Languish.org

durka

I can see a combination of 5 and 6.  You're trying to be funny, but if a lot of black folk say it's a miss, you apologize and walk it back.

1. Black people get to make up their own rules for acceptable use by black people and I'm not gonna make any commentary on that.

2. In my opinion, it's impossible to teach history in the United States, particularly but not limited to the black experience and the civil rights movement, without using the word to accurately portray the black experience.

For just one instance, let's take Lee Atwater on the Southern Strategy:

Quote from: Lee AtwaterYou start out in 1954 by saying, 'Nigger, nigger, nigger.' By 1968 you can't say 'nigger' -- that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states' rights and all that stuff. You're getting so abstract now [that] you're talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you're talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is [that] blacks get hurt worse than whites.

And subconsciously maybe that is part of it. I'm not saying that. But I'm saying that if it is getting that abstract, and that coded, that we are doing away with the racial problem one way or the other. You follow me -- because obviously sitting around saying, 'We want to cut this,' is much more abstract than even the busing thing, and a hell of a lot more abstract than 'Nigger, nigger."

If you write that out with "n-word", it loses a lot imo.

3. For jokes, find something else to talk about.

Can we not have the n-word on the front page of a publicly accessible forum, please?

Thank you.

A new low for Yi.  If anyone is moderating this forum anymore please delete this thread.

The standard overwrought by CC.

Quote from: ulmont on February 07, 2022, 12:33:48 PM
1. Black people get to make up their own rules for acceptable use by black people and I'm not gonna make any commentary on that.

2. In my opinion, it's impossible to teach history in the United States, particularly but not limited to the black experience and the civil rights movement, without using the word to accurately portray the black experience.

For just one instance, let's take Lee Atwater on the Southern Strategy:

Quote from: Lee AtwaterYou start out in 1954 by saying, 'Nigger, nigger, nigger.' By 1968 you can't say 'nigger' -- that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states' rights and all that stuff. You're getting so abstract now [that] you're talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you're talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is [that] blacks get hurt worse than whites.

And subconsciously maybe that is part of it. I'm not saying that. But I'm saying that if it is getting that abstract, and that coded, that we are doing away with the racial problem one way or the other. You follow me -- because obviously sitting around saying, 'We want to cut this,' is much more abstract than even the busing thing, and a hell of a lot more abstract than 'Nigger, nigger."

If you write that out with "n-word", it loses a lot imo.

3. For jokes, find something else to talk about.

Agree with all points.

I've basically tapped out.

I don't use the term myself, in any context.

If it's used around me, my reaction depends on context - but my reaction is mostly going to be silent rather than one of discourse. If someone's obviously a racist, I'll probably ignore them / remove myself/ avoid patronizing their business - but I probably won't talk about it. If they're being massively racist and I'm going to confront them, I'll probably focus on something other than the use of the n-word.

If it's something more nuanced - say a public figure used it and it's a controversy, or if Admiral Yi gets called out for using the word itself rather than using "n-word" - I'll basically mostly ignore it, but quietly go with what seems to be the consensus of black folks around. But I'm not going to enforce or challenge or argue about it. At most, maybe, I'll make a quip or ask a pointed question but that's it. I'm ready to say "it makes me uncomfortable" but not go to "so therefore you should stop". On the other hand, I'm not going say "other people shouldn't tell you to stop" either.

EDIT: ... and, it turns out, if requested I'll edit out the actual word in the thread title and repalce it with "n-word".

Quote from: Syt on February 07, 2022, 12:40:48 PM
Can we not have the n-word on the front page of a publicly accessible forum, please?

Thank you.

Fair request. Edited.

:cheers: Thanks, Jake.

Quote from: Jacob on February 07, 2022, 12:51:40 PM

Quote from: Syt on February 07, 2022, 12:40:48 PM
Can we not have the n-word on the front page of a publicly accessible forum, please?

Thank you.

Fair request. Edited.

Thanks.

I wish that no one would use it.

Black people have not come to that conclusion.

Quote from: Jacob on February 07, 2022, 12:51:40 PM

Quote from: Syt on February 07, 2022, 12:40:48 PM
Can we not have the n-word on the front page of a publicly accessible forum, please?

Thank you.

Fair request. Edited.

Much better.

The intention is what matters.


However....it is a fraught term, and given how toxic the term is, there aren't a lot of contexts where it is ever appropriate. And chances are that if you find yourself asking yourself if you ought to use the term, the answer is almost certainly "No".


But I also think it is one of those things where there is a desire by some to use its use itself as a weapon to cancel people they simply do not like.


I don't actually think (and by that I mean I am highly skeptical) anyone listening to some old Rogan podcast and how (as far as I can tell) he used the term is genuinely offended, rather then simply recognising that this is a useful weapon to use against someone they don't like. If someone else they did like used the term in the same context, it would be unremarked and uncared about.

Quote from: Syt on February 07, 2022, 12:40:48 PM
Can we not have the n-word on the front page of a publicly accessible forum, please?

Thank you.

"Hi boss, just browsing the web on my break. Oh, what's that on my screen?

Oh, oh no."

Quote from: ulmont on February 07, 2022, 12:33:48 PMIn my opinion, it's impossible to teach history in the United States, particularly but not limited to the black experience and the civil rights movement, without using the word to accurately portray the black experience.

I think it is quite possible - because the experience of racism isn't entirely contained within that word. That being said, its persistance, and prevalence, including in hip hop (or The Wire, or so many other cultural productions) means that students require some form of explanation about it.

As someone who does teach this, I'll certainly have students read material which contains it, but I will not utter it. Or, at least, I have managed to do so, so far. Now that I am back to teaching in French, the problem isn't entirely the same. I suspect there are people in academia who bristle against this as a form of censorship, but yet at the same time, who also want to experience the frisson of the transgressive.

Quote from: Berkut on February 07, 2022, 01:38:39 PM
The intention is what matters.


However....it is a fraught term, and given how toxic the term is, there aren't a lot of contexts where it is ever appropriate. And chances are that if you find yourself asking yourself if you ought to use the term, the answer is almost certainly "No".


But I also think it is one of those things where there is a desire by some to use its use itself as a weapon to cancel people they simply do not like.


I don't actually think (and by that I mean I am highly skeptical) anyone listening to some old Rogan podcast and how (as far as I can tell) he used the term is genuinely offended, rather then simply recognising that this is a useful weapon to use against someone they don't like. If someone else they did like used the term in the same context, it would be unremarked and uncared about.

I agree that from a pragmatic perspective, just don't use the word.  Even if you think you should be able to in certain contexts, sometimes discretion is the better part of valor.  If you do force the issue, though, then you're probably unwise, but that doesn't negate your rights.

It has been a number of years since I heard someone try use the argument that it is intent, not impact, that matters.

It leads to things like Yi thinking it was OK to post a word in the title of a thread where he ostensibly wanted to discuss if it is ever appropriate to use such a word.  Or maybe he was just being a dick.

It is also excuses all kinds of horrid behaviour.

Maybe calling someone a dick is not the best way to argue about how impact, rather then intent, matters?

Just a thought.

Quote from: Berkut on February 07, 2022, 02:42:59 PM
Maybe calling someone a dick is not the best way to argue about how impact, rather then intent, matters?

Just a thought.

I could ascribe worse motives for doing such a thing.  Stupidity, lack of awareness of how to act properly, maliciousness.  I think saying he was a dick about it is actually pretty minimal.

You missed the main point of my post though.  Your statement that it is intent that matters most is not correct.  You may want to read up on the topic a bit more before becoming too wed to that argument.

Quote from: crazy canuck on February 07, 2022, 02:48:08 PM

Quote from: Berkut on February 07, 2022, 02:42:59 PM
Maybe calling someone a dick is not the best way to argue about how impact, rather then intent, matters?

Just a thought.

I could ascribe worse motives for doing such a thing.  Stupidity, lack of awareness of how to act properly, maliciousness.  I think saying he was a dick about it is actually pretty minimal.

Ahhh, so Yi being a "dick" is your most charitable possible interpretation. I see. Such a gentleman.

Quote

You missed the main point of my post though.  Your statement that it is intent that matters most is not correct.  You may want to read up on the topic a bit more before becoming too wed to that argument.

It is what matters most to me, and this was a poll about what people think.

Your idea that other peoples opinion are "not correct" and you are so certain of this is not correct. You may want to just entertain the idea that your views on anything and everything are not *necessarily* always exactly and perfectly correct, and you might learn something from others if you approach conversation with more of an open mind.

Berkut, I am being generous with your lack of knowledge in this area.  I assume your confident assertion that is only intent that matters is born out of ignorance and not just being a dick.  I am less generous with Yi because what he did is not excusable.  He is smart enough to know that when that word should be used, if at all, is contentious (after all that is what he said his thread was about - and yet he used it in the title of the thread anyway.  Like I said, describing that as being a dick is the least I can do.

Yi is not the one being a dick.

Quote from: crazy canuck on February 07, 2022, 03:04:18 PM
Berkut, I am being generous with your lack of knowledge in this area.  I assume your confident assertion that is only intent that matters is born out of ignorance and not just being a dick.  I am less generous with Yi because what he did is not excusable.  He is smart enough to know that when that word should be used, if at all, is contentious (after all that is what he said his thread was about - and yet he used it in the title of the thread anyway.  Like I said, describing that as being a dick is the least I can do.

Gee, thanks for your generosity around my "lack of knowledge" and obvious ignorance.

After all, if someone does not agree with you, it must be because they are ignorant, or just a "dick". Don't even consider that perhaps your views may not encompass the entire set of all things non-ignorant and non-dickish around a contentious issue. Gosh no, don't even *consider* that possibility!

I never made any indication of confidence, nor did I assert anything beyond my own understanding of my own opinion about what *I* think is important, to me, when *I* decide whether or not the use of some word is acceptable.

https://youtu.be/S4pSp3Km6Mw

Quote from: crazy canuck on February 07, 2022, 03:04:18 PM
Berkut, I am being generous with your lack of knowledge in this area.  I assume your confident assertion that is only intent that matters is born out of ignorance and not just being a dick.  I am less generous with Yi because what he did is not excusable.  He is smart enough to know that when that word should be used, if at all, is contentious (after all that is what he said his thread was about - and yet he used it in the title of the thread anyway.  Like I said, describing that as being a dick is the least I can do.

There's nothing so simultaneously amusing and pathetic as the self-proclaimed expert trying to act the intellectual snob, as this post amply demonstrates.  I notice that yo have reworded Berkut's argument into "only intent that matters" way from his actual contention that "the intention is what matters."  I am being generous with your lack of capacity to discern what is honest intellectual discourse.

Some thought would lead the reasonable person to conclude that Yi was being deliberately meta with his thread title.  His intent, I believe, was to see if, indeed, the mere use of the word in a thread title would induce panic and reflexive horror.  Knowing that, his title doesn't particularly bother me, though I'd never use such a title myself.  Because, after all, it is the intention that matters.  One can only control intent.  Impact is in the hands of others.

Quote from: Zoupa on February 07, 2022, 05:16:19 PM
https://youtu.be/S4pSp3Km6Mw

Go ahead Zoups, we won't judge you - if you want to say it, just go right ahead.

About 20 years ago, an aide to the mayor of DC use the word "niggardly" to describe a budget item.  Someone in the mayor's office was unaware that there was such a word, assumed that the aide had dropped the N-word, and filed a complaint.  The aide was forced to resign.

Fair to the aide, or not?  He certainly had no intention of dropping the N-word, but the impact was as though he had used the word deliberately.  CC thinks that his forced resignation was fair, because it had an impact as though the N-word had been used.  Berkut thinks that the forced resignation was unfair, because there was no intent to use the n-word. 

What say you?

Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 07, 2022, 12:15:04 PM
durka

I can see a combination of 5 and 6.  You're trying to be funny, but if a lot of black folk say it's a miss, you apologize and walk it back.

It shouldn't be a problem in historical context.  Soon enough, I think we will see stories about Antebellum South where a master adress his slave as mister because the 'n' word is too offensive.

Imho, just like "savage" for indians.  French colonizers referred to First Nations as "sauvage" in their contemporary texts, if writing an historical story, for book or tv/movie, or discussing an ancient text, it shouldn't be frown upon, it shouldn't result on cancellation, no matter the color of the skin.  Just like we don't mind describing Gauls & Germans as barbarians when discussing Roman history; it's all Greek & Romans referred to outsiders. 

Forbidding the use of the 'n' word for whatever reason is just stupid.  It always depends on the context.

Quote from: crazy canuck on February 07, 2022, 02:39:59 PM
It has been a number of years since I heard someone try use the argument that it is intent, not impact, that matters.

Funny how so many Canadians seem to diverge on this.

N*word: The impact matters!
discrimination vs French speakers throughout the country: Only the intent matters!

Very... curious, that line of thought. :)

Quote from: Oexmelin on February 07, 2022, 01:43:16 PM

Quote from: ulmont on February 07, 2022, 12:33:48 PMIn my opinion, it's impossible to teach history in the United States, particularly but not limited to the black experience and the civil rights movement, without using the word to accurately portray the black experience.

I think it is quite possible - because the experience of racism isn't entirely contained within that word. That being said, its persistance, and prevalence, including in hip hop (or The Wire, or so many other cultural productions) means that students require some form of explanation about it.

As someone who does teach this, I'll certainly have students read material which contains it, but I will not utter it. Or, at least, I have managed to do so, so far. Now that I am back to teaching in French, the problem isn't entirely the same. I suspect there are people in academia who bristle against this as a form of censorship, but yet at the same time, who also want to experience the frisson of the transgressive.

So, basically, you self censor, because the reality of history is too disturbing for modern sensibilities?

Imho, it's aking to barbarian and savage.  These were historical terms, and in its context, I don't disagree with it.  I don't think refering to a black person as "n*" or something-n* is the same.  I don't think calling an Haitian boy in the school bus "n*" has the same impact as quoting a book title from the 1960s, or reading in class a censu document written in 1840. 

People used offensive terms in the past.  It didn't begin that way, it morphed into that, we don't use it anymore (well, we don't if we want to stay polite).  Blacks, like everyone, have to accept the reality of history and develop some kind of shell.  It's totally not the same as insulting someone.  It's totally not the same as attacking one's right to vote.

Intent makes all the difference.  I could excuse a drunk politician calling me fucking frog.  I would not excuse a sober politician taking actions against the francophone minority of what is currently my country.

Quote from: FunkMonk on February 07, 2022, 01:40:31 PM

Quote from: Syt on February 07, 2022, 12:40:48 PM
Can we not have the n-word on the front page of a publicly accessible forum, please?

Thank you.

"Hi boss, just browsing the web on my break. Oh, what's that on my screen?

Oh, oh no."

We just discussing the inhabitants of Niger, you know, the n-people?
It's ok Sir, things are just a little different in English than in German, you know?  A simple misunderstanding, that's all.

You what was weird? Being in 8th grade and reading Tom Sawyer and having the kids throwing around that word. It probably would have been nice if somebody had explained how that word was thought of then vs now or give me the context or something. Because without that it gets really confusing, like current acceptable uses of it.

But like gendered female insults I don't think it is really my place to use them. I have plenty of other ways to insult somebody.

Quote from: Valmy on February 07, 2022, 08:25:55 PM
You what was weird? Being in 8th grade and reading Tom Sawyer and having the kids throwing around that word. It probably would have been nice if somebody had explained how that word was thought of then vs now or give me the context or something. Because without that it gets really confusing, like current acceptable uses of it.

We didn't have Tom Sawyer to read in 8th grade.
By grade 11th-12th however, I read Agaguk, a story about an inuit man who kills and eat parts of an RCMP agent, among other things.  We were given the usual speech that this represented a vision of the past for this people.

Quote
But like gendered female insults I don't think it is really my place to use them. I have plenty of other ways to insult somebody.

In the heat of the moment, facing a very rude & obtuse individual, I suppose it could happen to me, though.
It wouldn't be right, of course, but I don't think the use of such words automatically indicates racism or mysogeny on the part of the user.

Quote from: viper37 on February 07, 2022, 08:16:54 PM
So, basically, you self censor, because the reality of history is too disturbing for modern sensibilities?

That is emphatically not what I wrote. I understnd it's a common talking point, though.

Students get routinely exposed to the fucked up reality of history. My class, tomorrow, will have to deal with rape, mutilation, institutional and personal violence, because that's the fucked up reality of slavery.

I try to avoid uttering the n-word, because there is rarely any good reason to do so. I await a solid demonstration of what pedagogical good comes from a professor continuously speaking out loud racist slurs. Were I to conduct an actual cultural, or linguistic analysis of racist slurs, things may be different.

Quote from: Oexmelin on February 07, 2022, 09:29:44 PM

Quote from: viper37 on February 07, 2022, 08:16:54 PM
So, basically, you self censor, because the reality of history is too disturbing for modern sensibilities?

That is emphatically not what I wrote. I understnd it's a common talking point, though.

Students get routinely exposed to the fucked up reality of history. My class, tomorrow, will have to deal with rape, mutilation, institutional and personal violence, because that's the fucked up reality of slavery.

I try to avoid uttering the n-word, because there is rarely any good reason to do so. I await a solid demonstration of what pedagogical good comes from a professor continuously speaking out loud racist slurs. Were I to conduct an actual cultural, or linguistic analysis of racist slurs, things may be different.

I am trying to imagine a good reason to use the word in the classroom, and nothing come to mind outside some very carefully constructed circumstances that I doubt actually happen in the real world.

Quote from: Berkut on February 07, 2022, 09:31:12 PM
I am trying to imagine a good reason to use the word in the classroom, and nothing come to mind outside some very carefully constructed circumstances that I doubt actually happen in the real world.

As I said, I think a case could be made for a class dedicated to the analysis of insults and slurs - which I think is a legitimate object of study, and is often quite revealing. I always have such a class whenever I deal with 15th-18th century societies but in this case, insults usually focus around gender and sexuality rather than race, and those insults that deal with race usually mobilize words that don't have the longevity of the n-word.

I actually have some experience dealing with the use of the n-word in sports. I am a sports official in both football and basketball at the HS and college level, and even some semi-pro basketball.

I've dealt with people dropping the word in the context of games at every level, and how I deal with that definitely varies based on the context, the audience, and simply the situation.

Seems like we have some rich white dudes policing the racial speech of a more working class minority.

Quote from: alfred russel on February 08, 2022, 12:38:58 PM
Seems like we have some rich white dudes policing the racial speech of a more working class minority.

Troll rating:  2/10.  You can troll better than this.

Quote from: Oexmelin on February 07, 2022, 09:29:44 PM
I try to avoid uttering the n-word, because there is rarely any good reason to do so. I await a solid demonstration of what pedagogical good comes from a professor continuously speaking out loud racist slurs.

that's what I understood from your previous message.

I can agree with that.  There's certainly no need to continuously speaking out loud racist slurs.  But there could be a context where you have to use it.

Quote from: alfred russel on February 08, 2022, 12:38:58 PM
Seems like we have some rich white dudes policing the racial speech of a more working class minority.

Hey man they can do what they want. I was just saying what I decided to do.

Nowadays....never.

Quote from: viper37 on February 07, 2022, 08:09:36 PM

Quote from: crazy canuck on February 07, 2022, 02:39:59 PM
It has been a number of years since I heard someone try use the argument that it is intent, not impact, that matters.

Funny how so many Canadians seem to diverge on this.

N*word: The impact matters!
discrimination vs French speakers throughout the country: Only the intent matters!

Very... curious, that line of thought. :)

Once again, I have to wonder where you get your news about the views held by those of us outside Quebec.

Quote from: crazy canuck on February 09, 2022, 01:42:02 PM

Once again, I have to wonder where you get your news about the views held by those of us outside Quebec.

Languish. ;) But also: Globe & Mail, National Post, CBC News panel.