QuotePolish general who fought with Washington may have been a woman
Researchers believe Casimir Pulaski's skeleton indicates the 18th-century cavalry officer may have been female or intersex
Researchers believe a famed Polish general who fought in the American Revolutionary war may have been a woman or possibly intersex.
A new Smithsonian Channel documentary examines the history of Casimir Pulaski, a Polish cavalryman who became a protege of George Washington.
Researchers began their work when a monument to the general in Savannah, Georgia, was set to be removed. Pulaski's bones were contained in a metal box under the monument, which was erected in 1854. Charles Merbs, a forensic anthropologist at Arizona State University who worked on the case, said that allowed researchers to exhume the skeleton for study.
"Basically I couldn't say anything about what I found until the final report came out," Merbs told ASU Now. He worked with Dr Karen Burns, a physical anthropologist at the University of Georgia, and other experts.
"Dr Burns said to me before I went in: 'Go in and don't come out screaming.' She said study it very carefully and thoroughly and then let's sit down and discuss it. I went in and immediately saw what she was talking about.
"The skeleton is about as female as can be."
Another team member, Virginia Hutton Estabrook, a Georgia Southern University professor of anthropology, told NBC News: "One of the ways that male and female skeletons are different is the pelvis. In females, the pelvic cavity has a more oval shape. It's less heart-shaped than in the male pelvis. Pulaski's looked very female."
The most immediate question was whether the skeleton was indeed Pulaski. Previous researchers had failed to identify the bones, lacking DNA for a match.
Estabrook said: "It is remarkable that the will to persist in this project continued more than a decade after it was declared by a team of experts that this was as far as it could possibly go."
This time, researchers were able to confirm the skeleton through the mitochondrial DNA of Pulaski's grandniece, known injuries and physical characteristics. The Smithsonian Institute funded the research.
Pulaski was raised as a man in an aristocratic Polish Catholic family, learning to fight and ride. He put those skills to the test against the invading Russians before leaving Poland in 1772 and finding his way to Paris. According to the Smithsonian documentary, the American delegation there sent him across the Atlantic with letters of recommendation from Benjamin Franklin.
Pulaski joined the American forces and on 11 September 1777 fought the British at Brandywine, south of Philadelphia, probably saving Washington from capture in a damaging defeat. The Pole went on to formalize the American cavalry, demanding better resources and training.
He was fatally wounded at the Siege of Savannah in October 1779, dying aboard ship days later.
Researchers said contemporary accounts of the general painted him as private and deeply driven, a fierce fighter and skilled horseman. He never married or had children.
"I don't think, at any time in his life, did he think he was a woman," Merbs said. "I think he just thought he was a man, and something was wrong."
As much as 2% of babies may be born intersex, according to a survey of medical literature from Brown University. That means the children could be born with characteristics – genital, chromosomal or hormonal – that put them outside the "platonic ideal that for each sex there is a single, universally correct developmental pathway and outcome".
Pulaski is considered a Polish American hero, honored each year at the Casimir Pulaski Day parade in New York City. The Pulaski Skyway in New Jersey is named for the general, as is the Fort Pulaski national monument in Georgia.
Speaking to NBC, the New York Pulaski Day parade president, Richard Zawisny, said he was "a little shocked" by the news Pulaski may have been a woman or intersex.
"But in this day and age," he added, "I don't think it will matter to most people."
The documentary about Pulaski is scheduled to be broadcast on Monday.
Yes, Pulaski was a woman.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/M/MV5BYjAyMDBjNjYtOTljYy00ZWU4LWEzNDAtNjg1NzI5NWE4OTJlXkEyXkFqcGdeQXVyMzQ2MDUxMTg@._V1_.jpg)
Starbuck is a man.
OR the people burying the body got lazy/confused and put the wrong body in.
Quote from: Tamas on April 09, 2019, 09:37:40 AM
OR the people burying the body got lazy/confused and put the wrong body in.
Somebody doesn't read the articles before commenting... :P
QuoteThis time, researchers were able to confirm the skeleton through the mitochondrial DNA of Pulaski's grandniece, known injuries and physical characteristics. The Smithsonian Institute funded the research.
I have previously read about a quarter of a quick news on this on another site, I felt fully Internet-qualified to draw conclusions. :P
What does intersex mean?
Quote from: The Brain on April 09, 2019, 12:03:05 PM
What does intersex mean?
Means you were born with both girl and boy parts.
Quote from: Valmy on April 09, 2019, 12:22:55 PM
Quote from: The Brain on April 09, 2019, 12:03:05 PM
What does intersex mean?
Means you were born with both girl and boy parts.
Why is the skeleton female in that case? Not rhetorical.
Quote from: Valmy on April 09, 2019, 12:22:55 PM
Quote from: The Brain on April 09, 2019, 12:03:05 PM
What does intersex mean?
Means you were born with both girl and boy parts.
Used to be called hermaphrodite, but the latter term is now just used scientifically for plants with both kinds of sex organs and is considered inappropriate when referring to people or animals.
Quote from: The Brain on April 09, 2019, 12:27:12 PM
Why is the skeleton female in that case? Not rhetorical.
I've not read that the skeleton is female, just that its pelvis had features only generally seen on females. Can skeletons themselves BE female or male?
Quote from: grumbler on April 09, 2019, 12:30:39 PM
Quote from: The Brain on April 09, 2019, 12:27:12 PM
Why is the skeleton female in that case? Not rhetorical.
I've not read that the skeleton is female, just that its pelvis had features only generally seen on females. Can skeletons themselves BE female or male?
L2R
Quote from: article"The skeleton is about as female as can be."
I thought that was just referring to the pelvis thing.
But I mean Pulaski clearly had testosterone going on in an era before hormone treatments so that points to intersex to me.
Quote from: Valmy on April 09, 2019, 12:22:55 PM
Quote from: The Brain on April 09, 2019, 12:03:05 PM
What does intersex mean?
Means you were born with both girl and boy parts.
So it's synonym of hermaphrodite. Thanks.
PS : only saw Grumbler's post after writing mine.
Quote from: grumbler on April 09, 2019, 12:28:43 PM
Used to be called hermaphrodite, but the latter term is now just used scientifically for plants with both kinds of sex organs and is considered inappropriate when referring to people or animals.
When did that happen? I didn't get the memo, not that I particularly care.
Quote from: The Brain on April 09, 2019, 12:03:05 PM
What does intersex mean?
I don't know what it means in this case. If a man is born with a leg muscles structure that is found in 60% of all women and only in 50% of all men, is that person intersex?
Quote from: grumbler on April 09, 2019, 12:30:39 PM
Quote from: The Brain on April 09, 2019, 12:27:12 PM
Why is the skeleton female in that case? Not rhetorical.
I've not read that the skeleton is female, just that its pelvis had features only generally seen on females. Can skeletons themselves BE female or male?
I bet he got a lot of unwelcome attention in the old battalion when he wore riding pants.
Quote from: dps on April 09, 2019, 12:40:10 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 09, 2019, 12:28:43 PM
Used to be called hermaphrodite, but the latter term is now just used scientifically for plants with both kinds of sex organs and is considered inappropriate when referring to people or animals.
When did that happen? I didn't get the memo, not that I particularly care.
Some point between 20 years ago and 10 years ago. It seemed like suddenly around 2007 I was hearing intersex.
Well, I read the Wiki article on it (as much as that's worth). Intersex seems to cover an enormous amount of ground, anything from having both made and female genitalia to having an abnormal hormonal balance. Anyone one of us could be intersex, show no physical signs, and only could only find out through genetic testing.
Quote from: grumbler on April 09, 2019, 12:30:39 PM
Can skeletons themselves BE female or male?
First one to make a pun about boners gets the Languish prize!
I always hoped that my sex fantasies involving heroic foreign cavalry officers weren't gay.
was he hot
Quote from: Caliga on April 09, 2019, 02:58:00 PM
was he hot
(https://media1.s-nbcnews.com/j/newscms/2019_14/2811821/190405-casimir-pulaski-al-1151_7301306afec17a5a014ae4205fff0155.fit-760w.jpg)
Quote from: alfred russel on April 09, 2019, 01:37:55 PM
I always hoped that my sex fantasies involving heroic foreign cavalry officers weren't gay.
I'm a foreign cavalry private. :)
We have a Pulaski county in Missouri. As it is in the Ozarks there are all sorts of congenital abnormalities.
Quote from: alfred russel on April 09, 2019, 01:37:55 PM
I always hoped that my sex fantasies involving heroic foreign cavalry officers weren't gay.
Better be gay than sorry.
Quote from: grumbler on April 09, 2019, 12:30:39 PM
Quote from: The Brain on April 09, 2019, 12:27:12 PM
Why is the skeleton female in that case? Not rhetorical.
I've not read that the skeleton is female, just that its pelvis had features only generally seen on females. Can skeletons themselves BE female or male?
According to Bones, yes.Also:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_skeleton#Sex_differences
Quote from: Razgovory on April 09, 2019, 04:14:36 PM
We have a Pulaski county in Missouri. As it is in the Ozarks there are all sorts of congenital abnormalities.
We have a Pulaski Skyway here in Jersey City. Some parts of it definitely weren't where they should've been, such as on-ramps and off-ramps. Getting onto the two-lane road with no shoulder that's congested with cars speeding at 60 MPH, from a stop sign on the left, is definitely an experience for those wanting to become more religious. At least it didn't have a passing lane in the middle that was shared by both directions of traffic, that was replaced by a median in the fifties.