https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10310305/Female-competitor-speaks-saying-IMPOSSIBLE-beat-UPenn-transgender-swimmer-Lia-Thomas.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10310305/Female-competitor-speaks-saying-IMPOSSIBLE-beat-UPenn-transgender-swimmer-Lia-Thomas.html)Yeah. This, well....this is bullshit. This just does not make any sense.Before transitioning, he was a good Ivy League swimmer. After transitioning, she is the best collegiate swimmer in the country in several different events, and is honestly just going to absolutely dominate the sport at the collegiate level.QuoteIn the three years Thomas competed on the men's team at UPenn Will recorded his best times in the 200 Free at 1:39:31, his 500 Free at 4:18:72, and his 1,650 at 14:54:76, according to Outkick.
The current NCAA women's records for those events are currently held by Olympic gold medalists. Missy Franklin holds the record for the 200 Free at 1:39:10. Katie Ledecky set the records for the 500 Free at 4:24:06 and the 1,650 Free at 15:03:31.
Since competing on the women's team this season, Thomas has swam the 200 Free at 1:41:93, the 500 Free at 4:34:06, and 1,650 Free at 15:59:71.
She is going to absolutely dominat Ive League swimming in those events, and will likely win National Championships in college.Needless to say, there are a lot of people upset, including at least a couple on her own team. And needless to say, nobody is going to say anything publically, because to do so would absolutely destroy any career they might have in the future, because as we know, there isn't any such thing as left wing censoring of opinion.I think this is patently unfair. I think her teammate summed it up well:Quote'While they say they care about all of us, our interests are in direct conflict with the interests of Lia in regards to fair competition and getting to compete. While we support Lia as a person to make decisions for her own life, you cannot make that decision and then come and impede on other people and their rights,' the source continued. 'Your right doesn't supersede everyone else's right.'
'I don't know what the solution is, but I know this is not it. Because people talk about how the trans community might've been marginalized before and this is supposed to be helping, but you can't help the trans community by marginalizing [biological] women.'
'I know no matter what, biological women will never be on an equal playing field with transgender females.'
There is a problem that needs to be solved. And cancelling anyone who brings it up is going to make it worse.This is clearly not right, and insistence that it is fine is what fuels those who are against actual rational fairness in LBTQ rights.
Is she a woman or not? Not a rhetorical question.
In the general turn of events seems like a very minor problem vs "needs to be solved."
Quote from: The Brain on December 17, 2021, 05:21:13 PM
Is she a woman or not? Not a rhetorical question.
By whatever definition of "men" and "woman" that led to the establishment of men's and women's sport as separate, no "she" is not a woman.
Quote from: garbon on December 17, 2021, 05:34:24 PM
In the general turn of events seems like a very minor problem vs "needs to be solved."
Those female swimmers who spent a lot of effort through pretty much all their life with the understanding that they will have a realistic shot at competing, would surely be relieved you are willing to toss their aspirations out the window with such ease.
Quote from: The Brain on December 17, 2021, 05:21:13 PM
Is she a woman or not? Not a rhetorical question.
DNA will be pretty clear on that
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on December 17, 2021, 05:40:13 PM
Quote from: The Brain on December 17, 2021, 05:21:13 PM
Is she a woman or not? Not a rhetorical question.
DNA will be pretty clear on that
But you forget that DNA is not clear in 0.00000000001% of cases so it shouldn't be used to determine sex of contestants or of anyone.
Quote from: Tamas on December 17, 2021, 05:35:00 PM
Quote from: The Brain on December 17, 2021, 05:21:13 PM
Is she a woman or not? Not a rhetorical question.
By whatever definition of "men" and "woman" that led to the establishment of men's and women's sport as separate, no "she" is not a woman.
Definitions more than a century old might not always be very helpful today.
Quote from: Tamas on December 17, 2021, 05:36:26 PM
Quote from: garbon on December 17, 2021, 05:34:24 PM
In the general turn of events seems like a very minor problem vs "needs to be solved."
Those female swimmers who spent a lot of effort through pretty much all their life with the understanding that they will have a realistic shot at competing, would surely be relieved you are willing to toss their aspirations out the window with such ease.
My guess is that many women (and men) do sports for the love of the sport. Most women (and men) will never be Champ.
Quote from: The Brain on December 17, 2021, 05:54:35 PM
Quote from: Tamas on December 17, 2021, 05:35:00 PM
Quote from: The Brain on December 17, 2021, 05:21:13 PM
Is she a woman or not? Not a rhetorical question.
By whatever definition of "men" and "woman" that led to the establishment of men's and women's sport as separate, no "she" is not a woman.
Definitions more than a century old might not always be very helpful today.
True. I think there are two realistic choices open:
Decouple the concepts of sex and gender. If you were born a male you compete with other born males and same for females. If you are the lucky 1 in a million when you are sort of both then you get free choice where to compete. And you can call yourself Shirley while running with the other males, nobody should care.
Or if that is way too easy and sensible for modern sensibilities, the other choice is to do away with sex-based separation. To be fair that would be true equality. It would be quite detrimental to the struggle against misogynism seeing how females would never get even close to the top of their chosen physical sports, but on the other hand it might actually help feminism by showing that females can compete perfectly fine with males in sports not reliant on sheer muscle mass.
Quote from: The Brain on December 17, 2021, 06:00:20 PM
Quote from: Tamas on December 17, 2021, 05:36:26 PM
Quote from: garbon on December 17, 2021, 05:34:24 PM
In the general turn of events seems like a very minor problem vs "needs to be solved."
Those female swimmers who spent a lot of effort through pretty much all their life with the understanding that they will have a realistic shot at competing, would surely be relieved you are willing to toss their aspirations out the window with such ease.
My guess is that many women (and men) do sports for the love of the sport. Most women (and men) will never be Champ.
As I said, they must be relieved their concerns are such a non-issue.
Quote from: Tamas on December 17, 2021, 06:03:55 PM
Quote from: The Brain on December 17, 2021, 06:00:20 PM
Quote from: Tamas on December 17, 2021, 05:36:26 PM
Quote from: garbon on December 17, 2021, 05:34:24 PM
In the general turn of events seems like a very minor problem vs "needs to be solved."
Those female swimmers who spent a lot of effort through pretty much all their life with the understanding that they will have a realistic shot at competing, would surely be relieved you are willing to toss their aspirations out the window with such ease.
My guess is that many women (and men) do sports for the love of the sport. Most women (and men) will never be Champ.
As I said, they must be relieved their concerns are such a non-issue.
Many people have all kinds of concerns about transpersons. Are some feelings more equal than others?
Quote from: The Brain on December 17, 2021, 06:06:41 PM
Many people have all kinds of concerns about transpersons. Are some feelings more equal than others?
Are you saying that the feelings of these female athletes are of lesser value than the feelings of the male athlete competing against them?
Quote from: Tamas on December 17, 2021, 06:10:47 PM
Quote from: The Brain on December 17, 2021, 06:06:41 PM
Many people have all kinds of concerns about transpersons. Are some feelings more equal than others?
Are you saying that the feelings of these female athletes are of lesser value than the feelings of the male athlete competing against them?
How would a male athlete compete in women's sports (beyond cheaters or by special publicity stunt crap)? Are you saying that transwomen aren't women, but men?
Quote from: The Brain on December 17, 2021, 06:06:41 PM
Quote from: Tamas on December 17, 2021, 06:03:55 PM
Quote from: The Brain on December 17, 2021, 06:00:20 PM
Quote from: Tamas on December 17, 2021, 05:36:26 PM
Quote from: garbon on December 17, 2021, 05:34:24 PM
In the general turn of events seems like a very minor problem vs "needs to be solved."
Those female swimmers who spent a lot of effort through pretty much all their life with the understanding that they will have a realistic shot at competing, would surely be relieved you are willing to toss their aspirations out the window with such ease.
My guess is that many women (and men) do sports for the love of the sport. Most women (and men) will never be Champ.
As I said, they must be relieved their concerns are such a non-issue.
Many people have all kinds of concerns about transpersons. Are some feelings more equal than others?
Of course. Some feelings are based on demonstrable harm being done for valid concerns, and others are whining about bullshit.
The fact that people cannot (or rather will not) discern between those two things is why the left loses in the court of public opinion as often as it does.
"I don't think transgender people should be allowed to marry because they are gross" is a stupid concern rightly ignored.
"I am worried about the integrity of female sports if biological men who transition are radically more physically capable then women - what should we do about that?" is a rather valid concern that ought to be considered rationally.
Trying to pretend like valid concerns are the same as invalid ones is as dishonest as anything the right does to pretend that their invalid concerns are somehow actually valid.
Quote from: The Brain on December 17, 2021, 06:14:16 PM
Quote from: Tamas on December 17, 2021, 06:10:47 PM
Quote from: The Brain on December 17, 2021, 06:06:41 PM
Many people have all kinds of concerns about transpersons. Are some feelings more equal than others?
Are you saying that the feelings of these female athletes are of lesser value than the feelings of the male athlete competing against them?
How would a male athlete compete in women's sports (beyond cheaters or by special publicity stunt crap)? Are you saying that transwomen aren't women, but men?
I think the article pretty clearly shows that transgender women who transition late, in this case years, after puberty, have a significant physiological advantage over non-transgender women.
Quote from: The Brain on December 17, 2021, 06:14:16 PM
Quote from: Tamas on December 17, 2021, 06:10:47 PM
Quote from: The Brain on December 17, 2021, 06:06:41 PM
Many people have all kinds of concerns about transpersons. Are some feelings more equal than others?
Are you saying that the feelings of these female athletes are of lesser value than the feelings of the male athlete competing against them?
How would a male athlete compete in women's sports (beyond cheaters or by special publicity stunt crap)? Are you saying that transwomen aren't women, but men?
I will rephrase to ease your moral conundrum:
Are you saying that the feelings of these
female athletes who expressed concerns in the article are of lesser value than the feelings of the
male transitioned athlete competing against them?
Quote from: Berkut on December 17, 2021, 06:14:49 PM
Quote from: The Brain on December 17, 2021, 06:06:41 PM
Quote from: Tamas on December 17, 2021, 06:03:55 PM
Quote from: The Brain on December 17, 2021, 06:00:20 PM
Quote from: Tamas on December 17, 2021, 05:36:26 PM
Quote from: garbon on December 17, 2021, 05:34:24 PM
In the general turn of events seems like a very minor problem vs "needs to be solved."
Those female swimmers who spent a lot of effort through pretty much all their life with the understanding that they will have a realistic shot at competing, would surely be relieved you are willing to toss their aspirations out the window with such ease.
My guess is that many women (and men) do sports for the love of the sport. Most women (and men) will never be Champ.
As I said, they must be relieved their concerns are such a non-issue.
Many people have all kinds of concerns about transpersons. Are some feelings more equal than others?
Of course. Some feelings are based on demonstrable harm being done for valid concerns, and others are whining about bullshit.
The fact that people cannot (or rather will not) discern between those two things is why the left loses in the court of public opinion as often as it does.
"I don't think transgender people should be allowed to marry because they are gross" is a stupid concern rightly ignored.
"I am worried about the integrity of female sports if biological men who transition are radically more physically capable then women - what should we do about that?" is a rather valid concern that ought to be considered rationally.
Trying to pretend like valid concerns are the same as invalid ones is as dishonest as anything the right does to pretend that their invalid concerns are somehow actually valid.
Concerns about safety and emotional well-being in places like women's restrooms, women's shelters, etc, have been voiced by some people. I don't know if those are valid concerns or not, but safety generally carries a lot more weight than being inconvenienced in sports.
Quote from: Berkut on December 17, 2021, 06:16:00 PM
Quote from: The Brain on December 17, 2021, 06:14:16 PM
Quote from: Tamas on December 17, 2021, 06:10:47 PM
Quote from: The Brain on December 17, 2021, 06:06:41 PM
Many people have all kinds of concerns about transpersons. Are some feelings more equal than others?
Are you saying that the feelings of these female athletes are of lesser value than the feelings of the male athlete competing against them?
How would a male athlete compete in women's sports (beyond cheaters or by special publicity stunt crap)? Are you saying that transwomen aren't women, but men?
I think the article pretty clearly shows that transgender women who transition late, in this case years, after puberty, have a significant physiological advantage over non-transgender women.
Many sports clearly favor certain genetic makeups.
Quote from: Tamas on December 17, 2021, 06:21:09 PM
Quote from: The Brain on December 17, 2021, 06:14:16 PM
Quote from: Tamas on December 17, 2021, 06:10:47 PM
Quote from: The Brain on December 17, 2021, 06:06:41 PM
Many people have all kinds of concerns about transpersons. Are some feelings more equal than others?
Are you saying that the feelings of these female athletes are of lesser value than the feelings of the male athlete competing against them?
How would a male athlete compete in women's sports (beyond cheaters or by special publicity stunt crap)? Are you saying that transwomen aren't women, but men?
I will rephrase to ease your moral conundrum:
Are you saying that the feelings of these female athletes who expressed concerns in the article are of lesser value than the feelings of the male transitioned athlete competing against them?
I think that the onus to make a convincing case lies on the people who argue against equality*, not the people who expect it. "I don't like it" is pretty weak sauce. LOTS of people didn't want Jack Johnson to be Champ.
*As I have said repeatedly in these discussion: I don't know if transwomen are women or not. I am not a doctor and I haven't studied the details even briefly as a layman. If they are NOT women, then obviously they have no business being in women's sports. But if they ARE women, THEN equality would expect them to be able to compete in women's sports. Absent convincing arguments against it.
Quote from: The Brain on December 17, 2021, 06:22:39 PM
Concerns about safety and emotional well-being in places like women's restrooms, women's shelters, etc, have been voiced by some people. I don't know if those are valid concerns or not, but safety generally carries a lot more weight than being inconvenienced in sports.
But we're comparing trans women being inconvenienced in sports to cis women being inconvenienced in sports.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 17, 2021, 06:56:33 PM
Quote from: The Brain on December 17, 2021, 06:22:39 PM
Concerns about safety and emotional well-being in places like women's restrooms, women's shelters, etc, have been voiced by some people. I don't know if those are valid concerns or not, but safety generally carries a lot more weight than being inconvenienced in sports.
But we're comparing trans women being inconvenienced in sports to cis women being inconvenienced in sports.
We are comparing equality and inequality (if transwomen are women, if they are not women then the discussion is dead since they have no business being in women's sports). If the position is that inconvenience is the bar for denying transpersons equal treatment then that has effects for all other situations where the presence of transpersons are discussed. Unless sports is considered fundamentally different from all other parts of society, which it is not.
Quote from: The Brain on December 17, 2021, 07:08:39 PM
We are comparing equality and inequality (if transwomen are women, if they are not women then the discussion is dead since they have no business being in women's sports). If the position is that inconvenience is the bar for denying transpersons equal treatment then that has effects for all other situations where the presence of transpersons are discussed. Unless sports is considered fundamentally different from all other parts of society, which it is not.
What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. You can't poo poo cis women's concerns and not acknowledge that trans women's concerns about sports are exactly equivalent.
Quote from: The Brain on December 17, 2021, 07:08:39 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 17, 2021, 06:56:33 PM
Quote from: The Brain on December 17, 2021, 06:22:39 PM
Concerns about safety and emotional well-being in places like women's restrooms, women's shelters, etc, have been voiced by some people. I don't know if those are valid concerns or not, but safety generally carries a lot more weight than being inconvenienced in sports.
But we're comparing trans women being inconvenienced in sports to cis women being inconvenienced in sports.
We are comparing equality and inequality (if transwomen are women, if they are not women then the discussion is dead since they have no business being in women's sports). If the position is that inconvenience is the bar for denying transpersons equal treatment then that has effects for all other situations where the presence of transpersons are discussed. Unless sports is considered fundamentally different from all other parts of society, which it is not.
Why the need to be so strictly binary on this question? I thought thinking in binary terms was bad when it came to this topic?
Quote from: DGuller on December 17, 2021, 07:15:09 PM
Quote from: The Brain on December 17, 2021, 07:08:39 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 17, 2021, 06:56:33 PM
Quote from: The Brain on December 17, 2021, 06:22:39 PM
Concerns about safety and emotional well-being in places like women's restrooms, women's shelters, etc, have been voiced by some people. I don't know if those are valid concerns or not, but safety generally carries a lot more weight than being inconvenienced in sports.
But we're comparing trans women being inconvenienced in sports to cis women being inconvenienced in sports.
We are comparing equality and inequality (if transwomen are women, if they are not women then the discussion is dead since they have no business being in women's sports). If the position is that inconvenience is the bar for denying transpersons equal treatment then that has effects for all other situations where the presence of transpersons are discussed. Unless sports is considered fundamentally different from all other parts of society, which it is not.
Why the need to be so strictly binary on this question? I thought thinking in binary terms was bad when it came to this topic?
Binary? Women's sports is, as the name implies, for women (whatever exactly that means, but it certainly doesn't include non-women). Non-women may come in all kinds of sexes, it doesn't affect women's sports.
Quote from: The Brain on December 17, 2021, 07:17:32 PM
Binary? Women's sports is, as the name implies, for women (whatever exactly that means, but it certainly doesn't include non-women). Non-women may come in all kinds of sexes, it doesn't affect women's sports.
I don't think we should be going by the implications from the name of the sport. Sports were also named more than a century ago, and we've established that things from a century ago are not helpful here. Most men's sports, if not all, actually do allow women to compete, so the name of the sport is actually not a good guide for 2021.
The question seems to me pretty simple.
Transgender women who transition after puberty are going to have developed physiologically in a way that makes them clearly rather different then non trans-gendered women. You would not allow women to take testoserone in order to grow more muscle mass, and then compete in women's athletics for a reason - it creates an unfair (and uninteresting) sport.
Is a transgendered woman a woman? I don't think there is an answer to that question that is useful here.
The question is whether a transgendered women who transition after developing physiologically as a man for a decade different physiologically in a relevant manner from a biological woman such that allowing them to compete becomes something of a farce.
I think the article makes it pretty clear that the answer can be "yes".
A decade ago? There was a case where a bio man who identified as a woman competed in high school field hockey, and dominated the sport. People said "Its one person, in high school sports, who really cares?" The answer was "the other people who have to compete against and with him care, of course" but they were ignored. Too minor, doesn't matter.
So today it is a transgendered woman who for the first 22 years of her life was a biological male athlete who was good enough to compete at the higher levels of male athletics, and who after transitioning to womens sports immediately became by far the best athlete in their sport at their level. Is Lia Thompson a woman? I would answer "yes" for the purposes of how she should be treated outside of athletics. Inside the world of competitive college womens sports, I would note that whether she is a woman or not, she is definitely not playing on the same physiological playing field as non transgendered women.
This problem isn't going to go away. It is going to get worse, because why wouldn't it?
It's not like the definition of "women" is something that hasn't been under discussion for a while.
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2016/08/caster-semenya-and-the-abnormal-olympic-body/496724/
QuoteWhy Hyper-Masculine Women Are Scary, but Fish-Like Men Aren't
Most elite athletes are unusual in some way. So why does Caster Semenya alarm spectators more than Michael Phelps?
Quote from: DGuller on December 17, 2021, 07:28:04 PM
Quote from: The Brain on December 17, 2021, 07:17:32 PM
Binary? Women's sports is, as the name implies, for women (whatever exactly that means, but it certainly doesn't include non-women). Non-women may come in all kinds of sexes, it doesn't affect women's sports.
I don't think we should be going by the implications from the name of the sport. Sports were also named more than a century ago, and we've established that things from a century ago are not helpful here. Most men's sports, if not all, actually do allow women to compete, so the name of the sport is actually not a good guide for 2021.
If you're fine with non-women competing in women's sports then what's the problem?
Quote from: Tamas on December 17, 2021, 05:41:52 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on December 17, 2021, 05:40:13 PM
Quote from: The Brain on December 17, 2021, 05:21:13 PM
Is she a woman or not? Not a rhetorical question.
DNA will be pretty clear on that
But you forget that DNA is not clear in 0.00000000001% of cases so it shouldn't be used to determine sex of contestants or of anyone.
the exceptions to the rule do not invalidate the rule. So it should very well be used to determine the sex of contestants. It's even the only definitive way to determine the sex of anything.
Quote from: Berkut on December 17, 2021, 10:44:30 PM
The question seems to me pretty simple.
Transgender women who transition after puberty are going to have developed physiologically in a way that makes them clearly rather different then non trans-gendered women. You would not allow women to take testoserone in order to grow more muscle mass, and then compete in women's athletics for a reason - it creates an unfair (and uninteresting) sport.
Is a transgendered woman a woman? I don't think there is an answer to that question that is useful here.
The question is whether a transgendered women who transition after developing physiologically as a man for a decade different physiologically in a relevant manner from a biological woman such that allowing them to compete becomes something of a farce.
I think the article makes it pretty clear that the answer can be "yes".
A decade ago? There was a case where a bio man who identified as a woman competed in high school field hockey, and dominated the sport. People said "Its one person, in high school sports, who really cares?" The answer was "the other people who have to compete against and with him care, of course" but they were ignored. Too minor, doesn't matter.
So today it is a transgendered woman who for the first 22 years of her life was a biological male athlete who was good enough to compete at the higher levels of male athletics, and who after transitioning to womens sports immediately became by far the best athlete in their sport at their level. Is Lia Thompson a woman? I would answer "yes" for the purposes of how she should be treated outside of athletics. Inside the world of competitive college womens sports, I would note that whether she is a woman or not, she is definitely not playing on the same physiological playing field as non transgendered women.
This problem isn't going to go away. It is going to get worse, because why wouldn't it?
FWIW I hope I don't come across as poo-pooing anything. My involvement in the discussion is primarily because I think the question is intellectually interesting. If I have any mild personal concern it's that I think it's best if society doesn't make rules based on a popularity contest, but instead makes them based on sound principles. I have seen it happen in Sweden in a number of instances (unrelated to transgender questions), and I think it's fraught with risk and ultimately harmful.
Edit: in case of messerschmitt: "isn't democracy a big popularity contest? Hmm?" Sure if you must, but I think you know what I'm talking about here. Making different rules for different parties based on the popularity of the various parties, and not on the most popular principles.
I think the current rule in the NCAA is completely based on the certain knowledge that if you make the rule in any way nuanced such that it would deny someone like Lia Thompson the right to compete in womens sports, the outrage and mob reaction would be career ending for whomever came up with a sane rule. Hence we have an insane rule that lets someone who physiologically is clearly not simply a woman like all the other women (and this is obvious when you look at her - no breasts, very lean, almost certainly a muscle/mass ratio that is well outside the typical range for even elite female athletes) compete as a women after undergoing the NCAA mandated 1 year of hormone treatment.
I actually think garbon response of "it doesn't matter" is actually tangential to the right answer. The number of people transitioning is small. Doing so is an immense choice, with serious and profound consequences that isn't going to be taken lightly. We don't need a system or process that has to handle thousands of cases. We just need one that can handle a few cases, and hence it can and should be nuanced. When did the athlete transition? What is the outcomes, physiologically of that transition from an athletic standpoint? What is the compettive natre of their sport as it related to physiology? In some cases, I think the answer to those questions are going to be, in fact "It doesn't really matter". They were not elite before, and they are not going to be elite after, so no big deal.
In some cases, like this one, there is pretty clearly a situation where their previous identity as a man, and the nature of their transition, is going to mean that their ability to compete as a woman is dominated not by their talent, but simply by their latent male physiology. They should be allowed to continue to compete as a man, and disallowed to complete as a women. This could be a legal finding that could be challenged in court, to make sure that such findings are in fact based on the merits of the case, rather then simply some bigot who doesn't like transgendered people.
Quote from: The Brain on December 18, 2021, 03:33:14 AM
Quote from: DGuller on December 17, 2021, 07:28:04 PM
Quote from: The Brain on December 17, 2021, 07:17:32 PM
Binary? Women's sports is, as the name implies, for women (whatever exactly that means, but it certainly doesn't include non-women). Non-women may come in all kinds of sexes, it doesn't affect women's sports.
I don't think we should be going by the implications from the name of the sport. Sports were also named more than a century ago, and we've established that things from a century ago are not helpful here. Most men's sports, if not all, actually do allow women to compete, so the name of the sport is actually not a good guide for 2021.
If you're fine with non-women competing in women's sports then what's the problem?
No, I'm not fine with that, as that would moot the point of women's sport. The point I was making is that the one word in the name of the sport does not embed in it the restrictions or the reasoning behind the sport's existence. Sports that are called women's sports were created as restricted categories to allow people who didn't have male physical characteristics to compete. It's not like sports were bifurcated where women go left and men go right, even though a naive reading of the sport names could lead you to believe that. In actuality, one is an open category and another is a restricted category, and the point of a restriction in a restricted category is to keep out competitors with crushing sex-rated advantages.
Quote from: The Brain on December 18, 2021, 04:06:07 AM
FWIW I hope I don't come across as poo-pooing anything. My involvement in the discussion is primarily because I think the question is intellectually interesting.
I personally don't find it interesting in the least. In order to have an intellectual discussion you need to have an open discussion. On this topic, it's a discussion between people playing dumb, pretending that only transphobes can see a problem here, and people who have to consider their words very, very carefully in order to avoid getting a Navratilova treatment. That's the exact opposite of an intellectually interesting discussion.
Quote from: Berkut on December 17, 2021, 05:16:11 PM
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10310305/Female-competitor-speaks-saying-IMPOSSIBLE-beat-UPenn-transgender-swimmer-Lia-Thomas.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10310305/Female-competitor-speaks-saying-IMPOSSIBLE-beat-UPenn-transgender-swimmer-Lia-Thomas.html)
Yeah. This, well....this is bullshit. This just does not make any sense.
Let men troll womens' sport into oblivion. This is what they wanted. Let them eat their own cooking. :hmm:
Quote from: The Brain on December 18, 2021, 04:06:07 AM
FWIW I hope I don't come across as poo-pooing anything. My involvement in the discussion is primarily because I think the question is intellectually interesting. If I have any mild personal concern it's that I think it's best if society doesn't make rules based on a popularity contest, but instead makes them based on sound principles. I have seen it happen in Sweden in a number of instances (unrelated to transgender questions), and I think it's fraught with risk and ultimately harmful.
Who's trying to turn it into a popularity contest?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 18, 2021, 06:08:22 PM
Quote from: The Brain on December 18, 2021, 04:06:07 AM
FWIW I hope I don't come across as poo-pooing anything. My involvement in the discussion is primarily because I think the question is intellectually interesting. If I have any mild personal concern it's that I think it's best if society doesn't make rules based on a popularity contest, but instead makes them based on sound principles. I have seen it happen in Sweden in a number of instances (unrelated to transgender questions), and I think it's fraught with risk and ultimately harmful.
Who's trying to turn it into a popularity contest?
Some of the people who think that equality is great except when it has a negative impact on something they care about.
Quote from: The Brain on December 18, 2021, 06:11:29 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 18, 2021, 06:08:22 PM
Quote from: The Brain on December 18, 2021, 04:06:07 AM
FWIW I hope I don't come across as poo-pooing anything. My involvement in the discussion is primarily because I think the question is intellectually interesting. If I have any mild personal concern it's that I think it's best if society doesn't make rules based on a popularity contest, but instead makes them based on sound principles. I have seen it happen in Sweden in a number of instances (unrelated to transgender questions), and I think it's fraught with risk and ultimately harmful.
Who's trying to turn it into a popularity contest?
Some of the people who think that equality is great except when it has a negative impact on something they care about.
Who are those people?
Quote from: Berkut on December 18, 2021, 06:14:10 PM
Quote from: The Brain on December 18, 2021, 06:11:29 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 18, 2021, 06:08:22 PM
Quote from: The Brain on December 18, 2021, 04:06:07 AM
FWIW I hope I don't come across as poo-pooing anything. My involvement in the discussion is primarily because I think the question is intellectually interesting. If I have any mild personal concern it's that I think it's best if society doesn't make rules based on a popularity contest, but instead makes them based on sound principles. I have seen it happen in Sweden in a number of instances (unrelated to transgender questions), and I think it's fraught with risk and ultimately harmful.
Who's trying to turn it into a popularity contest?
Some of the people who think that equality is great except when it has a negative impact on something they care about.
Who are those people?
I don't have a list of names. Like DG almost read correctly, the question interests me, not the discussion.
Quote from: The Brain on December 18, 2021, 06:11:29 PM
Some of the people who think that equality is great except when it has a negative impact on something they care about.
:lol:
The existence of women's sports is predicated on inequality. If "equality" trumps every other consideration then the only consistent position is to advocate abolishing women's sports.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 18, 2021, 06:28:26 PM
Quote from: The Brain on December 18, 2021, 06:11:29 PM
Some of the people who think that equality is great except when it has a negative impact on something they care about.
:lol:
The existence of women's sports is predicated on inequality. If "equality" trumps every other consideration then the only consistent position is to advocate abolishing women's sports.
Why would equality trump every other consideration?
Quote from: The Brain on December 18, 2021, 06:33:53 PM
Why would equality trump every other consideration?
I don't think it does, which is why I'm arguing for excluding trans women from women's sports.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 18, 2021, 06:36:24 PM
Quote from: The Brain on December 18, 2021, 06:33:53 PM
Why would equality trump every other consideration?
I don't think it does, which is why I'm arguing for excluding trans women from women's sports.
In your mind, is it beneficial to society if determining where transwomen can be discriminated against is based on some generally applicable principles, or is it better if it is decided for different industries/facilities/activities on an individual basis?
Quote from: The Brain on December 18, 2021, 06:40:15 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 18, 2021, 06:36:24 PM
Quote from: The Brain on December 18, 2021, 06:33:53 PM
Why would equality trump every other consideration?
I don't think it does, which is why I'm arguing for excluding trans women from women's sports.
In your mind, is it beneficial to society if determining where transwomen can be discriminated against is based on some generally applicable principles, or is it better if it is decided for different industries/facilities/activities on an individual basis?
This is not a discussion about where transwomen can be discriminated against.
Quote from: Berkut on December 18, 2021, 06:43:39 PM
Quote from: The Brain on December 18, 2021, 06:40:15 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 18, 2021, 06:36:24 PM
Quote from: The Brain on December 18, 2021, 06:33:53 PM
Why would equality trump every other consideration?
I don't think it does, which is why I'm arguing for excluding trans women from women's sports.
In your mind, is it beneficial to society if determining where transwomen can be discriminated against is based on some generally applicable principles, or is it better if it is decided for different industries/facilities/activities on an individual basis?
This is not a discussion about where transwomen can be discriminated against.
I don't follow.
Quote from: The Brain on December 18, 2021, 06:40:15 PM
In your mind, is it beneficial to society if determining where transwomen can be discriminated against is based on some generally applicable principles, or is it better if it is decided for different industries/facilities/activities on an individual basis?
I think generally applicable principles should be applied to different facilities/activities (industries???) as they are relevant.
E.g. security and peace of mind in women's shelters, fairness in sports, etc.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on December 17, 2021, 05:40:13 PM
Quote from: The Brain on December 17, 2021, 05:21:13 PM
Is she a woman or not? Not a rhetorical question.
DNA will be pretty clear on that
we must assert our independance from such petty things as science. If biology does not conform to whatever social norms we like, then we must change biology to fit the norm. :)
I've seen that before, but I can't remember where. Anyway, LGBT activists will agree 100% with that statement. If some group of country decides gays & trans are subhuman beings, let by no mean science stand in the way of their moral norms. :)
Oh joy. My random drive-by of Languish and another Trans topic. Fuck off and die to some of you. :thumbsdown:
To those who stuck up for Lia as a woman and as a women's athlete, thank you. :cheers:
I'm betting she actually has lower T levels than most of her ciswomen teammates and has for quite a while. That's what HRT does. She's been on T suppressors and anti-androgens in addition to e for years now and those old cismale levels of T are long gone. Her body development is, in my opinion, less beneficial than someone like Michael Phelps. I'd like to say I'm surprised by any of this transphobic nonsense here, but it keeps happening and the same people are involved each time. So... yeah. Bye again.
One last item. A slightly less biased and more nuanced article:
https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-news/ivy-league-swimming-champion-becomes-target-transphobic-rhetoric-rcna9074
So much hostility, where is it coming from? :hmm:
So the argument is that "she" is the Phelps of female swimming - a woman who won the women's genetic lottery on birth?
Quote from: Eddie Teach on December 19, 2021, 03:53:48 AM
So much hostility, where is it coming from? :hmm:
You cannot push trans rights past a point without trampling on women's rights, the only way to mask or deny that is to aggressively shut down discussion.
Quote from: Tamas on December 19, 2021, 05:17:18 AM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on December 19, 2021, 03:53:48 AM
So much hostility, where is it coming from? :hmm:
You cannot push trans rights past a point without trampling on women's rights, the only way to mask or deny that is to aggressively shut down discussion.
Fuck off and die.
Quote from: DGuller on December 19, 2021, 10:31:59 AM
Quote from: Tamas on December 19, 2021, 05:17:18 AM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on December 19, 2021, 03:53:48 AM
So much hostility, where is it coming from? :hmm:
You cannot push trans rights past a point without trampling on women's rights, the only way to mask or deny that is to aggressively shut down discussion.
Fuck off and die.
I fucked and killed your mom
But which of the two of you disappointed her more?
Quote from: chipwich on December 19, 2021, 10:47:24 AM
I fucked and killed your mom
When she said that she would rather die than experience sex with you again, she wasn't asking to be killed. :rolleyes:
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on December 19, 2021, 03:39:35 AM
Oh joy. My random drive-by of Languish and another Trans topic. Fuck off and die to some of you. :thumbsdown:
To those who stuck up for Lia as a woman and as a women's athlete, thank you. :cheers:
I'm betting she actually has lower T levels than most of her ciswomen teammates and has for quite a while. That's what HRT does. She's been on T suppressors and anti-androgens in addition to e for years now and those old cismale levels of T are long gone. Her body development is, in my opinion, less beneficial than someone like Michael Phelps. I'd like to say I'm surprised by any of this transphobic nonsense here, but it keeps happening and the same people are involved each time. So... yeah. Bye again.
One last item. A slightly less biased and more nuanced article:
https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-news/ivy-league-swimming-champion-becomes-target-transphobic-rhetoric-rcna9074
Summary:
People who don't agree with me are trans-phobic assholes who should be ignored.
She isn't as amazing as Michael Phelps, the best male swimmer of all time, so clearly there is no issue here.
I am so confident in the rational strength of my argument, I am going to call everyone who disagrees with me bigots and then leave. BUH BYE.
Benedict Arnold, here is a very pragmatic question for you. Clearly you think you're right on this issue, and so right that there can't be any debate on it. Let's assume that it is indeed the case. In that case, why would you want to make it so easy for people who are catastrophically wrong to dismiss everything that you're saying due the frankly unhinged way you're saying it?
I don't think anyone changes their minds instantly during a debate, that's a naive notion that ignores the emotional realities of human beings. However, when good arguments meet open minds, some processing happens offline, and eventually minds are slowly converted. Not all minds, not all the time, but things shift on the margins, and few issues had as rapid of a genuine shift in public sentiment as LGBT issues. Do you think you've done the best you could to facilitate the genuine shift here?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 18, 2021, 06:28:26 PM
The existence of women's sports is predicated on inequality.
Just so. The very idea of separate men and women's sports is offensive to the principle of equality - it would not (and should not) be tolerated in other contexts. It can only be justified by pragmatic reasoning: that do otherwise would effectively marginalize women in areas of sporting competition where physiological tendencies are understood to give men a decisive advantage.
The "Berkut position" is that even if one as a matter of principle accepts that post-puberty transitioning trans women should be accorded the respect of being treated as the gender with which they identify, the same pragmatic reasoning that drives the otherwise unprincipled separation of men and women in sports should also bar their participation in "women's" sports, because of alleged innate physiological advantage.
The response as I understand it is twofold:
1) The physiological advantages of post-puberty transitioning trans women are not materially significant.
2) Even if they were material, the pragmatic justifications for the sake of sporting competitiveness are not sufficient to justify to affront to the dignity and self-conception of those who would be excluded.
#1 is relatively easy to deal with - it poses a factual dispute that can be addressed - if not necessarily definitively resolved - by scientific evidence and analysis.
But #2 presents a fundamental clash of principles and values that can't be avoided. My own take is more to the garbon position - I would err to towards treating all with respect, even at the cost of causing some upset to the pragmatic justifications for separating women's sports. But I might feel differently a I were a young woman who had dedicated her life to competing in swimming, track, etc. . .
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on December 19, 2021, 02:06:42 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 18, 2021, 06:28:26 PM
The existence of women's sports is predicated on inequality.
Just so. The very idea of separate men and women's sports is offensive to the principle of equality - it would not (and should not) be tolerated in other contexts. It can only be justified by pragmatic reasoning: that do otherwise would effectively marginalize women in areas of sporting competition where physiological tendencies are understood to give men a decisive advantage.
Yes and I think the danger here is cultural: the relative physical weakness of females vs. males have been used since the start of history not "just" to physically oppress women but more importantly it's been one of the basis for the political/ideological turning of females into second class human beings. The last 100 years have seen big improvements in it but it's still pretty far from being gone, especially on a global level (I'd say on a global level barely a dent is being made into this discrimination).
Introducing true equality into sports would mean the disappearance of females from the top and medium tiers of physical sports. I don't know how much it would hurt the fight for women's equality but for sure it would not help.
On the other hand, this mockery of women's sport and elimination of all perceived dignity in the sport -which IS a source of pride and dignity for those women competing in it, like it or not- cannot possibly help the case of trans people.
Why does BA feels so strongly about this?
I've always thought it interesting that Renée Richards, who successfully fought to play professional women's tennis, does not believe that trans women should (or even can) compete with cis women.
QuoteDespite all this, Richards has expressed ambivalence about her legacy. She continues to take pride in being "the first one who stood up for the rights of transsexuals." But she also mused, "Maybe in the last analysis, maybe not even I should have been allowed to play on the women's tour. Maybe I should have knuckled under and said, 'That's one thing I can't have as my newfound right in being a woman.' I think transsexuals have every right to play, but maybe not at the professional level, because it's not a level playing field." She opposes the International Olympic Committee's ruling in 2004 that transgender people can compete after they've had surgery and two years of hormonal therapy.
The science of distinguishing men from women in sports remains unsettled. And Richards has come to believe that her past as a man did provide her advantages over competitors. "Having lived for the past 30 years, I know if I'd had surgery at the age of 22, and then at 24 went on the tour, no genetic woman in the world would have been able to come close to me. And so I've reconsidered my opinion." She adds, "There is one thing that a transsexual woman unfortunately cannot expect to be allowed to do, and that is to play professional sports in her chosen field. She can get married, live as woman, do all of those other things, and no one should ever be allowed to take them away from her. But this limitation—that's just life. I know because I lived it.
https://slate.com/culture/2012/10/jewish-jocks-and-renee-richards-the-life-of-the-transsexual-tennis-legend.html (https://slate.com/culture/2012/10/jewish-jocks-and-renee-richards-the-life-of-the-transsexual-tennis-legend.html)
Quote from: The Brain on December 17, 2021, 07:17:32 PM
Binary? Women's sports is, as the name implies, for women (whatever exactly that means, but it certainly doesn't include non-women). Non-women may come in all kinds of sexes, it doesn't affect women's sports.
Ok but why does women's sports exist? Because people of different genders shouldn't compete against each other? Well why not? Why should gender determine who you can and not compete against. It doesn't make any sense, your performance at sports has nothing to do with your gender at all.
We separated the sexes in sports because of biology not because people who present as different genders shouldn't be competing against each other.
I look at this from a few conflicting angles.
First is the culture war angle. The simple reality is websites like Daily Mail, OutKick etc are far right troll farms that exist to upset conservative people. Part of me doesn't really want to spend much mental energy on addressing anything they bring up, because nothing they bring up comes from a place of honest concern, they are provocateurs who simply want to hurt society to make money. These are bad people doing bad things. That being said it is obviously a lot easier said than done to just ignore these people.
The second angle to me is the idea of competing with someone who has genetic gifts that you can never match. Well, let's be quite honest--that happens in all sport, whether a trans person is there or not. Starting at age 8 I could have dedicated my life to the sport of basketball. I could have lived, breathed, and thought of nothing else, practiced endlessly. But no matter how hard I tried, no matter what, I was never going to be anything but a 5'10" slow white guy, and I would never be able to compete with say, Michael Jordan. Let's be honest--I don't have to go as far as Michael Jordan, I could say any basketball player on a Division I basketball team is just bringing genetic gifts to the table that I don't have, and no amount of hard work or practice can overcome that difference.
I suspect a lot of people who played against Michael Jordan in High School and College "felt bad" that they were facing someone who could do effortlessly things they had to work very hard their entire lives to do only adequately. Competitive sports are not about equality, and never have been. We are not created equal, some people are faster, stronger, more coordinated, have faster reflexes, have better proprioception, better vision, better hearing etc.
Every single one of these UPenn swimmers, none of whom is considered particularly good in terms of rankings in their sport, is experiencing something here they would not have experienced had Lia never gone out to play for the women's team--the specter of competing against someone better than them, that no amount of effort could ever overcome.
The third angle is--okay all that being said, is this a man playing a woman's sport and if so how do we address it? There isn't an easy answer there right. What Brain said earlier has some merit--if we consider this person a full woman, then saying "except in sport" pays proof to the lie, and that we don't consider them actual women. If we don't consider them a complete woman, is that okay? Some would say absolutely not. On trans issues I generally think people should be free to do what they want in life as long as they aren't hurting anyone, and many trans people suffer psychological issues of depression and dysphoria that are relieved by transitioning, and it has been indicated by many that transitioning heads off what might have been a life doomed to end in suicide otherwise. The issue gets really complicated and I won't pretend to know the real science on it, and to be frank and non-PC, I'm not sure we have a great certainty on the science anyway.
The argument that we need to step in and treat Lia differently is saying we consider her a "special class" of woman that needs differential treatment. I am not saying that isn't the right answer, but I think people need to recognize that is what they are advocating and understand the full consequences of it.
Now I'm not an expert on the trans stuff but I do consider myself an expert on weight lifting, muscle building and frankly, steroid use. From years in the bodybuilding and powerlifting game going back to my 20s I had more friends than I can count do the full gamut of different steroid routines. I can tell you that muscle mass built with the help of anabolics does not disappear in perfect lock step with the hormone levels of the lifter returning to normal reference frame. That's basic, undisputed fact. I would thus be quite surprised if in 12 months of treatment that brings a biological male's testosterone levels down to biological female reference frame, and estrogen levels up to appropriate range, that they would lose all the excess muscle mass they developed due to higher testosterone levels. It doesn't work that way in men who take anabolic steroids and I'm highly skeptical it happens in the case of transitioning.
You certainly lose some muscle mass in coming down from a steroid cycle, and it becomes harder to maintain and your recovery goes to shit. But not only is it well known that you maintain a lot of the gains of the steroids even after ceasing them this is in fact how many athletes not just in the "strength sports" but in football and etc historically bypassed testing regimes (it's also why serious testing regimes test randomly throughout the off season in modern times.)
In the powerlifting world they maintain a list of "Lifetime Drug Free" records because it is understood it is very hard to equalize the results of any period of serious steroid usage even years prior. Now, with the passage of time things certainly equalize "better and better", but in my experience a year off steroids you're nowhere close, in terms of muscle mass, to what someone would be who was lifetime natural, you're going to enjoy those excess benefits for years, especially if you follow a workout program that helps maintain.
So my take on it all? At the pre-college level I think the women need to just deal with it, because it's such a rare occurrence, and disparities in talent are already so great at the High School level that "having to face off against someone better than me" isn't really cause for great concern. At the collegiate and higher level I think the one year window needs to be bigger. I might even go as far as to say in college, if you've ever competed in a men's sport you are locked into that sport for your four years of eligibility, if you transition during your collegiate career you would need to remain in the men's league. Now post-college in things like the Olympics or whatever, some sort of multi-year window would be appropriate.
The individual this thread was about ended up losing at Regionals to another transgender swimmer (although this was a FTM transgender swimmer who says they have not begun hormone treatment, so competitively was considered a woman while identifying as a man.)
The Washington Post has a big article about this situation up now:
Quote
A transgender college swimmer is shattering records, sparking a debate over fairness
By Rick Maese
January 10, 2022 at 9:00 a.m. EST
PHILADELPHIA — Wearing a blue swim cap, Lia Thomas dived into the pool and sprinted ahead to the first turn. The University of Pennsylvania swimmer had already pushed through weeks of attention, online criticism and scientific debate, so nothing was slowing her down Saturday at Sheerr Pool in the final home meet of a collegiate career that had been completely unremarkable until exploding into the latest flash point in an ongoing culture war.
The 22-year-old zipped past her competitors from Yale and Dartmouth and was again first to the wall. It looked effortless, providing more proof that she's among the best female college swimmers in the country — and more evidence that her detractors will use to say she doesn't belong in the pool.
For three years, Thomas had competed for the men's swimming team at Penn. After undergoing more than two years of hormone replacement therapy, the transgender woman now competes for the school's women's team, and her fast times have sparked a debate from the starting blocks to online message boards to cable news networks.
Thomas has shattered school records and has posted the fastest times of any female college swimmer in two events this season. She'll probably be a favorite at the NCAA championships in March, even as people inside and outside the sport debate her place on the pool deck.
Her success has sent waves of controversy across the swimming world, too. Parents of other Penn swimmers sent a letter to the NCAA and the school last month expressing concern about the rules that allow Thomas to compete against women and the precedent she is setting, which the parents called a "direct threat to female athletes in every sport."
"All you expect is a fair chance," one parent said in a recent interview, speaking on the condition of anonymity to protect her daughter's privacy. (Her daughter and other Penn swimmers, including Thomas, were not made available for interviews.) "There is no chance this year. They train hard but know that they cannot beat Lia."
Classifying transgender athletes has amounted to a delicate balancing act for officials in several sports, a tug-of-war of sorts between inclusivity and fairness. The NCAA's transgender athlete policy allows transgender women to compete in women's events after completing a full year of testosterone suppression treatment. Thomas has been undergoing treatment for the past 2½ years and says it has depleted her of the strength and speed she had when competing for the men's team.
But some researchers say Thomas's times show one year of treatment isn't necessarily enough to level the playing field, and detractors say her continued participation is unfair to the other swimmers.
Since she obliterated two school records and posted nation-leading times at a meet last month, Thomas has garnered attention from across the swimming community and right-wing media. Credentialed media at Saturday's meet included Fox News, Newsweek, the Daily Mail and ESPN. Tennis icons Martina Navratilova and Chris Evert have publicly said Thomas has no business competing in women's swimming, as has Olympian Erika Brown, who said last month it's "time to start standing up for women's sports."
"A few years of testosterone blockers and estrogen doesn't change the fact that she will have more powerful muscles, a larger heart and greater lung capacity [than] a biological woman," Brown, who won two relay medals at the Tokyo Games last summer, wrote in an Instagram story post.
Last week, both Penn and the Ivy League issued statements supporting Thomas. The school said it is "committed to being a welcoming and inclusive environment for all our student-athletes, coaches and staff," while the conference expressed an "unwavering commitment to providing an inclusive environment for all student-athletes while condemning transphobia and discrimination in any form."
Nancy Hogshead-Makar, chief executive of Champion Women, a women's sports advocacy organization, said concerns around Thomas's spot on the women's team aren't rooted in transphobia or discrimination. Hogshead-Makar's issues are with the rule book that allows Thomas to compete in women's sports and with sports officials whom the advocate argues are putting Thomas's competitors at a disadvantage.
"This topic is very uncomfortable for people. They don't understand it, and so they took the lazy way out," said Hogshead-Makar, who won four swimming medals at the 1984 Los Angeles Olympics. "The lazy way out is saying, 'Put them in the women's category.'
"To blow up the women's category is just not the answer. This makes the women's category meaningless."
'Nowhere close'
Thomas began swimming at 5 and eventually spent three years competing for the men's team at Penn. She realized in the summer of 2018 that she was transgender, she has said, which cast uncertainty on her swimming career. Thomas continued competing on the men's team even after beginning hormone replacement therapy in May 2019.
That fall, she came out to her teammates but remained on the men's team as she transitioned, she said during an appearance on a SwimSwam podcast last month.
"It was a very awkward experience of basically being a woman competing in a men's meet," she said.
In summer 2020, Thomas began submitting medical paperwork and doctors' notes to the NCAA, which cleared her to compete as a woman. After the coronavirus pandemic wiped out the 2020-21 swim season, Thomas returned to Penn last fall as a member of the women's team.
She said the spironolactone treatment resulted in muscle loss and she has been unable to replicate her previous training and race times.
"I have to readjust my goals and what I think of as a good time or a good pace to hold in practice," she said on the podcast. "Times and paces I held in meets before, I'm often nowhere close to now."
While her times haven't matched what she posted as a member of the men's team, they've been significantly better than what most female swimmers manage.
Her fastest 200-yard freestyle time before this year was 1 minute 39.31 seconds. This season, she posted a 1:41.93, a 2.6 percent drop. That's the fastest time by any female college swimmer this year, 0.64 seconds faster than Olympian Torri Huske. Thomas also has posted the nation's best 500-yard freestyle time this season at 4:34.06, nearly three seconds faster than Olympian Brooke Forde.
Researchers from the Mayo Clinic, Duke University and Marquette University recently studied Thomas's times from before and after she transitioned. They found her recent times were about 5 percent slower across all distances, according to an article they published. The gender gap between elite college and international swimmers is 10 to 15 percent for shorter distances and 7 to 10 percent for longer ones, they wrote.
"Everybody wants to maximize each individual's opportunity to participate and be as inclusive as possible," one of the researchers, Michael Joyner, a physiologist at the Mayo Clinic, said in an interview. "But how do you balance that inclusion at the individual level with the fairness to the entire field? That's really the split-the-baby question."
Joyner, who has spent his career studying human performance, notes that elite male and female swimmers start to diverge around ages 11 and 12 as boys hit puberty and testosterone levels begin to spike. He said Thomas's times might be illustrating that taking suppressants doesn't negate the hormonal impact of puberty.
"The thing you have to ask yourself is, 'To what extent are there potential legacy effects of testosterone?' " he said.
A decade-old policy
The NCAA issued a 38-page handbook in 2011 to outline its stance on transgender athletes, saying that "any strength and endurance advantages a transgender woman arguably may have as a result of her prior testosterone levels dissipate after about one year of estrogen or testosterone-suppression therapy."
The NCAA did not respond to a request for comment last week, but in a video posted in April, LaGwyn Durden, the organization's director of sports medicine, said this is a complex issue and noted the science is far from definitive.
"The science/medical community really hasn't reached a consensus on testosterone threshold," she said. "We don't have a definitive answer about that. If there is a threshold, what should that threshold be? That's one piece that really makes this problematic when we're trying to make policy."
Others dismiss the idea that Thomas unfairly benefits from biological advantages. Before transitioning, she consulted with Schuyler Bailar, a former Harvard athlete and the first openly trans swimmer to compete in Division I. Bailar says biodiversity is an innate part of sports and many great athletes benefit from certain biological or genetic gifts.
"Lia is a great athlete because she is a great athlete and has worked hard for 17 years to be great at something she loves," Bailar recently posted on social media. "The belief that all [people assigned male at birth] are better at sports is rooted in the sexist belief that boys are, by default, better at sports than girls, which is false."
There have been a handful of transgender college athletes before Thomas, and many made headlines simply by transitioning and continuing to compete. Sports, for many, are core to their identity — both before and after transitioning. As Thomas said on the podcast, she's able to "continue to do the sport I love as my authentic self."
"That experience in swimming," she said, "and being in a swimsuit 20 hours a week has helped me accept my body as it is and being proud and comfortable in my body and who I am."
The transgender college athletes who came before Thomas haven't challenged records or put themselves in position to hoist championship trophies. While her recent success quickly exploded into a cultural debate for some, many in the swim world are focused on the competitors chasing her to the final wall.
"For me, fairness is the most important thing. I think the NCAA policy issued in 2011 was not really based much on scientific knowledge," said the parent. "So this is all about the rules. It's not really about Lia. She followed the rules."
Parents say several Penn swimmers have shared their concerns with the coaches but the school has continuously voiced its support for Thomas.
No coaches or swimmers were made available to reporters at Saturday's meet. Thomas said on the podcast last month that her team has been nothing but supportive this season and she tries to avoid any chatter from outside the Penn program.
"I don't engage with it," she said. "It's not healthy for me to read it or engage with it at all."
A cold reception
Despite freezing temperatures, two women shouted into bullhorns and waved signs near the entrance to Sheerr Pool on Saturday afternoon. "Stand up 4 women," one sign read.
"Come on, Penn, we know you're cheating," one of the protesters shouted. "This is not fair; this is not sport. It is that simple. Males and females are different."
Inside the building, the bleachers were only half-full as coronavirus restrictions closed the meet to all but select family members and supporters. The swimmers themselves provided the energy, circling the pool and cheering on teammates.
By now, Thomas has grown accustomed to finishing first, and Saturday's meet was no different. In the 200 free she posted a winning time of 1:48.73, nearly two seconds ahead of the next-fastest swimmer. Later, in the 500, she finished in 4:57.20, nearly 1½ seconds ahead of the field but more than 23 seconds off her season-best time from last month.
Thomas also lost a pair of races: the 100 free and the 4x100 freestyle relay. She finished sixth in the short sprint, nearly three seconds behind Yale's Izzi Henig, and then found herself struggling to chase down Henig's Bulldogs in the anchor leg of the relay.
Henig is a transgender male on the Yale squad but has put off hormone therapy for now and continues to compete on the school's women's team.
Though Thomas's times Saturday were well off her season-best marks, they probably won't quiet any dissent.
Along with Navratilova, Hogshead-Makar is part of the Women's Sports Policy Working Group, an advocacy organization that says it's trying to affirm girls' and women's sports "while including transgender athletes."
While she says transgender women who've never experienced male puberty should be permitted to compete against women, Hogshead-Maker says it's possible there are enough transgender athletes in some sports to merit a wholly new competitive category.
Roger Pielke Jr., director of the Sports Governance Center at the University of Colorado, noted that sports organizations have always grappled with complicated classifications, from disabled athletes to competitors switching nationalities. He noted that international soccer players are "cap-tied" and at the elite level cannot compete for one country and then change nationalities and compete for another.
"This would make sense for gender as well," he said. "If an athlete competes in men/women categories, [he or she] would no longer be eligible to change categories.
"Just like in Paralympic classification, science does not make these decisions for us, but science can certainly help to inform our decisions," Pielke added. "Ultimately, classification decisions reflect our values, who we are and what we want sport and the society of which it is a part to be."
I do see two comments in this article that express arguments I find disingenuous. One is the one from the parents of the female swimmers at Penn:
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"All you expect is a fair chance," one parent said in a recent interview, speaking on the condition of anonymity to protect her daughter's privacy. (Her daughter and other Penn swimmers, including Thomas, were not made available for interviews.) "There is no chance this year. They train hard but know that they cannot beat Lia."
My issue with this argument is sport does not guarantee a fair chance, the gender division of sport does not guarantee a fair chance because physical attributes within the genders are not fair between all members of each gender. I go back to the example of your kid plays basketball and is really good, and goes to a D1 school, and has to play against that generation's Michael Jordan for a starting position. It is the case that "unfairly", Michael Jordan is going to be the starter and your kid isn't. Nothing they do is ever going to change that, because he was born with better genetics than your kid was. That is an intrinsic reality of sport.
The other thing argument I disagree with:
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Others dismiss the idea that Thomas unfairly benefits from biological advantages. Before transitioning, she consulted with Schuyler Bailar, a former Harvard athlete and the first openly trans swimmer to compete in Division I. Bailar says biodiversity is an innate part of sports and many great athletes benefit from certain biological or genetic gifts.
"Lia is a great athlete because she is a great athlete and has worked hard for 17 years to be great at something she loves," Bailar recently posted on social media. "The belief that all [people assigned male at birth] are better at sports is rooted in the sexist belief that boys are, by default, better at sports than girls, which is false."
So this person is making the argument that boys are not intrinsically better at sports than girls--if this is the case, what is the reason an athlete like Lia Thomas, who prior to transitioning competed on the men's team, switched to the women's team? If there is no intrinsic advantage to being a boy, why not just stay in the division they were already in?
I think the argument of the parents of the female swimmers is a shorthand for the actual argument, which is more along the lines of "All we expect is a fair chance to compete against other female athletes who share a common biological gender basis for athletic competitiveness". This seems obvious to me, since they cannot possibly mean otherwise, for the reasons you state (there is clearly nothing "fair" about the non-gender, genetic dispersion of athletic ability within genders).
To me, this is like saying it would not be fair to have to compete against someone who had a propeller installed in their ass that shoots them through the water at 30 knots. Sure, that might be interesting. Heck, maybe they had some related medical issue that needed propeller intervention to fix. But it is clearly not a level playing field within the definitional constraints of the field itself anymore.
The belief that boys are, by default, better then girls at sports is simply true. It is not sexist, it is just reality. Assuming, of course, we define "sports" in this context as being a stand in for general athletic ability around most (but not all) measures that drive athletic performance.