A lot of interesting statistics in this article, but I thought this part at the end was the most eye opening.
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/feb/23/truth-world-built-for-men-car-crashes
Quote
How women are put at risk on the roads
Men are more likely than women to be involved in a car crash, which means they dominate the numbers of those seriously injured in them. But when a woman is involved in a car crash, she is 47% more likely to be seriously injured, and 71% more likely to be moderately injured, even when researchers control for factors such as height, weight, seatbelt usage, and crash intensity. She is also 17% more likely to die. And it's all to do with how the car is designed – and for whom.
Women tend to sit further forward when driving. This is because we are on average shorter. Our legs need to be closer to reach the pedals, and we need to sit more upright to see clearly over the dashboard. This is not, however, the "standard seating position", researchers have noted. Women are "out of position" drivers. And our wilful deviation from the norm means that we are at greater risk of internal injury on frontal collisions. The angle of our knees and hips as our shorter legs reach for the pedals also makes our legs more vulnerable. Essentially, we're doing it all wrong.
Cars have been designed using car crash-test dummies based on the 'average' male
Women are also at higher risk in rear-end collisions. We have less muscle on our necks and upper torso, which make us more vulnerable to whiplash (by up to three times), and car design has amplified this vulnerability. Swedish research has shown that modern seats are too firm to protect women against whiplash injuries: the seats throw women forward faster than men because the back of the seat doesn't give way for women's on average lighter bodies. The reason this has been allowed to happen is very simple: cars have been designed using car crash-test dummies based on the "average" male.
Crash-test dummies were first introduced in the 1950s, and for decades they were based around the 50th-percentile male. The most commonly used dummy is 1.77m tall and weighs 76kg (significantly taller and heavier than an average woman); the dummy also has male muscle-mass proportions and a male spinal column. In the early 1980s, researchers based at Michigan University argued for the inclusion of a 50th-percentile female in regulatory tests, but this advice was ignored by manufacturers and regulators. It wasn't until 2011 that the US started using a female crash-test dummy – although, as we'll see, just how "female" these dummies are is questionable.
In 2018, Astrid Linder, research director of traffic safety at the Swedish National Road and Transport Research Institute, presented a paper at the Road Safety on Five Continents Conference in South Korea, in which she ran through EU regulatory crash-test requirements. In no test is an anthropometrically correct female crash-test dummy required. The seatbelt test, one of the frontal-collision tests, and both lateral-collision tests all specify that a 50th-percentile male dummy should be used. There is one EU regulatory test that requires what is called a 5th-percentile female dummy, which is meant to represent the female population. Only 5% of women will be shorter than this dummy. But there are a number of data gaps. For a start, this dummy is only tested in the passenger seat, so we have no data at all for how a female driver would be affected – something of an issue you would think, given women's "out of position" driving style. And secondly, this female dummy is not really female. It is just a scaled-down male dummy.
Consumer tests can be slightly more stringent than regulatory ones. The 2011 introduction of female crash-test dummies in the US sent cars' star ratings plummeting. When I spoke to EuroNCAP, a European organisation that provides car safety ratings for consumers, they said that since 2015 they have used male and female dummies in both front-crash tests, and that they base their female dummies on female anthropometric data – with the caveat that this is "where data is available". EuroNCAP acknowledged that "sometimes" they do just use scaled-down male dummies. But women are not scaled-down men. We have different muscle mass distribution. We have lower bone density. There are differences in vertebrae spacing. Even our body sway is different. And these differences are all crucial when it comes to injury rates in car crashes.
The situation is even worse for pregnant women. Although a pregnant crash-test dummy was created back in 1996, testing with it is still not government-mandated either in the US or in the EU. In fact, even though car crashes are the No 1 cause of foetal death related to maternal trauma, we haven't yet developed a seatbelt that works for pregnant women. Research from 2004 suggests that pregnant women should use the standard seatbelt; but 62% of third-trimester pregnant women don't fit that design.
Linder has been working on what she says will be the first crash-test dummy to accurately represent female bodies. Currently, it's just a prototype, but she is calling on the EU to make testing on such dummies a legal requirement. In fact, Linder argues that this already is a legal requirement, technically speaking. Article 8 of the Treaty of the Functioning of the European Union reads, "In all its activities, the Union shall aim to eliminate inequalities, and to promote equality, between men and women." Clearly, women being 47% more likely to be seriously injured in a car crash is one hell of an inequality to overlook.
Designers may believe they are making products for everyone, but in reality they are mainly making them for men. It's time to start designing women in.
And let me tell you about a world built for short people
Or a world built for right handers,
Or the sane!
Quit your cryin'
Wonder if the sexists will adopt this research as proof wimmin shouldnt be doing these things.
Well, clearly the real solution would be custom-designed seats for every individual, but that's obviously not practical.
Quote from: dps on March 05, 2019, 07:42:04 AM
Well, clearly the real solution would be custom-designed seats for every individual, but that's obviously not practical.
I have often joked about bringing a failure to accommodate complaint against airlines for making it impossible for me to sit in anything other than business class. But the way the law is evolving in response to people getting more obese and the need for passenger carrying services to accommodate that girth I am thinking that I might have a good shot :D
Quote from: PDH on March 04, 2019, 09:20:50 PM
Or a world built for right handers,
:yes:
fuck yeah!
Quote from: Tyr on March 05, 2019, 04:48:58 AM
Wonder if the sexists will adopt this research as proof wimmin shouldnt be doing these things.
MEN DRIVE
Quote from: crazy canuck on March 04, 2019, 09:02:30 PM
And let me tell you about a world built for short people
and let me tell you about a world built for tall right handed people.
Quote from: Grey Fox on March 05, 2019, 12:11:34 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on March 04, 2019, 09:02:30 PM
And let me tell you about a world built for short people
and let me tell you about a world built for tall right handed people.
Oh god, I wish it were so.
This would be important information to know if I was designing cars.
QuoteWomen tend to sit further forward when driving. This is because we are on average shorter.
So why wouldn't this impact short people? Why just women? Short men do not have this problem?
Anyway cars suck ass and I hate them and driving. I will add this to my reason why: they are sexist woman killers.
Quote from: Valmy on March 05, 2019, 12:16:30 PM
So why wouldn't this impact short people? Why just women? Short men do not have this problem?
It certainly could, but stats on height in auto accidents isn't as available.
Quote from: frunk on March 05, 2019, 01:09:47 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 05, 2019, 12:16:30 PM
So why wouldn't this impact short people? Why just women? Short men do not have this problem?
It certainly could, but stats on height in auto accidents isn't as available.
The article also mentions that it's not only about height, but also the fact that test dummies are all "male" so safety measures are designed with men in mind.
Quote from: frunk on March 05, 2019, 01:09:47 PM
It certainly could, but stats on height in auto accidents isn't as available.
The researchers controlled for height, so it was available to them.
Quote from: The Larch on March 05, 2019, 01:14:57 PM
The article also mentions that it's not only about height, but also the fact that test dummies are all "male" so safety measures are designed with men in mind.
I thought the dummies were designed to be genderless :hmm:
Anyway how much different are men and women's bodies involved in something as big as a car crashes? This seems like remarkably huge incompetence on behalf of car makers to design for only tall male drivers when surely the majority of drivers are either short or not male. Call me skeptical all those engineers were that stupid.
But anyway, again I can hardly do anything about this. So any engineers here who work on car safety take this to heart.
Quote from: Valmy on March 05, 2019, 01:25:23 PM
Quote from: The Larch on March 05, 2019, 01:14:57 PM
The article also mentions that it's not only about height, but also the fact that test dummies are all "male" so safety measures are designed with men in mind.
I thought the dummies were designed to be genderless :hmm:
Anyway how much different are men and women's bodies involved in something as big as a car crashes? This seems like remarkably huge incompetence on behalf of car makers to design for only tall male drivers when surely the majority of drivers are either short or not male. Call me skeptical all those engineers were that stupid.
But anyway, again I can hardly do anything about this. So any engineers here who work on car safety take this to heart.
Going beyond what's required by regulations probably wasn't a priority, and never given as a design requirement to the engineers at the car makers. As for the regulators I don't know exactly why they've taken decades-long dumps on women.
Quote from: Valmy on March 05, 2019, 01:25:23 PM
Quote from: The Larch on March 05, 2019, 01:14:57 PM
The article also mentions that it's not only about height, but also the fact that test dummies are all "male" so safety measures are designed with men in mind.
I thought the dummies were designed to be genderless :hmm:
Anyway how much different are men and women's bodies involved in something as big as a car crashes? This seems like remarkably huge incompetence on behalf of car makers to design for only tall male drivers when surely the majority of drivers are either short or not male. Call me skeptical all those engineers were that stupid.
But anyway, again I can hardly do anything about this. So any engineers here who work on car safety take this to heart.
What the article says is that the dummy required for almost all safety tests represents an average male and has male features in the sense of having male bone density, weight distribution, muscle mass, etc, so I guess that in the same crash a woman is going to have worse injuries than a man.
Quote from: The Larch on March 05, 2019, 02:26:06 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 05, 2019, 01:25:23 PM
Quote from: The Larch on March 05, 2019, 01:14:57 PM
The article also mentions that it's not only about height, but also the fact that test dummies are all "male" so safety measures are designed with men in mind.
I thought the dummies were designed to be genderless :hmm:
Anyway how much different are men and women's bodies involved in something as big as a car crashes? This seems like remarkably huge incompetence on behalf of car makers to design for only tall male drivers when surely the majority of drivers are either short or not male. Call me skeptical all those engineers were that stupid.
But anyway, again I can hardly do anything about this. So any engineers here who work on car safety take this to heart.
What the article says is that the dummy required for almost all safety tests represents an average male and has male features in the sense of having male bone density, weight distribution, muscle mass, etc, so I guess that in the same crash a woman is going to have worse injuries than a man.
It's a well-documented historical failure of medical studies as well.
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2015/apr/30/fda-clinical-trials-gender-gap-epa-nih-institute-of-medicine-cardiovascular-disease
Quote from: Valmy on March 05, 2019, 01:25:23 PM...any engineers here who work on car safety...
Brain is right on the money. It costs a lot to comply with safety regulation. We do not go beyond what's necessary, because it would be financially crippling.
All of our efforts are geared to:
- Meet the required criteria.
- Painstakingly document how we have successfully met those.
Quote from: Iormlund on March 05, 2019, 05:10:04 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 05, 2019, 01:25:23 PM...any engineers here who work on car safety...
Brain is right on the money. It costs a lot to comply with safety regulation. We do not go beyond what's necessary, because it would be financially crippling.
All of our efforts are geared to:
- Meet the required criteria.
- Painstakingly document how we have successfully met those.
Yep, it is a textbook example of working to what is measured. And in heavily regulate industry there is a well defined list of measureless. I think that is necessary though.
Quote from: Grey Fox on March 05, 2019, 12:11:34 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on March 04, 2019, 09:02:30 PM
And let me tell you about a world built for short people
and let me tell you about a world built for tall right handed people.
Yup that gets so tiring. :lol: Just plain infuriating.
Quote from: 11B4V on March 05, 2019, 07:21:02 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on March 05, 2019, 12:11:34 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on March 04, 2019, 09:02:30 PM
And let me tell you about a world built for short people
and let me tell you about a world built for tall right handed people.
Yup that gets so tiring. :lol: Just plain infuriating.
Quit yer cryin
Quote from: Valmy on March 05, 2019, 12:16:30 PM
Anyway cars suck ass
:cry:
such insensitivity from city dwellers!
Quote from: viper37 on March 05, 2019, 11:16:45 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 05, 2019, 12:16:30 PM
Anyway cars suck ass
:cry:
such insensitivity from city dwellers!
Sitting in traffic two hours a day will do that :P
But I hate cars because they take up so much money and I am a terrible driver. Those factors strike me as independent of where I live.
Quote from: Valmy on March 06, 2019, 01:49:04 PM
Sitting in traffic two hours a day will do that :P
1hr to enter Quebec city and I nearly go mad... :P
Quote
But I hate cars because they take up so much money and I am a terrible driver. Those factors strike me as independent of where I live.
I have a mixed feeling about cars.
They are a necessity, they are a tool. I need them to meet clients, to meet family and friends, to get out of the city, and well, frankly, to go anywhere.
I like nice things. I don't have an eye for anything artistic, and whatever I buy needs to be functional first, aesthetic second.
With cars, if I can afford it, I like something that looks nice and combine good acceleration. I keep my car clean and in well order, in summer as well as in winter.
Since I have a nice car that looks well maintained and very clean, a lot of people assume I am a "car" person. I don't even know what type of engine is in the car I own right now, I have no idea how many speeds there are on this transmission. What I know is I have different tranmission mode with different fuel economy each and I mostly run on the "old man" setting ;) but sometimes, I use the "sport" or "sport plus" setting to get a little more "whooompf" when I hit the pedal ;)
But really, outside of the brand&model, I don't know much about my car. And while I know a Ferrari means "overpriced sport luxury car", I don't know what's under the hood. I don't know how to repair a car, and I couldn't change oil on my car without looking at it on the internet.
But I love my car.
In a ideal world, I'd be the only one of the few driving a car with unlimited speed limit on the highway :P
But I still don't know how to change a tire on this car :P
Quote from: viper37 on March 06, 2019, 08:18:20 PM
In a ideal world, I'd be the only one of the few driving a car with unlimited speed limit on the highway :P
The closest you can come to that is in an electric. You get to drive in the bus only lanes past all the traffic sitting at a standstill. You should act quickly to take advantage because eventually the number of electric cars on the road will hit a critical mass and that benefit will be taken away.
Quote from: crazy canuck on March 07, 2019, 01:15:15 PM
Quote from: viper37 on March 06, 2019, 08:18:20 PM
In a ideal world, I'd be the only one of the few driving a car with unlimited speed limit on the highway :P
The closest you can come to that is in an electric. You get to drive in the bus only lanes past all the traffic sitting at a standstill. You should act quickly to take advantage because eventually the number of electric cars on the road will hit a critical mass and that benefit will be taken away.
I can't afford a 100 000$ car. And I'm way too big for the small models.
Besides, traffic is an issue only when I get to Quebec city, and there are no reserved lanes available to electric cars where I need to go.
Quote from: viper37 on March 07, 2019, 01:50:51 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on March 07, 2019, 01:15:15 PM
Quote from: viper37 on March 06, 2019, 08:18:20 PM
In a ideal world, I'd be the only one of the few driving a car with unlimited speed limit on the highway :P
The closest you can come to that is in an electric. You get to drive in the bus only lanes past all the traffic sitting at a standstill. You should act quickly to take advantage because eventually the number of electric cars on the road will hit a critical mass and that benefit will be taken away.
I can't afford a 100 000$ car. And I'm way too big for the small models.
Besides, traffic is an issue only when I get to Quebec city, and there are no reserved lanes available to electric cars where I need to go.
I bought one that is not called Tesla and I am pretty sure I am significantly larger than you :P
Quote from: crazy canuck on March 07, 2019, 02:15:41 PM
Quote from: viper37 on March 07, 2019, 01:50:51 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on March 07, 2019, 01:15:15 PM
Quote from: viper37 on March 06, 2019, 08:18:20 PM
In a ideal world, I'd be the only one of the few driving a car with unlimited speed limit on the highway :P
The closest you can come to that is in an electric. You get to drive in the bus only lanes past all the traffic sitting at a standstill. You should act quickly to take advantage because eventually the number of electric cars on the road will hit a critical mass and that benefit will be taken away.
I can't afford a 100 000$ car. And I'm way too big for the small models.
Besides, traffic is an issue only when I get to Quebec city, and there are no reserved lanes available to electric cars where I need to go.
I bought one that is not called Tesla and I am pretty sure I am significantly larger than you :P
What do you have CC?
gigantism?
Quote from: Barrister on March 07, 2019, 02:40:40 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on March 07, 2019, 02:15:41 PM
Quote from: viper37 on March 07, 2019, 01:50:51 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on March 07, 2019, 01:15:15 PM
Quote from: viper37 on March 06, 2019, 08:18:20 PM
In a ideal world, I'd be the only one of the few driving a car with unlimited speed limit on the highway :P
The closest you can come to that is in an electric. You get to drive in the bus only lanes past all the traffic sitting at a standstill. You should act quickly to take advantage because eventually the number of electric cars on the road will hit a critical mass and that benefit will be taken away.
I can't afford a 100 000$ car. And I'm way too big for the small models.
Besides, traffic is an issue only when I get to Quebec city, and there are no reserved lanes available to electric cars where I need to go.
I bought one that is not called Tesla and I am pretty sure I am significantly larger than you :P
What do you have CC?
If it's the Chevy Bolt, I'd be interested to know how well extra tall folk fare in one. :)
Viper owns a Ferrari? Time for Mono to update his list.
Quote from: Oexmelin on March 07, 2019, 02:48:24 PM
gigantism?
:lol:
@BB I have a KIA Soul. It is by far the most roomy in its class.
@Tronitrus
I can't fit in the Bolt, Leaf or the mid size Tesla. The BMW i3 is also very tight.
I've got a Kia Soul over here too(though a diesel)...probably the roomiest small car for tall folk I've seen. Though I've sat in a Tesla Model S...actually very roomy I thought. But I'm only 6' 6" :P
But you may have gotten an electric Soul a tad too early? The newer one is supposed to really ramp up the range limit.
Quote from: crazy canuck on March 07, 2019, 04:58:58 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on March 07, 2019, 02:48:24 PM
gigantism?
:lol:
@BB I have a KIA Soul. It is by far the most roomy in its class.
@Tronitrus
I can't fit in the Bolt, Leaf or the mid size Tesla. The BMW i3 is also very tight.
:huh:
According to https://www.kia.ca/soulev-prelaunch-2020 The Kia Soul EV is "coming soon - Spring 2019". How'd you get one?
Quote from: Barrister on March 07, 2019, 05:16:05 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on March 07, 2019, 04:58:58 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on March 07, 2019, 02:48:24 PM
gigantism?
:lol:
@BB I have a KIA Soul. It is by far the most roomy in its class.
@Tronitrus
I can't fit in the Bolt, Leaf or the mid size Tesla. The BMW i3 is also very tight.
:huh:
According to https://www.kia.ca/soulev-prelaunch-2020 The Kia Soul EV is "coming soon - Spring 2019". How'd you get one?
That is just the newer model year. They've had a Soul EV for the last few years...but its range is rather crappy up until now.
Quote from: Barrister on March 07, 2019, 05:16:05 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on March 07, 2019, 04:58:58 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on March 07, 2019, 02:48:24 PM
gigantism?
:lol:
@BB I have a KIA Soul. It is by far the most roomy in its class.
@Tronitrus
I can't fit in the Bolt, Leaf or the mid size Tesla. The BMW i3 is also very tight.
:huh:
According to https://www.kia.ca/soulev-prelaunch-2020 The Kia Soul EV is "coming soon - Spring 2019". How'd you get one?
A new model is coming this year. I got mine 2 years ago when the first model was produced. The new model has better range.
Quote from: The Larch on March 05, 2019, 02:26:06 PM
What the article says is that the dummy required for almost all safety tests represents an average male and has male features in the sense of having male bone density, weight distribution, muscle mass, etc, so I guess that in the same crash a woman is going to have worse injuries than a man.
This is one of the main reasons that I have a lot of doubts about the article. My understanding is that test crash dummies don't truly have human bone density, etc.
Quote from: crazy canuck on March 07, 2019, 04:58:58 PM
@BB I have a KIA Soul. It is by far the most roomy in its class.
it's a truck, not a car :P