With things looking dark and fascism on the rise across a large chunk of the world, an obvious question emerges.
Imagine your country is next in the firing line - for some of us little imagining required - things are turning very very bad. For some reason you imagine you will be amongst those to suffer.
What is your escape plan? Realistically where would you go?
Imagining here a world where everything is as it is today but your particular country goes a bit Gilead.
New Zealand is probably your best bet. It's left off world maps so often they might not even be hit by any nukes.
Quote from: Josquius on June 28, 2024, 04:06:12 AMWith things looking dark and fascism on the rise across a large chunk of the world, an obvious question emerges.
Imagine your country is next in the firing line - for some of us little imagining required - things are turning very very bad. For some reason you imagine you will be amongst those to suffer.
What is your escape plan? Realistically where would you go?
Imagining here a world where everything is as it is today but your particular country goes a bit Gilead.
I assume you mean political mess, not war.
Back to Eastern Europe. If I have to live in a fascist state it is safer to live in one where I am part of the ethnic majority.
Quote from: Maladict on June 28, 2024, 04:57:21 AMNew Zealand is probably your best bet. It's left off world maps so often they might not even be hit by any nukes.
Kind of tough immigration rules though? Also not a great economy I hear.
And leaning a bit that way itself.
Menos mal que nos queda Portugal works for me as well, obviously. :smarty:
Rural, ranch life with my gun-toting relatives.
The Hawk Tuah girl will save us
Quote from: FunkMonk on June 28, 2024, 06:18:07 AMThe Hawk Tuah girl will save us
In our darkest time, in our hour of need, she will come forth and spit on that thang.
Hawk Tuah!
I'm pretty fucked as I don't have any viable getaways, but I'm a white male so I expect to be on the opressing side. I can hide/exaggerate my Catalan accent depending on which strand of local nastiness ends up on top.
Independance.
Porn Hub
I am fortunate that I'm a remote employee working for a British multinational with many offices worldwide. The company did a very good job of relocating all Ukrainian and Russian employees in the immediate wake of the invasion, so I know they'd be willing to work with me on moving.
I'd likely head to Canada or the UK.
Quote from: Josephus on June 28, 2024, 09:41:20 AMPorn Hub
Banned in Texas :cry:
There will be no escape in porn for me.
Quote from: Valmy on June 28, 2024, 10:33:23 AMQuote from: Josephus on June 28, 2024, 09:41:20 AMPorn Hub
Banned in Texas :cry:
There will be no escape in porn for me.
In the state of freedom? :o
Quote from: HVC on June 28, 2024, 10:37:24 AMIn the state of freedom? :o
A casualty of the culture war.
Sorry to have brought things down. I deleted my prior response. It's just... very, very rough right now. :(
If Austria were to go the way of Hungary ... I assume my out would be going back to Germany.
Quote from: Sophie Scholl on June 28, 2024, 11:09:33 AMSorry to have brought things down. I deleted my prior response. It's just... very, very rough right now. :(
:hug:
So I low-key hate this kind of question. It keys in on years and years or tropes of Americans saying that if Bush/McCain/Romney/Trump win the US election "they'll move to Canada". And no one does.
Or on the flip side - that Russia is claiming that tons of people want to move there to preserve "traditional values".
So look - if you're fearing out-and-out persecution that you think qualifies you as a refugee, then flee. Flee now. I want you to be safe.
But if you're just really uncomfortable with the direction of your government - stay and fight as part of the democratic process. If your government isn't a democracy - fight with whatever means you have.
But look - I dread a second Trump term and I'm not even American. But that's more for the effects that would have world-wide then for the effects on the US itself. So the idea of fleeing to keep you and your family safe isn't really accomplishing much of anything. If your family is all you're worried about it's not that hard to "get along" in an entirely fascist country.
Because finally - it's actually really hard to move countries. Canada (or wherever) won't just welcome you with open arms because you don't like Trump/Orban/whomever.
Now - if you want to talk about an escape plan in case of nuclear war/climate holocaust/the Rapture/zombies I'm all for it...
(p.s. Tamas - you moved many years ago for very legitimate economic reasons, not just spite about Orban, so this is in no way directed at you)
Unfortunately, I don't think any country accepts trans people for refugee status.
Quote from: Sophie Scholl on June 28, 2024, 11:24:39 AMUnfortunately, I don't think any country accepts trans people for refugee status.
And right now, June 28, 2024 they shouldn't and trans people are pretty much accepted in the US.
If that changes then flee.
Edit:
I'm not saying to be blase about what happens in yours (or any) country. I'm just arguing for the "fight" response in the "fight or flight" dichotomy.
The only issue that currently bothers me is the weird police state atmosphere the Texas government is creating regarding abortion. As my kids get older we will have to think about how we manage that.
But as stated previously, I have no intention of ever leaving.
But if my kids feel differently, I will follow them.
Quote from: Barrister on June 28, 2024, 11:21:35 AMBecause finally - it's actually really hard to move countries. Canada (or wherever) won't just welcome you with open arms because you don't like Trump/Orban/whomever.
:yeah:
Quote from: Barrister on June 28, 2024, 11:29:53 AMQuote from: Sophie Scholl on June 28, 2024, 11:24:39 AMUnfortunately, I don't think any country accepts trans people for refugee status.
And right now, June 28, 2024 they shouldn't and trans people are pretty much accepted in the US.
If that changes then flee.
Edit:
I'm saying to be blase about what happens in yours (or any) country. I'm just arguing for the "fight" response in the "fight or flight" dichotomy.
I'm assuming you meant "not saying" here.
I understand your position, but I don't think situations or plans are binary. On the trans rights issue, it's clear that there is a growing problem on a state-by-state basis. It's not "flee the US"-bad
yet, but based on what some states have done there is a realistic path towards that if the wrong elements gain higher-level power. I agree with you that it's best to try to resist those elements, but in this kind of slow burn situation I think it also makes sense to have contingency plans in case you and your allies lose that fight.
I don't necessarily see the question of "where would you go" as defeatist, but more along the lines of "Do you have a contingency plan?".
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on June 28, 2024, 11:47:28 AMQuote from: Barrister on June 28, 2024, 11:29:53 AMQuote from: Sophie Scholl on June 28, 2024, 11:24:39 AMUnfortunately, I don't think any country accepts trans people for refugee status.
And right now, June 28, 2024 they shouldn't and trans people are pretty much accepted in the US.
If that changes then flee.
Edit:
I'm saying to be blase about what happens in yours (or any) country. I'm just arguing for the "fight" response in the "fight or flight" dichotomy.
I'm assuming you meant "not saying" here.
I understand your position, but I don't think situations or plans are binary. On the trans rights issue, it's clear that there is a growing problem on a state-by-state basis. It's not "flee the US"-bad yet, but based on what some states have done there is a realistic path towards that if the wrong elements gain higher-level power. I agree with you that it's best to try to resist those elements, but in this kind of slow burn situation I think it also makes sense to have contingency plans in case you and your allies lose that fight.
I don't necessarily see the question of "where would you go" as defeatist, but more along the lines of "Do you have a contingency plan?".
The "not" was left out and edited in before I even saw your post.
Yeah, so I'm definitely not in the camp of "it's the Jews fault for dying in the holocaust because they didn't fight the Nazis" - just to go to the ludicrous extreme.
But there's the other extreme - don't go fleeing your country because you disagree with the marginal tax rate, or because you disagree with abortion policy (although you're past child-bearing years), or whatever really annoying or stupid policy you dislike but doesn't actually put you in any actual danger.
Like I said - if you're in actual danger - then protect yourself. But if it's just bad policy - fight.
Thankfully I escaped to a foreign land years ago. California might be crazy, dysfunctional, weird, and full of people, but it will be the last bastion to fall.
Quote from: Barrister on June 28, 2024, 11:56:13 AMThe "not" was left out and edited in before I even saw your post.
Yeah, so I'm definitely not in the camp of "it's the Jews fault for dying in the holocaust because they didn't fight the Nazis" - just to go to the ludicrous extreme.
But there's the other extreme - don't go fleeing your country because you disagree with the marginal tax rate, or because you disagree with abortion policy (although you're past child-bearing years), or whatever really annoying or stupid policy you dislike but doesn't actually put you in any actual danger.
Like I said - if you're in actual danger - then protect yourself. But if it's just bad policy - fight.
I get that, and I know there are a lot of people who flippantly talk about "fleeing" over things that are unpleasant for them but don't actually affect them much. My point was just that thinking about, and possibly taking concrete preparatory steps for, flight before you are in actual danger (but when the potential is realistic) is something you should do in parallel with fighting to keep that danger from materializing.
In short, what I'm saying is fight, but plan your escape route in case you lose.
Quote from: PDH on June 28, 2024, 12:01:46 PMThankfully I escaped to a foreign land years ago. California might be crazy, dysfunctional, weird, and full of people, but it will be the last bastion to fall.
Yeah the extent of my escape would be to Maryland or something.
But they will have to drive me out pretty aggressively.
Quote from: Barrister on June 28, 2024, 11:56:13 AMBut there's the other extreme - don't go fleeing your country because you disagree with the marginal tax rate,
Someone should tell the wealthy.
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 28, 2024, 12:41:47 PMQuote from: Barrister on June 28, 2024, 11:56:13 AMBut there's the other extreme - don't go fleeing your country because you disagree with the marginal tax rate,
Someone should tell the wealthy.
I just did.
Yes.
However, I do not know many (i.e., zero) people who moved because of "an annoying or stupid policy". Tax havens are a known problem.
Quote from: Sophie Scholl on June 28, 2024, 11:24:39 AMUnfortunately, I don't think any country accepts trans people for refugee status.
I'm not sure that's true. I'm pretty sure I've heard of some in the UK.
Though this is of course people from absolute shit holes rather than first world countries that went insane.
I'd imagine if things did get very dark In a country then that would open up though.
Quote from: Valmy on June 28, 2024, 12:26:25 PMQuote from: PDH on June 28, 2024, 12:01:46 PMThankfully I escaped to a foreign land years ago. California might be crazy, dysfunctional, weird, and full of people, but it will be the last bastion to fall.
Yeah the extent of my escape would be to Maryland or something.
But they will have to drive me out pretty aggressively.
If Baltimore is your plan B then Texas must be worse off than I imagined :D
Quote from: Sophie Scholl on June 28, 2024, 11:24:39 AMUnfortunately, I don't think any country accepts trans people for refugee status.
I'm sorry, I should know this...but where are you?
Quote from: HVC on June 28, 2024, 03:40:28 PMQuote from: Valmy on June 28, 2024, 12:26:25 PMQuote from: PDH on June 28, 2024, 12:01:46 PMThankfully I escaped to a foreign land years ago. California might be crazy, dysfunctional, weird, and full of people, but it will be the last bastion to fall.
Yeah the extent of my escape would be to Maryland or something.
But they will have to drive me out pretty aggressively.
If Baltimore is your plan B then Texas must be worse off than I imagined :D
Crab cakes will make the urban decay worth it.
Quote from: Josephus on June 28, 2024, 03:49:45 PMQuote from: Sophie Scholl on June 28, 2024, 11:24:39 AMUnfortunately, I don't think any country accepts trans people for refugee status.
I'm sorry, I should know this...but where are you?
I'm in the US. The same US that has trans people as their top boogeyman tied with illegal immigrants. The same US that has one political party actively trying, and often succeeding, in passing laws restricting and banning people like me from existing.
If federal laws are passed that refuse to allow me access to estrogen, I'm as good as dead already as I no longer produce reproductive hormones of my own. I once had to go without for a month due to needle shortages during the pandemic and that was before the changeover. It nearly killed me then. I can't imagine what it would do to me now. :(
Bootlicking and turning in dissenters.
Quote from: FunkMonk on June 28, 2024, 06:18:07 AMThe Hawk Tuah girl will save us
:yes: She will bring balance to that thing.
If I were to immigrate somewhere, I'd go to Canada since I have a job in Toronto. I have no plans to immigrate, and, in fact, have been trying to avoid doing that for the last two years. ;)
If it were a flee the country type scenario, it would be quickest for me to head to Fort Pierce, charter a boat and head to the Bahamas.
The Bahamas?
Would you go buccaneer? :pirate
The idea any of you would need an escape plan is fake and dumb.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on June 30, 2024, 03:21:33 PMThe idea any of you would need an escape plan is fake and dumb.
What if the Hamas controlled dems take over? :ph34r:
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on June 30, 2024, 03:21:33 PMThe idea any of you would need an escape plan is fake and dumb.
Yeah? Well what happens if I wait too long and Baltimore closes its borders?
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 28, 2024, 12:55:02 PMYes.
However, I do not know many (i.e., zero) people who moved because of "an annoying or stupid policy". Tax havens are a known problem.
We do know that relocation services have been doing a booming business in France catering to business elites looking for a bolthole if the Melenchon bloc gets into government.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on June 30, 2024, 03:21:33 PMThe idea any of you would need an escape plan is fake and dumb.
Not all of us believe that the empower American Nazis to save Israel plan will work as smoothly as you do.
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 28, 2024, 12:55:02 PMYes.
However, I do not know many (i.e., zero) people who moved because of "an annoying or stupid policy". Tax havens are a known problem.
You must have met a number of people who fled the US in the late 60s to early 70s.
I had a number of professors who fit that description.
Quote from: HVC on June 30, 2024, 03:30:44 PMQuote from: OttoVonBismarck on June 30, 2024, 03:21:33 PMThe idea any of you would need an escape plan is fake and dumb.
What if the Hamas controlled dems take over? :ph34r:
It shouldn't be too hard to blend in either way. It's "Allahu Akbar Death to Israel" vs. "Jews will not replace us." Six of one, half dozen of the other.
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 30, 2024, 06:57:41 PMYou must have met a number of people who fled the US in the late 60s to early 70s.
I had a number of professors who fit that description.
In Canada? I am a bit younger, and there were not many ex-Americans teaching in French...
The only one I met (and knew about her story) was the late Natalie Zemon Davis. Americans teaching at McGill when I was there tended to be conservative (or too young to have fled anything).
In any case, fleeing the draft, or McCarthyism feel somewhat different than fleeing "a stupid policy" - at least how I understood BB's point.
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 30, 2024, 06:57:41 PMQuote from: Oexmelin on June 28, 2024, 12:55:02 PMYes.
However, I do not know many (i.e., zero) people who moved because of "an annoying or stupid policy". Tax havens are a known problem.
You must have met a number of people who fled the US in the late 60s to early 70s.
I had a number of professors who fit that description.
Those people are idiots if they were fleeing the Vietnam era draft. Anyone with two functioning brain cells could get deferments or exemptions or other shit to get out of that.
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 30, 2024, 10:53:11 PMQuote from: crazy canuck on June 30, 2024, 06:57:41 PMYou must have met a number of people who fled the US in the late 60s to early 70s.
I had a number of professors who fit that description.
In Canada? I am a bit younger, and there were not many ex-Americans teaching in French...
The only one I met (and knew about her story) was the late Natalie Zemon Davis. Americans teaching at McGill when I was there tended to be conservative (or too young to have fled anything).
In any case, fleeing the draft, or McCarthyism feel somewhat different than fleeing "a stupid policy" - at least how I understood BB's point.
In what way is it different? These were people who, as Otto so eloquently pointed out would have been eligible to avoid the draft. But they left because they objected to the policies of the US.
We also see something similar in healthcare where US physicians come to Canada because they can no longer operate the profit driven care model in the US.
These numbers are low of course, but it us not accurate to say the hat nobody ever leaves the US over policy.
However the same thing is true in reverse. We have had people leave for the US for similar but reverse reasons. Including health care professionals where some would prefer the policy choices the US has made so that they can make more money.
My parents told me the other week when I was visiting them in Jersey that my uncle recently bought a bunch of land in Costa Rica. :hmm:
There were certainly some actual draft dodgers that fled to Canada, a lot of them young men who just didn't know the system likely--there really were a lot of ways out of the draft. Sure, some were more open to the sons of privilege, but sometimes just doing some work to find a friendly doctor (which isn't something only open to the rich) could get you a Trump bone spurs exemption.
Also, you could just play the draft smart. Buddy of mine's dad was kind of a wash out in college, he got to senior year then dropped out, he was essentially going to be drafted imminently I believe because of how his deferments expired and etc. He just went to a Navy recruiter and was able to get some sort of plum MOS, I don't really know the specifics of how it worked back in 1970, but it was still possible then to volunteer into a role that was very unlikely to result in a combat deployment. He served out his enlistment in Italy.
A much older cousin than me also had a bad draft number and just signed up to join the Air Force, he served out the war as an mechanic in Thailand. Actually getting put into infantry and sent to patrol the jungles largely required a complete absence of imagination or forethought.
Certainly some number of people just left the U.S. out of distaste for American policy more than a genuine fear of being drafted / inability to avoid it.
Quote from: Caliga on July 01, 2024, 11:15:22 AMMy parents told me the other week when I was visiting them in Jersey that my uncle recently bought a bunch of land in Costa Rica. :hmm:
I mean you might just want to move there anyway :)
Quote from: Valmy on July 01, 2024, 12:48:19 PMQuote from: Caliga on July 01, 2024, 11:15:22 AMMy parents told me the other week when I was visiting them in Jersey that my uncle recently bought a bunch of land in Costa Rica. :hmm:
I mean you might just want to move there anyway :)
He's got a hankering for Latinas :yes:
I was thinking more about other kinds of scenery :P
(https://hemispheretravel.com/images/costa-rica-enews.jpg)
Besides Cal is married -_-
Can't speak on his uncle though :lol:
Depending on what the calamity driving relocation is, possible options are:
Ottawa or Toronto if we are talking major West Coast earthquake or attacks on the Pacific Coastline.
Rural BC if we are talking all cities under attack - but I'm not much of a survivalist so it's probably a bit of a stretch unless it's a general thing done in BC.
Denmark (and the EU) if it's a Canada or North America specific calamity. I suppose we could seek to enter the US if it was just Canada that got fucked, but we don't have any particular advantage there I don't think.
If the entire Western world was fucked, I suppose we have a bit of a chance to go to the PRC - but it would have to be a pretty unique and terrible combination of events for that to seem a good idea.
Quote from: Valmy on July 01, 2024, 12:55:59 PMI was thinking more about other kinds of scenery :P
(https://hemispheretravel.com/images/costa-rica-enews.jpg)
Besides Cal is married -_-
Can't speak on his uncle though :lol:
I was thinking the uncle, but I dint think Cal would be adverse to a well endowed latin lady :D
Quote from: Valmy on June 30, 2024, 05:56:35 PMQuote from: OttoVonBismarck on June 30, 2024, 03:21:33 PMThe idea any of you would need an escape plan is fake and dumb.
Yeah? Well what happens if I wait too long and Baltimore closes its borders?
I'll sponsor your visa, hon. HE'S WIFF ME
Quote from: Josquius on June 28, 2024, 04:06:12 AMWith things looking dark and fascism on the rise across a large chunk of the world, an obvious question emerges.
Imagine your country is next in the firing line - for some of us little imagining required - things are turning very very bad. For some reason you imagine you will be amongst those to suffer.
What is your escape plan? Realistically where would you go?
Imagining here a world where everything is as it is today but your particular country goes a bit Gilead.
Not doing anything about my spiraling blood pressure.
Quote from: Valmy on July 01, 2024, 12:48:19 PMI mean you might just want to move there anyway :)
My cousin already did. Apparently he's working as a model for surfware companies. :hmm:
Quote from: Valmy on July 01, 2024, 12:55:59 PMBesides Cal is married -_-
Can't speak on his uncle though :lol:
He's married. My aunt is like two years older than me. :D
edit: Forgot to mention that they're separated though
My escape plan remains Iceland. If it's a zombie apocalypse then I'm good. We did very well through covid. Let's say the Left-Greens acquire a pure parliamentary majority (instead of being on the verge of extinction), well I register my domicile in Norway and hop on over there. Annoying, but not really a setback. If it's WW III I retire to the family land which has a second home cottage and room for a lot of agriculture.
Quote from: Legbiter on July 08, 2024, 03:15:49 PMMy escape plan remains Iceland. If it's a zombie apocalypse then I'm good. We did very well through covid. Let's say the Left-Greens acquire a pure parliamentary majority (instead of being on the verge of extinction), well I register my domicile in Norway and hop on over there. Annoying, but not really a setback. If it's WW III I retire to the family land which has a second home cottage and room for a lot of agriculture.
If it's a zombie apocalypse, it's a good idea to move there, I'll keep that in mind. :P
If it's some kind of totalitarian soft take over, I'm slowly preparing for the worst. You never know when the commies are gonna take over here, so I might be inclined to move in some warmer country. Or just shoot myself.
Quote from: Legbiter on July 08, 2024, 03:15:49 PMMy escape plan remains Iceland. If it's a zombie apocalypse then I'm good. We did very well through covid. Let's say the Left-Greens acquire a pure parliamentary majority (instead of being on the verge of extinction), well I register my domicile in Norway and hop on over there. Annoying, but not really a setback. If it's WW III I retire to the family land which has a second home cottage and room for a lot of agriculture.
Wait...do you not live in Iceland?
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 01, 2024, 07:05:32 PMQuote from: Valmy on June 30, 2024, 05:56:35 PMQuote from: OttoVonBismarck on June 30, 2024, 03:21:33 PMThe idea any of you would need an escape plan is fake and dumb.
Yeah? Well what happens if I wait too long and Baltimore closes its borders?
I'll sponsor your visa, hon. HE'S WIFF ME
Thanks pal. I could finally live out my days eating crab cakes and duckpin bowling.
Quote from: Legbiter on July 08, 2024, 03:15:49 PMMy escape plan remains Iceland. If it's a zombie apocalypse then I'm good. We did very well through covid. Let's say the Left-Greens acquire a pure parliamentary majority (instead of being on the verge of extinction), well I register my domicile in Norway and hop on over there. Annoying, but not really a setback. If it's WW III I retire to the family land which has a second home cottage and room for a lot of agriculture
So this official languish holiday cottage in Iceland....