I recall reading at some point that someone with some nobility can trace their family history back to Octavian. I have no recollection of who this was and can't say for certain I even remember correctly, but it has inspired this thread.
Do you know of anyone (not personally) that can trace their family history deep into history, and if so, how has the record been preserved? For example, for Octavian, I assume a Byzantine connection would be present to get through the dark ages. In theory, I would think that some people would be able to go back at least a century into the roman republic.
For Asian cultures, I have no idea.
I don't know anyone personally, but I read that some of the Irish nobility are able to trace their ancestry back to about 500 BC. Prior to the arrival of Christianity, though, their geneology would have been rememberd through oral history, so it's hard to know how accurate those ancestors are.
Best online genealogy page I saw on the internet was some dude claiming he was descended from one of the Spartan royal families. LOLZ. THIS IS PEORIA ILLINOIS! TONIGHT WE DINE ON DEEP DISH!
Ahem. :blush:
If you go back 2,000 years that is something like 80 generations. Just one of those female ancestors needs to have conceived from a different man to throw the whole thing out.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on July 20, 2009, 10:22:23 AM
If you go back 2,000 years that is something like 80 generations. Just one of those female ancestors needs to have conceived from a different man to throw the whole thing out.
Well yeah--I'm more interested in the continuity of record keeping and tradition than purity of blood lines.
Define traced.
QuoteOctavian
I love the fact the dude is known by a variant of his birth fathers nomen. Why we call Romans by what we do will always be a mystery to me. I mean why the heck is Claudius known by his nomen even though you could just easily call all of the male Claudians Claudius? He is just the guy designated to get to be known by his last name? Weird.
Anyway Octavian had only one child, a daughter, who had four children and only one of those, Agrippina the Elder, had 6 children...
Caligula and his brothers only had one daughter that I know of (Caligula's) and she was killed shortly after her father was assassinated.
The three sisters only had one son that I know of, Nero, and he only had one daughter who died in child birth.
So I do not see any offspring who could have gone on to sire all the nobles of Europe.
I could not possible trace my ancestory farther back than the reign of Edward I of England but there are alot of missing connections that even make this supposed ancestor questionable. You have to hope for church and court records obviously as they were the only literate people around and you have to hope your family was important enough for anybody to think it worth writing down. For a family with consistently high ranking aristocratic roots it is an easy thing to trace backwards. Mine has some minor nobility in it (obviously not my direct ancestors) so people had some interest in writting down who was descended from who.
Famously George Washington from Vladimir of Kiev:
Saint Vladimir 'The Great' I Grand Prince of Kiev (956-1015)
Father of: Jaroslav 'The Wise' I Grand Prince of Kiev (978-1054)
Father of: Anna Jaroslavna Princess of Kiev and Queen of France (1036-1082)
Mother of: Philippe 'The Fair' I Capet King of France (1053-1108)
Father of: Louis 'The Fat' VI Capet King of France (1077-1137)
Father of: Louis 'The Younger' VII Capet King of France (1119-1180)
Father of: Philippe 'Augustus' II Capet King of France (1165-1223)
Father of: Louis 'The Lion' VIII Capet King of France (1187-1226)
Father of: Saint Louis IX Capet King of France (1215-1270)
Father of: Philippe 'The Bold' III Capet King of France (1245-1285)
Father of: Philippe 'The Fair' IV Capet King of France (1268-1314)
Father of: Isabella 'The She Wolf' Capet Princess of France and Queen of England (1292-1358)
Mother of: Edward III Plantagenet King of England (1312-1377)
Father of: John Plantagenet Duke of Lancaster (1340-1399)
Father of: Joan Plantagenet Countess of Westmoreland (1379-1440)
Mother of: Eleanor Neville Countess of Northumberland (1407-1472)
Mother of: Henry Percy Earl of Northumberland (1421-1461)
Father of: Margaret Percy (1447-??)
Mother of: Elizabeth Gascoigne (1471-1559)
Mother of: Anne Talbois (??-1566)
Mother of: Frances Dymore (??-1610)
Mother of: Mildred Windebank (1584-1657)
Mother of: Colonel George Reade Governor of Virginia (1608-1671)
Father of: Mildred Reade (??-1694)
Mother of: Mildred Warner (1671-1743)
Mother of: Captain Augustine Washington (1694-1743)
Father of: General George Augustine Washington (1732-1799) 1st President of the United States
And of course with that sort of ancestory it is easy to trace George back to any major medieval dynasty...
I still need to pay the money to get those 17th century documents from Chester County in England to figure out the exact lineage of the last dude I know of but I haven't gotten around to it yet. It is not that important after all, just interesting. There are sources of genealogy from Euro public records offices wanting to make a few Euros out there...except for the Germans since we sorta blew up most of their stuff.
The Massimo noble roman family say they descend nothing less than from Quinctus Fabius Maximus "Cunctator", so they should be able to trace their ancestry up to 200 b.C.
Meh. I can trace up to my great grandfather, who spent all his material belongings betting on women and fucking horses. Or vice versa, maybe.
L.
Quote from: Pedrito on July 20, 2009, 10:32:11 AM
Meh. I can trace up to my great grandfather, who spent all his material belongings betting on women and fucking horses. Or vice versa, maybe.
I bow before your glorious lineage.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodoric_the_Great
thats me... my sources don't trace to his dad though, which is strange.
But then again, I'm Icelandic. So can automatically trace back to the 8th century with certainty. A bit further with some educated guesses.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on July 20, 2009, 10:22:23 AM
If you go back 2,000 years that is something like 80 generations. Just one of those female ancestors needs to have conceived from a different man to throw the whole thing out.
My ancestors were not sluts :angry:
My ancestors fucked a lot of Natives. Bring many shiny beads for pussy. How.
Quote from: Valmy on July 20, 2009, 10:31:44 AM
QuoteOctavian
Anyway Octavian had only one child, a daughter, who had four children and only one of those, Agrippina the Elder, had 6 children...
Caligula and his brothers only had one daughter that I know of (Caligula's) and she was killed shortly after her father was assassinated.
The three sisters only had one son that I know of, Nero, and he only had one daughter who died in child birth.
So I do not see any offspring who could have gone on to sire all the nobles of Europe.
I don't know about siring all the nobles in Europe, but it seems possible that one of Octavian's had some records survive. Six grandchildren opens up a lot of possibility.
At my last look, I traced my family history back to December of '02.
Quote from: PDH on July 20, 2009, 11:08:23 AM
At my last look, I traced my family history back to December of '02.
102? Is your ancestor Trajan?
Quote from: Valmy on July 20, 2009, 11:10:19 AM
Quote from: PDH on July 20, 2009, 11:08:23 AM
At my last look, I traced my family history back to December of '02.
102? Is your ancestor Trajan?
Who was he, some insurance salesman from Sheboygan?
IIRC The oldest traceable, believeable geneologies belong to the descendants of Arasces, founder of the Parthian Empire in the early 3rd Century B.C. The Bagratunis and various other Georgian and Armenian families can trace themselves back to him.
It would be a bitch tracing my family on my mothers side. They have three different surnames that they changed with what seems like no discression. My aunts and uncles have different last names (maiden in the case of the aunts). Same follows for their aunts and uncles.
In other news, who the fuck cares?
Quote from: PDH on July 20, 2009, 11:11:37 AM
Who was he, some insurance salesman from Sheboygan?
He was Hispanic...so I think he was a janitor or something.
Quote from: Valmy on July 20, 2009, 11:16:01 AM
Quote from: PDH on July 20, 2009, 11:11:37 AM
Who was he, some insurance salesman from Sheboygan?
He was Hispanic...so I think he was a janitor or something.
RACIS! :mad:
Not sure how far back they *can* be traced, but ours is done back to the late 900s, although we only consider it reliable as far back as the early 1100s; we've got family records going back to the 1300s, and then my great-grandmother took a trip to Ireland in the 90s to actually check headstones and got it a little further back.
Quote from: DontSayBanana on July 20, 2009, 11:18:17 AM
Not sure how far back they *can* be traced, but ours is done back to the late 900s, although we only consider it reliable as far back as the early 1100s; we've got family records going back to the 1300s, and then my great-grandmother took a trip to Ireland in the 90s to actually check headstones and got it a little further back.
:blink:
Wow. That is some pretty impressive genealogy-fu.
Are you descended from the O'Neils or something?
IIRC the cat is Scottish with a clan name, so that explains it.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 20, 2009, 11:17:00 AM
Quote from: Valmy on July 20, 2009, 11:16:01 AM
Quote from: PDH on July 20, 2009, 11:11:37 AM
Who was he, some insurance salesman from Sheboygan?
He was Hispanic...so I think he was a janitor or something.
RACIS! :mad:
Indeed. How dare Valmy limit his career to janitor. He might have been a fruit picker, or a theif too
:P
How would one go around & trace is ancestry in Europe?
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 20, 2009, 11:43:53 AM
How would one go around & trace is ancestry in Europe?
Depends where in Europe.
Britain is pretty good for this - you can go to individual Church parishes where births and deaths were recorded. Headstones will often also give names of children or parents, as well as years of birth and death.
Other parts of Europe are much worse for record-keeping.
Quote from: Caliga on July 20, 2009, 11:21:43 AM
IIRC the cat is Scottish with a clan name, so that explains it.
MacDonald/Gunn, yeah. Also, said great-grandmother was almost running the Pennsylvania Historical Society at the time anyway, so she had some ways and means to go about it.
@GF: Check municipal birth and death records, some grave markers will indicate other members of the household, and then you start messing with anecdotal evidence.
:yes: dunno about Clan McDonald, but Clan Gunn does indeed go WAY WAY back if I remember Scottish history correctly.
Quote from: Caliga on July 20, 2009, 11:50:12 AM
:yes: dunno about Clan McDonald, but Clan Gunn does indeed go WAY WAY back if I remember Scottish history correctly.
Yep. We've traced ourselves back to Norway, but the trail goes a little cold at that point- vikings weren't the world's best record-keepers. ;)
Up to Adam&Eve.
But there's some confusion from there to a more recent period, so with absolute certainty, only to the first of my family who emigrated to New France in the 17th century.
I'm probably also related, through my mother's side to Étienne Brulé (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89tienne_Br%C3%BBl%C3%A9), the first European to see the shores of the Great Lakes. The French and English texts differs on the way he died, the only thing sure is he was killed by Hurons who thought him to be a traitor.
Quote from: viper37 on July 20, 2009, 12:21:12 PM
Up to Adam&Eve.
But there's some confusion from there to a more recent period, so with absolute certainty, only to the first of my family who emigrated to New France in the 16th century.
I'm probably also related, through my mother's side to Étienne Brulé (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89tienne_Br%C3%BBl%C3%A9), the first European to see the shores of the Great Lakes. The French and English texts differs on the way he died, the only thing sure is he was killed by Hurons who thought him to be a traitor.
I bet you are descended from Lilith.
Quote from: Savonarola on July 20, 2009, 10:13:37 AM
I don't know anyone personally, but I read that some of the Irish nobility are able to trace their ancestry back to about 500 BC. Prior to the arrival of Christianity, though, their geneology would have been rememberd through oral history, so it's hard to know how accurate those ancestors are.
I find that a bit hard to believe given that even in the first millenium the Irish kings are legendary. Checking wikipedia (I know, I know, but its quick and generally isn't totally bollocks), the first confirmed one doesn't pop up until 846 AD.
I have trouble going back even into the 19th century. My family was(/is) mostly pretty poor and insignificant. I only have vague ideas of people who may have been my ancestors in the distant past via my rare family name and the history surrounding that- but it could well be that my ancestors are nothing to do with the minor nobles who originated the name and were just peasents originally from that village who decided to use it as a surname when they went off elsewhere.
I am interested in tracing it more properly but don't have the money, transport and access to do so. One thing I did discover quite recently from my grandad though which I was not aware of was that my great grandad changed the spelling of my name from a far cooler variant to its current form because he thought it sounded common.
Thinking about this- trying to look at it from a maths angle.
There used to be a few thousand people, now there are a few million people. Therefore it stands to reason that if a famous historical person had a bunch of kids and you know his line survived for a few generations before you begin to lose track of them all (i.e. they most likely have descendants in the modern day) then the chances are quite decent that they could well be your ancestor somehow.
You do after-all have 2 parents, 4 grandparents, 8 great grandparents, etc.....
Quote from: Tyr on July 20, 2009, 12:25:00 PM
You do after-all have 2 parents, 4 grandparents, 8 great grandparents, etc.....
See: Kentucky
Quote from: Tyr on July 20, 2009, 12:25:00 PM
Thinking about this- trying to look at it from a maths angle.
There used to be a few thousand people, now there are a few million people. Therefore it stands to reason that if a famous historical person had a bunch of kids and you know his line survived for a few generations before you begin to lose track of them all (i.e. they most likely have descendants in the modern day) then the chances are quite decent that they could well be your ancestor somehow.
You do after-all have 2 parents, 4 grandparents, 8 great grandparents, etc.....
:yes: I think that nearly everyone alive today is descended from *somebody* famous/noble/whatever, so people's claims about this sort of thing don't impress me, though I guess they can sometimes be mildly interesting.
Quote from: The Brain on July 20, 2009, 12:27:03 PM
Quote from: Tyr on July 20, 2009, 12:25:00 PM
You do after-all have 2 parents, 4 grandparents, 8 great grandparents, etc.....
See: Kentucky
:mad:
Quote from: Tyr on July 20, 2009, 12:25:00 PM
There used to be a few thousand people, now there are a few million people. Therefore it stands to reason that if a famous historical person had a bunch of kids and you know his line survived for a few generations before you begin to lose track of them all (i.e. they most likely have descendants in the modern day) then the chances are quite decent that they could well be your ancestor somehow.
True and the entire game of family histories is to discover how.
The knowledge that I am most definitely descended from Charlemagne somehow is not very interesting...if I know who all those people are that I am descended from him through...well then that is good stuff.
Quote from: Caliga on July 20, 2009, 12:28:37 PM
:yes: I think that nearly everyone alive today is descended from *somebody* famous/noble/whatever, so people's claims about this sort of thing don't impress me, though I guess they can sometimes be mildly interesting.
I think you are sort of missing the point :P
Heck even being the son or grandson of somebody famous doesn't make me any better (though I would have the privlege of knowing them and maybe inheriting some of their property).
The entire point is simply to make that journey through history and get to meet these people and know a bit about their stories and their lives. It is just an interesting and personal way to explore history not to show that you are the 1,657th in line to the Duke of Lancaster.
Didn't I say that I find it interesting in my reply? :P
Quote from: Caliga on July 20, 2009, 12:32:50 PM
Didn't I say that I find it interesting in my reply? :P
Didn't I say you are only sort of missing the point? ;)
Quote from: Tyr on July 20, 2009, 12:25:00 PM
Quote from: Savonarola on July 20, 2009, 10:13:37 AM
I don't know anyone personally, but I read that some of the Irish nobility are able to trace their ancestry back to about 500 BC. Prior to the arrival of Christianity, though, their geneology would have been rememberd through oral history, so it's hard to know how accurate those ancestors are.
I find that a bit hard to believe given that even in the first millenium the Irish kings are legendary.
I got it from Peter Berresford Ellis book "The Celts." I haven't tried to verify it through more research.
I wonder if Siegebreaker knows who his Russian ancestor is?
The mother of a friend of mine is from some very old Venetian-Maltese family. Apparently they can trace themselves back to the Paleologi.
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 20, 2009, 12:41:10 PM
The mother of a friend of mine is from some very old Venetian-Maltese family. Apparently they can trace themselves back to the Paleologi.
When Jaron restores the Byzantine Empire it will be nice to know who he can put on the throne of Constantine.
Quote from: Valmy on July 20, 2009, 12:31:51 PM
Quote from: Caliga on July 20, 2009, 12:28:37 PM
:yes: I think that nearly everyone alive today is descended from *somebody* famous/noble/whatever, so people's claims about this sort of thing don't impress me, though I guess they can sometimes be mildly interesting.
I think you are sort of missing the point :P
Heck even being the son or grandson of somebody famous doesn't make me any better (though I would have the privlege of knowing them and maybe inheriting some of their property).
The entire point is simply to make that journey through history and get to meet these people and know a bit about their stories and their lives. It is just an interesting and personal way to explore history not to show that you are the 1,657th in line to the Duke of Lancaster.
But what if your neighbor is 1,657th in line to be the Duke of York? He could be plotting against you right now!
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 20, 2009, 12:43:28 PM
But what if your neighbor is 1,657th in line to be the Duke of York? He could be plotting against you right now!
I would fight valiantly in this suburban renewal of the Wars of the Roses.
Good thing there are not any Tudor descendants around.
Quote from: Neil on July 20, 2009, 12:38:04 PM
I wonder if Siegebreaker knows who his Russian ancestor is?
Ivan the Great.
I wonder if DNA technology, when it becomes much cheaper, and privacy laws would be discarded is obsolete, we could create a 100% accurate genealogy tree for everyone. Just get everyone's DNA into one big database, and run the algorithm.
Quote from: DGuller on July 20, 2009, 01:28:01 PM
I wonder if DNA technology, when it becomes much cheaper, and privacy laws would be discarded is obsolete, we could create a 100% accurate genealogy tree for everyone. Just get everyone's DNA into one big database, and run the algorithm.
Oh, I think that would uncover an awful lot of things we don't want to know. :P
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on July 20, 2009, 01:36:19 PM
Oh, I think that would uncover an awful lot of things we don't want to know. :P
Oh I would be very interested in learning anything like that :shifty:
Quote from: DGuller on July 20, 2009, 01:28:01 PM
I wonder if DNA technology, when it becomes much cheaper, and privacy laws would be discarded is obsolete, we could create a 100% accurate genealogy tree for everyone. Just get everyone's DNA into one big database, and run the algorithm.
There's more to being human than knowing your exact family tree. What about music, paintings and philosophy?
Quote from: Queequeg on July 20, 2009, 11:13:36 AM
IIRC The oldest traceable, believeable geneologies belong to the descendants of Arasces, founder of the Parthian Empire in the early 3rd Century B.C. The Bagratunis and various other Georgian and Armenian families can trace themselves back to him.
That could be a winner, but wikipedia says this:
"Certain, generation by generation, history of the family begins only in the 8th century. The later Bagratids also claimed descent from King David of the Hebrew Bible. The claim is given no credence by modern scholarship, but was accepted in its day and lent prestige to the family. Their pretense, however, although without presenting a continuous line between them, was made through one Smbat, reputedly the ancestor of the Bagratids (Bagratuni) of the Caucasus States, "An unusual occurrence is recorded to have taken place during the 4th governor of Judah's (an unnamed Babylonian army-commander) administration, starting in 582 BC when King Hraceay (Hratchea) of Armenia, while visiting the Babylonian emperor, to whose court he had come to pay homage as one of his vassals, for reasons unknown but to himself asked for a certain Jewish captive prince, Sumbat, to return with him to Armenia. He did, and King Hraceay (Hratchea) of Armenia, gave him a pension and an estate at Sper."
As far back as I know is some guy in Essex who's grandson went to conneticut in the 16th century or so. He didn't seem particularly important though his nephew became mayor of London I think.
Quote from: Barrister on July 20, 2009, 11:47:02 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 20, 2009, 11:43:53 AM
How would one go around & trace is ancestry in Europe?
Depends where in Europe.
Britain is pretty good for this - you can go to individual Church parishes where births and deaths were recorded. Headstones will often also give names of children or parents, as well as years of birth and death.
Other parts of Europe are much worse for record-keeping.
Sweden and Finland have excellent record keeping since the 17th century, draft and taxation FTW :)
Quote from: Gambrinus on July 20, 2009, 06:19:12 PM
Quote from: Barrister on July 20, 2009, 11:47:02 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 20, 2009, 11:43:53 AM
How would one go around & trace is ancestry in Europe?
Depends where in Europe.
Britain is pretty good for this - you can go to individual Church parishes where births and deaths were recorded. Headstones will often also give names of children or parents, as well as years of birth and death.
Other parts of Europe are much worse for record-keeping.
Sweden and Finland have excellent record keeping since the 17th century, draft and taxation FTW :)
And then it gets pretty shitty.
Quote from: DGuller on July 20, 2009, 01:28:01 PM
I wonder if DNA technology, when it becomes much cheaper, and privacy laws would be discarded is obsolete, we could create a 100% accurate genealogy tree for everyone. Just get everyone's DNA into one big database, and run the algorithm.
I read an article (not online, so no link) about a year or so ago about some researchers who were trying to determine how far back you had to go to get to someone who is a common ancestor of us all. Their initial conclusions were pretty surprising--they felt that all living humans had a common ancestor who lived perhaps as recently as the 1400's, but certainly no longer ago than the 1st century A.D.
Quote from: Razgovory on July 20, 2009, 06:13:16 PM
As far back as I know is some guy in Essex who's grandson went to conneticut in the 16th century or so. He didn't seem particularly important though his nephew became mayor of London I think.
If he went to connecticut in the 16th century, that would make him very notable I would think.
Quote from: dps on July 20, 2009, 07:32:12 PM
Quote from: DGuller on July 20, 2009, 01:28:01 PM
I wonder if DNA technology, when it becomes much cheaper, and privacy laws would be discarded is obsolete, we could create a 100% accurate genealogy tree for everyone. Just get everyone's DNA into one big database, and run the algorithm.
I read an article (not online, so no link) about a year or so ago about some researchers who were trying to determine how far back you had to go to get to someone who is a common ancestor of us all. Their initial conclusions were pretty surprising--they felt that all living humans had a common ancestor who lived perhaps as recently as the 1400's, but certainly no longer ago than the 1st century A.D.
I have a tough time believing that, on the cop out basis of isolated groups like Aboriginal Australians.
Quote from: alfred russel on July 20, 2009, 07:39:38 PM
Quote from: dps on July 20, 2009, 07:32:12 PM
Quote from: DGuller on July 20, 2009, 01:28:01 PM
I wonder if DNA technology, when it becomes much cheaper, and privacy laws would be discarded is obsolete, we could create a 100% accurate genealogy tree for everyone. Just get everyone's DNA into one big database, and run the algorithm.
I read an article (not online, so no link) about a year or so ago about some researchers who were trying to determine how far back you had to go to get to someone who is a common ancestor of us all. Their initial conclusions were pretty surprising--they felt that all living humans had a common ancestor who lived perhaps as recently as the 1400's, but certainly no longer ago than the 1st century A.D.
I have a tough time believing that, on the cop out basis of isolated groups like Aboriginal Australians.
Yeah, that's kind of what I thought, too.
I am a direct male-line descendant of Alexius Comnenus :)
Family history begins in my family with arrival into the South in the 1600's. Everything else is strictly THE DEEP PAST, and such.
A lot of people descended from aristocracy (some that still are and some that aren't) can trace back to say Hastings or so but before that, it all gets thinner and harder to have more than one source. I wonder about in Asia. Some rich families are way old in Japan...
Quote from: Lettow77 on July 20, 2009, 08:28:43 PM
Family history begins in my family with arrival into the South in the 1600's. Everything else is strictly THE DEEP PAST, and such.
In Deepest Africa.
Quote from: BuddhaRhubarb on July 20, 2009, 09:29:00 PM
A lot of people descended from aristocracy (some that still are and some that aren't) can trace back to say Hastings or so but before that, it all gets thinner and harder to have more than one source. I wonder about in Asia. Some rich families are way old in Japan...
You remember all your ancestors to if you had to go out back and worship and placate them ever day.