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General Category => Off the Record => Topic started by: Josquius on September 04, 2023, 04:24:55 AM

Poll
Question: What is the first day of the week?
Option 1: Sunday votes: 11
Option 2: Monday votes: 18
Option 3: Thursday votes: 0
Option 4: Day 1. votes: 0
Title: What is the first day of the week?
Post by: Josquius on September 04, 2023, 04:24:55 AM
I've got this bloody annoying song stuck in my head.....
Title: Re: What is the first day of the week?
Post by: Sheilbh on September 04, 2023, 04:55:15 AM
Monday :goodboy:
Title: Re: What is the first day of the week?
Post by: Zanza on September 04, 2023, 05:07:37 AM
Monday
Title: Re: What is the first day of the week?
Post by: Grey Fox on September 04, 2023, 06:14:58 AM
Sunday, you goddamn Napoleonites.
Title: Re: What is the first day of the week?
Post by: mongers on September 04, 2023, 06:27:12 AM
Quote from: Josquius on September 04, 2023, 04:24:55 AMI've got this bloody annoying song stuck in my head.....

Try mashing it between two bricks.
Title: Re: What is the first day of the week?
Post by: HVC on September 04, 2023, 06:28:01 AM
Portuguese makes it easy by calling Monday (literally) the second day.
Title: Re: What is the first day of the week?
Post by: Duque de Bragança on September 04, 2023, 08:10:20 AM
Quote from: HVC on September 04, 2023, 06:28:01 AMPortuguese makes it easy by calling Monday (literally) the second day.

The crypto Judeo-Moor beat me to it.  :P Portuguese and Greek use numbered week days.
From liturgical Latin in the Portuguese case, obviously.
Title: Re: What is the first day of the week?
Post by: Maladict on September 04, 2023, 09:14:51 AM
Monday
Title: Re: What is the first day of the week?
Post by: Josephus on September 04, 2023, 09:49:13 AM
Same in Maltese. Monday is it-tnejn, literally "the second"
Title: Re: What is the first day of the week?
Post by: Tamas on September 04, 2023, 09:52:54 AM
Monday. End of story.
Title: Re: What is the first day of the week?
Post by: Sheilbh on September 04, 2023, 09:59:34 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on September 04, 2023, 06:14:58 AMSunday, you goddamn Napoleonites.
We should return to the Republican calendar :(

(Obviously 3-4 days off).
Title: Re: What is the first day of the week?
Post by: Tamas on September 04, 2023, 10:22:00 AM
I think even in the day of St. Stephen, Sunday was considered the last day of the week when you go to Church and don't do anything.
Title: Re: What is the first day of the week?
Post by: The Brain on September 04, 2023, 12:32:21 PM
The Lord God rested after his labors. Not before.
Title: Re: What is the first day of the week?
Post by: grumbler on September 04, 2023, 12:36:52 PM
For those languages that have Sunday as literally "first day," does the weekend include "First Day?" Or does the term used for "weekend" in English not imply in those languages that those two days are at the end of the week?

These kinds of language differences are fun.
Title: Re: What is the first day of the week?
Post by: HVC on September 04, 2023, 12:49:27 PM
For Portuguese Sunday is Domingo, lords day. Saturday is Sabado (sabbath)


*edit* they do use "fim de semana", which means end of the week. But I don't know if that's a traditional thing or relatively new.

Edit 2 the rest of the week is:

segunda-feira
terca-feira
quarta-feira
quinta-feira
sexta-feira


2nd day, 3rd day, etc.
Title: Re: What is the first day of the week?
Post by: HVC on September 04, 2023, 12:56:47 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 04, 2023, 04:55:15 AMMonday :goodboy:

Bad Christian. God rested on the 7th day, sabbath. :P
Title: Re: What is the first day of the week?
Post by: viper37 on September 04, 2023, 01:14:31 PM
Quote from: Josquius on September 04, 2023, 04:24:55 AMI've got this bloody annoying song stuck in my head.....
What song?


Title: Re: What is the first day of the week?
Post by: Duque de Bragança on September 04, 2023, 01:21:04 PM
Quote from: grumbler on September 04, 2023, 12:36:52 PMFor those languages that have Sunday as literally "first day," does the weekend include "First Day?" Or does the term used for "weekend" in English not imply in those languages that those two days are at the end of the week?

These kinds of language differences are fun.

Not that French uses Sunday as literally first day, but fin de semaine and week-end more often that not mean different things.
Fin de semaine = Thursday and Friday
Week-end Saturday and Sunday  :P

Fin de semaine is still sometimes a synonym of week-end, however. Yes, it's not clear at all.
Vacancelles, a once proposed synonym, never made it to common use.
Title: Re: What is the first day of the week?
Post by: viper37 on September 04, 2023, 01:30:14 PM
Quote from: HVC on September 04, 2023, 12:56:47 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 04, 2023, 04:55:15 AMMonday :goodboy:

Bad Christian. God rested on the 7th day, sabbath. :P
Shabbat (UK: /ʃəˈbæt/, US: /ʃəˈbɑːt/, or /ʃəˈbʌt/; Hebrew: שַׁבָּת, romanized: Šabbāṯ, [ʃa'bat], lit. 'rest' or 'cessation') or the Sabbath (/ˈsæbəθ/), also called Shabbos (UK: /ˈʃæbəs/, US: /ˈʃɑːbəs/) by Ashkenazim, is Judaism's day of rest on the seventh day of the week—i.e., Saturday.


I don't know...  We inherited a day's rest to worship the Lord, but it's unclear if it's the last day of the week or the first day of the week for Catholics.


QuoteRoman Catholicism
In the Latin Church, Sunday is kept in commemoration of the resurrection of Jesus and celebrated with the Eucharist.[74][75] The Lord's Day is considered both the first day and the "eighth day" of the week, symbolizing both first creation and new creation (2174).[75] Roman Catholics view the first day as a day for assembly for worship.[76][75] In the spirit of the Sabbath, Catholics ought to observe a day of rest from servile work, which also becomes "a day of protest against the servitude of work and the worship of money."[77] This day is traditionally observed on Sunday in conjunction with the Lord's Day.[78][79]

But more importantly:
QuoteIn 1998 Pope John Paul II wrote an apostolic letter Dies Domini, "on keeping the Lord's day holy". He encouraged Catholics to remember the importance of keeping Sunday holy, urging that it not lose its meaning by being blended with a frivolous "weekend" mentality.

So, there you go.  No frivolous weekend mentality for good Catholics. Whatever that means. :sleep:
Title: Re: What is the first day of the week?
Post by: Sheilbh on September 04, 2023, 01:32:12 PM
I feel like English would have a similar distinction. End of the week fees like Thursday-Friday and I think used like that, but is different than weekend.
Title: Re: What is the first day of the week?
Post by: Duque de Bragança on September 04, 2023, 01:50:34 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 04, 2023, 01:32:12 PMI feel like English would have a similar distinction. End of the week fees like Thursday-Friday and I think used like that, but is different than weekend.

Fim da semana vs fim de semana in Portuguese.

Definite vs indefinite.
Title: Re: What is the first day of the week?
Post by: PJL on September 04, 2023, 02:23:23 PM
Quote from: Jacob on September 04, 2023, 02:21:25 PM
Quote from: HVC on September 04, 2023, 12:56:47 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 04, 2023, 04:55:15 AMMonday :goodboy:

Bad Christian. God rested on the 7th day, sabbath. :P

Which falls on Saturday....

Saturday as a free non-working day is a modern late 19th century invention (and even then it was originally a half-day). Sunday was always a day of rest. Unless you're Jewish, in which case it is Saturday.
Title: Re: What is the first day of the week?
Post by: Josquius on September 04, 2023, 02:28:00 PM
Surprised so many do Sunday.
I'd thought it was largely a Christian fundamentalist originated (from Judaism) quirk that was semi common in the US.

As to the song... An annoying Americans kids song that sounds very Christian and starts with Sunday.
Title: Re: What is the first day of the week?
Post by: Jacob on September 04, 2023, 02:33:48 PM
Quote from: PJL on September 04, 2023, 02:23:23 PMSaturday as a free non-working day is a modern late 19th century invention (and even then it was originally a half-day). Sunday was always a day of rest.

Well... since the Council of Laodicea in 321 CE, for Christians. However, the decision appears to have been (quoting wikipedia here) "that the commandment of God is no more valid, now being needed to follow the commandments of people". So even if you venerate your god on Sunday, it appears that move was for the convenience of rulers not god's word.

This is, of course, applicable for those who base the week on the word of Abraham's god - Saturday is the seventh day.

Personally I'm secular so I base the week start on the end of the weekend. But if it's about god's day of rest, then Saturday is the end of the week.
Title: Re: What is the first day of the week?
Post by: Josquius on September 04, 2023, 02:41:49 PM
Pretty sure the early Christians changed it explicity to differentiate themselves from the Jews no?
Title: Re: What is the first day of the week?
Post by: viper37 on September 04, 2023, 05:04:35 PM
Quote from: Josquius on September 04, 2023, 02:41:49 PMPretty sure the early Christians changed it explicity to differentiate themselves from the Jews no?
The day to worship God gradually changed to Sunday from Saturday with the advent of Christianity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbath_in_Christianity

ISO recognizes Monday as the first day of the week.  US, Canada and Japan recognizes Sunday as the first day of the week.
Title: Re: What is the first day of the week?
Post by: Tamas on September 04, 2023, 06:40:51 PM
Quote from: Josquius on September 04, 2023, 02:28:00 PMSurprised so many do Sunday.
I'd thought it was largely a Christian fundamentalist originated (from Judaism) quirk that was semi common in the US.

As to the song... An annoying Americans kids song that sounds very Christian and starts with Sunday.

I am surprised anyone can consider Sunday the start of the week. Isn't to called weekend for crying out loud? Why would the first day of the week be a day off right after the last day of the previous week? Abslotuely makes no sense.
Title: Re: What is the first day of the week?
Post by: Valmy on September 04, 2023, 06:44:36 PM
Sunday is the first day of the week.

Quote from: Tamas on September 04, 2023, 06:40:51 PMI am surprised anyone can consider Sunday the start of the week. Isn't to called weekend for crying out loud? Why would the first day of the week be a day off right after the last day of the previous week? Abslotuely makes no sense.

Well it just has been that way my entire life. Every calendar I have ever owned has Sunday as the first day.

As far as not making any sense...it is completely arbitrary which day is the first day so it doesn't have to.
Title: Re: What is the first day of the week?
Post by: Tamas on September 04, 2023, 06:47:15 PM
So when you heathens say weekend you only mean Saturday?
Title: Re: What is the first day of the week?
Post by: Sheilbh on September 04, 2023, 06:51:11 PM
Quote from: Tamas on September 04, 2023, 06:47:15 PMSo when you heathens say weekend you only mean Saturday?
Those Protestants. Up to no good as usual.
Title: Re: What is the first day of the week?
Post by: grumbler on September 04, 2023, 07:13:01 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 04, 2023, 06:44:36 PMWell it just has been that way my entire life. Every calendar I have ever owned has Sunday as the first day.

As far as not making any sense...it is completely arbitrary which day is the first day so it doesn't have to.

Calendars are set up that way with the work week bracketed by non-workdays for esthetic reasons.  They aren't reflecting a philosophical argument about what the first day of the week is.

For me, the "week ends with a weekend" argument is most compelling, but I'm not committed to the idea that Monday is the first day.  For me, it's just a fun matter of semantics.
Title: Re: What is the first day of the week?
Post by: Valmy on September 04, 2023, 10:53:34 PM
Quote from: grumbler on September 04, 2023, 07:13:01 PMCalendars are set up that way with the work week bracketed by non-workdays for esthetic reasons.  They aren't reflecting a philosophical argument about what the first day of the week is.

Eh, well that's as good a reason as any.
Title: Re: What is the first day of the week?
Post by: Valmy on September 04, 2023, 10:54:12 PM
Quote from: Tamas on September 04, 2023, 06:47:15 PMSo when you heathens say weekend you only mean Saturday?

Yes. On Sunday you are supposed to be in Church doing Gods work. Or something.
Title: Re: What is the first day of the week?
Post by: Rex Francorum on September 05, 2023, 12:12:22 AM
Monday. Even if our calendar doesn't say so.
Title: Re: What is the first day of the week?
Post by: Grey Fox on September 05, 2023, 06:20:18 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 04, 2023, 06:47:15 PMSo when you heathens say weekend you only mean Saturday?

Why would the weekend be a separate entity from the week instead of being part of it?
Title: Re: What is the first day of the week?
Post by: crazy canuck on September 05, 2023, 02:21:18 PM
Saturday is the weekend. Literally the end of the week.

This shows up in lots of ways. For example Saturday is a work day for the purposes of calculating days of notice in our interpretation act.

The end of the week (Saturday) is then of course followed by Sunday.  Historically that was a day of rest and all businesses were closed.  It's a recent development that a weekend was both days and both were days free of work.  That development has confused things a bit so now Sunday is considered the end of the week.  Which is also odd since now the end of the working week is actually Friday.




Title: Re: What is the first day of the week?
Post by: Josquius on September 05, 2023, 02:35:52 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on September 05, 2023, 06:20:18 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 04, 2023, 06:47:15 PMSo when you heathens say weekend you only mean Saturday?

Why would the weekend be a separate entity from the week instead of being part of it?

It isn't?
It's a sub part.
Title: Re: What is the first day of the week?
Post by: Valmy on September 05, 2023, 03:42:31 PM
Well we just had Labor Day Weekend here in the US, and it includes Monday -_-
Title: Re: What is the first day of the week?
Post by: crazy canuck on September 05, 2023, 04:39:54 PM
Stat holidays are not part of the weekend
Title: Re: What is the first day of the week?
Post by: Grey Fox on September 05, 2023, 05:04:10 PM
Quote from: Josquius on September 05, 2023, 02:35:52 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on September 05, 2023, 06:20:18 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 04, 2023, 06:47:15 PMSo when you heathens say weekend you only mean Saturday?

Why would the weekend be a separate entity from the week instead of being part of it?

It isn't?
It's a sub part.

Tell that to Tamas.
Title: Re: What is the first day of the week?
Post by: Tamas on September 05, 2023, 05:15:07 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 05, 2023, 03:42:31 PMWell we just had Labor Day Weekend here in the US, and it includes Monday -_-

Gotcha. So Sunday is part of the weekEND. Ergo it cannot be the start of the week.
Title: Re: What is the first day of the week?
Post by: Tamas on September 05, 2023, 05:15:48 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on September 05, 2023, 05:04:10 PM
Quote from: Josquius on September 05, 2023, 02:35:52 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on September 05, 2023, 06:20:18 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 04, 2023, 06:47:15 PMSo when you heathens say weekend you only mean Saturday?

Why would the weekend be a separate entity from the week instead of being part of it?

It isn't?
It's a sub part.

Tell that to Tamas.

My point exactly. The weekend as its name suggest is the end of the week. So Sunday is the end of the week.
Title: Re: What is the first day of the week?
Post by: HVC on September 05, 2023, 06:39:13 PM
Just add "work" before weekend and you can see the light, Tamas  P
Title: Re: What is the first day of the week?
Post by: grumbler on September 05, 2023, 08:59:17 PM
Quote from: HVC on September 05, 2023, 06:39:13 PMJust add "work" before weekend and you can see the light, Tamas  P

So the work week isn't part of the week in your reckoning?  I'm sure that I don't understand.

In USA English, Sunday is part of the weekend.  When someone says "first thing next week, we will need to talk" they are not expecting the talk to take place on Sunday.

But I know that different languages don't even use the equivalent of "weekend" so it would seem that the first day of the week is different in different cultures, which is fine.  There's no need for something so subjective to be universal.
Title: Re: What is the first day of the week?
Post by: Valmy on September 06, 2023, 10:07:42 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 05, 2023, 05:15:07 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 05, 2023, 03:42:31 PMWell we just had Labor Day Weekend here in the US, and it includes Monday -_-

Gotcha. So Sunday is part of the weekEND. Ergo it cannot be the start of the week.

So Tuesday is the first day of the week!