Languish.org

I was reading white paper an IEEE publication about an Internet of Things contact tracing.  There's a number of standards under development, but most worked by using Bluetooth to record when your smart phone within a transmission risk distance for a transmission risk of time and send that information to a database.  If you then test positive for Covid the hospital can alert a central authority (such as the CDC) which can access the database and send alerts to the people that you may have infected (or may have infected you.)

Most of the article dealt with protocols to avoid eavesdropping and preserve privacy.  One of the protocols was being developed by Apple and Google; I saw that and thought "Oh, hell no"; but even if the protocol adopted was by a more trustworthy source no system is perfect.  Would you be willing to accept the potential risk to your privacy in order to stop the spread of a disease?

I mean all the obvious issues I would have with this are already probably happening. Can't Google already do all this shit?

When it comes to such privacy matters, my concern is not with malevolence, but rather with incompetence.  The sad reality is that if my government, or even any government, decides to spy on me through my phone, the odds of me being able to do anything about it or even knowing about it are small.  What concerns me is an incompetent implementation giving a backdoor to criminal actors.

Quote from: Valmy on August 11, 2021, 11:39:58 AM
I mean all the obvious issues I would have with this are already probably happening. Can't Google already do all this shit?

Google Maps will send you a nice monthly summary if you let it.

Yeah - I use the NHS covid app. Contact tracing, QR code of my vaccine/testing status, scan QR codes to sign in for test and trace etc. I think these apps are standard in Europe and have been reviewed by or had opinions issued by privacy regulators.

I agree on the risks and I agree on the Google Apple thing in particular - my understanding is they have adopted a de-centralised model nrather than a central database. The UK and French and German public health authorities all wanted to design an app that worked on centralised basis but it wouldn't work in line with the parameters that Google and Apple set for access to the app store. The British tried to develop a clever technical fix that ultimately didn't work before eventually moving to the Google/Apple standard, the Germans and the French adopted the Google/Apple standard more quickly but both basically noted they weren't happy with this.

And I think it raises questions beyond just the covid app of moving public services to digital by default which is a big thing in the UK will mean designing the apps that support those service in accordance with the parameters set by two private companies based in the US. I think there is, and this was raised by the French, a problem of democracy with that. In the case of the covid app I feel like the decision should be made by public authorities who are accountable to a democratically elected government - flipside is if Google/Apple set standards then they can basically say "we do this everywhere and we don't re-design for governments" when authoritarian regimes want to launch apps. So I don't know what the answer is on that. But I think it's a problem.

I thought my cell phone already tracked my movements.  It's not a big deal, I don't go anywhere

Quote from: Tamas on August 11, 2021, 11:43:35 AM

Quote from: Valmy on August 11, 2021, 11:39:58 AM
I mean all the obvious issues I would have with this are already probably happening. Can't Google already do all this shit?

Google Maps will send you a nice monthly summary if you let it.

I figure they are already tracking me so I might as well have access to that data. It also has been useful on many occasions on gov't paperwork where I needed to know how many days I was out of the country, or what days was I in which countries. Much more precise than sorting through scraps of emails in my inbox.

An automatic diary of sorts when I pair it up against my photo log.

Yeah, one way you're definitely tracked is by cell phone signals.  The first couple of times I read up on some police investigation, it was eye-opening how routine it is for police to get your cell signal records, at which point they have a pretty good idea where your cell phone was at what time.  I guess it still remains to prove that your cell phone was with you, but at that point I assume your detailed activity on the phone would be subpoenaed.

Yes. I actually used one the entire pandemic. Plus, I let google track me everywhere.

Quote from: DGuller on August 11, 2021, 01:07:00 PM
Yeah, one way you're definitely tracked is by cell phone signals.  The first couple of times I read up on some police investigation, it was eye-opening how routine it is for police to get your cell signal records, at which point they have a pretty good idea where your cell phone was at what time.  I guess it still remains to prove that your cell phone was with you, but at that point I assume your detailed activity on the phone would be subpoenaed.

I did a case a few years ago where it was critical to identify were a particular person was at a particular time.  We (our expert) was able to do that by triangulating data from cell towers to pinpoint the persons exact location.

I installed the Covid tracing app on my phone when it was launched about a year ago. I recently found out it had been put in deep sleep mode by my phone a few months later :blush:

Quote from: Sheilbh on August 11, 2021, 11:43:54 AM
Yeah - I use the NHS covid app. Contact tracing, QR code of my vaccine/testing status, scan QR codes to sign in for test and trace etc. I think these apps are standard in Europe and have been reviewed by or had opinions issued by privacy regulators.

Same, I have two contact tracing apps installed, one from the national government and another from the regional one. I've never received any warning, though. The regional government app doubles/triples as a repository of current restrictions in place in the region, as well as a way to obtain a digital vaccination certificate.

Quote from: Tamas on August 11, 2021, 11:43:35 AM

Quote from: Valmy on August 11, 2021, 11:39:58 AM
I mean all the obvious issues I would have with this are already probably happening. Can't Google already do all this shit?

Google Maps will send you a nice monthly summary if you let it.

I personally find it very useful, mostly to remember the name of a bar/restaurant you visited but can't remember, or to see which particular day you made a certain trip.

Well, the French app Tous anti-Covid works in the way Sheilbh described. Bluetooth has to be activated though, and most of the time, to save battery I don't enable it, except in crowded environments.

So yes. A cell phone is fairly easy to trace anyways.

Quote from: Duque de Bragança on August 11, 2021, 02:36:55 PM
Well, the French app Tous anti-Covid works in the way Sheilbh described. Bluetooth has to be activated though, and most of the time, to save battery I don't enable it, except in crowded environments.

So yes. A cell phone is fairly easy to trace anyways.

That is my problem with the contact tracing apps, I don't keep Bluetooth on usually.

I have the German contact tracing app on my phone. It interoperates with some other EU contact tracing apps.

I guess I wouldn't care.  I wouldn't go out of my way to download such software, but were it to be already on there or an intelligence agency to backdoor it in, I likely wouldn't care.

Quote from: Savonarola on August 11, 2021, 11:27:28 AM
Would you be willing to accept the potential risk to your privacy in order to stop the spread of a disease?

I already have developped by the Govt of Canada on my phone, since last year. :)