Languish.org

Long story short, rental e-scooters are not popular over here, dropped randomly on pavements, killing or maiming pedestrians, crowding even more busses or métros etc.
Of course, the current mayor, Hidalgo, is not exactly popular with too many last-minute works in the streets for the Olympics next year and degraded public transportation networks, rubbish strike, etc. She may have chosen already, (contracts are ending soon and may not be renewed) and just looking at an excuse to ban them.

Still, some other like to see them as "soft and green mobility".

What does Languish say?
https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20230402-paris-votes-on-ban-for-rental-e-scooters (https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20230402-paris-votes-on-ban-for-rental-e-scooters)

As a driver those things terrify me. Way too many riders jump red lights or come at you from blind spots with nary a thought.

That been said, I think they are a very useful tool in urban mobility. I just feel there should be some regulation involved (license, insurance).

It's not about banning ALL e-scooters just rental e-scooters, which have the worst drivers.
I'm not sure more regulation and strict enforcement (good luck with that) would be enough but it would help, of course.

We don't have them where I live but the one problem I can relate to is lack of parking.  I would like to see dedicated docking racks.

On bad driving I have no opinion.

Where I live actually owning them I believe is still illegal (many have them though) but rental ones exist and always attract the ire of certain old moaners.

There's always a big clump of them not far from my place where the operator  arbitrarily decided beyond here is too poor for them.

Never tried them myself though. Too much of a faff to setup the app.

They're lasting well where rental bikes didn't. Which is curious. Doubt they're profitable.

As to the poll... I'm a sort of I between yes leaning person. They're not adding anything amazing and aren't worth going to special efforts to setup but they're prefectly fine that they do exist.
Could probably use better safeguards to stop kids driving them and link sightings of stupid users to who had them at the time, with actual prosecutions/fines.

I find them annoying and ridiculous, but I'm not sure whether that's just me being a cranky old guy yelling at clouds or whether my feelings are based on anything worthwhile.

My main issue with them is the social impact of all the associated accidents and medical costs from the injuries, both to 'riders' and to sometimes unlucky pedestrians.

Personally I'm against them because our local bus company has now banned them from being taken/carried on buses and in the process also banned people carrying small folding bikes, which is rather annoying for me as that's part of my transport arrangements.

By default, I am against these ideas of transportation being app ran imported from  Southern California tech bros who are mostly bad for our non-American communities.

I think that e-scooters are a technology that hasn't been fully thought through.  A quick scan of some articles indicates that their safety record shows that they are something like 5 times more likely to have an accident than a pedal bicycle used in the same way.  And bicycles themselves are frequently used by reckless flaming assholes, so I can't imagine what some of these scooter users must be like to be that much worse.

Quote from: Jacob on April 02, 2023, 02:58:30 PMI find them annoying and ridiculous, but I'm not sure whether that's just me being a cranky old guy yelling at clouds or whether my feelings are based on anything worthwhile.

Same :lol: :ph34r:

QuoteI think that e-scooters are a technology that hasn't been fully thought through.  A quick scan of some articles indicates that their safety record shows that they are something like 5 times more likely to have an accident than a pedal bicycle used in the same way.  And bicycles themselves are frequently used by reckless flaming assholes, so I can't imagine what some of these scooter users must be like to be that much worse.

I think there's a scale issue with that. It's broadly pretty true in London for sure - but then very different in countries where cycling has reached critical mass like the Netherlands and Denmark. I think as long as roads are perceived as risky unsafe you need to have a certain level of, maybe, aggression or something to cycle on them. Which attracts the MAMILs out working off their stress.

Once roads feel safe - and the biggest difference is segregated cycle lanes - then families, women, tubby middle aged men not in lycra, kids start cycling and it changes the mood of the experience for everyone.

There are not many of them in my town but they are noticeable because the proportion of users that are arseholes is incredibly high....perhaps as high as 50%  :o

Quote from: Sheilbh on April 02, 2023, 08:17:13 PMMAMIL

 :hmm:

Middle aged man in lycra.

Quote from: Sheilbh on April 03, 2023, 04:45:54 AMMiddle aged man in lycra.

I wouldn't have guessed that acronym if my life depended of it.  :lol:

Just limit their top speed to something like 15 kph. Then they're still useful to get around but slow enough to avoid most serious accidents. And most importantly, they won't be cool enough for the people causing most of the accidents.

Quote from: Maladict on April 03, 2023, 05:03:20 AMJust limit their top speed to something like 15 kph. Then they're still useful to get around but slow enough to avoid most serious accidents. And most importantly, they won't be cool enough for the people causing most of the accidents.

They get tricked out anyway.

Quote from: The Larch on April 03, 2023, 05:27:46 AM

Quote from: Maladict on April 03, 2023, 05:03:20 AMJust limit their top speed to something like 15 kph. Then they're still useful to get around but slow enough to avoid most serious accidents. And most importantly, they won't be cool enough for the people causing most of the accidents.

They get tricked out anyway.

Rentals?

Quote from: Maladict on April 03, 2023, 06:33:37 AM

Quote from: The Larch on April 03, 2023, 05:27:46 AM

Quote from: Maladict on April 03, 2023, 05:03:20 AMJust limit their top speed to something like 15 kph. Then they're still useful to get around but slow enough to avoid most serious accidents. And most importantly, they won't be cool enough for the people causing most of the accidents.

They get tricked out anyway.

Rentals?

No, I meant regular ones. Over here several people have been caught with tricked out e-scooters that are able to go much faster thna legally allowed.

Quote from: The Larch on April 03, 2023, 06:34:36 AM

Quote from: Maladict on April 03, 2023, 06:33:37 AM

Quote from: The Larch on April 03, 2023, 05:27:46 AM

Quote from: Maladict on April 03, 2023, 05:03:20 AMJust limit their top speed to something like 15 kph. Then they're still useful to get around but slow enough to avoid most serious accidents. And most importantly, they won't be cool enough for the people causing most of the accidents.

They get tricked out anyway.

Rentals?

No, I meant regular ones. Over here several people have been caught with tricked out e-scooters that are able to go much faster thna legally allowed.

Sure, but the same goes for regular scooters , mopeds and the like. You'll have to enforce it, just like you'd have to enforce the ban.

Quote from: The Larch on April 03, 2023, 04:56:34 AM

Quote from: Sheilbh on April 03, 2023, 04:45:54 AMMiddle aged man in lycra.

I wouldn't have guessed that acronym if my life depended of it.  :lol:

Visions of Horror... :yuk:  :lol:

Results in Paris:

https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20230402-parisians-vote-to-ban-for-hire-e-scooter-rentals-from-french-capital (https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20230402-parisians-vote-to-ban-for-hire-e-scooter-rentals-from-french-capital)

QuoteParisians voted Sunday in a referendum to ban self-service e-scooter rentals in the French capital. While they have become commonplace since they were first introduced in 2018, a rising accident toll has hardened attitudes towards the "trottinette".

Results from the Paris mayor's office showed that nearly 90 percent of votes in a citywide referendum had been cast in favour of the ban, a decision which Mayor Anne Hidalgo has promised to respect.

Self-service e-scooters have become commonplace on the streets of Paris since they were first introduced five years ago, but irresponsible use and a rising accident toll have hardened city hall's attitude towards the popular mode of transport, which can be rented by the hour and picked up and dropped off anywhere.

When Paris introduced self-service e-scooter rentals in 2018, the city became a world leader in embracing the new mode of transport. The trottinette was billed as a green alternative to cars. Their adoption was spurred by permissive regulation and the rapid expansion of bike lanes in the capital.

But just five years later, Paris residents were asked to vote in a referendum on whether to ban the e-scooter rentals after a spate of accidents prompted safety concerns.

Walking home from a picnic on the banks of the Seine in August 2022, Justine Haley was crossing a set of traffic lights when she was hit by an e-scooter. "I didn't see it at all and I didn't hear it," says the hairdresser in her 40s. "I just remember the power of the scooter hitting my leg, and I fell to the floor on my side."

As a friend helped Justine get up, the driver who hit her stopped to ask if she was OK and, when Justine said she was, swiftly drove away. "She didn't wait to see, and I didn't realise how bad it was because I must have gone into shock."

Incidents like Justine's are common. Almost 500 people were injured in the capital by micro-mobility vehicles in 2022. At the hospital, she says the doctor who treated her was "really tired of it – I could see it in his face. He said he was dealing with trottinette accidents nearly every day."

In 2022, deaths among e-scooter drivers and pedestrians hit by e-scooters increased in the capital. In France, e-scooters caused at least 27 deaths in 2022, compared with 22 in 2021 and 7 in 2020.

Even so, the scooters are still hugely popular. Usage soared in the wake of the pandemic, jumping 90 percent from September 2021 to August 2022. Each vehicle is currently used an average of 3.5 times a day �in Paris – the highest rate of any city in Europe.

Despite the risks, citywide bans are rare. Barcelona is among the few European cities to have introduced and then prohibited self-service e-scooters altogether – a move Hidalgo now favours.

'Not very ecological'

"They're honestly not very ecological – they get damaged and they are left lying wherever," Hidalgo told national television channel France 2 in January. "We can't contain them in public spaces and they're causing road safety problems, especially for older and disabled people."

Safety issues date back to their bumpy introduction in 2018. "It was a mess," says Erwann le Page, public policy director at Tier – one of three self-service providers (along with Lime and Dott) now licensed in Paris. "You had over 20,000 scooters and around 20 different companies operating them."

The sudden influx of scooters – with no dedicated parking spaces and few rules around usage – caused chaos for pedestrians, cyclists and cars.


Since then, Paris has tried to regulate the issue. The fleet is now capped at 15,000 vehicles. Speed limits, fines for misuse and dedicated parking zones have been introduced.

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The three providers – Tier, Lime and Dott – have also stepped in with technological innovations to enforce regulations. Geofencing, for instance, can automatically reduce vehicle speeds in certain zones and charge users for parking in undesignated areas.

With multi-passenger e-scooters now involved in one in five accidents in Paris, technologies are also in the pipeline to prevent two people riding a scooter at the same time.

The pace of improvement has been rapid and there is the potential for more, le Page says. "Our industry didn't exist five years ago. The speed of improvements over the last five years beats 50 years of evolution of cars."

But for now, problems still persist. Dangerously parked scooters are commonplace and accidents are rising year on year.

Soviet-style results.  :P

A great example of the sort of thing that is terrible to put to a referendum.

Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on April 03, 2023, 02:06:22 AMThere are not many of them in my town but they are noticeable because the proportion of users that are arseholes is incredibly high....perhaps as high as 50%  :o

Maybe the jerk bicycle riders have switched to scooters, and that explains the vast disparity in accident rates.  :lol:

The escooters are/were huge in Austin but they just looked really dangerous so I tended to avoid both using them and their users. Flying down the roads in a dense and car heavy urban environment at high-ish speed with nothing between me and the pavement but my skill as a scooter driver seemed like a bad idea.

Also has a UT sports fan we have had multiple athletes have season ending injuries on those scooters earning their ire from Alumni throughout the world.

Quote from: Valmy on April 03, 2023, 10:54:37 AMAlso has a UT sports fan we have had multiple athletes have season ending injuries on those scooters earning their ire from Alumni throughout the world.

 :lol:

Feel free to create a poll about banning e-scooters (rental or not) for athletes.  :P

Quote from: Josquius on April 03, 2023, 10:26:36 AMA great example of the sort of thing that is terrible to put to a referendum.

With 90% agreement it seems like a referendum wad the way to go.

Quote from: HVC on April 03, 2023, 11:32:20 AM

Quote from: Josquius on April 03, 2023, 10:26:36 AMA great example of the sort of thing that is terrible to put to a referendum.

With 90% agreement it seems like a referendum wad the way to go.

No?
Basically any niche thing that people never really think about but when pressed say is a mild nuisance would get similar results in a referendum.
It's an exercise in over the top reactions to petty nonsense.
If the city didn't like them they could have just far more cheaply ran some research to check the strength of public opinion and banned them without needing a referendum.

Logically that is of course. Maybe (hopefully) there's some weird local law which forces a referendum?

But if they tried the weird bicycle people would complain that the government was picking on them for no reason  (as the do in Toronto all the time) . How expensive was it in comparison to study and polling and another study to verify the first, then concil meetings ad nauseum?

If it was a feferendum to ban downtown cars you'd  be all for it :P

Quote from: HVC on April 03, 2023, 02:12:45 PMBut if they tried the weird bicycle people would complain that the government was picking on them for no reason  (as the do in Toronto all the time) . How expensive was it in comparison to study and polling and another study to verify the first, then concil meetings ad nauseum?

No idea.
But in general referenda are expensive. You don't run them for petty things. That's why we have elected politicians in the first place.
I can imagine running such a study for way under 100k including consultant markup.

QuoteIf it was a feferendum to ban downtown cars you'd  be all for it :P

Another example of where referenda are the wrong way to go as that vote would likely fail.
There you're talking about a broad concept involving an activity most people do. They would just see it as a loss and not consider it as part of the holistic gain such actions usually are.
obviously doing this would be  for the best and politicians should use their mandate to do it:p

I used them quite a bit when I was living in the US.

They were useful because few cities in the US have a municipal rental bike scheme - because few cities in the US are ever willing to invest in cycling infrastructure, or, when they do, they under-invest, so you have a few stands scattered around limited parts of the city, often as a tourist scheme rather than a commuting scheme.

So, I used them the same way I would have used such a service - whenever I changed plans and felt like I needed to get faster to my destination, or to get to the train/metro station, or whenever I felt it was actually faster than using the (under-funded) public transportation, or whenever I didn't want to get worried about having my bicycle stolen, or when I needed to get somewhere and not get super sweaty under Midwestern high humidity, etc.

Obviously, I needed to use some discernment about where to ride them, and I usually took the more residential streets to get to my destination rather than the more direct, and usually more dangerous, routes. But considering how clueless many American drivers are re: cyclists on the road (many apparently thinking cyclists are required to be on the sidewalk),I did the same while cycling.

I just use my bike

Quote from: Oexmelin on April 03, 2023, 10:45:18 PMI used them quite a bit when I was living in the US.

They were useful because few cities in the US have a municipal rental bike scheme - because few cities in the US are ever willing to invest in cycling infrastructure, or, when they do, they under-invest, so you have a few stands scattered around limited parts of the city, often as a tourist scheme rather than a commuting scheme.

So, I used them the same way I would have used such a service - whenever I changed plans and felt like I needed to get faster to my destination, or to get to the train/metro station, or whenever I felt it was actually faster than using the (under-funded) public transportation, or whenever I didn't want to get worried about having my bicycle stolen, or when I needed to get somewhere and not get super sweaty under Midwestern high humidity, etc.

Obviously, I needed to use some discernment about where to ride them, and I usually took the more residential streets to get to my destination rather than the more direct, and usually more dangerous, routes. But considering how clueless many American drivers are re: cyclists on the road (many apparently thinking cyclists are required to be on the sidewalk),I did the same while cycling.

:cool:

Oexy, thanks for the real world feedback; I might have to reconsider the utility they might offer me.

Though in all likelyhood I'd be put off by the small wheels, more than happy to go from 700mm/26inch down to 20in wheels, but given the state of UK roads, I don't think I'd want ro rely on e-scooter sized wheels/tyres.

Hi Oex!

Fuckers are speed demon death traps in the Urban Jungle.

I downloaded the apps (easy to use at least for Bird, Spin and Link) and took a few for a spin; I figured in the event I missed my shuttle to the parking garage, or needed to zip across campus for a meeting, I could hop on one of these.

I mean, if swarms of 22 year old 145lb Chinese postgrads can zip around on them all day like it's the Tiananmen 500, I suppose I could handle it, right? 

Each hand brake controls each wheel independently, but the throttle is on your right thumb.  If you're not careful and totally uncoordinated, you might grab the brake and hit the accelerator at the same time.  Then you'll get to do what I did:  lose control, smack a curb, perform a Triple Lindy over the handlebar and wrap yourself around a light pole. Apparently I no longer hop like I used to.

You should be fine, Mongers.  You're used to bicycle controls, and they're slow enough for you to take a dump on the side of the road without much effort.

Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 04, 2023, 11:15:58 AMEach hand brake controls each wheel independently, but the throttle is on your right thumb.  If you're not careful and totally uncoordinated, you might grab the brake and hit the accelerator at the same time.  Then you'll get to do what I did:  lose control, smack a curb, perform a Triple Lindy over the handlebar and wrap yourself around a light pole. Apparently I no longer hop like I used to.

(https://media.tenor.com/UYcSdn1eZuUAAAAM/judges-south-park.gif)

Those are incredibly gracious scores considering the dismount.

So these things should be kept as evolution aids?

Quote from: grumbler on April 04, 2023, 01:40:49 PMSo these things should be kept as evolution aids?

Fuck yeah. I'll take one for the team if the rest of the herd manages to get culled in the process.

Bring back lawn darts.

Definitely think there's a culling effect in place. I have two buddies who took up e-scootering who both had pretty serious spills. One gave it up and got an e-bike instead. The other continued and had a second spill - he's just coming back part time at work after having been on disability for 6+ months from the concussion.

Quote from: Jacob on April 04, 2023, 02:57:04 PMDefinitely think there's a culling effect in place. I have two buddies who took up e-scootering who both had pretty serious spills. One gave it up and got an e-bike instead. The other continued and had a second spill - he's just coming back part time at work after having been on disability for 6+ months from the concussion.

Unless you've got one and have had extensive practice on them, I really think they're for young, lithe people. Little shits.

Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 04, 2023, 11:15:58 AMFuckers are speed demon death traps in the Urban Jungle.

I downloaded the apps (easy to use at least for Bird, Spin and Link) and took a few for a spin; I figured in the event I missed my shuttle to the parking garage, or needed to zip across campus for a meeting, I could hop on one of these.

I mean, if swarms of 22 year old 145lb Chinese postgrads can zip around on them all day like it's the Tiananmen 500, I suppose I could handle it, right? 

Each hand brake controls each wheel independently, but the throttle is on your right thumb.  If you're not careful and totally uncoordinated, you might grab the brake and hit the accelerator at the same time.  Then you'll get to do what I did:  lose control, smack a curb, perform a Triple Lindy over the handlebar and wrap yourself around a light pole. Apparently I no longer hop like I used to.

You should be fine, Mongers.  You're used to bicycle controls, and they're slow enough for you to take a dump on the side of the road without much effort.

Good to hear from you CdM.

No, I don't think it's an issue of skill/controls, but the braking; it's trivially easy make brakes that stop these scooters within a very short distance, but given the riding/standing position, how on earth does the person avoid becoming a airborne missile before impacting the thing you're trying to avoid and/or the ground?