Quote from: Malthus on May 17, 2017, 08:06:22 AM
Quote from: The EconomistCountries where kids born into poor families can't go to school are inherently unjust.
Very poor countries are inherently unjust? OK The Economist, they should just magic stuff into existence.
Quote from: The Brain on May 17, 2017, 02:35:41 PM
Very poor countries are inherently unjust? OK The Economist, they should just magic stuff into existence.
The lack of an easy fix does not make injustice less unjust.
Quote from: Jacob on May 17, 2017, 02:37:31 PM
Quote from: The Brain on May 17, 2017, 02:35:41 PM
Very poor countries are inherently unjust? OK The Economist, they should just magic stuff into existence.
The lack of an easy fix does not make injustice less unjust.
Yours is an extreme position. A person who is physically unable to help is typically not considered to be acting unjustly.
Quote from: Jacob on May 17, 2017, 02:37:31 PM
Quote from: The Brain on May 17, 2017, 02:35:41 PM
Very poor countries are inherently unjust? OK The Economist, they should just magic stuff into existence.
The lack of an easy fix does not make injustice less unjust.
lol, you really trying that with this bunch?
Quote from: The Brain on May 17, 2017, 02:35:41 PM
Quote from: Malthus on May 17, 2017, 08:06:22 AM
Quote from: The EconomistCountries where kids born into poor families can't go to school are inherently unjust.
Very poor countries are inherently unjust? OK The Economist, they should just magic stuff into existence.
The article is written in the context of Western nations able to afford such things; the issue is whether that *choice* is a good one or not - with a focus on America.
Yeah, can't fault Somalia for lacking infrastructure or universal schooling - as it lacks everything.
Despite the best efforts of Trump and his ilk, America isn't quite Somalia
yet. :lol:
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 17, 2017, 02:50:26 PM
lol, you really trying that with this bunch?
Not trying anything, just stating my position.
Quote from: The Brain on May 17, 2017, 02:40:29 PM
A person who is physically unable to help is typically not considered to be acting unjustly.
There's a difference between "physically unable" and "difficult". Poor countries failing to deliver education to their poorer citizens typically falls under "difficult" in my view as it's down to the allocation of limited resources.
Quote from: The Brain on May 17, 2017, 02:35:41 PM
Quote from: Malthus on May 17, 2017, 08:06:22 AM
Quote from: The EconomistCountries where kids born into poor families can't go to school are inherently unjust.
Very poor countries are inherently unjust? OK The Economist, they should just magic stuff into existence.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61BQg%2BahauL._UX385_.jpg)
Quote from: Jacob on May 17, 2017, 02:57:24 PM
Quote from: The Brain on May 17, 2017, 02:40:29 PM
A person who is physically unable to help is typically not considered to be acting unjustly.
There's a difference between "physically unable" and "difficult". Poor countries failing to deliver education to their poorer citizens typically falls under "difficult" in my view as it's down to the allocation of limited resources.
When it comes to Somalia, they don't have a government that functions outside of Mogadishu, warlords and sepratists run almost all of the countryside. I think it is verging on "physically unable" at this point.
I also think one would be hard pressed to describe Somalia as a 'just' society whatever the standard of that might be.
Quote from: Barrister on May 17, 2017, 03:03:19 PM
When it comes to Somalia, they don't have a government that functions outside of Mogadishu, warlords and sepratists run almost all of the countryside. I think it is verging on "physically unable" at this point.
And I would argue that the war waged by warlords, separatists et. al. are perpetrating an injustice on the poor people who are denied education. Would you disagree?
Quote from: The Brain on May 17, 2017, 04:31:00 PM
It was reasonably obvious that "very poor" in my post was about their ability to provide education to everybody. Why else would I mention it (rhetorical)?
If they are so poor that they cannot provide any education whatsoever, and are unable to generate revenue and prioritize education spending, then perhaps the injustice does not originate with the government. That does not make it any less of an injustice that the poor are not receiving an education, it just means that it is not the government's fault.
That said, in practical terms I am not sure what poor countries are unable to provide education entirely due to poverty rather than unwillingness to prioritize taxation and education policy to provide it. Do you have any examples in mind?
QuoteI expect poorshaming from some posters, but not necessarily from you.
I am not poor-shaming.
Quote from: Jacob on May 17, 2017, 05:13:30 PM
I am not poor-shaming.
Of course not. You're just saying that they act unjustly by being poor.
Quote from: The Brain on May 18, 2017, 10:08:06 AM
Quote from: Jacob on May 17, 2017, 05:13:30 PM
I am not poor-shaming.
Of course not. You're just saying that they act unjustly by being poor.
You don't need vast wealth to educate your populace. South Korea did so while barely being able to feed its population.
But usually poverty indicates there are other more systemic problems besides just a lack of funds that is keeping things like free education taking place. Like a lack of effective government or a perpetual quasi-civil war.
Quote from: Valmy on May 18, 2017, 10:20:46 AM
Quote from: The Brain on May 18, 2017, 10:08:06 AM
Quote from: Jacob on May 17, 2017, 05:13:30 PM
I am not poor-shaming.
Of course not. You're just saying that they act unjustly by being poor.
You don't need vast wealth to educate your populace. South Korea did so while barely being able to feed its population.
But usually poverty indicates there are other more systemic problems besides just a lack of funds that is keeping things like free education taking place. Like a lack of effective government or a perpetual quasi-civil war.
Well yes, like Venezuela which should be the Norway of South America, and instead it makes Zimbabwe look like a well-run country.
But I am afraid the original "unjust" definition was meant to be taken as the world being unjust to those poor places for letting them be poor. Which is nonsense.
Quote from: The Brain on May 18, 2017, 10:08:06 AM
Quote from: Jacob on May 17, 2017, 05:13:30 PM
I am not poor-shaming.
Of course not. You're just saying that they act unjustly by being poor.
No. Those are your words and your reasoning, used to support your "fuck poor people" political stance masquerading as concern for the poor.
I am saying it is unjust that people are not educated. I am not saying that the government is necessarily acting unjustly. It may be that other factors prevent them from providing that education (f. ex. war, lack of ability to enact an agenda due to control of foreign interests, a weak mandate et. al.). Where that is the case, it is still unjust that poor people are being denied education but the blame lies on those responsible for the war or for undermining the ability of the government to act.
Conversely, where a poor country fails to provide adequate education but simultaneously diverts significant portions of the national revenue to the pockets of a small oligarchical elite then yes - the government of that poor country is acting unjustly. That is not "poor shaming" that is "corrupt oligarchy shaming".
I split this off the US politics thread as it's off topic.
Quote from: Tamas on May 18, 2017, 10:37:35 AMBut I am afraid the original "unjust" definition was meant to be taken as the world being unjust to those poor places for letting them be poor. Which is nonsense.
How so?
To steal from Christopher Hitches' diatribe on Mother Theresa...in this case, is Brain defending the poor, or is he defending poverty? :P
Quote from: Jacob on May 18, 2017, 11:56:05 AM
Quote from: The Brain on May 18, 2017, 10:08:06 AM
Quote from: Jacob on May 17, 2017, 05:13:30 PM
I am not poor-shaming.
Of course not. You're just saying that they act unjustly by being poor.
No. Those are your words and your reasoning, used to support your "fuck poor people" political stance masquerading as concern for the poor.
I am saying it is unjust that people are not educated. I am not saying that the government is necessarily acting unjustly. It may be that other factors prevent them from providing that education (f. ex. war, lack of ability to enact an agenda due to control of foreign interests, a weak mandate et. al.). Where that is the case, it is still unjust that poor people are being denied education but the blame lies on those responsible for the war or for undermining the ability of the government to act.
Conversely, where a poor country fails to provide adequate education but simultaneously diverts significant portions of the national revenue to the pockets of a small oligarchical elite then yes - the government of that poor country is acting unjustly. That is not "poor shaming" that is "corrupt oligarchy shaming".
You would make a great 30 Years War officer: "I know these wily poors! They always have wealth squirreled away somewhere! We may just need to interrogate more enhancedly!"
Quote from: The Brain on May 18, 2017, 03:29:50 PM
You would make a great 30 Years War officer: "I know these wily poors! They always have wealth squirreled away somewhere! We may just need to interrogate more enhancedly!"
:rolleyes:
Quote from: Jacob on May 18, 2017, 12:18:57 PM
Quote from: Tamas on May 18, 2017, 10:37:35 AMBut I am afraid the original "unjust" definition was meant to be taken as the world being unjust to those poor places for letting them be poor. Which is nonsense.
How so?
In almost all cases governments who do not work on making their own poor countries better or work on improving conditions, they rule with the support or at the very least quiet consent of the majority of their people. Rulers of 3rd world shitholes get away with things a 100 times worse than would see European streets aflame in popular rage.
That is not the worlds fault.
Quote from: Tamas on May 18, 2017, 04:01:29 PM
In almost all cases governments who do not work on making their own poor countries better or work on improving conditions, they rule with the support or at the very least quiet consent of the majority of their people. Rulers of 3rd world shitholes get away with things a 100 times worse than would see European streets aflame in popular rage.
That is not the worlds fault.
If the Brain sees your argument he'll say you're poor-shaming.