazy. I mean making a mockery of The Last Supper with drag queens would have been edgy in the 1980s, might have got you prosecuted for blasphemy in the 1960s (not up on French blasphemy laws from the 1960s), but in 2024 I feel like the only ones who would get seriously offended (not the online trolls) would be your great-grandmother.
I don't think anyone has ever beat the 2012 London opening ceremony, with Rowan Atkinson / James Bond and Her Majesty being involved. And that includes beating the 2010 Vancouver games with Wayne Gretzky in the back of a truck in the rain for some inexplicable reason.
It wasn't about the last supper painting. Not everything lines up with your religion of choice dude. We literally couldn't care less in France.
Fine if that's the policy, that's the policy but the IOC could actually be honest about it.
Edit @GF
Quote from: Grey Fox on August 02, 2024, 02:00:06 PMQuote from: Gups on August 02, 2024, 01:43:28 PMQuote from: Grey Fox on August 02, 2024, 11:00:45 AMIf the Italian women was black instead of white, none of this would have surfaced. Racism wrapped in the arms of (un)righteous anti-transism.
So you actually have to imagine other people's reaction to an event that didn't happen to justify this. Wow.
Quote from: Grey Fox on August 02, 2024, 02:00:06 PMIf the Italian women was black instead of white, none of this would have surfaced. Racism wrapped in the arms of (un)righteous anti-transism.
They're also mad the boxer beat an Asian woman, if that makes you feel any better.
So mentioned before there's always a sport I've never watched before that I get really into at the Olympics. Apparently this year it's BMX - and the GB athlete Beth Shriever is really strong.
Watching that now. It's great fun
I watched it so I didn't have to watch any more swimming.
Although Marchand is very impressive (though yeah too many swimming contests that are basically pretty similar :lol: :ph34r:)...
Quote from: Barrister on August 01, 2024, 03:48:52 PMFourth - and my main point - it's just so tired and lazy. I mean making a mockery of The Last Supper with drag queens would have been edgy in the 1980s, might have got you prosecuted for blasphemy in the 1960s (not up on French blasphemy laws from the 1960s), but in 2024 I feel like the only ones who would get seriously offended (not the online trolls) would be your great-grandmother.
I feel we've slid a long way back towards the blasphemy days.
Quote from: Zoupa on August 02, 2024, 02:02:46 PMQuote from: Barrister on August 01, 2024, 03:48:52 PMQuote from: Valmy on July 28, 2024, 06:58:23 PMI don't think they intended to insult anyone. It is just very hard to do anything in the age of social media and not have a reaction of outrage from somebody.
I went back in this thread and realized I never commented on the opening ceremonies.
First of all - the idea that it wasn't intended as a Last Supper parody is laughable. Obviously it was.
Second - yes a lot of right-wing trolls were just looking for something to be offended by.
Third - no, they never would have done anything like this for Islam.
Fourth - and my main point - it's just so tired and lazy. I mean making a mockery of The Last Supper with drag queens would have been edgy in the 1980s, might have got you prosecuted for blasphemy in the 1960s (not up on French blasphemy laws from the 1960s), but in 2024 I feel like the only ones who would get seriously offended (not the online trolls) would be your great-grandmother.
I don't think anyone has ever beat the 2012 London opening ceremony, with Rowan Atkinson / James Bond and Her Majesty being involved. And that includes beating the 2010 Vancouver games with Wayne Gretzky in the back of a truck in the rain for some inexplicable reason.
It wasn't about the last supper painting. Not everything lines up with your religion of choice dude. We literally couldn't care less in France.
So my main critique was "tired and lazy". So look - it's right there in my text. (Just for you :hug:)
Olympics are interesting. It's obviously about the host country - but how they want to express themselves to the world. So while France is obviously not going to pretend to be Canada, or Afghanistan, in their opening ceremonies, I think they do kind-of care how the world sees it.
So look (this one was just for me) - I've read the comments that it's intended to be a representation of Dionysius. I don't find that very credible The Last Supper is one of the most famous paintings in the world. It was been copied / parodied / homaged countless times. Which on the one hand goes to the point it's certainly not something that should be against the law or prohibited or anything. But on the other hand is clearly the context of the image.
But again I'll go back to "tired and lazy". I mean Madonna courted outrage in the 1980s using religious imagery. Putting a crucifix in a bottle of piss was considered outrageous at the same time. But using drag queens in a representation of "The Last Supper" to me just doesn't seem very edgy or cool anymore. Like I said - it seems like it was designed to offend my grandmother.
Quote from: garbon on August 02, 2024, 02:35:43 PMI watched it so I didn't have to watch any more swimming.
.
Word
During BMX, I didn't know the announcer felt it necessary to wonder about pillow talk between the one racer and her male partner who was also racing.
Quote from: Barrister on August 02, 2024, 02:52:10 PMSo my main critique was "tired and lazy". So look - it's right there in my text. (Just for you :hug:)
Olympics are interesting. It's obviously about the host country - but how they want to express themselves to the world. So while France is obviously not going to pretend to be Canada, or Afghanistan, in their opening ceremonies, I think they do kind-of care how the world sees it.
So look (this one was just for me) - I've read the comments that it's intended to be a representation of Dionysius. I don't find that very credible The Last Supper is one of the most famous paintings in the world. It was been copied / parodied / homaged countless times. Which on the one hand goes to the point it's certainly not something that should be against the law or prohibited or anything. But on the other hand is clearly the context of the image.
But again I'll go back to "tired and lazy". I mean Madonna courted outrage in the 1980s using religious imagery. Putting a crucifix in a bottle of piss was considered outrageous at the same time. But using drag queens in a representation of "The Last Supper" to me just doesn't seem very edgy or cool anymore. Like I said - it seems like it was designed to offend my grandmother.
You have the director of the whole thing saying it was an hommage to greek bachanals of old. The Olympics were greek after all. Also I don't remember a blue naked dude in the last supper...
Right wing folks seem to go out of their way to:
1- make everything about their latest culture war pet-peeve
2- get offended by it
It's not France's fault that none of pearl-clutching crowd seem to have a classical education. :frog:
Quote from: Zoupa on August 02, 2024, 03:12:58 PMQuote from: Barrister on August 02, 2024, 02:52:10 PMSo my main critique was "tired and lazy". So look - it's right there in my text. (Just for you :hug:)
Olympics are interesting. It's obviously about the host country - but how they want to express themselves to the world. So while France is obviously not going to pretend to be Canada, or Afghanistan, in their opening ceremonies, I think they do kind-of care how the world sees it.
So look (this one was just for me) - I've read the comments that it's intended to be a representation of Dionysius. I don't find that very credible The Last Supper is one of the most famous paintings in the world. It was been copied / parodied / homaged countless times. Which on the one hand goes to the point it's certainly not something that should be against the law or prohibited or anything. But on the other hand is clearly the context of the image.
But again I'll go back to "tired and lazy". I mean Madonna courted outrage in the 1980s using religious imagery. Putting a crucifix in a bottle of piss was considered outrageous at the same time. But using drag queens in a representation of "The Last Supper" to me just doesn't seem very edgy or cool anymore. Like I said - it seems like it was designed to offend my grandmother.
You have the director of the whole thing saying it was an hommage to greek bachanals of old. The Olympics were greek after all. Also I don't remember a blue naked dude in the last supper...
Right wing folks seem to go out of their way to:
1- make everything about their latest culture war pet-peeve
2- get offended by it
It's not France's fault that none of pearl-clutching crowd seem to have a classical education. :frog:
Are you aware that the French Catholic Bishops made the following comment:
Quote"The opening ceremony," the French Bishops' Conference acknowledged, "offered the world last wonderful moments of beauty, joy, rich emotions, and universal acclaim," but "included scenes of derision and mockery of Christianity, which we deeply deplore."
https://www.vaticannews.va/en/church/news/2024-07/french-bishops-lament-scenes-mocking-christianity-at-olympics.html
And I've said a few times I wasn't offended, just thought it was "tired and lazy".
You find it tired and lazy even though it doesn't even refer to christianity? Ok. :mellow:
Quote from: Gups on August 02, 2024, 01:43:28 PMQuote from: Grey Fox on August 02, 2024, 11:00:45 AMIt was fine in 2021 for the Tokyo Olympics, it is still fine in 2024.
AFAIK, she's not trans, never identified as a male, she's always been a woman. She's stronger than other people but not all, too bad.
She almost certainly has an XY chromosome but not the receptor that creates external genitalia. It's called 5-ARD.
IOC did test with a cheek swap up until 1996 but discontinued the tests despite more than 90% of female athletes supporting them.
But the IOC doesn't give a fuck about women and is happy to see them smashed up rather than undertake a simple test or have to decide on a policy
These tests were found to be unreliable and the science said this was a pretty poor way to test gender.
As science has progressed so too has how sports do gender tests.
This is about protecting women by not excluding a handful of them for something they have no control over and doesn't even give them an advantage in itself.
So people sitting on one side of a table is automatically a reference to Jesus, essentially? And a reason to be offended if you disapprove of the type of people sitting at the table?
That's a bit of a stretch IMO.
So this intersex boxer allowed to fight among women who made their last opponent give up after 46 seconds. Their next opponent will be a Hungarian lady who is apparently busy posting all kinds of offensive stuff, making sure that all valid concerns get buried about her disgusting bigotry like calling the intersex person a mongrel.
EDIT: I may be wrong it may be randos posting crap on her social media pages.
Quote from: Zoupa on August 02, 2024, 03:35:57 PMYou find it tired and lazy even though it doesn't even refer to christianity? Ok. :mellow:
The French Catholic bishops (and me) thought it referred to Christianity.
My view from over here is the event planners didn't expect the reaction they got and pivoted to "well it has nothing to do with Christianity" afterwards.
Quote from: Barrister on August 02, 2024, 03:39:06 PMQuote from: Zoupa on August 02, 2024, 03:35:57 PMYou find it tired and lazy even though it doesn't even refer to christianity? Ok. :mellow:
The French Catholic bishops (and me) thought it referred to Christianity.
My view from over here is the event planners didn't expect the reaction they got and pivoted to "well it has nothing to do with Christianity" afterwards.
What is it with right-wing folks that give them a propensity for always thinking it's a conspiracy or "they're lying"...
I think you're infinitely more familiar with Da Vinci's painting and are also way more receptive to the culture war BS our southern neighbours revel in. As mentioned previously, the director said it was a greek bacchanal. As mentioned previously, the literal blue painted dude representing Dionysos should have been kind of a huge hint, but you guys see what you wanna see I guess.
Quote from: Jacob on August 02, 2024, 03:37:24 PMSo people sitting on one side of a table is automatically a reference to Jesus, essentially? And a reason to be offended if you disapprove of the type of people sitting at the table?
That's a bit of a stretch IMO.
Christians are very self absorbed.
Quote from: Zoupa on August 02, 2024, 03:52:47 PMQuote from: Barrister on August 02, 2024, 03:39:06 PMQuote from: Zoupa on August 02, 2024, 03:35:57 PMYou find it tired and lazy even though it doesn't even refer to christianity? Ok. :mellow:
The French Catholic bishops (and me) thought it referred to Christianity.
My view from over here is the event planners didn't expect the reaction they got and pivoted to "well it has nothing to do with Christianity" afterwards.
What is it with right-wing folks that give them a propensity for always thinking it's a conspiracy or "they're lying"...
I think you're infinitely more familiar with Da Vinci's painting and are also way more receptive to the culture war BS our southern neighbours revel in. As mentioned previously, the director said it was a greek bacchanal. As mentioned previously, the literal blue painted dude representing Dionysos should have been kind of a huge hint, but you guys see what you wanna see I guess.
So there's a huge difference between "it's a conspiracy!" and "they're lying!".
Conspiracies are almost never true. They're a way for people to ignore the plain truth that's right in front of them. Let's take Trump's assassination attempt from a couple of weeks ago. The facts seem pretty clear - a lone wacko took a shot at Trump and missed. But conspiracy theories immediately sprung up on both the left and the right - either that it was a "deep state" assassination attempt to take out Trump, or that it was a Trump-driven "false flag" to increase sympathy for Trump.
You can almost always discount conspiracies. You can't get a large number of people to hide a conspiracy of any size.
On the other hand though - people lie all the freaking time.
Seems more like a desperate cry for relevance from this French Bishop than any kind of slight towards Christianity.
Quote from: Jacob on August 02, 2024, 03:37:24 PMSo people sitting on one side of a table is automatically a reference to Jesus, essentially? And a reason to be offended if you disapprove of the type of people sitting at the table?
That's a bit of a stretch IMO.
Maybe not all images of people on one side of the table but in the opening tableau, there were twelve people on one side of the table. The two people nearest the central figure were leaning away from her, and she was in a rich dark blue dress with a crown of stars (Mary in Catholic imagery).
I think da Vinci's Last Supper is one of the most iconic images in Western culture - like Michaelangelo's Sistine Chapel. Two fingers almost touching is a reference to that representation of Adam and God even if it's accidental.
It's why I also don't really think the "actually it's referencing this Dutch old master Supper of Dionysus" because Northern European artists toured Italy as part of their education - that is playing (and paganising the Last Supper). But I also think it was both because there were two separate sections. The first was a tableau of twelve which linked into the fashion section I think and then it went back for the performance (with Philippe Katerine). I think it was Last Supper into Dionysus.
These images are so deeply woven into our visual culture there's intertextual plays with them without people even being aware. That's a possibility. But I find the idea that in an events team of well-educated French cultural professionals no-one spotted it a bit implausible.
But personally I'd own it :lol: :ph34r: Some Christians can and will be offended. Who cares. This is France (and I think that sometimes admiring sometimes irreverent attitude to "old masters" is as much a part of French culture as staunch laicite). Plus, as we've seen with Charlie Hebdo and others, French culture is in pretty much every respect offensive to Anglo-American standards and approaches. That in itself is part of the opening ceremony celebrating modern France - we just don't realise because we don't see it often.
And literally who cares if it is a deliberate attempt to offend Christians. Again this is France :lol:
On the bmx. That was cool but wow was it fast.
Seems to be all about how you start as if you get stuck behind the others you're screwed.
I wonder if the French 3 had a plan to work together?
The opening ceremony stuff - art history is not an area I am too into.
But it strikes me with the last supper as a renaissance painting wouldn't it be drawing on Roman and Greek imagery itself?
Did it invent the sitcom everyone sits around one side of the table view or was it influenced by something earlier?
Not representative at all but in the wake of the ceremony all I heard from my francophone circle was it was a funny contrast to go from classy can can dancers to mostly nude smurf god Katerin.
Quote from: Josquius on August 02, 2024, 04:09:19 PMThe opening ceremony stuff - art history is not an area I am too into.
But it strikes me with the last supper as a renaissance painting wouldn't it be drawing on Roman and Greek imagery itself?
Did it invent the sitcom everyone sits around one side of the table view or was it influenced by something earlier?
I'd guess more Christian imagery - but absolutely, it'll be in conversation with similar images from the past.
Da Vinci's has a special place in the Western imagination because it is so iconic (like Michaelangelo's Adam and God) not because it's unique. I think the only thing that's "unique" about it is that it depicts the moment Christ says one of the disciples will betray him - so it's all about the reactions of everyone else. I think that was the uniquely "what was the moment of most drama" innovation from da Vinci :lol:
Okay, if there were thirteen people seated at the table - with six people arrayed on each side of a central character - then yeah I'll agree that it's a reference the Last Supper.
But ya' know, as is well established - a massive part of Western culture and the Western canon is rooted in Christianity. We're allowed to refer to it as it's part of our heritage.
Quote from: Jacob on August 02, 2024, 04:03:20 PMSeems more like a desperate cry for relevance from this French Bishop than any kind of slight towards Christianity.
It wasn't "a'" Catholic Bishop - it was the French Conference of Bishops, in a statement released by the Vatican. And who are the people who actually own the painting (Catholic Church, not French Bishops specifically)
Quote from: Barrister on August 02, 2024, 04:39:44 PMQuote from: Jacob on August 02, 2024, 04:03:20 PMSeems more like a desperate cry for relevance from this French Bishop than any kind of slight towards Christianity.
It wasn't "a'" Catholic Bishop - it was the French Conference of Bishops, in a statement released by the Vatican. And who are the people who actually own the painting (Catholic Church, not French Bishops specifically)
Fair enough (though any IP rights from ownership of the painting would have expired a while ago).
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 02, 2024, 04:05:03 PMQuote from: Jacob on August 02, 2024, 03:37:24 PMSo people sitting on one side of a table is automatically a reference to Jesus, essentially? And a reason to be offended if you disapprove of the type of people sitting at the table?
That's a bit of a stretch IMO.
Maybe not all images of people on one side of the table but in the opening tableau, there were twelve people on one side of the table. The two people nearest the central figure were leaning away from her, and she was in a rich dark blue dress with a crown of stars (Mary in Catholic imagery).
I think da Vinci's Last Supper is one of the most iconic images in Western culture - like Michaelangelo's Sistine Chapel. Two fingers almost touching is a reference to that representation of Adam and God even if it's accidental.
It's why I also don't really think the "actually it's referencing this Dutch old master Supper of Dionysus" because Northern European artists toured Italy as part of their education - that is playing (and paganising the Last Supper). But I also think it was both because there were two separate sections. The first was a tableau of twelve which linked into the fashion section I think and then it went back for the performance (with Philippe Katerine). I think it was Last Supper into Dionysus.
These images are so deeply woven into our visual culture there's intertextual plays with them without people even being aware. That's a possibility. But I find the idea that in an events team of well-educated French cultural professionals no-one spotted it a bit implausible.
But personally I'd own it :lol: :ph34r: Some Christians can and will be offended. Who cares. This is France (and I think that sometimes admiring sometimes irreverent attitude to "old masters" is as much a part of French culture as staunch laicite). Plus, as we've seen with Charlie Hebdo and others, French culture is in pretty much every respect offensive to Anglo-American standards and approaches. That in itself is part of the opening ceremony celebrating modern France - we just don't realise because we don't see it often.
And literally who cares if it is a deliberate attempt to offend Christians. Again this is France :lol:
I'd have more respect for them if the producers went ahead and said Cristian sensibilities. The disingenuous act, again from what it appears to me, is more aggregating.
Quote from: Jacob on August 02, 2024, 04:34:50 PMBut ya' know, as is well established - a massive part of Western culture and the Western canon is rooted in Christianity. We're allowed to refer to it as it's part of our heritage.
Agreed.
But also I think it's fine if the Catholic Bishops of France get offended at the lack of respect being shown to mother church (plus ca change for the past 200 years).
I've got less time for American evangelicals whose idea of Christian art is Christ protecting Trump getting deeply offended. Let's deal with the 500 years of iconoclasm before you're suddenly pearl-clutching about people disrespecting Christian art <_<
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
French people don't care about Christians' feelings, it's true.
You know what we care about even less? Religion itself. Certainly not enough to make it part of our first Olympics in a generation.
Y'all need to grow up.
Quote from: Zoupa on August 02, 2024, 04:52:20 PM:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
French people don't care about Christians' feelings, it's true.
You know what we care about even less? Religion itself. Certainly not enough to make it part of our first Olympics in a generation.
Y'all need to grow up.
So all the points of similarity sheilbh brings up are just coincidental. And France has long passed the tippping point of not caring to being actively antagonistic :D
Quote from: HVC on August 02, 2024, 04:54:12 PMSo all the points of similarity sheilbh brings up are just coincidental. And France has long passed the tippping point of not caring to being actively antagonistic :D
I very much doubt it was "aimed" at Christians (my own read was more it was about a play of the sacral/high end of the fashion section, to the debauched dionysian - very Olympic Games). I just think da Vinci's Last Supper is part of Western iconography which has been played with and subverted and reinterpreted consciously and not for centuries.
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 02, 2024, 04:59:04 PMQuote from: HVC on August 02, 2024, 04:54:12 PMSo all the points of similarity sheilbh brings up are just coincidental. And France has long passed the tippping point of not caring to being actively antagonistic :D
I very much doubt it was "aimed" at Christians (my own read was more it was about a play of the sacral/high end of the fashion section, to the debauched dionysian - very Olympic Games). I just think da Vinci's Last Supper is part of Western iconography which has been played with and subverted and reinterpreted consciously and not for centuries.
Sorry, I didn't mean this particular incident was a purposeful dig. Might be, but I don't know their mind. I think at the very least it was a purposeful allusion which could easily be foreseen as offensive to some. My comment was more towards what I feel is a general feeling in French society. See hijabs.
Quote from: HVC on August 02, 2024, 04:54:12 PMSo all the points of similarity sheilbh brings up are just coincidental. And France has long passed the tippping point of not caring to being actively antagonistic :D
There's nothing inherently antagonistic about referencing something in the Western cultural canon.
Trying very hard to stay civil and silent. <_<
Charlie Hebdo is wondering why and how is anticléricalism is not clear enough for the Anglo world.
Quote from: Sophie Scholl on August 02, 2024, 07:10:23 PMTrying very hard to stay civil and silent. <_<
Don't. Let 'er rip.
Well I mean - I guess it'd be nice if you're civil - but don't be afraid to tell us how you feel. I won't be offended. As long as you're not offended if I call you a, how did I put it, "fucking fuck-faced fuck" as I did to Jacob the other day.
I suspect that having the Catholic church talk trash about something involving trans people and calling it an insult doesn't sit well with Sophie.
Taking something that's intended to be celebratory and inclusive for trans people and calling it juvenile and offensive to people who despise them - and making it all about the feelings of religious people - might feel kind of shitty.
Just a guess though.
Quote from: Jacob on August 02, 2024, 10:45:08 PMI suspect that having the Catholic church talk trash about something involving trans people and calling it an insult doesn't sit well with Sophie.
Taking something that's intended to be celebratory and inclusive for trans people and calling it juvenile and offensive to people who despise them - and making it all about the feelings of religious people - might feel kind of shitty.
Just a guess though.
I would also guess it's something along those lines.
I was just encouraging her to share how she feels - if she feels like it.
Not saying everyone will agree with her, but this is a place for the sharing of opinions,
I haven't seen Christians attacking the use of Imagine in the opening ceremony, a song which is explicitly anti-religion. So it seems to be only about hating teh trans and teh gays.
According to this the "critics" have the wrong painting anyway :
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/article/2024/jul/29/olympic-last-supper-scene-based-painting-greek-gods-art-experts
"Leonardo da Vinci's much-parodied The Last Supper portrays the final meal Jesus is said to have taken with his apostles. However, the creative director of the opening ceremony, Thomas Jolly, denied the scene, titled "Festivity", was based on the painting.
"That wasn't my inspiration," he told BFM TV. "I think it was pretty clear. There's Dionysus who arrives at the table ... Why is he there? Because he's the god of feasting, of wine, and the father of Sequana, the goddess of the River Seine." "
...and, just like there are 12 apostles there are 12 Olympians; the essential similarity then is that there is a dining table in both paintings.
But this is a new line of attack by the right, getting offended on behalf of Christians so they can get at whichever minority group they hate most this week.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=dionysus+painting
If he's talking about this painting I don't see the table, and I don't see everyone facing the same way.
I think that is the Titian painting you are referring to. It is a popular subject :D . The one that is cited in the article is "The Feast of the Gods, painted by the artist Jan van Bijlert".
Which has a table with a white tablecloth and is not actually complete https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Festin_des_dieux
Needs validation as it's just a random thing shared from twitter I saw.
But interesting slant on the Algerian boxer story - apparently all was fine, repeatedly passing these same tests, doing OK but not stellar, until in 2023 at a tournament in Russia she beat a Russian boxer (or was it was due to face one in the quarter finals. I do not recall) and mysteriously failed a gender check.
Fascinating how out of control it seems to be getting on twitter and other loony right spaces. Alongside the Southport fallout it really seems something is shifting dramatically to stir the pot more than usual.
I feel like trampolining gold medalist Bryony Page who wrote her dissertation on the sounds dinosaurs made is really smashing her childhood goals.
I mean, it tracks - everyone knows that Algeria is a notoriously woke country pushing the trans agenda for world domination ... :rolleyes:
JK Rowling posted on the Musker:
Quote"Could any picture sum up our new men's rights movement better? The smirk of a male who knows he's protected by a misogynist sporting establishment enjoying the distress of a woman he's just punched in the head, and whose life's ambition he's just shattered."
So, since she misgendered the lady boxer ... is she saying that she should transition to being male? I thought she was an advocate that people should be identified with the gender they were assigned at birt ...
Unless she's taking a page from 19th century Vienna Mayor Dr. Karl Lueger, a proponent of anti-semitic policies who, when seen sitting in a café with Jews said, "I decide who's Jewish." I guess JKR decides who gets to be male or female now.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on August 03, 2024, 03:55:55 AMAccording to this the "critics" have the wrong painting anyway :
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/article/2024/jul/29/olympic-last-supper-scene-based-painting-greek-gods-art-experts
"Leonardo da Vinci's much-parodied The Last Supper portrays the final meal Jesus is said to have taken with his apostles. However, the creative director of the opening ceremony, Thomas Jolly, denied the scene, titled "Festivity", was based on the painting.
"That wasn't my inspiration," he told BFM TV. "I think it was pretty clear. There's Dionysus who arrives at the table ... Why is he there? Because he's the god of feasting, of wine, and the father of Sequana, the goddess of the River Seine." "
...and, just like there are 12 apostles there are 12 Olympians; the essential similarity then is that there is a dining table in both paintings.
But this is a new line of attack by the right, getting offended on behalf of Christians so they can get at whichever minority group they hate most this week.
The art director doesn't say he was influenced by any painting at all. That's someone else who is not involved with the ceremony and is rather unhelpfully pointing to a different painting.
Dionysus being the father of Sequana does make a lot of sense, I didn't know that.
Fair enough.
Quote from: Syt on August 03, 2024, 06:02:37 AMI mean, it tracks - everyone knows that Algeria is a notoriously woke country pushing the trans agenda for world domination ... :rolleyes:
JK Rowling posted on the Musker:
Quote"Could any picture sum up our new men's rights movement better? The smirk of a male who knows he's protected by a misogynist sporting establishment enjoying the distress of a woman he's just punched in the head, and whose life's ambition he's just shattered."
So, since she misgendered the lady boxer ... is she saying that she should transition to being male? I thought she was an advocate that people should be identified with the gender they were assigned at birt ...
Unless she's taking a page from 19th century Vienna Mayor Dr. Karl Lueger, a proponent of anti-semitic policies who, when seen sitting in a café with Jews said, "I decide who's Jewish." I guess JKR decides who gets to be male or female now.
Yeah I used to defend her because I think her basic concern was/is valid but she really jumped the gun with this one.
The Algerian isn't a transgendered person so has zero relevance on that topic.
Having said that though, watching their match against the Italian lady... it just doesn't feel right.
The thing is, though, that certain genetic make-ups will provide certain advantages in certain sports, and I would consider this one such case. Training etc. are important, but sometimes genetics play a role - think swimmers with advantageous proportions of body/limb, size of hands etc. Or that people who are 5 feet tall will be very unlikely to have a stellar career in the NBA.
Also, I find some of the knee-jerk reactions online ("You can see that she's a man!") incredibly short-sighted. There's women who look very (what's often regarded as) masculine and men who look very (what's often considered) feminine. Always been the case, and will always be the case. And it would be IMHO dumb to e.g. ban a woman form using a lady's restroom because someone thinks she looks "too male."
The "just look! She's a man!" reactions are both stupid and funny.
I somehow doubt they apply the same logic for trans people who pass really well.
It's like they're applying "would you shag her?" as a rule for athletic qualification.
On the genetic advantages point... I suppose this only goes so far though. I recall hearing there's about a dozen African women banned from the Olympics for failing testosterone based gender tests despite being cis.
You obviously do need some scientifically based definition of who qualifies as a woman but when cisgender women are being disqualified just for being who they naturally are this sits very uneasy with me.
In actual Olympics... Quite some lovely symmetry watching this evening. First France vs Japan in the most Japanese sport of judo then france vs Japan in the most French sport of fencing.
Which is something I've been thinking about lately. It's interesting how very western biased (plus Japan and I thinkkkk one Korean martial art maybe? Or not anymore?) the setup is. We need more world sports. Like that polo with the sheep's head one. And kite fighting.
Quote from: Syt on August 03, 2024, 12:12:33 PMThe thing is, though, that certain genetic make-ups will provide certain advantages in certain sports, and I would consider this one such case. Training etc. are important, but sometimes genetics play a role - think swimmers with advantageous proportions of body/limb, size of hands etc. Or that people who are 5 feet tall will be very unlikely to have a stellar career in the NBA.
Also, I find some of the knee-jerk reactions online ("You can see that she's a man!") incredibly short-sighted. There's women who look very (what's often regarded as) masculine and men who look very (what's often considered) feminine. Always been the case, and will always be the case. And it would be IMHO dumb to e.g. ban a woman form using a lady's restroom because someone thinks she looks "too male."
The issue here is that all women's sports by the very design declare certain genetic make-ups to be unfair advantage. That very design rules about half the population ineligible to compete in those sports because they're considered to have unfair genetic advantage. On that basis, I don't see how the argument about "unfair genetical advantage is just tough luck for other competitors" is ever applicable to this discussion; in women's sports, it's often tough luck for the competitor for being genetically advantaged out of class eligibility.
So who decides what are acceptable parameters for being a woman? And is it a justifiable outcome that women are excluded because they do not conform to the definition of "woman" as per the sport they wish to compete in (keeping in mind that they will very likely be unable to compete with men in this sport, de facto excluding them from all competition).
Quote from: Syt on August 03, 2024, 12:35:35 PMSo who decides what are acceptable parameters for being a woman?
I don't know, but somebody has to. If I want to go and compete in woman's soccer, somebody has to decide and declare that I'm not eligible for it.
QuoteAnd is it a justifiable outcome that women are excluded because they do not conform to the definition of "woman" as per the sport they wish to compete in (keeping in mind that they will very likely be unable to compete with men in this sport, de facto excluding them from all competition).
Lots of people can't de facto compete in either category. I personally can't compete in woman's soccer because I assume that someone at some point will rule that I'm not eligible. I can't compete in man's soccer because my genetic gifts for mathematics and data science do not transfer to soccer.
The difference between men's and women's soccer, though, is that from one you're excluded because you are not a "woman" under the stipulation of the sport's rules. You are free to join men's soccer if you so wish and try to compete. You're not excluded a priori.
In the case who are not woman enough for their sport's rules - where does it make sense to draw the line? I assume that in case of hormones and similar there might be reference to a certain "baseline" of what is considered "average" for women (or women competing in certain sports), but again: a line will be drawn that will exclude otherwise eligible people who would like to exclude. And drawing that line will always have edge cases that will be "unfair, " regardless if you draw the line to exclude 0.01%, 1% or 10% of all women, because they have an "unfair advantage."
Quote from: DGuller on August 03, 2024, 12:30:08 PMQuote from: Syt on August 03, 2024, 12:12:33 PMThe thing is, though, that certain genetic make-ups will provide certain advantages in certain sports, and I would consider this one such case. Training etc. are important, but sometimes genetics play a role - think swimmers with advantageous proportions of body/limb, size of hands etc. Or that people who are 5 feet tall will be very unlikely to have a stellar career in the NBA.
Also, I find some of the knee-jerk reactions online ("You can see that she's a man!") incredibly short-sighted. There's women who look very (what's often regarded as) masculine and men who look very (what's often considered) feminine. Always been the case, and will always be the case. And it would be IMHO dumb to e.g. ban a woman form using a lady's restroom because someone thinks she looks "too male."
The issue here is that all women's sports by the very design declare certain genetic make-ups to be unfair advantage. That very design rules about half the population ineligible to compete in those sports because they're considered to have unfair genetic advantage. On that basis, I don't see how the argument about "unfair genetical advantage is just tough luck for other competitors" is ever applicable to this discussion; in women's sports, it's often tough luck for the competitor for being genetically advantaged out of class eligibility.
It's not only applicable to the conversation, it's the very core of it.
How do we define woman (and man), and who do is permitted to compete in what categories? In women sports, whoever has the best genetic and hormonal profile that still classified as "female" (and thus allowed to compete) has an advantage.
The controversy regarding Imane Khelif is whether her specific genetic and hormonal situation should exclude her from the women category or not. If she's included, the fact that she has higher levels of testosterone than most other competitors gives her an advantage; if she's excluded, the advantage goes to whatever other athlete has higher than average levels of testosterone but does not get excluded from the category of "woman".
This plays into a larger debate we are having these days about gender and identity, and it seems to me that some folks (not referring to Languish here) are making arguments regarding Khelif that are not consistent with their arguments in the larger gender and identity debate.
Quote from: DGuller on August 03, 2024, 12:41:23 PMI don't know, but somebody has to. If I want to go and compete in woman's soccer, somebody has to decide and declare that I'm not eligible for it.
For sure, and when it comes to Imane Khelif someone did. And now others are complaining about that decision.
Quote from: Syt on August 03, 2024, 12:48:11 PMThe difference between men's and women's soccer, though, is that from one you're excluded because you are not a "woman" under the stipulation of the sport's rules. You are free to join men's soccer if you so wish and try to compete. You're not excluded a priori.
In the case who are not woman enough for their sport's rules - where does it make sense to draw the line? I assume that in case of hormones and similar there might be reference to a certain "baseline" of what is considered "average" for women (or women competing in certain sports), but again: a line will be drawn that will exclude otherwise eligible people who would like to exclude. And drawing that line will always have edge cases that will be "unfair, " regardless if you draw the line to exclude 0.01%, 1% or 10% of all women, because they have an "unfair advantage."
I don't think there any "men's" sports left, at least none that I'm aware of. What we call men's sports are really open categories, where women are eligible if they can make it (but realistically only in very few sports is that ever a possibility at the highest levels).
Women who are judged ineligible to compete in women's sports are not a priori ineligible to compete in any category. As you said previously, de facto they're unlikely to be competitive in open categories, because while they're too strong for women category they're probably too weak for open category. However, the point I was trying to make is that de facto a lot of people are not eligible to compete in categories they're nominally eligible for, because they happen to not be gifted by the standards of their category.
Quote from: Jacob on August 03, 2024, 12:53:27 PMQuote from: DGuller on August 03, 2024, 12:41:23 PMI don't know, but somebody has to. If I want to go and compete in woman's soccer, somebody has to decide and declare that I'm not eligible for it.
For sure, and when it comes to Imane Khelif someone did. And now others are complaining about that decision.
Are you implying that they're not entitled to complain?
Quote from: DGuller on August 03, 2024, 12:55:47 PMAre you implying that they're not entitled to complain?
No. It's an observation. Entitled or not entitled does not enter into it.
Let's not forget. The evidence she even is intersex is spurious.
She failed one test in her entire career.
A test held last year in famously sporting and non corrupt Russia, whose boxing union has since been expelled for various issues.
Yeah, from what I'm reading Imane Khelif is in fact a cis woman by basically any standard (other than "I've looked at her and decided she's not a woman"), and she is being victimized by weaponized transphobia.
If you exclude women because they have extremely rare genetic advantages, but only apply it to cases where sex is in some way the issue, then it's very hard to shake the suspicion that it in fact isn't about the advantage but about you not considering some women to be real women.
We allow 7 ft women to compete in women's basketball, even though they have a great and ultra rare genetic advantage. I'm not even aware of any discussions about this being a problem.
Quote from: Jacob on August 03, 2024, 12:53:27 PMQuote from: DGuller on August 03, 2024, 12:41:23 PMI don't know, but somebody has to. If I want to go and compete in woman's soccer, somebody has to decide and declare that I'm not eligible for it.
For sure, and when it comes to Imane Khelif someone did. And now others are complaining about that decision.
That
Quote from: DGuller on August 03, 2024, 12:55:47 PMQuote from: Jacob on August 03, 2024, 12:53:27 PMQuote from: DGuller on August 03, 2024, 12:41:23 PMI don't know, but somebody has to. If I want to go and compete in woman's soccer, somebody has to decide and declare that I'm not eligible for it.
For sure, and when it comes to Imane Khelif someone did. And now others are complaining about that decision.
Are you implying that they're not entitled to complain?
He is responding to your suggestion that somebody has to decide who fits within the parameters of the rules set by the sport. That was done.
Now you're asking a separate question which is whether the rules of the sport are appropriate or whether the decision fell within the rules of the sport.
The only evidence for making a complaint are those later points is based on misinformation.
For me it comes down to whether the having male chromosome thing is true or not.
Other than that yes it's about her being unfortunate enough to have looks not compatible with people's idea of a woman. I mean this is her after her 3 rounds victory against the Hungarian:
(https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/619381eb90f8e2477b062a14a52b58d8aba6411a/0_0_5689_3414/master/5689.jpg?width=465&dpr=2&s=none)
https://apnews.com/article/olympics-2024-khelif-russia-boxing-b53b1edda21139d14a572bd35ca440e6
QuoteBanned governing body that's fueling outcry on Olympic boxers has Russian ties and troubled history
VILLEPINTE, France (AP) — Nearly 17 months ago in New Delhi, Algerian boxer Imane Khelif was disqualified from the International Boxing Association's world championships three days after she won an early-round bout with Azalia Amineva, a previously unbeaten Russian prospect.
The disqualification meant Amineva's official record was perfect again.
The IBA said Khelif and fellow boxer Lin Yu-ting of Taiwan had failed "to meet the required necessary eligibility criteria and were found to have competitive advantages over other female competitors." The governing body claimed the fighters had failed unspecified eligibility tests — the same tests that ignited a massive controversy about gender regulations and perceptions in sports this week as Khelif and Lin compete at the Paris Olympics.
The IBA's decision last year — and its curious timing, particularly related to Amineva's loss to Khelif — would have raised warning signs around the sports world if more people cared about amateur boxing, or even knew more about the IBA under president Umar Kremlev of Russia.
The entire boxing world has already learned to expect almost anything from the Russian-dominated governing body that was given the unprecedented punishment of being permanently banned from the Olympics (https://apnews.com/article/boxing-olympics-ioc-iba-paris-1338983c3c1d0ccef6936f8a3fe34154) last year. In fact, it hasn't run an Olympic boxing tournament since the Rio de Janeiro Games in 2016.
The non-boxing world largely doesn't know, however, about the IBA's decades of troubled governance and longstanding accusations of a thorough lack of normal transparency in nearly every aspect of its dealings, particularly in recent years. Many people took the IBA's proclamations about Khelif and Lin at face value while dragging the eligibility dispute into wider clashes about gender identity.
The International Olympic Committee has decades of mostly bad history with the beleaguered governing body previously known for decades as AIBA, and it has exasperatedly begged non-boxing people to pay attention to the sole source of the allegations against Khelif and Lin.
"These two athletes were the victims of a sudden and arbitrary decision by the IBA," IOC spokesman Mark Adams said this week. "Such an approach is contrary to good governance."
On Saturday, IOC President Thomas Bach said it was "totally unacceptable" the two boxers have faced what he called hate speech in a "politically motivated" uproar.
The IOC had stuck with the previous incarnation of boxing's governing body through decades of judging scandals (https://apnews.com/several-unfit-judges-referees-knocked-out-of-olympic-boxing-dcaaefc447f44a5692a88472ae0df1c0), bizarre leadership decisions (https://apnews.com/several-unfit-judges-referees-knocked-out-of-olympic-boxing-dcaaefc447f44a5692a88472ae0df1c0) and innumerable financial misdeeds (https://apnews.com/timeline-of-boxing-body-aibas-problems-17316af736b5447a8b40406a19a8e93b) while it presided over Olympic boxing tournaments.
Not until 2019, nearly two years after the organization elected a president with what U.S. officials call deep ties to Russian organized crime and heroin trafficking, did the IOC finally banish the perpetually troubled group.
The most powerful organization in amateur boxing for decades is now governing a reduced roster of national federations while keeping up its fight with the IOC. Nearly three dozen nations, including nearly all of the prominent Western boxing teams, have taken the extraordinary step of leaving the IBA to form World Boxing, a new governing body, in a final attempt to keep boxing in the 2028 Olympics.
AIBA's final Olympic downfall was triggered about six years ago when it elected president Gafur Rakhimov, an Uzbek businessman described by the U.S. Treasury Department as an organized crime boss. Rakhimov, who denies those allegations, finally resigned in July 2019, a month after the IOC suspended ties.
The group changed its name and elected Kremlev, a Russian boxing functionary and an acquaintance of Russian President Vladimir Putin. That only made things worse between the IBA and the sections of the international boxing community not beholden to the body's financial support, unlike many smaller boxing nations.
Kremlev introduced Russian state-controlled Gazprom as its biggest sponsor and moved much of the IBA's operations to Russia after he took over in late 2020. He also fought off a challenge to his leadership two years ago by essentially scrapping an election (https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-winter-olympics-sports-armenia-756cb177a782d5e7dd1834dc5d15c535) in highly dubious fashion.
None of this sat well with the IOC — particularly after the Olympic organization advised its governing bodies to prevent Russian athletes from competing with their flags and anthems after Putin's forces invaded Ukraine in 2022. The IBA disregarded that guidance at its world championships the following year.
The IOC permanently stripped the IBA's Olympic credentials and ran the past two Olympic boxing tournaments with a task force.
Former governing body president Wu Ching-kuo, the last to take part in an Olympics, made moderate progress in improving AIBA's reputation until his leadership group decided it would attempt to control boxing in all of its forms — including the professional game. The ill-conceived plan to use the chance for Olympic medals as a cudgel to sign fighters to pro contracts went nowhere, and Wu was eventually drummed out of AIBA himself amid severe financial woes.
But Kremlev has seized his opportunity this summer to call into question the IOC's governance over the Paris boxing tournament while stoking the wider outcry raised around Khelif and Lin.
Kremlev also has made additional allegations about the gender of both fighters without providing proof, and people across the world have accepted his word. That's unbelievably frustrating to veteran boxing executives like Boris Van Der Vorst, the Dutch businessman leading World Boxing. Van Der Vorst ran for the presidency of the IBA, only for his candidacy to be inexplicably declared invalid.
People have misidentified Khelif and Lin as men or transgender.
"It's not very respectful for the boxers who are competing here, to Chinese Taipei and Algeria, to speak about them in these terms. That's what I'm trying to stress," Van Der Vorst told The Associated Press.
So much is unclear about the IBA's decision to ban Khelif and Lin last year, particularly since both had competed in IBA events for years without problems.
It's even possible the decision was actually made according to the results of legitimate tests conducted over two years, as the IBA says — but the IBA has refused to officially say what, when or where these tests were administered, who evaluated them, or what the results meant.
The national boxing federations of Algeria and Taiwan are still members of the IBA, which is making a last-ditch appeal to the Swiss Federal Tribunal against its Olympic banishment.
The IOC has said boxing will be dropped from the 2028 Los Angeles Olympics unless the sport lines up behind a new governing body, and World Boxing is the only obvious alternative.
Until then, Kremlev isn't attempting to make nice with the IOC. He announced plans last month to pay more than $3.1 million to Olympic medalists and coaches, even though IBA has no connection to many of the nations that will win in Paris.
This week, he released a series of English-subtitled videos on social media packed with insults, saying the Olympics "burns from pure devilry" and calling Bach "evil" and urging him to "resign urgently." Kremlev has ended some of them by saying he's sending Bach diapers so he doesn't soil himself, then punching the camera.
Now, IOC calling out mismanagement/corruption in other sporting bodies - pot, kettle, RGB #000000 and all that.
But it goes to show how politically charged the topic of transgender has become when the claim from one highly questionable source who provides no proof beyond "trust me, bro" can have such a wide reach and effect.
I don't want to sound too tin foil hatty but this is all getting a huge whiff of being pre meditated. Outside of this story fake news attacks seem to be really spiking lately.
Fixing the Russian boxers record is
something they'd want to do but I wonder if more so they chose this victim because of being from a African Muslim country and her looks-a Taiwanese boxer being chosen too... There's political gain to be had there.
The IOC repeatedly said that boxing needs a federation or boxing will be out of the Olympics before these games began.
Freaking Djokovic man, what a beast. He's got it all now.
Djokovic was unreal. He's had a terrible year by his standards. Man broke down and cried after the match. :cry:
It strikes me. It's really weird boxing et al have weight classes.
Should not basketball have height classes?
Also noticed in boxing both losing semi finalists get bronze whilst in most sports they would have a third place match - one that means a lot more than in the world cup.
The inconsistency is weird. Must say I like boxings way here.
I've always thought it's ridiculous to have weight classes.
Isn't it basically only in fighting sports? Which makes sense to me not just to equalise competition but also the risk - plus certainly in boxing it leads to different types of fighting.
But I remember growing up watching Prince Naseem and my dad talking endlessly about Barry McGuigan who were not heavyweights. So we watched the big heavyweight matches but they weren't just the "peak".
On Djokovic - exceptional. The last of them but an incredible generation of men's tennis champions.
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 04, 2024, 01:44:09 PMIsn't it basically only in fighting sports?
Rowing, too. But the lightweight events are being phased out in the Olympics, the IOC doesn't seem to care all that much about the sport.
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 04, 2024, 01:44:09 PMIsn't it basically only in fighting sports? Which makes sense to me not just to equalise competition but also the risk - plus certainly in boxing it leads to different types of fighting.
But I remember growing up watching Prince Naseem and my dad talking endlessly about Barry McGuigan who were not heavyweights. So we watched the big heavyweight matches but they weren't just the "peak".
On Djokovic - exceptional. The last of them but an incredible generation of men's tennis champions.
I get why they do it. Sure. Equalises competition.
But by the same logic couldn't the same argument be made for my example of height categories in basketball or a variety of other controls for some people having natural advantages?
That boxing promoters do a variety sure. OK. The sport isn't the point. They want to sell multiple fights
But the Olympics doing this too...
Competition and risk. A punch from any boxer is serious but even if you're a great bantamweight a punch from a heavyweight is going to be more serious. (I know less about the martial arts sports). A punch from a heavyweight is always serious too - my great-grandfather was the all-Ireland heavyweight champion and I believe, to this day, holds the record for getting knocked out quickest when trying for the world championship :lol: (He very quickly pivoted into GAA coaching after that experience).
I think it's sort of different with team sports - or lots of the do the fastest/furthest/heaviest sports.
I think just seeing heavyweights as having a natural advantage is kind of wrong. The point is the sport is different and bouts are different at the different weights. Wiry quick fighters are different than bigger heavier ones - one isn't better than the other.
I could see a case for weight classes in some other sports rather than the other way round - I feel like gymnastics would be different with weight classes for example.
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 04, 2024, 01:44:09 PMIsn't it basically only in fighting sports? Which makes sense to me not just to equalise competition but also the risk - plus certainly in boxing it leads to different types of fighting.
Powerlifting also has weight classes, though only the unlimited competitions typically get any attention from popular media. It's why most people thing all powerlifters are walking mountains.
You absolutely need weight classes in boxing or you would only get heavyweights able to compete.
Italian Olympian was photographed sleeping in a park and the story became then olympic village is so bad athletes have to sleep outside :D
Quote from: HVC on August 05, 2024, 08:54:54 AMItalian Olympian was photographed sleeping in a park and the story became then olympic village is so bad athletes have to sleep outside :D
I was watching a highlights show last night and they had the Womens' High Jump on, and it looked like the athletes were sleeping in sleeping bags on the floor of the stadium in between jumps. :hmm:
Quote from: HVC on August 05, 2024, 08:54:54 AMItalian Olympian was photographed sleeping in a park and the story became then olympic village is so bad athletes have to sleep outside :D
The Italians have been going off :lol: I think that was Thomas Ceccon who has also complained about the food in the Olympic Village. Italian commentators have said the coffee being served in the media centre is like drinking the Seine :lol:
On the Olympic Village I have seen a huge number of people complaining about the "eco-village" decisions - in particular that the beds made of cardboard are really bad and it is far, far too hot. Not just the Italians either.
The ac thing was so dumb. I mentioned it before the games began. Instead of getting an efficient system of heat pumps they got basically nothing .cold loop flooring. Heated flooring works fine, cold flooring is dumb. So obviously teams bought inefficient portable units (or went off site). Forest for the trees thinking.
I do wonder if this might be a big part of France doing so well - a lot of their athletes are just sleeping at home.
Quote from: Gups on August 05, 2024, 08:43:38 AMYou absolutely need weight classes in boxing or you would only get heavyweights able to compete.
That's the point.
You only get the most suited in other sports.
Quote from: HVC on August 05, 2024, 09:11:33 AMThe ac thing was so dumb. I mentioned it before the games began. Instead of getting an efficient system of heat pumps they got basically nothing .cold loop flooring. Heated flooring works fine, cold flooring is dumb. So obviously teams bought inefficient portable units (or went off site). Forest for the trees thinking.
I think it's a little bit of a European attitude to cooling. Rather than it being necessary, capable of being powered by renewables and linking into a wider system of heat pumps and water heating - it is often just viewed as bad. It's really weird. No-one doubts the necessity of heating but a lot of people really push back on cooling being in anyway potentially necessary. I've mentioned before but guidance in London for new builds - including 20+ floor blocks - which now have high insulation standards are basically that there should almost never be AC allowed in the planning permission.
I think the French response on complaints about the temperature is that athletes should keep the blinds closed all day and keep the windows open at night (but closed during the day).
Window blinds work to bring down temps a couple of degrees. Works good at mid to low 20s. Not high 20s or 30s. Also doesn't work great in small rooms with multiple people.
I'm taking thus oddly personal. I run hot :D
Are they are aware the climate is getting warmer?
Maybe they are counting in the Gulf Stream breaking down and Europe becoming a frozen wasteland.
I'm guessing LA in 2028 will be fully ACed every where?
Quote from: Grey Fox on August 05, 2024, 09:52:36 AMI'm guessing LA in 2028 will be fully ACed every where?
I've never been there but it strikes me as a place with the worst parts of Japan amped up to 10.
I expect air conditioned outdoor arenas.
Quote from: Grey Fox on August 05, 2024, 09:52:36 AMI'm guessing LA in 2028 will be fully ACed every where?
I mean unless they don't mind athletes passing out or getting heat stroke :D
Quote from: Josquius on August 05, 2024, 09:17:46 AMI do wonder if this might be a big part of France doing so well - a lot of their athletes are just sleeping at home.
Quote from: Gups on August 05, 2024, 08:43:38 AMYou absolutely need weight classes in boxing or you would only get heavyweights able to compete.
That's the point.
You only get the most suited in other sports.
I don't know what this means.
Quote from: Josquius on August 05, 2024, 09:57:14 AMQuote from: Grey Fox on August 05, 2024, 09:52:36 AMI'm guessing LA in 2028 will be fully ACed every where?
I've never been there but it strikes me as a place with the worst parts of Japan amped up to 10.
I expect air conditioned outdoor arenas.
When we are ignorant of a topic, we don't have to speak. We can be silent and listen.
Flats in London are going to need AC, probably do already :mad:
But perhaps it is all an evil plot to kill off pensioners and save money :P
Quote from: garbon on August 05, 2024, 10:32:13 AMQuote from: Josquius on August 05, 2024, 09:57:14 AMQuote from: Grey Fox on August 05, 2024, 09:52:36 AMI'm guessing LA in 2028 will be fully ACed every where?
I've never been there but it strikes me as a place with the worst parts of Japan amped up to 10.
I expect air conditioned outdoor arenas.
When we are ignorant of a topic, we don't have to speak. We can be silent and listen.
It's like you've never been on languish before today :D
Quote from: HVC on August 05, 2024, 10:39:02 AMQuote from: garbon on August 05, 2024, 10:32:13 AMQuote from: Josquius on August 05, 2024, 09:57:14 AMQuote from: Grey Fox on August 05, 2024, 09:52:36 AMI'm guessing LA in 2028 will be fully ACed every where?
I've never been there but it strikes me as a place with the worst parts of Japan amped up to 10.
I expect air conditioned outdoor arenas.
When we are ignorant of a topic, we don't have to speak. We can be silent and listen.
It's like you've never been on languish before today :D
Oh I've encountered Jos before.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on August 05, 2024, 10:38:27 AMFlats in London are going to need AC, probably do already :mad:
But perhaps it is all an evil plot to kill off pensioners and save money :P
:hmm:
Quote from: garbon on August 05, 2024, 10:42:34 AMQuote from: HVC on August 05, 2024, 10:39:02 AMQuote from: garbon on August 05, 2024, 10:32:13 AMQuote from: Josquius on August 05, 2024, 09:57:14 AMQuote from: Grey Fox on August 05, 2024, 09:52:36 AMI'm guessing LA in 2028 will be fully ACed every where?
I've never been there but it strikes me as a place with the worst parts of Japan amped up to 10.
I expect air conditioned outdoor arenas.
When we are ignorant of a topic, we don't have to speak. We can be silent and listen.
It's like you've never been on languish before today :D
Oh I've encountered Jos before.
Oh, I meant as a general quality, but point taken.
Quote from: Gups on August 05, 2024, 10:19:10 AMI don't know what this means.
Most sports are dominated by people with a certain body type. Nobody cries foul over most basketball players being 2 metres tall.
Yet with boxing they have categories so it isn't just those actually most likely to win in a fight competing.
Quote from: garbon on August 05, 2024, 10:32:13 AMQuote from: Josquius on August 05, 2024, 09:57:14 AMQuote from: Grey Fox on August 05, 2024, 09:52:36 AMI'm guessing LA in 2028 will be fully ACed every where?
I've never been there but it strikes me as a place with the worst parts of Japan amped up to 10.
I expect air conditioned outdoor arenas.
When we are ignorant of a topic, we don't have to speak. We can be silent and listen.
:lmfao:
Before opening the thread I somehow expected you'd be making this sort of ignorant reply.
LA has a reputation. Everyone knows of it. If it's akchooally not true then do enlighten us. But joking about the artificiality and waste of the place is an established trope.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on August 05, 2024, 10:38:27 AMFlats in London are going to need AC, probably do already :mad:
They absolutely do - especially above a certain level with new building standards on insulation, windows etc.
I think I mentioned it before but there was recently an open day at a development in East London an loads of the current residents put up banners in their windows telling people not to buy/rent here and that it was too hot.
Quote from: Josquius on August 05, 2024, 10:52:29 AM:lmfao:
Before opening the thread I somehow expected you'd be making this sort of ignorant reply.
LA has a reputation. Everyone knows of it. If it's akchooally not true then do enlighten us. But joking about the artificiality and waste of the place is an established trope.
:huh:
I'm the ignorant one because I have been to LA?
You want to make jokes? I would suggest trying to be funny. :console:
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 05, 2024, 10:53:55 AMQuote from: Richard Hakluyt on August 05, 2024, 10:38:27 AMFlats in London are going to need AC, probably do already :mad:
They absolutely do - especially above a certain level with new building standards on insulation, windows etc.
I think I mentioned it before but there was recently an open day at a development in East London an loads of the current residents put up banners in their windows telling people not to buy/rent here and that it was too hot.
Ugh, I've a wind tunnel in my bedroom right now that is kind of nice. Not enough windows in this new build though to ever properly air it out.
I'm glad I'm only on the 1st floor as I know much worse the higher you go up.
Quote from: Grey Fox on August 05, 2024, 09:52:36 AMI'm guessing LA in 2028 will be fully ACed every where?
LA has a mild climate. Think 72 F every day.
Sounds like the dream.
Quote from: garbon on August 05, 2024, 11:30:28 AMQuote from: Josquius on August 05, 2024, 10:52:29 AM:lmfao:
Before opening the thread I somehow expected you'd be making this sort of ignorant reply.
LA has a reputation. Everyone knows of it. If it's akchooally not true then do enlighten us. But joking about the artificiality and waste of the place is an established trope.
:huh:
I'm the ignorant one because I have been to LA?
You want to make jokes? I would suggest trying to be funny. :console:
Youre calling me out for not having been to LA when I literally just said I haven't? :lol:
I'm sorry your sense of humour is so under developed you can't even tell the difference between a clearly telegraphed dull joke about a stereotype and... I have no idea what on earth you thought it was. A genuine claim that's what they'd do because..... Reasons?
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 05, 2024, 12:46:22 PMSounds like the dream.
Yeah the climate there is about as good as it gets.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 05, 2024, 12:36:18 PMLA has a mild climate. Think 72 F every day.
:yeahright:
It can get quite hot in LA, though it depends a lot on where you are. I've been there before when it was over 100.... flew into Burbank one day and I think it was 103 when I landed, which kind of sucks when you're at an open airport with no walls like Burbank... but ended the day in Santa Barbara and it was in the low 70s there.
Quote from: Caliga on August 05, 2024, 01:30:55 PMQuote from: Admiral Yi on August 05, 2024, 12:36:18 PMLA has a mild climate. Think 72 F every day.
:yeahright:
It can get quite hot in LA, though it depends a lot on where you are. I've been there before when it was over 100.... flew into Burbank one day and I think it was 103 when I landed, which kind of sucks when you're at an open airport with no walls like Burbank... but ended the day in Santa Barbara and it was in the low 70s there.
Maybe he meant San Diego?
Back in sports Sweden dominates the pole vault. Well, one specific Swede. Well, half-Swede.
Quote from: The Brain on August 05, 2024, 03:45:18 PMBack in sports Sweden dominates the pole vault. Well, one specific Swede. Well, half-Swede.
Where's the athletic half from :P
Quote from: Josquius on August 05, 2024, 10:52:29 AMQuote from: Gups on August 05, 2024, 10:19:10 AMI don't know what this means.
Most sports are dominated by people with a certain body type. Nobody cries foul over most basketball players being 2 metres tall.
Yet with boxing they have categories so it isn't just those actually most likely to win in a fight competing.
OK, so that at least makes grammatical sense but I'm not sure what point you are making. That boxing, judo, weightlifting etc should ditch the weight categories and just let the biggest win? Why?
In any event I don't think there is an advantageous body type in most sports save that it's helpful to be fit and strong is a lot of sports. You don't have to be tall to be a great footballer, cricketer, runner or cyclist. I don't know too much about basketball but I think there are a few sub six-footers playing professionally.
Quote from: Gups on August 06, 2024, 02:22:43 AMQuote from: Josquius on August 05, 2024, 10:52:29 AMQuote from: Gups on August 05, 2024, 10:19:10 AMI don't know what this means.
Most sports are dominated by people with a certain body type. Nobody cries foul over most basketball players being 2 metres tall.
Yet with boxing they have categories so it isn't just those actually most likely to win in a fight competing.
OK, so that at least makes grammatical sense but I'm not sure what point you are making. That boxing, judo, weightlifting etc should ditch the weight categories and just let the biggest win? Why?
Being the biggest does not guarantee victory in any of those sports. But to the core point: why not?
You have weight categories in box because of physics. If you are a hit by a boxer significantly heavier than you, you go down and may suffer serious injuries, regardless of your boxing skills.
Yes that means that lighter-weight people could just not win anything in boxing the same way short people don't -as a rule- excel in basketball. But one aspect is that those at-risk lighter weight people would still try to win and potentially die trying, the other is that with weight classes you can have more matches, titles, and thus profit.
Quote from: Tamas on August 06, 2024, 02:46:05 AMYou have weight categories in box because of physics. If you are a hit by a boxer significantly heavier than you, you go down and may suffer serious injuries, regardless of your boxing skills.
Yes that means that lighter-weight people could just not win anything in boxing the same way short people don't -as a rule- excel in basketball. But one aspect is that those at-risk lighter weight people would still try to win and potentially die trying, the other is that with weight classes you can have more matches, titles, and thus profit.
You always have to consider safety issues, regardless of weight classes. If a competitor is at risk, for whatever reason, you don't allow or you discontinue the match.
I'm sure there are people in the 80-85 IQ bracket who are great at math compared to others in that bracket. Doesn't make them great mathematicians.
Quote from: The Brain on August 06, 2024, 02:29:30 AMQuote from: Gups on August 06, 2024, 02:22:43 AMQuote from: Josquius on August 05, 2024, 10:52:29 AMQuote from: Gups on August 05, 2024, 10:19:10 AMI don't know what this means.
Most sports are dominated by people with a certain body type. Nobody cries foul over most basketball players being 2 metres tall.
Yet with boxing they have categories so it isn't just those actually most likely to win in a fight competing.
OK, so that at least makes grammatical sense but I'm not sure what point you are making. That boxing, judo, weightlifting etc should ditch the weight categories and just let the biggest win? Why?
Being the biggest does not guarantee victory in any of those sports. But to the core point: why not?
It absolutely does. A half-decent journeyman heavyweight would pulverise the GOAT featherweight.
Why not? Well, it would deprive the world of the opportunity to see some of the greatest ever boxers- Hagler, Hearns, Duran, Mayweather, the two Sugar Rays etc.
Quote from: Gups on August 06, 2024, 03:38:01 AMQuote from: The Brain on August 06, 2024, 02:29:30 AMQuote from: Gups on August 06, 2024, 02:22:43 AMQuote from: Josquius on August 05, 2024, 10:52:29 AMQuote from: Gups on August 05, 2024, 10:19:10 AMI don't know what this means.
Most sports are dominated by people with a certain body type. Nobody cries foul over most basketball players being 2 metres tall.
Yet with boxing they have categories so it isn't just those actually most likely to win in a fight competing.
OK, so that at least makes grammatical sense but I'm not sure what point you are making. That boxing, judo, weightlifting etc should ditch the weight categories and just let the biggest win? Why?
Being the biggest does not guarantee victory in any of those sports. But to the core point: why not?
It absolutely does. A half-decent journeyman heavyweight would pulverise the GOAT featherweight.
I simply can't see everyone in the heavyweight range beating everyone in lower weight classes. Many giant couch slobs would be destroyed by fit guys half their weight.
QuoteWhy not? Well, it would deprive the world of the opportunity to see some of the greatest ever boxers- Hagler, Hearns, Duran, Mayweather, the two Sugar Rays etc.
Without weight classes they wouldn't be the greatest ever boxers, and they wouldn't be missed. We don't miss all those 5 ft basketball legends that never were.
Quote from: The Brain on August 06, 2024, 03:55:27 AMQuote from: Gups on August 06, 2024, 03:38:01 AMQuote from: The Brain on August 06, 2024, 02:29:30 AMQuote from: Gups on August 06, 2024, 02:22:43 AMQuote from: Josquius on August 05, 2024, 10:52:29 AMQuote from: Gups on August 05, 2024, 10:19:10 AMI don't know what this means.
Most sports are dominated by people with a certain body type. Nobody cries foul over most basketball players being 2 metres tall.
Yet with boxing they have categories so it isn't just those actually most likely to win in a fight competing.
OK, so that at least makes grammatical sense but I'm not sure what point you are making. That boxing, judo, weightlifting etc should ditch the weight categories and just let the biggest win? Why?
Being the biggest does not guarantee victory in any of those sports. But to the core point: why not?
It absolutely does. A half-decent journeyman heavyweight would pulverise the GOAT featherweight.
I simply can't see everyone in the heavyweight range beating everyone in lower weight classes. Many giant couch slobs would be destroyed by fit guys half their weight.
QuoteWhy not? Well, it would deprive the world of the opportunity to see some of the greatest ever boxers- Hagler, Hearns, Duran, Mayweather, the two Sugar Rays etc.
Without weight classes they wouldn't be the greatest ever boxers, and they wouldn't be missed. We don't miss all those 5 ft basketball legends that never were.
I have to assume you are trolling at this stage (or have been hacked by Josq) but just in case...
You clearly know nothing about boxing. I referred to a half decent journeyman amateur, not a couch slob. But even a couch slob wouldn't be destroyed. The featherweight simply wouldn't be able to hit the heavyweight hard enough to knock him down.
With weight classes, Duran etc were the greatest boxers in their weight ranges (and light and middle weigh boxing requires different skill sets to heavyweight boxing) and gave a huge amount of pleasure to people who watched them. That's a perfectly good reason for maintaining weight classes. You've yet to give a good reason for abolishing them.
It could be argued too that in basketball the skills and nature of the game would change dramatically if everyone was under 170 or that rugby would be very different if nobody weighed over a certain amount.
And this short people basketball couldn't be a fun spectator sport?
This obviously isn't a serious proposal. It's not happening. But I do think it's a curious thing to think about. That we have these different standards between sports and in some we control for genetic advantages whilst in others it's just law of nature.
Quote from: Gups on August 06, 2024, 04:22:42 AMQuote from: The Brain on August 06, 2024, 03:55:27 AMQuote from: Gups on August 06, 2024, 03:38:01 AMQuote from: The Brain on August 06, 2024, 02:29:30 AMQuote from: Gups on August 06, 2024, 02:22:43 AMQuote from: Josquius on August 05, 2024, 10:52:29 AMQuote from: Gups on August 05, 2024, 10:19:10 AMI don't know what this means.
Most sports are dominated by people with a certain body type. Nobody cries foul over most basketball players being 2 metres tall.
Yet with boxing they have categories so it isn't just those actually most likely to win in a fight competing.
OK, so that at least makes grammatical sense but I'm not sure what point you are making. That boxing, judo, weightlifting etc should ditch the weight categories and just let the biggest win? Why?
Being the biggest does not guarantee victory in any of those sports. But to the core point: why not?
It absolutely does. A half-decent journeyman heavyweight would pulverise the GOAT featherweight.
I simply can't see everyone in the heavyweight range beating everyone in lower weight classes. Many giant couch slobs would be destroyed by fit guys half their weight.
QuoteWhy not? Well, it would deprive the world of the opportunity to see some of the greatest ever boxers- Hagler, Hearns, Duran, Mayweather, the two Sugar Rays etc.
Without weight classes they wouldn't be the greatest ever boxers, and they wouldn't be missed. We don't miss all those 5 ft basketball legends that never were.
I have to assume you are trolling at this stage (or have been hacked by Josq) but just in case...
You clearly know nothing about boxing. I referred to a half decent journeyman amateur, not a couch slob. But even a couch slob wouldn't be destroyed. The featherweight simply wouldn't be able to hit the heavyweight hard enough to knock him down.
With weight classes, Duran etc were the greatest boxers in their weight ranges (and light and middle weigh boxing requires different skill sets to heavyweight boxing) and gave a huge amount of pleasure to people who watched them. That's a perfectly good reason for maintaining weight classes. You've yet to give a good reason for abolishing them.
We obviously have different definitions of what "guarantee" means. Which is fine, but also means that we can't get any further on that point.
I'm not advocating for their abolishment. Sports rules are for the relevant parties to decide, and sports is inherently arbitrary. I just think weight classes are silly and unnecessary.
Quote from: The Brain on August 05, 2024, 03:45:18 PMBack in sports Sweden dominates the pole vault. Well, one specific Swede. Well, half-Swede.
That was very impressive.
For the Brits, I thought the commentators at the BBC were about to start orgasming live on TV over Keely Hodgkinson. They had that mini-documentary they showed ahead of her race, then during the race said things like the others racers were letting her sneak ahead because she is Keely. Then they referred to her as a queen and as the olympian (possibly the olympic victor) with that extend sequence of her getting a crown and taking selfies. I saw they then also went back to the mini-documentary where they mixed footage of her win with footage from the prior British women who won. Talk about OTT.
Quote from: garbon on August 06, 2024, 06:05:26 AMQuote from: The Brain on August 05, 2024, 03:45:18 PMBack in sports Sweden dominates the pole vault. Well, one specific Swede. Well, half-Swede.
That was very impressive.
For the Brits, I thought the commentators at the BBC were about to start orgasming live on TV over Keely Hodgkinson. They had that mini-documentary they showed ahead of her race, then during the race said things like the others racers were letting her sneak ahead because she is Keely. Then they referred to her as a queen and as the olympian (possibly the olympic victor) with that extend sequence of her getting a crown and taking selfies. I saw they then also went back to the mini-documentary where they mixed footage of her win with footage from the prior British women who won. Talk about OTT.
It's pathetic really. The BBC main commentators - Clare Balding etc - are getting more and more cliche ridden.
There's been some very poor Swedish commentating. From being clueless about torchbearers in the opening ceremony to commenting on looks of women athletes to a detour into the Atlantic slave trade and purported related genetic properties of various populations and how they relate to athletic aptitude.
I've watched some of the beach volleyball. One thing that seems odd to me is that the women compete in bikinis but the men in "normal" sports outfits with shorts and t-shirts. Shouldn't the men be in speedos? I'm confident the crowd would like it, and it would give a more equality-focused impression.
It also seemed weird to have the big audovisual show before the men's 100 m final but not before the women's 100 m final. Or did I miss it?
They can compete in shorts & leggings too. Earlier in the tournament there was a Canada-USA match where both team wore leggings. Paris has just gotten too warm over the course of the week.
I'm struck by how young the female skaters are. The Chinese one was 11. The men on the other hand are in their 20s and 30s.
Wonder why.
Quote from: The Brain on August 06, 2024, 06:24:58 AMI've watched some of the beach volleyball. One thing that seems odd to me is that the women compete in bikinis but the men in "normal" sports outfits with shorts and t-shirts. Shouldn't the men be in speedos? I'm confident the crowd would like it, and it would give a more equality-focused impression.
It also seemed weird to have the big audovisual show before the men's 100 m final but not before the women's 100 m final. Or did I miss it?
Gymnastics too.
Men in trousers and tank tops.
Women in showy tight leotards.
A question for those who don't like weight classes, what is your view about races of different distances in swimming, track etc?
Would you endorse picking one distance to be the one that determines who the best swimmer, runner etc is?
Quote from: crazy canuck on August 06, 2024, 07:25:37 AMA question for those who don't like weight classes, what is your view about races of different distances in swimming, track etc?
Would you endorse picking one distance to be the one that determines who the best swimmer, runner etc is?
What's the connection?
Quote from: crazy canuck on August 06, 2024, 07:25:37 AMA question for those who don't like weight classes, what is your view about races of different distances in swimming, track etc?
Would you endorse picking one distance to be the one that determines who the best swimmer, runner etc is?
I'm outside of all of this but as I suggested earlier, way too many swimming distance by stroke competitions.
I definitely think the slow swimming styles are silly and unnecessary. You don't win Olympic gold for running backwards or on all fours, and no one misses those events.
Quote from: Josquius on August 06, 2024, 07:05:03 AMI'm struck by how young the female skaters are. The Chinese one was 11. The men on the other hand are in their 20s and 30s.
Wonder why.
Quote from: The Brain on August 06, 2024, 06:24:58 AMI've watched some of the beach volleyball. One thing that seems odd to me is that the women compete in bikinis but the men in "normal" sports outfits with shorts and t-shirts. Shouldn't the men be in speedos? I'm confident the crowd would like it, and it would give a more equality-focused impression.
It also seemed weird to have the big audovisual show before the men's 100 m final but not before the women's 100 m final. Or did I miss it?
Gymnastics too.
Men in trousers and tank tops.
Women in showy tight leotards.
Same with pretty much all of athletics, really. I suspect most of the ladies are handed their uniforms by their national organisation, so the perverts are there somewhere.
Quote from: The Brain on August 06, 2024, 07:28:41 AMQuote from: crazy canuck on August 06, 2024, 07:25:37 AMA question for those who don't like weight classes, what is your view about races of different distances in swimming, track etc?
Would you endorse picking one distance to be the one that determines who the best swimmer, runner etc is?
What's the connection?
Different types of athletes excel at different distances.
If you answered a marathon we would never see Bolt, as an example.
Quote from: garbon on August 06, 2024, 07:54:43 AMQuote from: crazy canuck on August 06, 2024, 07:25:37 AMA question for those who don't like weight classes, what is your view about races of different distances in swimming, track etc?
Would you endorse picking one distance to be the one that determines who the best swimmer, runner etc is?
I'm outside of all of this but as I suggested earlier, way too many swimming distance by stroke competitions.
Why do you think that?
Quote from: crazy canuck on August 06, 2024, 08:44:29 AMQuote from: The Brain on August 06, 2024, 07:28:41 AMQuote from: crazy canuck on August 06, 2024, 07:25:37 AMA question for those who don't like weight classes, what is your view about races of different distances in swimming, track etc?
Would you endorse picking one distance to be the one that determines who the best swimmer, runner etc is?
What's the connection?
Different types of athletes excel at different distances.
If you answered a marathon we would never see Bolt, as an example.
But what's the connection with weight classes?
Quote from: The Brain on August 06, 2024, 08:46:49 AMQuote from: crazy canuck on August 06, 2024, 08:44:29 AMQuote from: The Brain on August 06, 2024, 07:28:41 AMQuote from: crazy canuck on August 06, 2024, 07:25:37 AMA question for those who don't like weight classes, what is your view about races of different distances in swimming, track etc?
Would you endorse picking one distance to be the one that determines who the best swimmer, runner etc is?
What's the connection?
Different types of athletes excel at different distances.
If you answered a marathon we would never see Bolt, as an example.
But what's the connection with weight classes?
Try answering my question and provide a justification. You might start to see the connection.
Quote from: crazy canuck on August 06, 2024, 09:12:07 AMQuote from: The Brain on August 06, 2024, 08:46:49 AMQuote from: crazy canuck on August 06, 2024, 08:44:29 AMQuote from: The Brain on August 06, 2024, 07:28:41 AMQuote from: crazy canuck on August 06, 2024, 07:25:37 AMA question for those who don't like weight classes, what is your view about races of different distances in swimming, track etc?
Would you endorse picking one distance to be the one that determines who the best swimmer, runner etc is?
What's the connection?
Different types of athletes excel at different distances.
If you answered a marathon we would never see Bolt, as an example.
But what's the connection with weight classes?
Try answering my question and provide a justification. You might start to see the connection.
Socrates, bye. :thumbsdown:
Quote from: crazy canuck on August 06, 2024, 09:12:07 AMQuote from: The Brain on August 06, 2024, 08:46:49 AMQuote from: crazy canuck on August 06, 2024, 08:44:29 AMQuote from: The Brain on August 06, 2024, 07:28:41 AMQuote from: crazy canuck on August 06, 2024, 07:25:37 AMA question for those who don't like weight classes, what is your view about races of different distances in swimming, track etc?
Would you endorse picking one distance to be the one that determines who the best swimmer, runner etc is?
What's the connection?
Different types of athletes excel at different distances.
If you answered a marathon we would never see Bolt, as an example.
But what's the connection with weight classes?
Try answering my question and provide a justification. You might start to see the connection.
:unsure:
Hey, if you guys don't want to discuss the positions you have taken, and their potential weaknesses, that up to you.
But then they just left with your assertions that you are correct and that's hardly fun or enlightening.
Quote from: crazy canuck on August 06, 2024, 09:12:07 AMQuote from: The Brain on August 06, 2024, 08:46:49 AMQuote from: crazy canuck on August 06, 2024, 08:44:29 AMQuote from: The Brain on August 06, 2024, 07:28:41 AMQuote from: crazy canuck on August 06, 2024, 07:25:37 AMA question for those who don't like weight classes, what is your view about races of different distances in swimming, track etc?
Would you endorse picking one distance to be the one that determines who the best swimmer, runner etc is?
What's the connection?
Different types of athletes excel at different distances.
If you answered a marathon we would never see Bolt, as an example.
But what's the connection with weight classes?
Try answering my question and provide a justification. You might start to see the connection.
Race distance and weight class are not comparable, except at the highest level of "way to segregate a competition". Their nature is completely different.
A weight class reflects something an athlete
is. An athlete cannot choose what weight class to participate in. The competition organizers put them on a scale and tell them, based on the reading, the one and only competition they can enter. The parameters of the competition are otherwise identical between the weight classes.
In contrast, a race distance is a parameter of the competition. There are no hard exclusions for athletes; any swimmer can attempt to compete at any distance they wish, and most compete at multiple. Only their performance under the particular parameters affects their ability to compete at high levels.
So no, abolishing weight classes for an event is not analogous to defining a single distance for an event. They operate on different mechanisms and have different purposes.
It's analogous if you want to cut down the number of competitions but are unable to give a good reason for doing so.
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on August 06, 2024, 09:42:15 AMQuote from: crazy canuck on August 06, 2024, 09:12:07 AMQuote from: The Brain on August 06, 2024, 08:46:49 AMQuote from: crazy canuck on August 06, 2024, 08:44:29 AMQuote from: The Brain on August 06, 2024, 07:28:41 AMQuote from: crazy canuck on August 06, 2024, 07:25:37 AMA question for those who don't like weight classes, what is your view about races of different distances in swimming, track etc?
Would you endorse picking one distance to be the one that determines who the best swimmer, runner etc is?
What's the connection?
Different types of athletes excel at different distances.
If you answered a marathon we would never see Bolt, as an example.
But what's the connection with weight classes?
Try answering my question and provide a justification. You might start to see the connection.
Race distance and weight class are not comparable, except at the highest level of "way to segregate a competition". Their nature is completely different.
A weight class reflects something an athlete is. An athlete cannot choose what weight class to participate in. The competition organizers put them on a scale and tell them, based on the reading, the one and only competition they can enter. The parameters of the competition are otherwise identical between the weight classes.
In contrast, a race distance is a parameter of the competition. There are no hard exclusions for athletes; any swimmer can attempt to compete at any distance they wish, and most compete at multiple. Only their performance under the particular parameters affects their ability to compete at high levels.
So no, abolishing weight classes for an event is not analogous to defining a single distance for an event. They operate on different mechanisms and have different purposes.
I disagree with a number of your points. An athlete does have some control over what weight class they are in. In wrestling a major part of training is staying within a particular class, as an example. As an anecdote, early on in my son's rowing experience he was asked to choose whether he would be a lightweight or heavyweight rowing. His decision dictated both his diet and how he would be trained.
Your point that there are restrictions on who can compete at a particular distance is true, but ignores the point that a sprinter is fundamentally different from a distance runner. They are very different athletes.
And so I ask again, would you give up seeing Bolt by creating one type of competition that is a long race. The analogy being would you give up seeing Sugar Ray by eliminating light weight boxing?
Quote from: crazy canuck on August 06, 2024, 09:32:44 AMHey, if you guys don't want to discuss the positions you have taken, and their potential weaknesses, that up to you.
:blink:
Quote from: The Brain on August 06, 2024, 08:02:10 AMI definitely think the slow swimming styles are silly and unnecessary. You don't win Olympic gold for running backwards or on all fours, and no one misses those events.
There are racewalking events.
Anyway, a lot of events don't really make much sense, but are there due to tradition. One of my favorites are all the variety of "throw some weirdly shaped object the farthest you can" events. At least in the case of javelin/discus there's the Ancient Olympics connection, but then there's also hammer throw and shot put.
Agreed that the analogy doesn't work.
The different swimming strokes are kind of different sports.
More comparable to rugby vs football than to lightweight vs featherweight.
It's the restrictive rules of who you are before the sport begins vs rules after the starters bell/whistle/whatever.
All that being said however for totally different reasons I would have no issue with a cull of swimming strokes. Some seem quite pointless. Like the competitors are needlessly performing an inferior way of doing the thing (and yes. Walking can do one too).
Quote from: celedhring on August 06, 2024, 10:09:47 AMQuote from: The Brain on August 06, 2024, 08:02:10 AMI definitely think the slow swimming styles are silly and unnecessary. You don't win Olympic gold for running backwards or on all fours, and no one misses those events.
There are racewalking events.
:yes: Which I consider a silly and unnecessary sport.
Quote from: Josquius on August 06, 2024, 10:19:38 AMAgreed that the analogy doesn't work.
The different swimming strokes are kind of different sports.
More comparable to rugby vs football than to lightweight vs featherweight.
It's the restrictive rules of who you are before the sport begins vs rules after the starters bell/whistle/whatever.
All that being said however for totally different reasons I would have no issue with a cull of swimming strokes. Some seem quite pointless. Like the competitors are needlessly performing an inferior way of doing the thing (and yes. Walking can do one too).
So what is the inferior stroke? The one that is the most technical and physically demanding or the one that is easiest to learn.
Quote from: crazy canuck on August 06, 2024, 10:02:43 AMI disagree with a number of your points. An athlete does have some control over what weight class they are in. In wrestling a major part of training is staying within a particular class, as an example. As an anecdote, early on in my son's rowing experience he was asked to choose whether he would be a lightweight or heavyweight rowing. His decision dictated both his diet and how he would be trained.
Yes, they have some control over what class they end up in. However, for a given competition they can be in one and only one weight class.
Quote from: crazy canuck on August 06, 2024, 10:02:43 AMYour point that there are restrictions on who can compete at a particular distance is true, but ignores the point that a sprinter is fundamentally different from a distance runner. They are very different athletes.
Yes, the three classes of runner generally have different builds and training regimens. However, there are multiple distances in each of the three groups, and there are a few athletes who straddle categories so I don't think the distinction is quite that sharp, nor are the groups quite that homogeneous. Regardless, my main point was that there is a difference between a mechanism where an athlete can choose to participate (or not) in any number of events at a meet and a mechanism that requires an athlete to compete in a specific event at a meet. Regardless of the mechanism, what the athlete chooses to focus on and train for before the meet affects what they, legally or practically, can compete in at the meet.
Quote from: crazy canuck on August 06, 2024, 10:02:43 AMAnd so I ask again, would you give up seeing Bolt by creating one type of competition that is a long race. The analogy being would you give up seeing Sugar Ray by eliminating light weight boxing?
Just to be clear, I'm not defending the removal of weight classes from sports that have them. I just don't think this analogy you chose fits. The weight class corollary in running would be if there were one and only one race for each of the three categories (sprint, middle-stance, and long-distance), which IMO would be silly.
Weight classes, along with gender and (in some competitions) age, do serve to allow a broader range of athletes to compete in those sports safely and effectively. They are, however, a blunt and very different mechanism than things like race distances that stratify competitors more naturally based on how the athlete chooses to train. There just isn't a better way in the cases where they are used.
I think Brain and garbon were reacting to that more than the validity of weight classes as a means of promoting competition diversity.
I refer you to the Olympic Mission (https://olympics.com/ioc/mission) and the Olympic Values (https://olympics.com/ioc/olympic-values).
It seems to me that if your goal is to "find the very best boxer in the world" then having no weight classes and no gendered categories makes sense, but it's pretty clear to me that that is not the purpose of the Olympics. As such, while you may find it silly that there are different weight classes in boxing etc, having them seems perfectly in line with what the Olympics are actually supposed to be about.
Quote from: The Olympic MissionThe IOC's role is:
- to encourage and support the promotion of ethics and good governance in sport as well as education of youth through sport and to dedicate its efforts to ensuring that, in sport, the spirit of fair play prevails and violence is banned;
- to encourage and support the organisation, development and coordination of sport and sports competitions;
- to ensure the regular celebration of the Olympic Games;
- to cooperate with the competent public or private organisations and authorities in the endeavour to place sport at the service of humanity and thereby to promote peace;
- to take action to strengthen the unity of the Olympic Movement, to protect its independence, to maintain and promote its political neutrality and to preserve the autonomy of sport;
- to act against any form of discrimination affecting the Olympic Movement;
- to encourage and support elected representatives of athletes within the Olympic Movement, with the IOC Athletes' Commission acting as their supreme representative on all Olympic Games and related matters; 17 Olympic Charter In force as from 17 July 2020
- to encourage and support the promotion of women in sport at all levels and in all structures with a view to implementing the principle of equality of men and women;
- to protect clean athletes and the integrity of sport, by leading the fight against doping, and by taking action against all forms of manipulation of competitions and related corruption;
- to encourage and support measures relating to the medical care and health of athletes;
- to oppose any political or commercial abuse of sport and athletes;
- to encourage and support the efforts of sports organisations and public authorities to provide for the social and professional future of athletes;
- to encourage and support the development of sport for all;
- to encourage and support a responsible concern for environmental issues, to promote sustainable development in sport and to require that the Olympic Games are held accordingly;
- to promote a positive legacy from the Olympic Games to the host cities, regions and countries;
- to encourage and support initiatives blending sport with culture and education;
- to encourage and support the activities of the International Olympic Academy ("IOA") and other institutions which dedicate themselves to Olympic education;
- to promote safe sport and the protection of athletes from all forms of harassment and abuse.
Quote from: The Olympic ValuesThe three values of olympism are excellence, respect and friendship. They constitute the foundation on which the olympic movement builds its activities to promote sport, culture and education with a view to building a better world.
The original values of Olympism as expressed in the Olympic Charter were to "encourage effort", "preserve human dignity" and "develop harmony".
Over time, they have evolved and are now expressed in more contemporary terms as:
- Striving for excellence and encouraging people to be the best they can be.
- Demonstrating respect in many different manners: respect towards yourself, the rules, your opponents, the environment, the public, etc.
- Celebrating friendship, which is quite unique to the Olympic Games – an event that brings people together every few years.
This is the idea of setting your rivalries aside. There is more that unites us than divides us.
Olympism is a philosophy of life, exalting and combining in a balanced whole the qualities of body, will and mind. Blending sport with culture and education, Olympism seeks to create a way of life based on the joy found in effort, the educational value of good example and respect for universal fundamental ethical principles.
The goal of the Olympic Movement is to contribute to building a peaceful and better world by educating youth through sport practiced without discrimination of any kind and in the Olympic spirit, which requires mutual understanding with a spirit of friendship, solidarity and fair play.
Quote from: Gups on August 06, 2024, 06:11:11 AMIt's pathetic really. The BBC main commentators - Clare Balding etc - are getting more and more cliche ridden.
I really hate the X Factor-isation "tell us your journey....now cry" stuff with the athletes. I don't mind focusing on British athletes but I hate the need to create narratives - let the event be the narrative.
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on August 06, 2024, 12:22:23 PMYes, they have some control over what class they end up in. However, for a given competition they can be in one and only one weight class.
Yes, but how is that different from an athlete deciding to train for a long distance vs a short distance run. No one is going to be able to be competitive in both a sprint and over a long distance. The training is completely different those races.
QuoteYes, the three classes of runner generally have different builds and training regimens. However, there are multiple distances in each of the three groups, and there are a few athletes who straddle categories so I don't think the distinction is quite that sharp, nor are the groups quite that homogeneous. Regardless, my main point was that there is a difference between a mechanism where an athlete can choose to participate (or not) in any number of events at a meet and a mechanism that requires an athlete to compete in a specific event at a meet. Regardless of the mechanism, what the athlete chooses to focus on and train for before the meet affects what they, legally or practically, can compete in at the meet.
I think we are saying the same thing here. Just as an athlete does not just step on the scales to decide what weight class they are in, an athlete does not choose what distance they will be racing in when they arrive. In both cases there are years of training that decide those things.
QuoteI think Brain and garbon were reacting to that more than the validity of weight classes as a means of promoting competition diversity.
Then they are ascribing motivations that I doubt existed. I doubt very much the creators of weight classes in boxing had diversity as their guiding principle. I think it more likely that boxing, like wrestling, rowing and all other sports that have weight classes, strive to create the greatest amount of competition.
To clarify I don't care anything about boxing. I think it barbaric and that's about as much thought I give it.
Quote from: garbon on August 06, 2024, 01:47:51 PMTo clarify I don't care anything about boxing. I think it barbaric and that's about as much thought I give it.
Noted :)
A problem that I find more, well, problematic is the youth of the athletes in womens skateboarding. Tokyo had 12 year old, Paris has 14 year has gold medalist.
That's not good for the long term life of the sport.
Quote from: Grey Fox on August 06, 2024, 02:42:58 PMA problem that I find more, well, problematic is the youth of the athletes in womens skateboarding. Tokyo had 12 year old, Paris has 14 year has gold medalist.
That's not good for the long term life of the sport.
I guess that depends on whether younger athletes will continue dominating (perhaps because it's easier to pull off impressive tricks with a lower body weight), or whether it's a reflection of where the sport is - that folks older than the current crop of 12-14 year-olds are the oldest who've trained for it as an Olympic sport and therefore have a competitive edge?
In general, I'd prefer not to see 12-14 years olds in the Olympics. It should be young adults at the youngest, IMO.
Yeah saw a bit in the Guardian about the UK skateboarder. She's 16 and has already spent years in rehabilitation.
The youngest entry in the preliminaries this Olympics was 11.
Not particularly comfortable with it.
As I said before it's just so weird. The girls lining up look like they're on a senior school trip.
The guys lining up... Grizzled 20 somethings. Iirc some in their 30s. How you expect athletes to look.
Why the gender difference.?
Is women's skateboarding just new or is there something more to this?
Also particularly odd I find is quite how dominant Japanese girls are in skating. Both those representing Japan and those of Japanese heritage elsewhere. Not a sport that is traditionally encouraged in Japan at all. Weird.
Totally unrelated. Interesting contrast in sports when the athletes step out. The swimmers mostly all strode out super businesslike ignoring everything. The shot putters were all smiles and waves and funny poses.
I think it's because there isn't a women's professional circuit.
You hold tryouts and the best girls gets in and for some reason few older women make it.
Maybe it's like gymnastics before Biles forced the federation to change how they score.
Quote from: Josquius on August 06, 2024, 03:10:25 PMTotally unrelated. Interesting contrast in sports when the athletes step out. The swimmers mostly all strode out super businesslike ignoring everything. The shot putters were all smiles and waves and funny poses.
In Hungary, at least, swimming is SERIOUS BUSINESS. You are put to rigorous (and maybe not anymore but a couple of decades ago certainly quite brutal) training from a very young age. And if you are getting considered competitive on the international stage then that was the easy part because now you have rigorous training AND boundless expectations. And now there is the whole sport-centric fascist autocracy to dial that to eleven.
In fact the probably best swimmer of the current generation (Milak something can't remember his name) just trolled the whole system. Months ago he seemed to had been abandoning his training and preparation work and it was a scandal of the "how dare you abandon the nation" variety. Then he shows up on the Olympics better than ever, having already won a gold I thin. He probably did continue to prepare just had enough of the attention and the hype. Continuous with a very openly "zero fucks given" attitude, so good for him.
:hmm:
The swimming events I saw had the swimmers often walking with swagger.
Swimming in NA is also taken very seriously. And then the Aussies turn that up to 10.
Quote from: crazy canuck on August 06, 2024, 04:51:10 PMSwimming in NA is also taken very seriously. And then the Aussies turn that up to 10.
True of Aussies and any sport though :lol:
I was speaking to an Aussie colleague about this today and they were saying about how they didn't really enjoy swimming as a kid and were trying quit at about 12/13 - but zero tolerance. Still mandatory, competitive swimming at school and after school for state competitions. Swim meets are just a core part of Aussie culture apparently :lol: :ph34r:
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 06, 2024, 04:58:26 PMQuote from: crazy canuck on August 06, 2024, 04:51:10 PMSwimming in NA is also taken very seriously. And then the Aussies turn that up to 10.
True of Aussies and any sport though :lol:
I was speaking to an Aussie colleague about this today and they were saying about how they didn't really enjoy swimming as a kid and were trying quit at about 12/13 - but zero tolerance. Still mandatory, competitive swimming at school and after school for state competitions. Swim meets are just a core part of Aussie culture apparently :lol: :ph34r:
Guess that's what happens when your PM dies drowning, swimming education becomes very important :D
:lol: Honoured with a memorial swimming pool:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Holt_Memorial_Swimming_Centre
Quote from: Grey Fox on August 06, 2024, 03:17:58 PMI think it's because there isn't a women's professional circuit.
You hold tryouts and the best girls gets in and for some reason few older women make it.
Maybe it's like gymnastics before Biles forced the federation to change how they score.
Biles didn't force the federation to change how they score, they went away from the perfect 10 system years before Biles started competing at the highest levels. The scoring change did enable someone like Biles to be competitive, and to be competitive as an adult.
I guess the way gymnastics applies to this discussion is that changing the success criteria to benefit adult bodies was what finally drove 14-year-olds from the highest levels of the sport. Well, technically, it was the minimum age requirement of 16 that did it, but countries like China could produce the paperwork to prove that a breastfeeding infant was 16 if they needed to be.
So that Onion article about that five year old watching the Olympics and deciding she wanted to be a gymnast was deluded because she was already years behind in her training might no longer be true. Nice.
Quote from: Valmy on August 07, 2024, 11:09:39 AMSo that Onion article about that five year old watching the Olympics and deciding she wanted to be a gymnast was deluded because she was already years behind in her training might no longer be true. Nice.
They should publish a version where they just strike through references to gymnastics and put in skateboarding instead.
Quote from: Valmy on August 07, 2024, 11:09:39 AMSo that Onion article about that five year old watching the Olympics and deciding she wanted to be a gymnast was deluded because she was already years behind in her training might no longer be true. Nice.
The Chinese girl who won silver the other day started age 3 according to he profile. But it's China :D
The gymnast that really blows my mind is Rebeca Andrade. She's not that much younger than Biles, but unlike Biles, she's had many serious injuries. I have no idea how you can tear your ACL three times and not only still do gymnastics at 25, but do it the best you've ever done it. In my mind ligament injuries were forever injuries, you can never quite come back 100% from them.
What happened with the Romanian gymnast? How does one go about appealing points?
Quote from: HVC on August 07, 2024, 08:35:01 PMWhat happened with the Romanian gymnast? How does one go about appealing points?
You can't appeal the execution score, but the difficulty score is supposed to be objective based on the skills you attempted, so you can appeal it if you got something different compared to what you think you should've gotten. Usually the judges are familiar with your routine so they know what skills to look for, but sometimes you add something at the last minute, or sometimes the skill you attempted came up so short that it's not clear that you should even be credited with the difficulty for attempting it. If you file an appeal, the judges will look at all the video angles to come to a decision.
So no massive corruption spearheaded by the powerful American Olympic committee? Well, that's less exciting :(
Here is a heart warming story about a Canadian weightlifter who won Silver, with also adds some context to our weight class discussion.
QuoteMaude Charron didn't go to Paris to defend the gold medal she won in Tokyo because that wasn't possible.
In the interim, they'd eliminated her class in Olympic weightlifting. In order to continue competing, she had either to gain weight or lose it. The Canadian decided to lose it. That was difficult.
Then her knee went and wouldn't get better. That was difficult.
Competing in her new class – 59 kilograms – she wasn't making the same impression. That was difficult.
She went to Paris on Thursday and lost. That was easy.
It is hard to imagine a defending champion in any sport who's ever taken a loss better. When she realized she had secured a silver, Charron was standing in the ready room backstage. She immediately burst into tears of joy.
Later, she did a full circle of the podium and hugged a Taiwanese colleague like she'd recently been rescued from sea. She leaped up into her place and started crying again. At certain points, all three woman on the stage appeared to be shedding tears.
Backstage, Charron cried again. Several times.
"I didn't come here for a medal. I didn't come here for a podium," Charron said. "All I came here for was the experience."
These days Charron – who is compact person – trains six or seven pounds heavier than her competing weight, and then has to cut for every tournament.
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The other, bigger problem with changing weight classes – the people waiting to greet you. Charron was dropped into a class with a defending gold medalist, as well as a defending world champion. In essence, they'd created a sort of weightlifting all-star league.
The atmosphere inside the poetically named South Paris Arena 6 on Thursday was charged from the get-go because of those rivals. Many were here to root for one of Taiwan's biggest stars, Kuo Hsing-Chun. A competing section was there for China's Luo Shifang.
Along with hunger and injury, Charron would have to overcome geopolitics.
In the end, she lifted as well as she had at the higher weight class in Tokyo. She set an Olympic record in the snatch, quickly eclipsed again by Luo.
She tried for another in clean-and-jerk. Her last lift would have set all sorts of records and put her temporarily in a gold-medal spot. She managed to get the bar up on her shoulders. But her legs buckled as she tried to put it over her head.
Luo, the eventual gold medalist, was preparing to go to stratospheric weights to push Charron aside. But once she'd won it, the Chinese lifter came out, did a little lap of the stage and ran back inside again. Competition over.
It was the rare instance in which everyone standing on the podium appeared happy with their result. A really lovely Olympic feeling about it.
As she spoke with reporters, Charron was wandering around with her silver medal in a box. She was also carrying the gift box they give winners. She held both loosely at her side, waving them around occasionally to emphasize a point.
Charron has spoken many times about how she enjoyed winning in Tokyo, and little else. Especially the "anxiety" that suffused the athletes village. Athletes were tested for COVID daily. Anyone who came up positive would be eliminated. Weightlifters compete near the end of an Olympics. It must have been a long, lonely wait.
Charron won at 64 kg and looked pretty happy doing it. But she says she wasn't.
"It ended well, but I'm like, 'Where's my gang? Where's my support system?' It was happiness, but also ... not regret, but maybe a sour feeling? I thought, 'I did all of that. It's wonderful. But I'm alone.'
No one feels alone in Paris. The venues are rammed. The people in them are up for every event. There was only one French competitor in Charron's grouping, and she did not show well. So the crowd shifted seamlessly to everyone else. They cheered her as hard as they did the Nigerian, the Colombian, the Ukrainian and the Filipina. They cheered hardest for the competitors who were struggling. When the Ukrainian appeared to injure herself in her last lift and staggered away, the crowd roared with sympathy.
"We need that fire," Charron said. "We're lifting a crazy amount of weight. Sometimes, by yourself, it's not enough."
No wonder Charron enjoyed it so much, despite not winning. Weightlifters only get one big gig, and this is it. She has finally got to experience it to the fullest.
Considering all the complications and the level of competition, this is one of the most unlikely silver medals at these Games.
Charron, a charming 31-year-old who plans to become a police officer, has the unusual wherewithal to understand winning really isn't everything. It does help when you have a gold tucked in a closet somewhere at home.
Long after the Chinese and Taiwanese had left the mixed zone, Charron was still milling around in there. She was happily chatting with anyone who held out a microphone and hugging anyone who came at her with arms outstretched. She took a phone call. She did some selfies. She cried some more.
It was the longest mixed-zone winning lap I think I've ever seen. In the end, the press attachés were near weeping themselves, begging for her to leave so that they could do a winners' news conference. A men's competition was beginning in 90 minutes. At this rate, they were never going to make it.
Charron kept gabbing.
"Now all I want to do is celebrate with my family," she said. "I saw them in the crowd. I heard them. That's why I came here."
I was at the Olympics HQ last week and noticed on the stones outside they have a carved list of past hosts.
The 1956 Olympics was hosted by Melbourne... But alongside this they also have Stockholm carved in as a host since they hosted the equestrian events due to Australian quarantine laws.
This is the only time this has seemed to have happened for some reason despite it being very common some events are handled elsewhere. No mention of taihiti and marseille as co hosts this time.
Also noticed something I've never realised before. Doubtless old news to most- Olympics cancelled due to the world wars still kept their number. The 6th games just never happened.
Also odd that the would-be hosts on every occasion this happened were beligerants in the ongoing wars. So... Keep an eye on America in the coming years.
The Australian break dancer is my spirit animal.
The best part of only watching olympic clips is you only get the good stuff :D
Quote from: HVC on August 09, 2024, 09:20:22 PMThe Australian break dancer is my spirit animal.
The best part of only watching olympic clips is you only get the good stuff :D
Amen. Grabbing some breaky the other day they had men's field hockey on. Hoo haw.
We won the women's handball final! :yeah:
Suck it, frog eaters! :uffda: :frog:
The womens' team has always been the flagship in Norway in that sport. But we've been close and no cigar (no pun intended) the past few championships. I was expect France to beat us comfortably. But, they didn't. Handball, unlike my sport, football, is a tense affair with like 20-30 goals per team. It was the sport all the hot girls at school played.
So keeping the number of goals scored per game in mind, it makes for rather good TV. And today it was spectacular. A hostile French crowd and a bunch of plucky Norwegian women beating the favourites. With a goalkeeper almost my own age who had an absolute stormer of a game.
Sports. As a spectator, it is about feelings. And I am feeling rather damned good now.
Well done :cheers:
Danmark's Radio has a piece on Stine Bredal Oftedal adding the Olympic Gold to her achievements, saying it was the only thing she missed. A storybook final match.
US vs Brazil football (soccer) game was fun to see though boiling in the stadium.
The break dancing is very weird.
Big hello fellow kids vibes. The judges all in white but otherwise trying to dress cool. Like hood heaven.
And the contestants having nicknames of variable silliness
The state broadcaster here (and I did not bother fact-checking) has a piece saying Norway hasn't won so many medals in 104 years. :uffda:
It certainly has been an eventful Olympic games for us.
It is Canada's most successful Olympics. The absence of the cheating Russians does help in some sports. Canada's medals count is mainly, I'd say all the pressure, on the shoulders of our women athletes.
The bbc mentioned it's Irelands best iirc ever too.
Events bloat?
Or else... Who is doing much worse than normal?
I had read it was the highest non boycotted Summer Olympics. Did we end up beating our 1984 record?
Quote from: Josquius on August 11, 2024, 08:57:12 AMThe bbc mentioned it's Irelands best iirc ever too.
Events bloat?
Or else... Who is doing much worse than normal?
Germany did maybe not worse than "normal", but definitely worse than historically.
Quote from: Josquius on August 11, 2024, 08:57:12 AMThe bbc mentioned it's Irelands best iirc ever too.
Events bloat?
Or else... Who is doing much worse than normal?
Maybe they'll give medals for attending in the future
Quote from: Josquius on August 11, 2024, 08:57:12 AMThe bbc mentioned it's Irelands best iirc ever too.
Events bloat?
Or else... Who is doing much worse than normal?
No Russian or Belarusian athletes and the UK is doing worse (similar medal haul, fewer golds).
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 11, 2024, 11:33:28 AMQuote from: Josquius on August 11, 2024, 08:57:12 AMThe bbc mentioned it's Irelands best iirc ever too.
Events bloat?
Or else... Who is doing much worse than normal?
No Russian or Belarusian athletes and the UK is doing worse (similar medal haul, fewer golds).
I've heard America does things just based on number of medals.
Which I do have some sympathy for.
Sure a gold is better than a silver but by such a level a country with a few more golds is higher than one with twice as many overall (looking at the Dutch here)?
Could be wrong but I think that was a change made in American reporting of medals after they were overtaken by China on golds :P
Although I think they should do it like a league table - gold = 3 points etc :ph34r:
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 11, 2024, 02:43:31 PMCould be wrong but I think that was a change made in American reporting of medals after they were overtaken by China on golds :P
That's my impression as well. Growing up it seemed they always reported ranking by gold.
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 11, 2024, 02:43:31 PMCould be wrong but I think that was a change made in American reporting of medals after they were overtaken by China on golds :P
Although I think they should do it like a league table - gold = 3 points etc :ph34r:
No, people have been giving us shit about this since at least Barcelona 1992.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 11, 2024, 02:56:45 PMQuote from: Sheilbh on August 11, 2024, 02:43:31 PMCould be wrong but I think that was a change made in American reporting of medals after they were overtaken by China on golds :P
That's my impression as well. Growing up it seemed they always reported ranking by gold.
I distinctly remember it being total medals going back to at least when I was a teenager.
Quote from: Josquius on August 11, 2024, 02:34:05 PMI've heard America does things just based on number of medals.
Which I do have some sympathy for.
Sure a gold is better than a silver but by such a level a country with a few more golds is higher than one with twice as many overall (looking at the Dutch here)?
Personally I could see weighing golds higher, like Sheilbh suggests, but I just think it is idiotic to act like Bronze and Silver Medals do not exist because they clearly do. The Olympics is entirely organized around the concept that 2nd and 3rd place are also champions, obviously not as prestigious as Gold, but still.
So I just reject the perverse and unnatural notion that only gold matters in the Olympics. If that was true there would not be Silver and Bronze medals.
That's not how it's counted though. It's you count golds first if there's a tie-break (like this year US and China) then silvers, then bronzes.
It's not just gold numbers.
What is this closing ceremony?
Actually is this what happened because of Christian complaints?
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 11, 2024, 03:22:52 PMThat's not how it's counted though. It's you count golds first if there's a tie-break (like this year US and China) then silvers, then bronzes.
It's not just gold numbers.
How it is counted wrong? Yes. We do total medals which isn't perfect, but vastly preferable to just pretending this isn't the Olympics but some other event where only first matters.
Quote from: Valmy on August 11, 2024, 03:15:39 PMThe Olympics is entirely organized around the concept that 2nd and 3rd place are also champions, obviously not as prestigious as Gold, but still.
Someone never got picked first in school. :(
I would agree with the points system for medals.
We could even compromise on golds being special special and give gold 4, with 2 and 1 for silver and bronze.
Which does remind me of the interesting contrasts in reactions of athletes finishing 2nd and 3rd.
To some it was a disaster. They had absolutely failed. Others were ecstatic. They'd won.
So many obvious Christian references in the closing ceremony. Come on guys, we get it. :rolleyes:
Quote from: The Brain on August 11, 2024, 03:32:49 PMSo many obvious Christian references in the closing ceremony. Come on guys, we get it. :rolleyes:
:lol:
Aliens and a bee make the Olympic rings?
Quote from: Valmy on August 11, 2024, 03:26:37 PMHow it is counted wrong? Yes. We do total medals which isn't perfect, but vastly preferable to just pretending this isn't the Olympics but some other event where only first matters.
Dude, that's all of life.
From BBC:
QuoteThe Golden Voyager is glad to have all his alien friends on stage now as they are very kindly helping to assemble the Olympic rings, but not until they've had a roll around in them.
I guess he needs to be grateful for the help?
Quote from: garbon on August 11, 2024, 03:26:32 PMActually is this what happened because of Christian complaints?
Maybe - but also everyone in Britain loved the 2012 opening cermony and the closing ceremony was an absolute embarrassing mess of the type we'd expected it all to be. Looking at French responses and I feel something similar is happening here :ph34r:
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 11, 2024, 02:43:31 PMCould be wrong but I think that was a change made in American reporting of medals after they were overtaken by China on golds :P
Although I think they should do it like a league table - gold = 3 points etc :ph34r:
Someone did just that and it changes very little:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GUuMn9XXgAE5NTv?format=png&name=900x900)
Surely this ceremony will have been prepared long in advance of the games?
QuoteSomeone did just that and it changes very little:
Britain beats Australia.
This is all that matters.
Quote from: Josquius on August 11, 2024, 03:42:20 PMSurely this ceremony will have been prepared long in advance of the games?
No it's improv. Golden Boy was a guy in line at a post office.
Quote from: Zoupa on August 11, 2024, 03:41:51 PMSomeone did just that and it changes very little:
I'm now fully convinced seeing that it moves Britain above Australia :ph34r:
Although I basically have zero issue with how the table is displayed (outside America). Winning is a big thing that should count for a lot.
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 11, 2024, 03:45:35 PMQuote from: Zoupa on August 11, 2024, 03:41:51 PMSomeone did just that and it changes very little:
I'm now fully convinced seeing that it moves Britain above Australia :ph34r:
Although I basically have zero issue with how the table is displayed (outside America). Winning is a big thing that should count for a lot.
Tory <_<
Honest question: do Americans refer to silver and bronze medallists as Olympic champions?
There appears to be some kind of pop group performing.
What a celebration for the athletes...
Phoenix and Kavinsky.... I mean. I know them. Ish. But not really at the international superstar level. :hmm:
Most of the closing ceremony was mystifying weirdness - they had the guy who organised it on French tv before hand really bigging it up - but I did like the bit with the audience wrist bands doing pixelated animations.
TBF it's not like France has a lot of international superstars.
Quote from: The Brain on August 11, 2024, 03:55:49 PMTBF it's not like France has a lot of international superstars.
Should have just done a three hour Jean-Michel Jarre concert.
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 11, 2024, 03:57:39 PMQuote from: The Brain on August 11, 2024, 03:55:49 PMTBF it's not like France has a lot of international superstars.
Should have just done a three hour Jean-Michel Jarre concert.
*affirmative Todd Rivers noises*
Quote from: Zoupa on August 11, 2024, 03:41:51 PMSomeone did just that and it changes very little:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GUuMn9XXgAE5NTv?format=png&name=900x900)
So the True and Real Rankings are
Etats Unis
Chine
Japon (!)
Australie
France
Pays Bas
Grand Bretagne relegated to the dustbin of history. :console:
Usually the DDR was up there with the best. Good to see South Korea making the top ten. It will soften the blow of all those balloons of dung North Korea are sending across the DMZ.
And this closing ceremony was among the worst things I've since Thor Heyerdahl opened the 1994 Winter Olympics.
Scientologeeeeee...!
They get the RHCP and don't play californication?
Quote from: Josquius on August 11, 2024, 04:51:07 PMThey get the RHCP and don't play californication?
They did play it. But that second song was very unnecessary.
Glad California could do it's part to inject some enthusiasm to this dreary, Gallic nonsense. :usa:
Epyx' Summer Games and Winter Games on C64 counted Gold = 5 points, Silver = 3 points, Bronze = 1 point. And I seem to recall that in the 80s that's also how it was counted in German media at least.
Quote from: The Brain on August 11, 2024, 03:48:06 PMHonest question: do Americans refer to silver and bronze medallists as Olympic champions?
They are referred to as Silver and Bronze Medalists. Because that is what they are.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 11, 2024, 03:37:18 PMQuote from: Valmy on August 11, 2024, 03:26:37 PMHow it is counted wrong? Yes. We do total medals which isn't perfect, but vastly preferable to just pretending this isn't the Olympics but some other event where only first matters.
Dude, that's all of life.
True. There is no silver medal for the Super Bowl Loser.
But the Olympics is different.
Quote from: Valmy on August 11, 2024, 10:30:40 PMTrue. There is no silver medal for the Super Bowl Loser.
But the Olympics is different.
Can you name any silver medalist from previous Olympics?
The only one I can name is the US mens' basketball team that lost to the Bulgarian refs.
Quote from: Valmy on August 11, 2024, 10:29:16 PMQuote from: The Brain on August 11, 2024, 03:48:06 PMHonest question: do Americans refer to silver and bronze medallists as Olympic champions?
They are referred to as Silver and Bronze Medalists. Because that is what they are.
Good. But do Americans think that the Olympics suggest they are champions, which Americans disagree with?
Quote from: ValmyThe Olympics is entirely organized around the concept that 2nd and 3rd place are also champions, obviously not as prestigious as Gold, but still.
Quote from: Maladict on August 11, 2024, 05:04:08 PMQuote from: Josquius on August 11, 2024, 04:51:07 PMThey get the RHCP and don't play californication?
They did play it. But that second song was very unnecessary.
Did they?
I remember by the way and can't stop.
Maybe my broadcast cut another?
Quote from: Josquius on August 12, 2024, 01:03:21 AMDid they?
I remember by the way and can't stop.
Maybe my broadcast cut another?
No, you are correct. I probably willed it to be Californication, too
The USA has hundreds of medalist in all sorts of sports. Having a majority of them enter the public consciousness is an un realistic expectation.
Canada doesn't. We remember our silver and bronze medalist vividly.
I remember the Quebec based one more. People like Nicolas Gill the first Judo medalist. He won Bronze in 92 and Silver in 2000.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 11, 2024, 10:42:40 PMCan you name any silver medalist from previous Olympics?
The only one I can name is the US mens' basketball team that lost to the Bulgarian refs.
I remember when Beth Heiden won a bronze in 1980.
Although it may have something to do with her last name.
Quote from: Grey Fox on August 12, 2024, 05:31:22 AMThe USA has hundreds of medalist in all sorts of sports. Having a majority of them enter the public consciousness is an un realistic expectation.
Canada doesn't. We remember our silver and bronze medalist vividly.
I remember the Quebec based one more. People like Nicolas Gill the first Judo medalist. He won Bronze in 92 and Silver in 2000.
To be honest I barely remember any medalists from Olympics to Olympics.
Like my interest in speed climbing, it is intense and very, very transitory :lol:
For the folks who thinks that winning a silver and bronze isn't a big deal, here is the Serbian basketball team celebrating their medal.
https://www.instagram.com/reel/C-ftYjaszw1/?igsh=MTMzZjlqYjFiOWl5dQ==
I remember a number of Canadian medallist who didn't win gold. Including Gary MacDonald, Silver in Montreal for swimming. Came back to his hometown of Mission, and he was my swim coach for a couple of years, so I have a special reason for remembering him. :)
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 12, 2024, 09:21:36 AMTo be honest I barely remember any medalists from Olympics to Olympics.
Unless you are a true super star like 1980s Flo Jo, Carl Lewis, Mary Lou Retton, and 2020s Michael Phelps and Simone Biles you get quickly forgotten except in your little corner of the sports world.
Absolutely love this stuff :lol: (Like the 1 in 3 men - I think in America - who thought they could win a set against Serena Williams or the what animals could you beat in a fight):
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GUnS7dpW0AA-t2M?format=jpg&name=900x900)
Walked around today thinking of every 16 people I passed in the street, 1 of them thinks that if they started training now they could make the LA Olympics team as a 100m sprinter. Admirably mad.
Another area where it sucks to be British.
If only I was from San Marino I could have my pick of whatever international sports I fancied.
Plus presumably good food.
Shit weather though.
One word. Breakdancing. :contract: :P
For those that haven't seen :D
:lol:
That should take the edge off Shelf and Squeeze's Aussie insecurity.
Quote from: HVC on August 12, 2024, 02:36:08 PMFor those that haven't seen :D
I love Raygun :lol:
I genuinely think this might be an academic exercise in cultural studies autoethnography. Or perhaps just a really good example of don't send a 36 year old with a PhD in breakdancing to compete against 16 year olds :lol:
The rest of the breakdancers were amazing and feel kind of bad they got a little overshadowed.
She has a PhD on breaking dancing? Well now I just lost some respect for PhDs :lol:
Quote from: HVC on August 12, 2024, 02:47:45 PMShe has a PhD on breaking dancing? Well now I just lost some respect for PhDs :lol:
I think it's safe to say it wasn't a primarily practical course of study.
Quote from: HVC on August 12, 2024, 02:47:45 PMShe has a PhD on breaking dancing? Well now I just lost some respect for PhDs :lol:
This is her thesis.
Deterritorializing gender in Sydney's breakdancing scene: a B-girl's experience of B-boying
QuoteThis thesis critically interrogates how masculinist practices of breakdancing offers a site for the transgression of gendered norms. Drawing on my own experiences as a female within the male-dominated breakdancing scene in Sydney, first as a spectator, then as an active crew member, this thesis questions why so few female participants engage in this creative space, and how breakdancing might be the space to displace and deterritorialise gender. I use analytic autoetthnography and interviews with scene members in collaboration with theoretical frameworks offered by Deleuze and Guttari, Butler, Bourdieu and other feminist and post-structuralist philosophers, to critically examine how the capacities of bodies are constituted and shaped in Sydney's breakdancing scene, and to also locate the potentiality for moments of transgression. In other words, I conceptualize the breaking body as not a 'body' constituted through regulations and assumptions, but as an assemblage open to new rhizomatic connections. Breaking is a space that embraces difference, whereby the rituals of the dance not only augment its capacity to deterritorialize the body, but also facilitate new possibilities for performativities beyond the confines of dominant modes of thought and normative gender construction. Consequently, this thesis attempts to contribute to what I perceive as a significant gap in scholarship on hip-hop, breakdancing, and autoethnographic explorations of Deleuze-Guattarian theory.
https://figshare.mq.edu.au/articles/thesis/Deterritorializing_gender_in_Sydney_s_breakdancing_scene_a_B-girl_s_experience_of_B-boying/19433291?file=34528847&fbclid=IwY2xjawEmblRleHRuA2FlbQIxMAABHVtWly8ZtJBK9R3XpG83ChQlhcRQ70euraBOAsFPS8Tg3y78ATjZz6QHag_aem__wXl3ZrV5zApVvDAgiZ4QQ
I was not aware her thesis had been autoethnography. She's 100% writing on this :lol:
A Kiwi comments :lol:
QuoteJemaine Clement
@AJemaineClement
I've been to Australia. That was their best dancer.
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 14, 2024, 08:39:32 AMA Kiwi comments :lol:
QuoteJemaine Clement
@AJemaineClement
I've been to Australia. That was their best dancer.
:lmfao:
The litigation against Musk and Rowling may have even more serious consequences for them. I had wrongly assumed it was a civil suit only. But a criminal compliant has also been made under France's cyber bullying legislation.
The French prosecutorial office will now get involved.
Yeah I am sure they are quaking in fear.
I would vote to extradite.
Quote from: Valmy on August 14, 2024, 10:41:46 PMYeah I am sure they are quaking in fear.
They may well not understand that life is not worth living if they can never again visit France.
Quote from: crazy canuck on August 14, 2024, 11:38:33 PMQuote from: Valmy on August 14, 2024, 10:41:46 PMYeah I am sure they are quaking in fear.
They may well not understand that life is not worth living if they can never again visit France.
17 Zoupa points to cc, just for that nugget of truth.
While I do not disagree with CC and Zoupa's main point, there may also be the additional complication that they'll have difficulties visiting countries with which France has extradition treaties.
I believe the US may, but is not required, to extradite its own citizens to foreign countries. I can imagine extraditing Musk from the US would turn into a massive political circus, which may make it unlikely. But if Musk visits somewhere in Europe - say his factory in Germany - he may be subject to extradition.
Not sure what the UK's stance is on extraditions, and to what degree extraditing Rowling could be controversial and how it'd affect the likelihood of it happening. But I expect going most places in the EU could be problematic (Hungary should be ok, though).
I think in Europe, based on Spain's struggles to extradite the Catalan independence leaders, it all depends on whether there is an equivalent crime on the books. Not sure if there is for cyberbullying - I'm fairly sure there isn't in the UK (there's incitement but that's different).
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 15, 2024, 02:35:51 AMI think in Europe, based on Spain's struggles to extradite the Catalan independence leaders, it all depends on whether there is an equivalent crime on the books. Not sure if there is for cyberbullying - I'm fairly sure there isn't in the UK (there's incitement but that's different).
What about this?
https://www.met.police.uk/advice/advice-and-information/har/harassment-on-social-media/
General approach here, which that Met note is clarifying, is what's illegal offline is illegal online.
So harassment is basically stalking and malicious communications is like poison pen letters. A lot would depend on what the French cyberbullying law says, but bullying isn't a crime here and I'm not an expert and I've not followed it closely but I think the stalking/poison pen stuff requires targeting (@ me - or my friends, family etc). Worth adding, my understanding is that victims typically feel pretty unprotected from stalking until it's really bad.
I think it's not criminal but libel would be most likely to work like the Laurence Fox libel case.
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 15, 2024, 03:21:00 AMGeneral approach here, which that Met note is clarifying, is what's illegal offline is illegal online.
So harassment is basically stalking and malicious communications is like poison pen letters. A lot would depend on what the French cyberbullying law says, but bullying isn't a crime here and I'm not an expert and I've not followed it closely but I think the stalking/poison pen stuff requires targeting (@ me - or my friends, family etc). Worth adding, my understanding is that victims typically feel pretty unprotected from stalking until it's really bad.
I think it's not criminal but libel would be most likely to work like the Laurence Fox libel case.
On the bit in bold, remember if this hypothetical happened it wouldn't be on Met/CPS to investigate, charge and convict. ;)
Last two basketball games by team USA were fantastic fun. The last ride of the greats of the 2010s.
Frankly, I'm not confident in team USA's ability to repeat in 2028.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on August 15, 2024, 05:29:12 AMLast two basketball games by team USA were fantastic fun. The last ride of the greats of the 2010s.
Frankly, I'm not confident in team USA's ability to repeat in 2028.
As someone who doesn't follow basketball at all I was surprised to learn a lot of the teams in the final rounds are mostly made up of players in the NBA.
I was also surprised to see the US actually had the best players- I had thought the general rule was that the US didn't care too much about basketball in the olympics.
But still, America are leagues above being the only country that really cares.
A quick google and I see 22% of the NBA are foreign- which is higher than expected but still a minority.
Quote from: Zoupa on August 15, 2024, 12:08:44 AMQuote from: crazy canuck on August 14, 2024, 11:38:33 PMQuote from: Valmy on August 14, 2024, 10:41:46 PMYeah I am sure they are quaking in fear.
They may well not understand that life is not worth living if they can never again visit France.
17 Zoupa points to cc, just for that nugget of truth.
:yeah:
Quote from: Josquius on August 15, 2024, 05:32:05 AMQuote from: jimmy olsen on August 15, 2024, 05:29:12 AMLast two basketball games by team USA were fantastic fun. The last ride of the greats of the 2010s.
Frankly, I'm not confident in team USA's ability to repeat in 2028.
As someone who doesn't follow basketball at all I was surprised to learn a lot of the teams in the final rounds are mostly made up of players in the NBA.
I was also surprised to see the US actually had the best players- I had thought the general rule was that the US didn't care too much about basketball in the olympics.
No. We take basketball in the Olympics very seriously. We have won every Gold Medal but four (and one of those was 1980) in men's basketball and every gold medal but three (and one of those was 1980) in women's basketball. And we have sent our best players every year since 1988.
QuoteBut still, America are leagues above being the only country that really cares.
A quick google and I see 22% of the NBA are foreign- which is higher than expected but still a minority.
No we are not the only country that really cares. Sure Basketball may not be the most popular sport in most countries...but it isn't the most popular sport in America either.
But you know what country Basketball is the most popular sport? China. I hear that is another country besides the United States that exists.
Quote from: Josquius on August 15, 2024, 05:32:05 AMQuote from: jimmy olsen on August 15, 2024, 05:29:12 AMLast two basketball games by team USA were fantastic fun. The last ride of the greats of the 2010s.
Frankly, I'm not confident in team USA's ability to repeat in 2028.
As someone who doesn't follow basketball at all I was surprised to learn a lot of the teams in the final rounds are mostly made up of players in the NBA.
I was also surprised to see the US actually had the best players- I had thought the general rule was that the US didn't care too much about basketball in the olympics.
But still, America are leagues above being the only country that really cares.
A quick google and I see 22% of the NBA are foreign- which is higher than expected but still a minority.
Jos,
If you don't know anything about something, it's probably not wise to express an opinion about it.
Quote from: Valmy on August 15, 2024, 10:05:39 AMNo we are not the only country that really cares. Sure Basketball may not be the most popular sport in most countries...but it isn't the most popular sport in America either.
But you know what country Basketball is the most popular sport? China. I hear that is another country besides the United States that exists.
Chinese people like the NBA. Their domestic basketball setup doesn't seem to be producing too many stars. They didn't get anywhere at the Olympics.
For whatever reason China seems to seriously underperform in team sports.
The paralympics is on.
Anyone bothered?
Much coverage round your way?
Caught myself thinking it's pretty grim but I imagine due to obvious reasons of a fresh supply of a lot of disabled fit young men Ukraine are doing pretty well.
Checking up... 11th in the "official" table but joint third in number of medals.
Yeah always watch the Paralympics - and Channel 4 are doing really well this year.
People I know who watched and bought tickets for the Olympics are also caring for the Paralympics. Mind you, they mostly live in Paris so might as well have a look it, with all the transportation network disturbances.
I pay about the same amount af attention - which is to say, I mostly ignore it, but enjoy the occasional feel-good story when it bubbles up.
Sooo.... Those swimmers with no arms doing the back stroke.
So I see wrong or do they absolutely smash their heads into the wall at the end....
This is sweet. Female Belgian shot putter/hammer thrower subs in to save hurdle team from disqualification.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 05, 2024, 09:39:25 PM
This is sweet. Female Belgian shot putter/hammer thrower subs in to save hurdle team from disqualification.
That's from a while ago iirc
Yeah, I remember when that happened.
I like that she runs like she's wearing heels and trying to get out of the rain.
Have to say though, surely its hard to find a less appropriate athlete for the hurdles than a shot putter? Wonder if it was a bit of a joke.