Opened to move discussion from the Covid thread :P
Unhealthy.
Being obese is unhealthy in the short, medium and long term.
There is 70 years of medical data to prove it.
You can close the thread now. :sleep:
Though if food shortages continue, someone overweight or obese might well have a key advantage over some of us. ;)
Are you saying I'm fat?
Quote from: Zoupa on March 21, 2020, 04:44:54 PM
Being obese is unhealthy in the short, medium and long term.
There is 70 years of medical data to prove it.
You can close the thread now. :sleep:
katmai is older than I thought.
Does my bum look big in this?
Quote from: Zoupa on March 21, 2020, 04:44:54 PM
Being obese is unhealthy on average in the short, medium and long term.
Fixed your post.
:)
I think the distinction is whether obesity is unhealthy in itself, or whether it's a risk factor for developing things that are unhealthy. I think it's a risk factor.
That doesn't mean that I'm belittling the importance of not being obese. As a risk factor, it's a pretty damn big risk factor, and people who don't think they should eliminate it are delusional, but it is just a risk factor. Someone who's in the middle of playing a game of Russian Roulette is on average just as (physically) healthy as someone who doesn't play a Russian Roulette. It's just that their choice of gambling entertainment is a risk factor for developing a condition that has a very high fatality rate.
So, the reason I push back hard on the "obesity = unhealthy" line isn't because I'm fat. I've met a bunch of you now and I think you can vouch that I'm at a 'healthy' BMI.
But I've gone to a new doctor who said "Oh you're skinny, you're fine". It's not that fucking simple.
Yes - obesity can be caused by a number of things that are unhealthy. Mostly poor diet choices and poor exercise. But someone who is obese doesn't necessarily make poor diet choices and not exercise. Someone who is skinny doesn't necessarily mean they make good diet choices and do exercise.
What doctors, and society, should focus on is not weight itself. We should instead focus on healthy choices - proper diet and exercise. When people eat a proper diet and get plenty of exercise they will tend to not be obese - but it is not guaranteed.
There's also a lot of research that says once someone is obese diets just don't work for the huge majority of people. People almost invariably regain any weight lost.
What we need to do is not focus on weight itself, but on the underlying factors of being healthy. Which are correlated, but not inherently caused, by being overweight.
Quote from: Barrister on March 21, 2020, 10:46:49 PM
So, the reason I push back hard on the "obesity = unhealthy" line isn't because I'm fat. I've met a bunch of you now and I think you can vouch that I'm at a 'healthy' BMI.
But I've gone to a new doctor who said "Oh you're skinny, you're fine". It's not that fucking simple.
Yes - obesity can be caused by a number of things that are unhealthy. Mostly poor diet choices and poor exercise. But someone who is obese doesn't necessarily make poor diet choices and not exercise. Someone who is skinny doesn't necessarily mean they make good diet choices and do exercise.
What doctors, and society, should focus on is not weight itself. We should instead focus on healthy choices - proper diet and exercise. When people eat a proper diet and get plenty of exercise they will tend to not be obese - but it is not guaranteed.
There's also a lot of research that says once someone is obese diets just don't work for the huge majority of people. People almost invariably regain any weight lost.
What we need to do is not focus on weight itself, but on the underlying factors of being healthy. Which are correlated, but not inherently caused, by being overweight.
:yes:
I think the fat on the person itself causes issues, not to mention the extra strain put on the body due to additional bulk.
Quote from: Barrister on March 21, 2020, 10:46:49 PMWhat doctors, and society, should focus on is not weight itself. We should instead focus on healthy choices - proper diet and exercise. When people eat a proper diet and get plenty of exercise they will tend to not be obese - but it is not guaranteed.
The idea that someone obese has both proper diet and sufficient exercise for that diet is strange. Where does the excessive body fat come from then?
Quote from: Zanza on March 22, 2020, 12:14:49 AM
Quote from: Barrister on March 21, 2020, 10:46:49 PMWhat doctors, and society, should focus on is not weight itself. We should instead focus on healthy choices - proper diet and exercise. When people eat a proper diet and get plenty of exercise they will tend to not be obese - but it is not guaranteed.
The idea that someone obese has both proper diet and sufficient exercise for that diet is strange. Where does the excessive body fat come from then?
It would help if you guys would read a few articles on the topic before spouting off like you know shit.
Most often in those circumstances, it's swelling in the tissues makes weight loss difficult. For people like me, it's insulin resistance making weight loss particularly difficult.
I ate 1000 calories a day while walking/running/hiking 7-10 miles every day in order to drop 40 pounds over the course of six months. I've stopped exercising so much and upped my calories to 1200 and I've gained back 15 pounds since Europe. Regardless of all of that, I was still considered on the cusp of "obese". Feel free to ask the half dozen or so Languishites I've met in these last year if I appeared "unhealthy". Hint: most of then couldn't keep up with me, but I'm ther obese one.
Maybe I am missing something, but your experience seems to support my view as you state yourself that with reduced calory intake and higher exercise level you lost weight.
But as it is obviously a personal topic for you and I don't know you or your medical history (and haven't got a medical background to comprehend it in detail), I will just leave it at that. I wish everybody the best possible health and wellbeing. :hug:
Quote from: Zanza on March 22, 2020, 01:10:19 AM
Maybe I am missing something, but your experience seems to support my view as you state yourself that with reduced calory intake and higher exercise level you lost weight.
Yeah, Zanza. At a 2000 calorie deficit I was able to achieve moderate weight loss. And that's at 175 pounds. That was totally unsustainable for me. I can't imagine someone trying to do that while losing 100 pounds or more.
That's why it's not as simple as "don't eat so much and exercise more" for most people with insulin resistant diabetes. Sure, it can be done, but it's a hell of a lot harder for some people than others because physiologically their bodies don't want to or can't give up the fat.
But, and this needs to be stressed, at 150 pounds, which is still overweight and on the verge of obese, I am on more medications than three of my friends who each weigh well over 250 pounds. My joints hurt more, my body aches more, and I'm far more likely to die of COVID-19 than any one of them.
I'm not sick because I was fat. Not one of my medications changed with weight loss. I'm sick because my parents were sick, and my grandparents.
Quote from: DGuller on March 21, 2020, 11:53:20 PM
I think the fat on the person itself causes issues, not to mention the extra strain put on the body due to additional bulk.
I am not sure what this means. Someone with no fat at all is medically considered less healthy than a person with a normal BMI (which will include some fat). If fat is itself unhealthy (rather than excessive fat being unhealthy because of the extra strains on the cardiovascular or muscular/skeletal systems), why would lack of fat be considered less healthy?
In reference to the thread title, I don't think that obese Americans are less healthy than equally obese Canadians, Brits, or Magyars.
Quote from: grumbler on March 22, 2020, 10:10:47 AM
Quote from: DGuller on March 21, 2020, 11:53:20 PM
I think the fat on the person itself causes issues, not to mention the extra strain put on the body due to additional bulk.
I am not sure what this means. Someone with no fat at all is medically considered less healthy than a person with a normal BMI (which will include some fat). If fat is itself unhealthy (rather than excessive fat being unhealthy because of the extra strains on the cardiovascular or muscular/skeletal systems), why would lack of fat be considered less healthy?
In reference to the thread title, I don't think that obese Americans are less healthy than equally obese Canadians, Brits, or Magyars.
Something along these lines: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/05/050521124940.htm. The theory is that excess fat, especially around the waist, is not just correlated with but is the cause of the onset of diabetes.
The reality is that the definition of obese is meaningless. I'm a densely muscled person with big bones. At my healthiest weight, I'm still going to be "overweight" based on the BMI scale. Most medical organizations agree that it's worthless for individual analysis and is meant for analyzing large groups of people. It's an "in general" scale, not a "Meri" scale.
Yes, obesity can and regularly does cause medical difficulties. The problem comes in when doctors see a fat person and assume they're unhealthy or that they have all of the problems that come with obesity.
I nearly died because a doctor assumed I had IBS because I was carrying an extra 30 pounds. He literally said to me, "If you want the pain to stop, lose weight." Turns out, necrotic uteruses don't stop hurting because you diet. So yeah, this hits pretty close to home.
Quote from: DGuller link=topic=16039.msg1229689#msg1229689
Something along these lines: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/05/050521124940.htm. The theory is that excess fat, especially around the waist, is not just correlated with but is the cause of the onset of diabetes.
This is absolutely true. Apple-shaped people tend to be far more unhealthy than pear-shaped people. In fact, I think there are studies out the saying that pear-shaped people are regularly found to be some of the healthiest folks there are.
Just wondering if you all make the distinction when discussing overweight people.
By the way, that's why I'm unhealthier than my very obese friends. I'm apple-shaped. :(
Quote from: merithyn on March 22, 2020, 12:45:59 AM
Quote from: Zanza on March 22, 2020, 12:14:49 AM
Quote from: Barrister on March 21, 2020, 10:46:49 PMWhat doctors, and society, should focus on is not weight itself. We should instead focus on healthy choices - proper diet and exercise. When people eat a proper diet and get plenty of exercise they will tend to not be obese - but it is not guaranteed.
The idea that someone obese has both proper diet and sufficient exercise for that diet is strange. Where does the excessive body fat come from then?
It would help if you guys would read a few articles on the topic before spouting off like you know shit.
Most often in those circumstances, it's swelling in the tissues makes weight loss difficult. For people like me, it's insulin resistance making weight loss particularly difficult.
I ate 1000 calories a day while walking/running/hiking 7-10 miles every day in order to drop 40 pounds over the course of six months. I've stopped exercising so much and upped my calories to 1200 and I've gained back 15 pounds since Europe. Regardless of all of that, I was still considered on the cusp of "obese". Feel free to ask the half dozen or so Languishites I've met in these last year if I appeared "unhealthy". Hint: most of then couldn't keep up with me, but I'm ther obese one.
I can vouch for that. But I also don't think BMI works very well for someone as petite as you just as it is a terrible measure for someone like me.