I eagerly await our new Tomato overlords.
http://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2017/1/27/14414538/supermarket-tomatoes-taste-fix-science
QuoteTomato flavor is broken. Can it be fixed?
Scientists say they can use molecular breeding to get us much better tomatoes.
Updated by Mark Schatzker Feb 20, 2017, 10:51am EST
Cardboard. Memory foam. Wet cotton balls. There are many ways to describe the flavor of the modern-day supermarket tomato. It may be the only fruit in America to qualify as a biological tragedy.
Back in 1989, a molecular biologist named Harry Klee was hired by Monsanto to create a genetically modified tomato with better flavor. After years of research and $10 million, Klee managed to develop one — but it tasted only marginally superior to what was available in supermarkets. Determined to keep at it, in 1995 he joined the Horticultural Sciences Department at the University of Florida, where he has spent the past 22 years studying what makes tomatoes taste good.
Last month, Klee and a team of collaborators, including scientists from China, Spain, and Israel, published a paper in Science analyzing flavor-associated chemicals in 398 modern, heirloom, and wild tomatoes. The results are pretty intriguing. I spoke to Klee to find out exactly what went wrong with tomatoes and why, and whether the damage can be undone.
Mark Schatzker
The first line of your Science paper says, "Modern commercial tomato varieties are substantially less flavorful than heirloom varieties." Is there now scientific proof that supermarket tomatoes really do taste terrible?
Harry Klee
Since 2010, we've run about 40 taste panels, consisting of around 100 people each, to rate 160 different varieties of tomatoes. Supermarket tomatoes, for the most part, struggle to get out of the bottom third of the ratings.
Mark Schatzker
What's wrong with them?
Harry Klee
Roughly half of the flavor compounds are significantly worse in modern varieties. They're also much lower in sugar. We found this by running a complete chemical profile of every tomato variety and asking, what's in the tomatoes people like and what's in the ones people don't like? Then we took it a step further and used software that goes through the entire tomato genome and checks every nucleotide to see if it's correlated with a particular flavor compound. When we took all the modern varieties and grouped them together and compared their flavor compounds with the old varieties, what we found the modern varieties are way lower.
Mark Schatzker
How did this happen?
Harry Klee
For decades, tomato breeders have selected traits related to performance — yield, disease resistance, how well tomatoes ship, how well they last on a shelf. Those are the things they can measure and do measure, and they've done very well at it. But they never select for flavor. And if you don't select for flavor, you are selecting against it.
In the case of sugar, it's a little bit different. We found there is a definite trade-off between sugar content and fruit size. And the tomatoes you find in the store these days are gigantic. But this actually goes way back. The pre-Columbian natives who domesticated tomatoes were themselves selecting for bigger fruit that has less sugar.
Mark Schatzker
Wouldn't the tomato breeders have noticed their new tomato varieties tasted bland?
Harry Klee
Probably not. In a single generation, they would have only lost one flavor compound, so the difference would have been extremely subtle. Over several generations, however, the effect is huge. The best analogy I can come up with is an orchestra. If you pull out one instrument, you don't miss it unless you're really discerning. But if you slowly remove 12 members of the orchestra, at that point it sounds different.
Mark Schatzker
Could you use the gene-editing technology CRISPR to plug the good flavor genes back into modern tomatoes?
Harry Klee
CRISPR is very powerful technology, but at this point you can only knock things down or out. We don't know how to make more of things with CRISPR. You can't use it to put in a genetic trait that's not there.
Mark Schatzker
So what is the blueprint to fix tomatoes?
Harry Klee
What we need to do is get the flavor from heirlooms into modern tomatoes but leave behind everything else we don't want — the thin skin, the mushy texture, the low yield, and the poor disease resistance. If you do that through classical breeding, it will take many generations. Instead, we're using something called molecular breeding.
Basically, you cross an heirloom and a modern tomato, grow it to the seedling stage, and then screen it for the genetic markers you want. It might take a million seedlings, but eventually you will find the rare cross that inherited the one chromosome with the gene you want from the heirloom but not the other 11. With molecular breeding you can do in three generations what it would take a traditional breeder to do in seven. That's a year and a half versus three years.
Mark Schatzker
So in a year and a half, will all tomatoes be delicious?
Harry Klee
No, because it's not one gene we're after. It's a minimum of five. And many of them are found in different heirloom parents. So five genes will require about three years of molecular breeding.
But we will still run into a problem with sugar. Tomato growers know consumers prefer sweeter tomatoes. They also know that sweeter means smaller fruit size. And they don't want to grow smaller tomatoes, because that pushes their labor costs up.
So until we can convince consumers to pay more money for smaller tomatoes, they're just not going to taste like that Brandywine you picked in your backyard. That said, I think we can have a major impact by focusing on flavor compounds. I think you would eat that tomato and say, "This is noticeably better."
Mark Schatzker
If scientists studied other fruits and vegetables for flavor loss the way you have with tomatoes, do you think we would see similar blandness in modern varieties?
Harry Klee
I think most people recognize that the gigantic strawberries you get in the store are not nearly as good as the tiny ones you pick in the wild. Any crop that has been heavily bred and not screened for flavor or nutrition is going to suffer. The blueberries grown in Florida are gigantic, and they're also tasteless.
Mark Schatzker
So is there, similarly, the potential to make other members of the produce aisle taste better?
Harry Klee
Absolutely. We call it "consumer-assisted selection." It means you start with the consumer rather than end with the consumer, and I think that's the real breakthrough here. It's common sense, but hardly anyone does it. And it drives me crazy.
Mark Schatzker
Do you think we will see that happen?
Harry Klee
I do. But it might not happen here. Right now, China is probably spending 10 times what we are on basic plant research. We had to go to China to find a collaborator to sequence all these tomato genomes. You know who the No. 1 producer of tomatoes in the world is? China. They're going to be ahead of us. It's inevitable.
About time someone does something about this important issue. The taste of different tomatoes vary dramatically. A lot of them just plain suck.
Oh noes,
we need to close the strategical tomato gap with China :ph34r:
I wondered about those gigantic strawberries they sell you covered in chocolate and whatever. They have no flavor at all. Same thing with grapes--the ones you buy in the produce aisle are huge and taste like water. The ones they make wine from are tiny and packed with bitter goodness and sugars if picked late.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on February 21, 2017, 04:32:35 AM
I wondered about those gigantic strawberries they sell you covered in chocolate and whatever. They have no flavor at all. Same thing with grapes--the ones you buy in the produce aisle are huge and taste like water. The ones they make wine from are tiny and packed with bitter goodness and sugars if picked late.
Yep, there is a big difference in taste between fruits grown to maximize yield and those that maximize taste. Strawberries are an excellent example. I am not sure how growers achieve those huge uniformly shaped ones but I agree they have no taste. A small one grown in my yard picked after ripening on the vine has an intense flavour.
With strawberries I find that the more local they are the better, also a good strawberry will have a strong (and very pleasant) aroma.
I used to buy fruit in a "fruit outlet" of sorts. They bought the fruit that was refused by major distributors because it didn't look good enough: not big enough, colors not bright enough... Funnily it tasted better than the one you could get at most supermarkets.
In general you can still find very tasty fruit if you know where to buy it over here, without necessarily overpaying.
I don't want flavorful tomatoes, I just want them to keep burgers and sandwiches from drying out my mouth.
Quote from: Eddie Teach on February 21, 2017, 12:58:08 PM
I don't want flavorful tomatoes, I just want them to keep burgers and sandwiches from drying out my mouth.
Why not both?
Agree that texture is more important than flavor, but the two seem to go hand in hand.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on February 21, 2017, 04:32:35 AM
I wondered about those gigantic strawberries they sell you covered in chocolate and whatever. They have no flavor at all. Same thing with grapes--the ones you buy in the produce aisle are huge and taste like water. The ones they make wine from are tiny and packed with bitter goodness and sugars if picked late.
I was blown away by the December grapes from my Georgian host family's little vineyard. Such tart skins and sweet innards--they tasted like candy. I'm surprised that they're not available in US markets, even as a relatively expensive novelty.
How much is the taste problem due to selective breeding gone wrong, and how much is it due to picking them green and then reddening them up afterwards?
I enjoy my tomatoes in ketchup and marinara form.
Roma bitches.
Quote from: DGuller on February 21, 2017, 09:31:33 PM
How much is the taste problem due to selective breeding gone wrong, and how much is it due to picking them green and then reddening them up afterwards?
I'm not sure it's either of those. It seems like when fruits get huge it's just because they're storing up a lot of water.
tomatoes wouldn't be as popular if they had an intense tomato flavor
Quote from: Eddie Teach on February 21, 2017, 12:58:08 PM
I don't want flavorful tomatoes, I just want them to keep burgers and sandwiches from drying out my mouth.
How does a burger dry out in your mouth?
If they leave off the tomato, the patty is not juicy enough to counteract the bun.
I hate mayo, which can serve the same function.
Quote from: LaCroix on February 22, 2017, 08:56:46 AM
tomatoes wouldn't be as popular if they had an intense tomato flavor
The big beer companies have certainly proved that you get mass appeal with less flavor.
Quote from: Eddie Teach on February 22, 2017, 10:31:05 AM
If they leave off the tomato, the patty is not juicy enough to counteract the bun.
What kind of burgers are you eating that have that kind of sawdust passing as a beef patty?
$$$ > being a foodie
Wanting a good burger doesn't make one a foodie. :huh:
Quote from: Habbaku on February 22, 2017, 10:35:09 AM
Wanting a good burger doesn't make one a foodie. :huh:
no but
buying a calf and raising it yourself on organic grass before you butcher it on your son's thirteenth birthday to make hamburgers for the whole family
does
Quote from: LaCroix on February 22, 2017, 10:37:40 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on February 22, 2017, 10:35:09 AM
Wanting a good burger doesn't make one a foodie. :huh:
no but
buying a calf and raising it yourself on organic grass before you butcher it on your son's thirteenth birthday to make hamburgers for the whole family
does
Really? You have to do this kind of shit even in simple burger discussions?
Quote from: LaCroix on February 22, 2017, 10:34:44 AM
$$$ > being a foodie
The cheapest method is buying a few patties and grilling them yourself. That tends to create a pretty good burger if you know what you are doing.
Quote from: Eddie Teach on February 22, 2017, 10:31:05 AM
If they leave off the tomato, the patty is not juicy enough to counteract the bun.
I hate mayo, which can serve the same function.
If your burger is too dry by itself, you're doing it wrong. Agree with you on the mayo thing, though.
cheapest is buying costco/sam's club ground beef in bulk. true foodies look down on non-grass fed beef. if you don't buy your meat at the butcher, you're not being a true foodie
I'm too cheap for any of that. I get far more satisfaction out of spending less than $200/month household on groceries
Quote from: Valmy on February 22, 2017, 10:41:56 AM
Quote from: LaCroix on February 22, 2017, 10:34:44 AM
$$$ > being a foodie
The cheapest method is buying a few patties and grilling them yourself. That tends to create a pretty good burger if you know what you are doing.
For Valentine's Day I went out and got some nice steaks from a butcher that is usually out of my price range, and also got a couple patties for the kids. The steaks were tasty, but man that burger was on point (had a bite of my son's burger when he wasn't looking). My daughter predictably didn't want her burger so I saved it for lunch the next day.
Next morning was one work-related annoyance after another. The only thing that got me through it was the thought of heating up that burger for lunch. But the cleaning lady got to it before I could. DAMN YOU CONSUELA
Quote from: Habbaku on February 22, 2017, 10:35:09 AM
Wanting a good burger doesn't make one a foodie. :huh:
I wouldn't take the juiciest steak and stick it between two pieces of bread without wanting a drink after each bite.
Quote from: LaCroix on February 22, 2017, 10:52:45 AM
cheapest is buying costco/sam's club ground beef in bulk. true foodies look down on non-grass fed beef. if you don't buy your meat at the butcher, you're not being a true foodie
I'm too cheap for any of that. I get far more satisfaction out of spending less than $200/month household on groceries
Where did this 'foodie' stuff come from?
Anyway I am pretty cheap as well. Fast food is really expensive now for some reason. But that could be because I have kids and stuff.
Quote from: derspiess on February 22, 2017, 10:56:51 AM
But the cleaning lady got to it before I could. DAMN YOU CONSUELA
:o
Well that is an OUTRAGE.
Quote from: Eddie Teach on February 22, 2017, 10:58:07 AM
I wouldn't take the juiciest steak and stick it between two pieces of bread without wanting a drink after each bite.
Why?
Is it a health condition?
Who knows? I've always consumed more liquids than the rest of my family.
I dunk my well done burger into the giant pool of ketchup next to my fries.
And there are pickles only on the burger. And no weird buns, you fucking pretzel bun fags.
Quote from: Ed Anger on February 22, 2017, 12:56:08 PM
I dunk my well done burger into the giant pool of ketchup next to my fries.
And there are pickles only on the burger. And no weird buns, you fucking pretzel bun fags.
OMG DONT DROWN UR FOOD https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfEG15CLTqo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfEG15CLTqo)
I always hated that bastard preaching to me during my Saturday morning cartoons. I'll over-apply condiments if I damned well please.
Damn right.
Salad fags also annoy me. I DONT LIKE SALAD
Quote from: LaCroix on February 22, 2017, 10:37:40 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on February 22, 2017, 10:35:09 AM
Wanting a good burger doesn't make one a foodie. :huh:
no but
buying a calf and raising it yourself on organic grass before you butcher it on your son's thirteenth birthday to make hamburgers for the whole family
does
Do you have to work at it to get this retarded?
I would name it "Katmai"
my posts come naturally habbaku
Quote from: Eddie Teach on February 22, 2017, 11:26:58 AM
Who knows? I've always consumed more liquids than the rest of my family.
Have you been checked for diabetes?
It's like wine. Pay attention to seed/cultivar selection and soil quality. Maybe do some breeding. You'll then have flavour. You don't need molecular science, just simple applied biology.
And if you want cheaper beef, buy from the farm, not the supermarket. Make a farmer friend. Which is probably easier to do in a farm state/province, admittedly.
Quote from: katmai on February 22, 2017, 01:56:59 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on February 22, 2017, 01:32:03 PM
I would name it "Katmai"
:huh:
The steer I am going to buy to make well done steaks from. It will have fabulous marbling.
:lol:
Quote from: dps on February 22, 2017, 05:07:35 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on February 22, 2017, 11:26:58 AM
Who knows? I've always consumed more liquids than the rest of my family.
Have you been checked for diabetes?
:unsure:
Yeah, store bought tomatoes can be nasty but some are better, like some that come with the vines attached. But they still must have been picked early and treated with something else I think they'd spoil too quickly. When I grew tomatoes in my garden they were excellent, including the cherry tomatoes. Usually it's a good idea to let them sit for a day or two to ripen up.
I used to grow corn and would pick an ear or two of it for lunch or dinner. Fresh from the garden was just awesome. So good that putting any butter or salt on it seemed to detract from the taste. Corn in the stores can be good or not so good, depending for one thing on how long it was since it was picked. It loses its sugar content and thus flavor the longer it's off the vine. Different varieties of corn also have differing taste and sweetness. That's why I liked growing it - I could pick the type I wanted to grow and it was so much fun to have a small corn field in the back yard garden. I stopped growing it since once the squirrels discovered it, as it became too much a hassle to trap and get rid of them.
Quote from: katmai on February 22, 2017, 06:42:08 PM
Quote from: dps on February 22, 2017, 05:07:35 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on February 22, 2017, 11:26:58 AM
Who knows? I've always consumed more liquids than the rest of my family.
Have you been checked for diabetes?
:unsure:
Being thirsty a lot is one of the symptoms of diabetes.
I has it.