Woke up this morning to read two articles mentioning QAnon in Europe.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/oct/22/one-in-four-britons-believe-in-qanon-linked-theories-survey
QuoteOne in four Britons believe in QAnon-linked theories – survey
One in four people in Britain agree with conspiracies propagated by QAnon, the global movement claiming there is a secret satanic network of child-abusing politicians and celebrities, a survey has found.
The research for Hope Not Hate also found that 17% of people questioned said they believed Covid-19 was intentionally released as part of a "depopulation plan" by the UN or "new world order".
It found that QAnon, which originated in the US where the FBI has designated it as a potential terror threat, is making particular inroads among young people.
While 6% of those polled claimed to support QAnon, larger percentages supported broader, linked conspiracies. A quarter (25%) agreed that "secret satanic cults exist and include influential elites". This rose to 35% among people aged 18-24. A similar proportion (26%) agreed that "elites in Hollywood, politics, the media and other powerful positions" are secretly engaging in large-scale child trafficking and abuse.
There was more support (29%) for the claim that there is "a single group of people who secretly control events and rule the world together" regardless of who is in government. This was believed by 42% of 25- to 34-year-olds.
The findings are based on an online survey carried out between 8 and 11 September by Hanbury Strategy, a consultancy company and member of the British Polling Council.
Donald Trump has repeatedly refused to disavow QAnon, whose followers believe he is waging a secret war against an elite who engage in ritual child abuse.
In Britain, QAnon's messages and memes have increasingly popped up in social media communities and at street demonstrations against lockdowns, mandatory face coverings and vaccination plans.
Hope Not Hate said the movement sustained antisemitic conspiracy theories and provided access to a pool of people for the far-right to exploit, although it said it was not solely a far-right phenomenon.
The charity identified a number of Britons based at home and abroad as influential players in the movement. It said the spread of QAnon conspiracies risked sowing a "dangerous distrust" in institutions and risked obscuring genuine child abuse and hampering legitimate efforts for better child welfare.
"The incorporation of Covid-19 conspiracy theories into the QAnon narrative has the potential to erode trust in medical experts and authorities, and further the spread of health misinformation and pseudoscience in the midst of a global pandemic," it added.
Analysis by the Guardian last month found that QAnon was gaining ground across UK social media, propelled by a loose coalition of spirituality and wellness groups, vigilante "paedophile hunter" networks, pre-existing conspiracy forums, local news pages, pro-Brexit campaigners and the far right.
After tracking five slogans associated with QAnon shared by UK-run Facebook pages over the past year, interactions on posts containing those keywords were found to have increased fivefold between April and August, the last full month for which data was available.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/21/berlin-vandalism-of-museum-artefacts-linked-to-conspiracy-theorists
QuoteBerlin: vandalism of museum artefacts 'linked to conspiracy theorists'
At least 70 artworks and ancient artefacts across three galleries on Berlin's museum island were vandalised with an oily substance earlier this month, German media has reported.
Objects including Egyptian sarcophagi, stone sculptures and 19th-century paintings held at the Pergamon Museum, the Alte Nationalgalerie and the Neues Museum sustained visible damage during the attack on 3 October, according to reports in the weekly Die Zeit and broadcaster Deutschlandfunk on Tuesday.
News of the attack was kept from the public for more than two weeks.
The Prussian Heritage Foundation, which oversees the museum island collections, reportedly confirmed that objects in the exhibitions had sustained damage. Police in the German capital said they had launched an investigation but would not comment on a motive behind the attack.
In 2018 two women were arrested in the Greek capital, Athens, after smearing museum exhibits at the National Museum of History with an oily substance. The two women, later identified as being of Bulgarian origin, told police they were spraying the artworks with oil and myrrh "because the Holy Scripture says it is miraculous".
But German media have linked the museum island attack to conspiracy theories pushed through social media channels by prominent coronavirus deniers in recent months.
One such theory claims that the Pergamon Museum is the centre of the "global satanism scene" because it holds a reconstruction of the ancient Greek Pergamon Altar.
Attila Hildmann, a former vegan celebrity chef who has become one of Germany's best-known proponents of the baseless QAnon conspiracy theory, posted messages on Telegram in August and September in which he suggested that the German chancellor, Angela Merkel, was using the altar for "human sacrifices".
On Tuesday night Hildmann, who has over 100,000 followers on his public Telegram channel, posted a link to the Deutschlandfunk article with the words: "Fact! It is the throne of Baal (Satan)."
Hildmann (who I hadn't heard of before he became a complete nutter - his nicknames by now include "Avocadolf" and "Rice Chancellor" due to his call for returning to the "good old days" of German nationalism & power) has gone so far the off the deep end I'm surprised he hasn't been sectioned yet.
There have been news of growing QAnon following in Finland, too.
Wooo ' merica
Believing in Hitler as a German is stupid enough.
Believing in Hitler as a Pole then you've got a screw loose.
Quote from: Tyr on October 22, 2020, 04:17:45 AM
Believing in Hitler as a German is stupid enough.
Believing in Hitler as a Pole then you've got a screw loose.
Indeed. He was Austrian.
Quote from: Syt on October 22, 2020, 02:50:12 AM
Hildmann (who I hadn't heard of before he became a complete nutter - his nicknames by now include "Avocadolf" and "Rice Chancellor" due to his call for returning to the "good old days" of German nationalism & power) has gone so far the off the deep end I'm surprised he hasn't been sectioned yet.
Nice nicknames. :)
Christ, and our nuts are still stuck with Soros and Bill Gates. No creativity whatsoever.
Quote from: celedhring on October 22, 2020, 04:30:56 AM
Christ, and our nuts are still stuck with Soros and Bill Gates. No creativity whatsoever.
Come on, give Iker Jiménez some recognition. I think he was discussing recently how Covid was created in a Chinese laboratory. :P
There was a really good piece in the Guardian on QAnon that's a bit more of a long-read:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/20/the-qanon-conspiracy?utm_source=pocket-newtab-global-en-GB
I think part of it in the UK that isn't really mentioned is that we are possibly particularly receptive to the core claim of basically elite child-sex trafficking because of Savile and other historic sexual abuse that's come to light by MPs like Cyril Smith in Rochdale (where of course there's been modern sexual abuse by predominately Pakistani cab drivers) or senior police officers etc. Even at the time the Westminster allegations were getting into very clearly over-egged territory and seemed, to me, to focus on the old victims of conspiracy theories - I noticed lots of Jewish politicians and gay men who were at the time (70s and 80s) in the closet. But these allegations were being pushed by respectable MPs and light TV programs like This Morning. And it has become a trope of recent UK police shows (Line of Duty, Hinterland etc).
It's really difficult to move past that because we have evidence that this did exist and the independent inquiry into it found that the police and other politicians turned a blind eye to child abuse. It was known by people at the time that Cyril Smith and Richard Morrison were if not abusing children, interested in them and that was ignored. But the inquiry found no evidence of an organised paedophile ring. And one of the main accusers has since been jailed for some really extraordinary false allegations (e.g. Ted Heath raped and murdered a young boy). Of course if you're conspiracy minded and you're looking at a police investigation and an official inquiry - especially one that basically says the establishment did turn a blind eye to this - you'd say, well of course they didn't find that it was organised they are the same establishment that turned a blind eye the first time.
You know there's that thing about conspiracy being a way to organise the world. What we know as a fact is that there were a number of entertainers, actors, politicians, senior police officers and, no doubt, financiers, royals etc who abused children. I think it is almost more reassuring to think they were part of some satanic cult rather than those people wanted to abuse children and, separately, we as a society just didn't care about those children, but I think that's the case when weighed against a famous entertainer, actor, MP etc.
Quote from: katmai on October 22, 2020, 04:11:21 AM
Wooo ' merica
Right? Who says American soft power is in decline?
Quote from: Sheilbh on October 22, 2020, 05:45:54 AM
You know there's that thing about conspiracy being a way to organise the world. What we know as a fact is that there were a number of entertainers, actors, politicians, senior police officers and, no doubt, financiers, royals etc who abused children. I think it is almost more reassuring to think they were part of some satanic cult rather than those people wanted to abuse children and, separately, we as a society just didn't care about those children, but I think that's the case when weighed against a famous entertainer, actor, MP etc.
It is kind of comforting to think that maybe there is some substance to these conspiracy theories. That they are not just reactionary paranoia. That if we become better and address our sins then God will stop punishing us with unreasonable people. But this is not the case.
Further I have to disagree with your main point here. You are at least a fan of the Roman Catholic Church. Was it the case that abuse was solely carried out by bishops? No. Priests and other low level people carried out a ton of abuse and were protected. And this goes on in all kinds of institutions throughout our society.
And it is certainly not that we just don't fucking care about children and just worship teachers and janitors and child care workers and abusive parents or whomever else might be doing this. Abusing children is one of the most abhorrent acts you can do and generates an instant emotional reaction from people, which is why it is forming the basis of this conspiracy theory. Because it has emotional power. But this power also makes it hard to confront.
But just as we have a strong emotional to child sex abuse we also have a really hard time understanding it and dealing with it. And our whole society is kind of built on adults caring for and being responsible for children. Further, children have a hard time communicating what is happening to them and abusive adults are very good at controlling them. It is really complicated and difficult to deal with.
I think society DOES have a big problem letting elites get away with using their power to take advantage of adults. Like if we hear Prince Doofus, or whomever, has a whole string of affairs with his staff or whatever we might just be like 'Hey well it is good to be the Prince' or whatever. Or at least we did until recently. But I have a hard time imaginging the 'Prince Doofus is luring children back to his castle to have sex with them' being widely publicly accepted. But I don't live in the UK so maybe everybody would be cool with it...but I doubt it.
As a child of the 1980s I am so fucking tired of this Satanic Panic shit that keeps being brought out. There are no Satanic cults out there. I think we have burned enough witches here in the English speaking world. No need to persecture more innocent people over this shit.
Quote from: Valmy on October 22, 2020, 02:03:45 PM
Further I have to disagree with your main point here. You are at least a fan of the Roman Catholic Church. Was it the case that abuse was solely carried out by bishops? No. Priests and other low level people carried out a ton of abuse and were protected. And this goes on in all kinds of institutions throughout our society.
And it is certainly not that we just don't fucking care about children and just worship teachers and janitors and child care workers and abusive parents or whomever else might be doing this. Abusing children is one of the most abhorrent acts you can do and generates an instant emotional reaction from people, which is why it is forming the basis of this conspiracy theory. Because it has emotional power. But this power also makes it hard to confront.
I'm not sure how my main point came across because I don't think I put it right, based on your response.
Yeah - I mean in Ireland there's currently a scandal going on about child sexual abuse within the St John's Ambulance. I think the point is there are various people who may not balance it against the individual they protect (though in some cases they might), but that they balance that child against their desire to protect an institution: the BBC, the Catholic Church, the Church of England, Parliament, the Police, the Royal Family, the football club, the school, the St John's Ambulance. And, all too often - especially when we look at these historic cases - the desire to protect the institution outweight the child's voice.
QuoteBut just as we have a strong emotional to child sex abuse we also have a really hard time understanding it and dealing with it. And our whole society is kind of built on adults caring for and being responsible for children. Further, children have a hard time communicating what is happening to them and abusive adults are very good at controlling them. It is really complicated and difficult to deal with.
I think society DOES have a big problem letting elites get away with using their power to take advantage of adults. Like if we hear Prince Doofus, or whomever, has a whole string of affairs with his staff or whatever we might just be like 'Hey well it is good to be the Prince' or whatever. Or at least we did until recently. But I have a hard time imaginging the 'Prince Doofus is luring children back to his castle to have sex with them' being widely publicly accepted. But I don't live in the UK so maybe everybody would be cool with it...but I doubt it.
Agreed but this isn't just about the elites - that's been a focus of conspiracy theories (with some justification: actors, directors, politicians, clergymen) in the UK. And part of that is a function of time, so I think attitudes were just very different in the 70s and 80s (certainly in the UK). Children weren't trusted or believed (and, of course, abusers target the vulnerable: the "problem" child, the young offender, the orphan).
But you had the context of sexual liberation which paedophiles exploited. Liberty (like our version of the ACLU) had an affiliate organisation called the Paedophile Information Exchange for about 10 years from the mid-70s to the early 80s. There's a really good piece on this by the BBC (and interestingly they faced no platforming and boycotts at universities and generally defended themselves with free speech):
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-26352378
I also think society doesn't value children equally. So there's been the recent cases of largely British-Pakistani taxi drivers in Rochdale and some other towns grooming and sexually abusing young teenage girls. Part of the reason this happened is that the girls were often people who would be out in town on their own late at night - very often they were in care, some were homeless, very few had a sort of safe, stable home. A lot of the grooming started with the cab drivers offering a warm place to sit for a while, or buying chips for them, or also drugs and alcohol and then expecting something in return. It has turned out that social services and the police were aware of at least some individual cases and didn't really investigate - because these children are on the periphery, they were "trouble" and their complaints were ignored. It's a different context, but it's the same dynamic. As a society these kids we've let fall through the gaps and we choose to ignore. It's worth saying that these stories have been picked up and are a big thing on the far-right in the UK, but there the emphasis is on the fact that the cab drivers have a Pakistani background (I think there have been other examples in other areas where the abuse is just by whatever demographic are the cab drivers in that area - these are ignored) rather than on the social failing.
Quote from: Valmy on October 22, 2020, 02:06:18 PM
There are no Satanic cults out there.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_of_Set
(https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_of_Set)
Quote from: Eddie Teach on October 22, 2020, 04:10:51 PM
Quote from: Valmy on October 22, 2020, 02:06:18 PM
There are no Satanic cults out there.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_of_Set
(https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_of_Set)
You used as an example a group that says they are not a satanic cult.
Fascinating piece on modern conspiracy theories in the latest LRB:
https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v42/n20/james-meek/red-pill-blue-pill
This line in particular rang true:
QuoteI was reminded of one of the reasons it's so difficult to argue with conspiracy theorists: you're faced with a choice between challenging limitless errors one by one, or denouncing an entire edifice of belief, which usually means calling the conspiracy theorist mad or stupid, at which point conspiracy theory has won. It's like a forest fire that can only be put out one square inch at a time, or all at once, and so can never be put out.
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 22, 2020, 05:00:42 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on October 22, 2020, 04:10:51 PM
Quote from: Valmy on October 22, 2020, 02:06:18 PM
There are no Satanic cults out there.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_of_Set
(https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_of_Set)
You used as an example a group that says they are not a satanic cult.
Read the description of how it was founded.
My favorite line about conspiracy theories was called "the O.J. Simpson defense." The belief that the absence of proof of a conspiracy proves how effective the conspiracy was.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 22, 2020, 05:21:33 PM
My favorite line about conspiracy theories was called "the O.J. Simpson defense." The belief that the absence of proof of a conspiracy proves how effective the conspiracy was.
I was reminded of https://youtu.be/34Em8BkZYnI
Quote from: Eddie Teach on October 22, 2020, 05:20:27 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 22, 2020, 05:00:42 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on October 22, 2020, 04:10:51 PM
Quote from: Valmy on October 22, 2020, 02:06:18 PM
There are no Satanic cults out there.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_of_Set
(https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_of_Set)
You used as an example a group that says they are not a satanic cult.
Read the description of how it was founded.
It's a spinoff of another explicitly non-satanic-cult movement.
The founder claimed to have summoned Satan. Good enough for me.
Quote from: Eddie Teach on October 23, 2020, 12:39:04 AM
The founder claimed to have summoned Satan. Good enough for me.
Ok so we found a religion that claims to be satanic. Now all you need to show is that they pose a threat to anybody and have cultic tendencies. I mean why would we panic just because 100 or so kooks are doing weird esoteric woowoo shit?
Satanism is supposed to mean child abuse. That is what Satanic panic is about.
Quote from: Valmy on October 22, 2020, 02:03:45 PM
Further I have to disagree with your main point here. You are at least a fan of the Roman Catholic Church. Was it the case that abuse was solely carried out by bishops? No. Priests and other low level people carried out a ton of abuse and were protected. And this goes on in all kinds of institutions throughout our society.
IIRC, the abuse was committed by priests, who may have become bishops later on, but by this time, I'm not entirely sure they were still committing abuse. The bishops' sin was to cover the priests by shuffling them from parish to parish instead of going to the authorities.
Quote
And it is certainly not that we just don't fucking care about children and just worship teachers and janitors and child care workers and abusive parents or whomever else might be doing this. Abusing children is one of the most abhorrent acts you can do and generates an instant emotional reaction from people, which is why it is forming the basis of this conspiracy theory. Because it has emotional power. But this power also makes it hard to confront.
I think there's a difference in believing a victim and alerting the authorities of suspected abuse (say, a teacher, talking to her student, realizes there's something wrong going on at home who refers the situation to child services) and believing in a wild conspiracy involving an international paedophile ring of men and women of power.
I think America is found of such conspiracy theories as
fiction, it is often a recurring theme in movies&tv shows, especially a conspiracy at the highest levels of the government, conspiring against individuals, or against the State.
Quote
But just as we have a strong emotional to child sex abuse we also have a really hard time understanding it and dealing with it. And our whole society is kind of built on adults caring for and being responsible for children. Further, children have a hard time communicating what is happening to them and abusive adults are very good at controlling them. It is really complicated and difficult to deal with.
I think the key here is sex-ed. Quebec changed its approach to sex-ed teaching a few years ago, and I really wonder (and certainly hope) it well help children understand that was his happening to them ain't their fault and ain't normal behavior they should just endure. The sexual abuse part is thought from the early ages of elementary school, and it evolves with the age of the kids.
Quote
I think society DOES have a big problem letting elites get away with using their power to take advantage of adults. Like if we hear Prince Doofus, or whomever, has a whole string of affairs with his staff or whatever we might just be like 'Hey well it is good to be the Prince' or whatever. Or at least we did until recently. But I have a hard time imaginging the 'Prince Doofus is luring children back to his castle to have sex with them' being widely publicly accepted. But I don't live in the UK so maybe everybody would be cool with it...but I doubt it.
Well, Michael Jackson was still very popular after the first allegations...
I don't know. the way I see it, is (collectively, as a society, in our countries), we care deeply about
our children. The ones we know of, the ones we've held in our arms, the ones we talk to regularly. But others? We kinda push it away, like we don't want to hear about it, because we kind tell ourselves that's it's not our responsibility to intervene there. Like you said, we expect parents to take care of their children, and I think sometimes we figure that if a kid ends up in a bad place, it's the fault of the parent, and not society at large, so we're not really committing actions to really fight against the root cause.
I've talked about sex-ed above and I think it's a good example: there was a lot of... non gentle debate on this issue. Lots of teachers did not want to teach this subject, lots of parents wanted to forbid school to teach this to their kids... But it's kinda the basis of everything, empowering the child to understand his/her body, determining if a relationship is abusive or not and taking steps to be protected by others when it happens.
Yet, lots of people are blinded at that and don't want to hear about it....
It's like women and sexual abuse. Whenever the subject appears, I always see the same comment over&over:
It's up to fathers to teach their sons to respect women... Society has no role to play whatsoever, schools is absent, only parents are there... I think instead of this wishful thinking, we should teach girls from the earliest age that it could happen, and they should feel no fear and no shame of reporting it to their parents/family/superior/police depending on the context.
The biggest problem in sexual harassment/assault is how long many women will wait to finally report it, and ater 20-25 years, it's extremely hard to find witness with a clear memory of events, who could place the accused in a relevant time and space to try and determine their guilt.
In any case, for the young women I know, it's the message I've told them after reading an horrible story harassment in my industry: if it happens, don't hesitate. Maybe you won't be believed, or maybe you'll be believed and the bastard will still get away with it, but there's a trace somewhere of the accusations. If it happens to another women, his prior accusations of the same type will resurface during an investigation/trial and there's an increased chance of nailing him then.
Quote from: Valmy on October 23, 2020, 12:49:30 AM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on October 23, 2020, 12:39:04 AM
The founder claimed to have summoned Satan. Good enough for me.
Ok so we found a religion that claims to be satanic. Now all you need to show is that they pose a threat to anybody and have cultic tendencies. I mean why would we panic just because 100 or so kooks are doing weird esoteric woowoo shit?
Oh how far have we fallen... Not so long ago, we would have burnt them at the stake for looking weird, now we simply don't care they have different beliefs :( So sad! :P
Quote
Satanism is supposed to mean child abuse. That is what Satanic panic is about.
Wasn't it about human sacrifice too? Oh, and heavy metal music with subliminal messages. That was drilled over&over into us. And the infamous trial of Judas Priest. And my mom freaking out about my music...
God, sometimes, I wonder how I survived through the 80s :P