Do you guys think this will come to anything serious?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/tensions-high-in-himalayas-as-china-demands-india-withdrawal/2017/07/05/b80dea10-6163-11e7-80a2-8c226031ac3f_story.html?utm_term=.409bc13481c9
QuoteAsia & Pacific
Tensions high in Himalayas as China demands India withdrawal
Xi Jinping, China's president, arrives in Berlin, Germany, July 5. (Krisztian Bocsi/Bloomberg)
By Gerry Shih and Muneeza Naqvi | AP July 5 at 6:54 AM
BEIJING — China on Wednesday insisted India withdraw its troops from a disputed plateau in the Himalayan mountains before talks can take place to settle the most protracted standoff in recent years between the nuclear-armed neighbors who fought a brief but bloody frontier war in the area 55 years ago.
India must pull back its troops "as soon as possible" as a precondition to demonstrate "sincerity," foreign ministry spokesman Geng Shuang told reporters at a daily news briefing.
His comments came after weeks of saber-rattling in New Delhi and Beijing, as officials from both sides talk up a potential clash even bloodier than their 1962 war that left thousands dead.
The confrontation could spill over into the G-20 summit in Germany later this week where Chinese President Xi Jinping and his Indian counterpart Narendra Modi are expected to meet at a gathering of leaders from five emerging economies on the sidelines of the main event in Hamburg.
The month-long standoff — and unconfirmed reports of troop buildups on both sides of the border — has also underscored the swiftly deteriorating relations between the two Asian rivals.
China claims about 90,000 square kilometers (35,000 square miles) in the Indian province of Arunachal Pradesh, referred to informally by some Chinese as "Southern Tibet." India says China is occupying 38,000 square kilometers (15,000 square miles) of its territory on the Aksai Chin plateau.
[Tibetans in anguish as Chinese mines pollute their sacred grasslands]
More than a dozen rounds of talks have failed to make substantial progress in the dispute, although there have been relatively few confrontations in recent years.
China appeared frustrated that India refused to sign on this year to its continent-wide "One Belt, One Road" infrastructure initiative, which includes a component in Pakistan and a part of Kashmir that is contested by India.
China also complained bitterly when Tibet's spiritual leader, the Dalai Lama, who lives in exile in India, visited Arunachal Pradesh in April, something India said amounted to interference in its internal affairs. Yet India also formally joined the Russian and Chinese-dominated Shanghai Cooperation Organization this year alongside Pakistan.
The latest dispute flared up in June after Chinese teams began building a road on territory also claimed by Bhutan. Although China and Bhutan have spent decades negotiating the precise border without serious incident, the tiny Himalayan kingdom sought help this time from its longtime ally, India, which sent troops onto the plateau to obstruct Chinese workers.
China then retaliated by closing a mountain pass that Indian pilgrims use to reach Mount Kailash, a sacred Hindu and Buddhist site in Tibet.
[China's plan to 'liberate' a cradle of Tibetan culture]
Since then, videos have emerged of Indian and Chinese soldiers blocking each other with their arms and physically jostling without coming to blows. After Chinese officials said India should learn "historic lessons" from its humiliating defeat in the 1962 war, Indian Defense Minister Arun Jaitley shot back by saying that "India in 2017 is different from India in 1962," in a reference to its improved military strength.
In an editorial headlined "India would bear brunt of new border clash," China's outspoken nationalist tabloid Global Times ramped up the rhetoric Wednesday by saying that China was in no mood to make concessions.
"The Indian military can choose to return to its territory with dignity, or be kicked out of the area by Chinese soldiers," said the paper, which is published by the ruling Communist Party flagship People's Daily.
Meanwhile, the more mainstream China Daily suggested that some in the Indian military were seeking payback for the 1962 war.
"Perhaps its defeat in that war was too humiliating for some in the Indian military and that is why they are talking belligerently this time," it said.
Although the Doklam Plateau is not part of Indian territory, India's Ministry of Externals Affairs has called Chinese actions in the area a move with "serious security implications for India."
Former Indian ambassador to Beijing, Matrim Silva, said that Doklam is a strategically important area that can provide access to the vital Siliguri corridor —also known as the "Chicken Neck" — that connects India's northeast with the rest of the country. But he said he was "baffled" as to why the dispute flared up now.
"The fact that this has lasted so long is not a good sign," he said. "India and China's relationship has been on a downward trend recently and this in fact is yet another example."
___
Of course tensions are going to be high at that altitude.
QuoteFormer Indian ambassador to Beijing, Matrim Silva
:XD:
Quote from: The Larch on July 05, 2017, 09:57:04 AM
QuoteFormer Indian ambassador to Beijing, Matrim Silva
:XD:
Omg, so we were all having lunch with an ambassador?
:lol:
:lol:
Quote from: The Larch on July 05, 2017, 09:57:04 AM
QuoteFormer Indian ambassador to Beijing, Matrim Silva
:XD:
I'm glad someone noticed. :lol:
FAKE NEWS.
What is the real ambassadors name, or did you make up the entire quote?
Quote from: Eddie Teach on July 05, 2017, 11:58:02 PM
FAKE NEWS.
What is the real ambassadors name, or did you make up the entire quote?
You could always click on the link and find out. C.V. Ranganathan
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 06, 2017, 12:36:11 AM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on July 05, 2017, 11:58:02 PM
FAKE NEWS.
What is the real ambassadors name, or did you make up the entire quote?
You could always click on the link and find out. C.V. Ranganathan
Groan
Matrim :lol:
I feel like you had to have done that on purpose, Timmy.
Quote from: Caliga on July 06, 2017, 06:56:10 AM
Matrim :lol:
I feel like you had to have done that on purpose, Timmy.
Of course I did! I read that quote and immediately thought of him, so I changed it to check if any one actually read the article.
CdM failed the test, but the Larch passed with flying colors.
He meant misspelling Martim, not changing the ambassador's name.
Quote from: Eddie Teach on July 07, 2017, 12:24:06 AM
He meant misspelling Martim, not changing the ambassador's name.
Wait, really? Until you made this post I was 100% sure that was his name.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 06, 2017, 11:01:16 PM
CdM failed the test, but the Larch passed with flying colors.
Didn't read the article, went straight to the "high tensions at that altitude" joke.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 07, 2017, 01:04:12 AM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on July 07, 2017, 12:24:06 AM
He meant misspelling Martim, not changing the ambassador's name.
Wait, really? Until you made this post I was 100% sure that was his name.
FFS
Quote from: The Brain on July 07, 2017, 01:24:24 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 07, 2017, 01:04:12 AM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on July 07, 2017, 12:24:06 AM
He meant misspelling Martim, not changing the ambassador's name.
Wait, really? Until you made this post I was 100% sure that was his name.
FFS
It's classic Jmimy Olsno
:lmfao: :lmfao: :lmfao: :lmfao:
Tensions increase as the standoff escalates
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-40653053
I have to give the edge to the Chinese. The Indians haven't learned anything since Wounded Knee.
Doesn't look like either side is prepared to climb down.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 11, 2017, 07:54:38 PM
I have to give the edge to the Chinese. The Indians haven't learned anything since Wounded Knee.
I laughed
Can't the Indians just cut China off from fuel shipments from the middle east? Hard to see Trump objecting.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on August 12, 2017, 08:51:15 AM
Can't the Indians just cut China off from fuel shipments from the middle east? Hard to see Trump objecting.
Too bad for China they don't share a land border with any oil producing countries.
I'm sure it'll be trivial for India to stop the shipment of oil on supertankers via international waters flying, say, American flags.
So yeah, I guess they can Tim.
Quote from: DGuller on August 11, 2017, 07:58:56 PM
Doesn't look like either side is prepared to climb down.
The Indians just want to curry favor with the international community.
Quote from: Jacob on August 12, 2017, 05:24:17 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on August 12, 2017, 08:51:15 AM
Can't the Indians just cut China off from fuel shipments from the middle east? Hard to see Trump objecting.
Too bad for China they don't share a land border with any oil producing countries.
I'm sure it'll be trivial for India to stop the shipment of oil on supertankers via international waters flying, say, American flags.
So yeah, I guess they can Tim.
They get 80% of their oil from the middle east IIRC. Russia can't replace that al at once.
I thought all these tankers bore flags of African countries that have no regulations.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 12, 2017, 05:44:40 PM
Quote from: DGuller on August 11, 2017, 07:58:56 PM
Doesn't look like either side is prepared to climb down.
The Indians just want to curry favor with the international community.
Ugh
Quote from: jimmy olsen on August 12, 2017, 05:57:20 PM
They get 80% of their oil from the middle east IIRC. Russia can't replace that al at once.
I thought all these tankers bore flags of African countries that have no regulations.
Sure.
Do you imagine India will attack African registered ships owned by multinational corporations in international waters?
Let's for argument's sake say "yes".
What would that do to the price China is willing to pay for oil? I reckon it has the potential to increase the margins enough that it would cover the cost of using American registered ships.
There'll be no choking off of international shipping without American buy-in, imo. So the answer to your original question is likely "no" (and that is, of course, assuming that the Indian navy outclasses the Chinese one or even has the capability to stop shipping on the high seas).
Quote from: Jacob on August 12, 2017, 07:24:49 PM
There'll be no choking off of international shipping without American buy-in, imo. So the answer to your original question is likely "no" (and that is, of course, assuming that the Indian navy outclasses the Chinese one or even has the capability to stop shipping on the high seas).
I'll certainly buy the proposition that the Indian Navy outclasses the Chinese Navy.
I'd say at a guess that the Indian Navy has
some ability to interdict shipping in the Indian Ocean. I don't think that the could totally cut off all shipping, but OTOH, supertankers are pretty big objects, and it would probably be a lot easier to interdict them than it would be to interdict general shipping.
You'll be sari if you keep it up.
Ok now surely China and India are not going to go to war over a bit of the Himalayas.
Quote from: dps on August 12, 2017, 09:37:25 PM
I'll certainly buy the proposition that the Indian Navy outclasses the Chinese Navy.
The Hindustani Times seem to disagree: http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/indian-navy-outgunned-1-to-4-as-chinese-steps-up-presence-in-indian-ocean/story-MIbR4PoOSThQmtIuzRJiVN.html
... though obviously for this sort of thing it's more than just a numbers game, since there are other considerations (like China's desire to throw around their weight in the South China Sea).
QuoteI'd say at a guess that the Indian Navy has some ability to interdict shipping in the Indian Ocean. I don't think that the could totally cut off all shipping, but OTOH, supertankers are pretty big objects, and it would probably be a lot easier to interdict them than it would be to interdict general shipping.
They probably could yeah... though the implications of going after neutral third country shipping are fairly significant, even if they don't directly sink American/ EU/ Russian registered ships. I reckon it's going to be a little more complicated than "ok, we will just cut off their oil supply then" unless the two nations are entering total war footing with little regard to the rest of the world... which seems far fetched to me over contested land in the Himalayas.
Going after international shipping sounds like a route to rogue status. But in a situation where the die is caste...
Quote from: The Brain on August 13, 2017, 01:30:21 AM
Going after international shipping sounds like a route to rogue status. But in a situation where the die is caste...
...nothing is Untouchable.
Quote from: Jacob on August 12, 2017, 11:36:08 PM
Quote from: dps on August 12, 2017, 09:37:25 PM
I'll certainly buy the proposition that the Indian Navy outclasses the Chinese Navy.
The Hindustani Times seem to disagree: http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/indian-navy-outgunned-1-to-4-as-chinese-steps-up-presence-in-indian-ocean/story-MIbR4PoOSThQmtIuzRJiVN.html
... though obviously for this sort of thing it's more than just a numbers game, since there are other considerations (like China's desire to throw around their weight in the South China Sea).
QuoteI'd say at a guess that the Indian Navy has some ability to interdict shipping in the Indian Ocean. I don't think that the could totally cut off all shipping, but OTOH, supertankers are pretty big objects, and it would probably be a lot easier to interdict them than it would be to interdict general shipping.
They probably could yeah... though the implications of going after neutral third country shipping are fairly significant, even if they don't directly sink American/ EU/ Russian registered ships. I reckon it's going to be a little more complicated than "ok, we will just cut off their oil supply then" unless the two nations are entering total war footing with little regard to the rest of the world... which seems far fetched to me over contested land in the Himalayas.
Yeah, I would think it would be a foolish move on the part of India, because it would diplomatically isolate them.
Politically and diplomatically, a direct blockade of China's ports would be more palatable, but I'm reasonably sure that's beyond the abilities of the Indian Navy unless the Chinese armed forces are even more of a paper tiger than I think it is.
Chinese fleet is bigger and more capable, but I'm skeptical they can project force into the Indian Ocean in the face of attacks from local Indian naval and land based forces. Operating thousands of miles away from home in hostile territory is not a trivial endeavor.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on August 13, 2017, 06:54:43 AM
Chinese fleet is bigger and more capable, but I'm skeptical they can project force into the Indian Ocean in the face of attacks from local Indian naval and land based forces. Operating thousands of miles away from home in hostile territory is not a trivial endeavor.
On what do you base the assertion that the Chinese Navy is more capable than the Indian Navy?
Quote from: dps on August 13, 2017, 11:09:27 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on August 13, 2017, 06:54:43 AM
Chinese fleet is bigger and more capable, but I'm skeptical they can project force into the Indian Ocean in the face of attacks from local Indian naval and land based forces. Operating thousands of miles away from home in hostile territory is not a trivial endeavor.
On what do you base the assertion that the Chinese Navy is more capable than the Indian Navy?
I believe they have a larger number of modern ships.
Anyways, they pelted each other with rocks recently.
http://www.atimes.com/article/military-incursions-escalate-china-india-standoff/
Quote
After clash in Ladakh, India braces for more 'shallow intrusions' by PLA
Rajat Pandit | TNN | Updated: Aug 17, 2017, 12:49 PM IST
NEW DELHI: The Indian forces are bracing for more "shallow intrusions" or "needling probes"+ from China's People's Liberation Army (PLA) in vulnerable spots along the Line of Actual Control (LAC), according to sources in the Indian defence establishment.
This assessment comes even as the two forces held a border personnel meeting (BPM) in eastern Ladakh on Wednesday to calm down tempers, a day after Indian and Chinese soldiers pelted stones at each other+ near Pangong Lake.
The PLA is unlikely to try anything near the already restive Sikkim-Bhutan-Sikkim tri-junction+ because Indian troops are militarily much better-placed there and can easily threaten China's narrow Chumbi Valley in the region, if required, the according to India's assessment. "But the PLA could try something in eastern Ladakh, as was seen on Tuesday, or eastern Arunachal Pradesh or Lipulekh Pass and Barahoti in the central sector (Himachal-Uttarakhand)," one of the sources said.
The Indian defence establishment, however, is sticking to its belief that China will not risk a full-fledged war despite its major build-up of troops, artillery, air defence, armoured and other units in the southern part of the Tibet Military District that falls under the Western Theatre Command (WTC) of the PLA, after the Doklam confrontation erupted on the eastern front in mid-June.
The stepped-up "needling" in some areas along the 4,057-km LAC, which stretches from Ladakh to Arunachal, will be part of the PLA's game-plan to ratchet up pressure on India to unilaterally withdraw from the face-off site in the Bhutanese territory of Doklam before winter sets in November-December. "India is ready for mutual troop withdrawal to defuse the stand-off. But China is not. So, our troops are prepared for the long haul," said the source.
But the channels of communication are also being kept open, with some sweeteners thrown in for good measure. Though the PLA declined the invite for the August 15 celebrations at different BPM points on the LAC, Indian soldiers did hand over "sweets" to their Chinese counterparts at multiple locations, including Doklam, on Tuesday.
On Wednesday, at the longish BPM held at Spanggur Gap in Chushul sector of Ladakh in the afternoon, official sources said the two armies led by brigadier-rank officers discussed the "incident" at the Pangong Tso (Tso means lake) as well as the need "to strengthen the existing mechanism to maintain peace and tranquility" to avoid confrontations.
Usually, the troops pull back after some jostling and banner drills in the disputed "Finger-5 to Finger-8" (mountainous spurs) area on the northern bank of the 134-km long Pangong Tso, two-thirds of which is controlled by China as it extends from Tibet to India.
But on Wednesday, they hurled stones and used iron rods to injure each other for the first time in recent years, in a clear indicator of the tense situation prevailing along the entire LAC. Pangong Tso, which is located at an altitude of 13,900-feet across the Changla Pass, and other areas like Chumar, Trig Heights and Depsang in eastern Ladakh have emerged as major flashpoints over the recent years.
Indian troops till some years ago were at a huge disadvantage in the Pangong Lake, saddled as they were with old patrol boats. There were even a few instances of faster and sturdier Chinese boats ramming into Indian ones to disable them. But after the Indian troops inducted 17 new high-speed interceptor boats, each of which can carry 16 to 18 soldiers, they have been conducting strong reconnaissance and area domination patrols in the region over the last few years.
China also made a racist propaganda video
http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/xinhua-video-mocks-india-in-bizarre-chinese-propaganda-on-doklam-standoff-1738602
Both sides are building up. First article is mosly about China, second is about India.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wsj.com/amp/articles/china-india-move-tens-of-thousands-of-troops-to-the-border-in-largest-buildup-in-decades-11625218201
Quote
China and India have deployed tens of thousands of troops, placed advanced military equipment and built new infrastructure at their disputed border in recent months, as the rivals escalate their long-running standoff.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-06-27/india-shifts-50-000-troops-to-china-border-in-historic-defense-shift
QuoteIndia Shifts 50,000 Troops to China Border in Historic Move
With even more soldiers patrolling both sides of the disputed areas, any miscalculation could turn deadly.
This is the most irrational conflict zone in the world. The stupidity of humans really has no limit.
It says interesting things about the state of China's leadership today.
The conflict is completely irrational for both sides but it is particularly damaging to China.
The core of China's national security is keeping SLOCs open and preventing a cold war-style containment alliance forming against them. India is one of the most critical chess pieces in both those games. One would think that Chinese diplomacy would place the highest priority on keeping India as friendly as possible; or at least blocking alignment with the US.
To escalate this insanity from the Chinese side means one or both of two things: (1) the individuals in charge of China's foreign policy right now are utterly clueless, or (2) the leadership is so paranoid about domestic dissent that they will happily engage in obviously counterproductive policy overseas to keep up nationalist sentiment and avoid being seen to back down any anything, even something so trivial in substance.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 05, 2021, 03:39:41 PM
It says interesting things about the state of China's leadership today.
The conflict is completely irrational for both sides but it is particularly damaging to China.
The core of China's national security is keeping SLOCs open and preventing a cold war-style containment alliance forming against them. India is one of the most critical chess pieces in both those games. One would think that Chinese diplomacy would place the highest priority on keeping India as friendly as possible; or at least blocking alignment with the US.
To escalate this insanity from the Chinese side means one or both of two things: (1) the individuals in charge of China's foreign policy right now are utterly clueless, or (2) the leadership is so paranoid about domestic dissent that they will happily engage in obviously counterproductive policy overseas to keep up nationalist sentiment and avoid being seen to back down any anything, even something so trivial in substance.
There's definitely a very strong vibe of "I'm an insecure bully so I'll be as pushy as possible to ensure I get my way" vibe coming from China these days.
Is it personality driven? There are elements in Xi's background that suggests it could be about his insecurities... or maybe there are others in his clique who have a similar attitude.
Alternately, it could be an attempt to distract from internal weaknesses (which much be worrying indeed), or to gain the upper hand in internal CCP conflicts (which is similarly damaging).
Whatever the driver, the fear of perceived weakness seems very powerful with the current Chinese regime, and I reckon it's pretty counter productive.
New, insecure-feeling authoritarians, rattling sabres abroad to solidify their position at home is not a new story...and seldom one that turns out well for anybody. Especially large, powerful states with territorial ambitions outside their current control.
Taiwan has a lot to be worried about, and Russia is probably happy that nuclear weapons are a thing, lest everything east of Lake Baikal might have been lost already.
Quote from: Tonitrus on July 05, 2021, 05:31:44 PM
New, insecure-feeling authoritarians, rattling sabres abroad to solidify their position at home is not a new story...and seldom one that turns out well for anybody. Especially large, powerful states with territorial ambitions outside their current control.
Taiwan has a lot to be worried about, and Russia is probably happy that nuclear weapons are a thing, lest everything east of Lake Baikal might have been lost already.
Saw an interesting interview with Ai Wei Wei, he said Taiwan is the next move and there would be an extreme confrontation within the next 5 years.
He also likened the CCP to a dynasty and said China has had dynasties that lasted for 200-300 years.
I mean, it won't be surprising if the PRC moves on Taiwan, but it's a high risk move.
On one hand, if they successfully conquer and hold Taiwan they will achieve a historic goal and prove they can face down the US, the West and the democratic nations.
On the other hand, if they get their nose bloodied, severely damage their economy, and fail to achieve their objectives they might lose the required level of legitimacy in the eyes of the Chinese people and lose power altogether.
And while the US' will to go all in for Taiwan is potentially in question, especially in the face of a potential fait accomplit by China if they get in there fast enough, the Chinese Communist Party doesn't have a particularly impressive war fighting record.
It would almost certainly be better for the West if the PRiCks moved on Taiwan in the next five years, before they can integrate all the new toys their ArmyNavy has been getting recently into a tested and effective doctrine. Given that the leadership of the ArmyNavy is chosen for its political acumen rather than its professionalism, and the very limited retention of the enlisted cadre, that will take a while.
I was thinking the same thing. I think China will be a belligerent and growing force for a long time. It would be better for the Western world if they came early, so to speak, before they had time to aim carefully.
Quote from: grumbler on July 05, 2021, 07:13:05 PM
It would almost certainly be better for the West if the PRiCks moved on Taiwan in the next five years, before they can integrate all the new toys their ArmyNavy has been getting recently into a tested and effective doctrine. Given that the leadership of the ArmyNavy is chosen for its political acumen rather than its professionalism, and the very limited retention of the enlisted cadre, that will take a while.
Yeah, from a "this is a strategic problem" perspective, if there's to be a war involving China sooner is probably better than later because - as you say - they'll be less well prepared. So, if I was playing a grand strategy game with this set-up I'd look to provoke a conflict sooner rather than later.
On the other hand, from a "I live in this world" perspective (not to mention a "I have family in China" perspective), I'd rather postpone any wars involving China as much as possible.
Quote from: Jacob on July 05, 2021, 07:01:03 PM
And while the US' will to go all in for Taiwan is potentially in question
Question is what does "all in" mean in this context.
The US could make a very significant contribution to Taiwan's defense even if it limits itself to a conventional air/naval commitment. It plays to what still is a relative US strength. That would put the onus on the PRC to decide whether to escalate further -e.g. strikes on US bases hosted by other nations.
Quote from: Jacob on July 05, 2021, 07:47:00 PM
Yeah, from a "this is a strategic problem" perspective, if there's to be a war involving China sooner is probably better than later because - as you say - they'll be less well prepared. So, if I was playing a grand strategy game with this set-up I'd look to provoke a conflict sooner rather than later.
On the other hand, from a "I live in this world" perspective (not to mention a "I have family in China" perspective), I'd rather postpone any wars involving China as much as possible.
Absolutely, the hope should be "let's postpone a war with China until the thugs of the CCP are overthrown." That's why I noted that it would "almost" be better "for the West" if Ai Wei Wei was correct.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YtKgy_Ji94
That doesn't look like a fun terrain to conduct skirmishes in/on.
Within 5 years also means the possibility of a Trump 'leading' the response to confrontation with China over Taiwan. :hmm:
Quote from: Monoriu on July 06, 2021, 06:01:43 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YtKgy_Ji94 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YtKgy_Ji94)
So long as they just fight with sticks and stones it shouldn't be too bad.
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 06, 2021, 06:03:21 AM
That doesn't look like a fun terrain to conduct skirmishes in/on.
As long as the teams are reasonably balanced and there are no cheaters I'm sure it's fine.
Quote from: Razgovory on July 06, 2021, 08:08:40 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on July 06, 2021, 06:01:43 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YtKgy_Ji94 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YtKgy_Ji94)
So long as they just fight with sticks and stones it shouldn't be too bad.
Sample of an actual weapon used in the conflict.
(https://i.imgur.com/mbVJmx9.jpg)
What's the point of modern armies engaging in melee?
Quote from: Eddie Teach on July 06, 2021, 10:19:54 AM
What's the point of modern armies engaging in melee?
My guess: limiting the scale of escalation and consequence while fulfilling the need for nationalist chest-thumping.
Quote from: Eddie Teach on July 06, 2021, 10:19:54 AM
What's the point of modern armies engaging in melee?
Spell combat is too easy to interrupt.
I rather like the idea of modern armies fighting each other with clubs in the middle of a mountainous wasteland. Not nearly as much collateral damage. They won't need camouflage either, so armies can go back to wearing ridiculous costumes. After the battle they can say "Good War" to their foes and have their moms take them out for pizza.
Modi calls the Dalai Lama to wish him a happy birthday. Obviously a bit of a symbolic finger in China's eye.
QuoteIndian PM Modi greets Dalai Lama on birthday in rare phone call
The Indian prime minister has publicly wished the Dalai Lama a happy 86th birthday, demonstratively disregarding China. Beijing sees Tibet's spiritual leader as a dangerous separatist.
Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi on Tuesday announced on Twitter that he had called Tibet's spiritual leader, the Dalai Lama, to congratulate him on his birthday.
"Spoke on phone to His Holiness the @DalaiLama to convey greetings on his 86th birthday. We wish him a long and healthy life," Modi said in his tweet.
Modi's call comes as relations are at a low ebb with neighboring China, which generally disapproves of any show of support for the Dalai Lama, whom it considers a subversive "splittist" working for Tibet's independence.
Indian leaders have generally deferred to China, with Modi's government, for example, in 2019 asking Tibetans in India not to hold a rally to mark the anniversary of a failed uprising in 1959 against Chinese rule.
...
https://www.dw.com/en/indian-pm-modi-greets-dalai-lama-on-birthday-in-rare-phone-call/a-58177885
The Chinese already have a system in place to pick who he'll reincarnate as. :hmm: If the Indians really want to fuck with the Chinese they'll sponsor a counter-Dalai Lama on their side of the border.
Quote from: Legbiter on July 06, 2021, 01:31:23 PM
The Chinese already have a system in place to pick who he'll reincarnate as. :hmm: If the Indians really want to fuck with the Chinese they'll sponsor a counter-Dalai Lama on their side of the border.
I would absolutely do that, were I the Indians. But then again, I'm pretty anti-PRC-regime these days.
Quote from: Jacob on July 06, 2021, 01:34:26 PM
Quote from: Legbiter on July 06, 2021, 01:31:23 PM
The Chinese already have a system in place to pick who he'll reincarnate as. :hmm: If the Indians really want to fuck with the Chinese they'll sponsor a counter-Dalai Lama on their side of the border.
I would absolutely do that, were I the Indians. But then again, I'm pretty anti-PRC-regime these days.
:)
Anyone with half a brain should be these days.
Quote from: Jacob on July 06, 2021, 01:34:26 PM
Quote from: Legbiter on July 06, 2021, 01:31:23 PM
The Chinese already have a system in place to pick who he'll reincarnate as. :hmm: If the Indians really want to fuck with the Chinese they'll sponsor a counter-Dalai Lama on their side of the border.
I would absolutely do that, were I the Indians. But then again, I'm pretty anti-PRC-regime these days.
PRC of course will do whatever the fuck they want. As seen with the Catholic Church in China they have no shame in having an avowedly atheist government appointing religious leaders.
But India? Doesn't the Dalai Lama have a system in place to determine his successor? Shouldn't India just support that process?
Quote from: Barrister on July 06, 2021, 01:40:44 PMBut India? Doesn't the Dalai Lama have a system in place to determine his successor? Shouldn't India just support that process?
He could decide that his next reincarnation will be born far away in India. He could even decide that he'll be the final reincarnation for a while. :hmm:
But the Chinese have their own database on potential lamas as well as their own pliable monks. The Chinese have had a deeply vested interest in the reincarnation ever since the Manchu absorbed Tibet into their domains in 1720.
Quote from: Barrister on July 06, 2021, 01:40:44 PM
PRC of course will do whatever the fuck they want. As seen with the Catholic Church in China they have no shame in having an avowedly atheist government appointing religious leaders.
But India? Doesn't the Dalai Lama have a system in place to determine his successor? Shouldn't India just support that process?
The Dalai Lama isn't appointed. He is born (reincarnated from the last DL) and merely recognized when he comes to exhibit the signs that show that he is the Dalai Lama, years after the end of his "previous incarnation." The reason the Chinese kidnapped (and probably murdered) the 11th Panchen Lama is because the Panchen Lama is one of the key figures that is supposed to recognize the reincarnated Dalai Lama (as the Dalai Lama recognizes the Panchen Lama when he is reincarnated). The Chinese appointed a stooge as the new 11th Panchen Lama, but no one outside of the CCP and Mono believe them.
Quote from: grumbler on July 06, 2021, 02:05:36 PM
Quote from: Barrister on July 06, 2021, 01:40:44 PM
PRC of course will do whatever the fuck they want. As seen with the Catholic Church in China they have no shame in having an avowedly atheist government appointing religious leaders.
But India? Doesn't the Dalai Lama have a system in place to determine his successor? Shouldn't India just support that process?
The Dalai Lama isn't appointed. He is born (reincarnated from the last DL) and merely recognized when he comes to exhibit the signs that show that he is the Dalai Lama, years after the end of his "previous incarnation." The reason the Chinese kidnapped (and probably murdered) the 11th Panchen Lama is because the Panchen Lama is one of the key figures that is supposed to recognize the reincarnated Dalai Lama (as the Dalai Lama recognizes the Panchen Lama when he is reincarnated). The Chinese appointed a stooge as the new 11th Panchen Lama, but no one outside of the CCP and Mono believe them.
All of which is why I used the word "determine", and not "appoint". :contract:
Quote from: Barrister on July 06, 2021, 02:20:14 PM
Quote from: grumbler on July 06, 2021, 02:05:36 PM
Quote from: Barrister on July 06, 2021, 01:40:44 PM
PRC of course will do whatever the fuck they want. As seen with the Catholic Church in China they have no shame in having an avowedly atheist government appointing religious leaders.
But India? Doesn't the Dalai Lama have a system in place to determine his successor? Shouldn't India just support that process?
The Dalai Lama isn't appointed. He is born (reincarnated from the last DL) and merely recognized when he comes to exhibit the signs that show that he is the Dalai Lama, years after the end of his "previous incarnation." The reason the Chinese kidnapped (and probably murdered) the 11th Panchen Lama is because the Panchen Lama is one of the key figures that is supposed to recognize the reincarnated Dalai Lama (as the Dalai Lama recognizes the Panchen Lama when he is reincarnated). The Chinese appointed a stooge as the new 11th Panchen Lama, but no one outside of the CCP and Mono believe them.
All of which is why I used the word "determine", and not "appoint". :contract:
The process does not "determine" the next Dalai Lama, it
identifies him (or her). :contract:
The Dalai Lama is a bodhisattva who can chose when and in whom he/she is reincarnated.
Don't they have to be newborns? :unsure:
Quote from: Jacob on July 06, 2021, 01:23:23 PM
Modi calls the Dalai Lama to wish him a happy birthday. Obviously a bit of a symbolic finger in China's eye.
Multiple BJP ministers and state Chief Ministers also sending congratulations on Twitter - all with a very similar message :lol:
There are lineages of Tibetan buddhism already with a conflict already between a PRC endorsed and non-PRC endorsed leaders. I can't see how it can be avoided after the death of the Dalai Lama.
More importantly, who will Hollywood stars be photographed with while in awe of profound platitudes?
Quote from: Legbiter on July 06, 2021, 01:31:23 PM
The Chinese already have a system in place to pick who he'll reincarnate as. :hmm: If the Indians really want to fuck with the Chinese they'll sponsor a counter-Dalai Lama on their side of the border.
I propose we borrow from the Catholic tradition, and dub such a person the "antiDalai Lama". :sleep:
Lorenzo Lamas is available. He's got star power, martial arts moves, and if you mess with him he won't rest until he gets payback.
Quote from: Tonitrus on July 06, 2021, 04:17:06 PM
Quote from: Legbiter on July 06, 2021, 01:31:23 PM
The Chinese already have a system in place to pick who he'll reincarnate as. :hmm: If the Indians really want to fuck with the Chinese they'll sponsor a counter-Dalai Lama on their side of the border.
I propose we borrow from the Catholic tradition, and dub such a person the "antiDalai Lama". :sleep:
Only if it ends with a third one, to terminate the controversy.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 06, 2021, 05:02:17 PM
Lorenzo Lamas is available. He's got star power, martial arts moves, and if you mess with him he won't rest until he gets payback.
This is not the '90s anymore, unfortunately. He has been doing soap operas and real TV shows. :(
PS: I was going to suggest Seagal, given his creed and earlier deeds but given his current political orientation and obesity, I'm afraid this is impossible as well.
Quote from: Eddie Teach on July 06, 2021, 10:19:54 AM
What's the point of modern armies engaging in melee?
The two sides had an agreement not to use firearms.
We should really encourage more countries to do that.
Quote from: Monoriu on July 06, 2021, 08:29:37 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on July 06, 2021, 10:19:54 AM
What's the point of modern armies engaging in melee?
The two sides had an agreement not to use firearms.
Did they agree to leave the area if they lost the brawl?
Quote from: Eddie Teach on July 06, 2021, 09:11:05 PM
Did they agree to leave the area if they lost the brawl?
Nope :contract:
And it was more than a brawl. A lot more. People died.
So, like I said, there's no point.
Quote from: Valmy on July 05, 2021, 01:31:10 PM
This is the most irrational conflict zone in the world. The stupidity of humans really has no limit.
Aren't the Himalayas the source for all of Indian subcontinent's and Southern China's water? Climate change is coming and so are the water wars.
Quote from: Eddie Teach on July 06, 2021, 09:11:05 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on July 06, 2021, 08:29:37 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on July 06, 2021, 10:19:54 AM
What's the point of modern armies engaging in melee?
The two sides had an agreement not to use firearms.
Did they agree to leave the area if they lost the brawl?
Actual footage of the start of the brawl: https://youtu.be/20myPs_-E1I?list=RDFPCGR9_GdhA&t=281
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 07, 2021, 06:39:53 AM
Quote from: Valmy on July 05, 2021, 01:31:10 PM
This is the most irrational conflict zone in the world. The stupidity of humans really has no limit.
Aren't the Himalayas the source for all of Indian subcontinent's and Southern China's water? Climate change is coming and so are the water wars.
yep, and the Chinese are damming off everything....